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ESMB Poster "David Mayo"

Veda said:
<snip> I'm not being a pessimist, just noting that these folks exist.
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Yeah.. I'm not being a pessimist either, but it takes some effort... It's why I am so insistent on making Mr.Rathbun and his 'revolution' suspect.

But now that we're looking at it: See how insidious that Hubbardian conditioning really is? - People actually believing that dianetics and Scientology sessions are needed for their 'spritual' survival!? - And they keep on believing that, when being unsatisfied with being yelled at and bled dry financially!?

Hmm.. What -IS- the spiritual advantage in yelling at people and bleeding them dry financially? - Bleghr! - Pardon my french!

:grouch:
 
I've been an off the lines scientologist for 10 years, with disagreements and waiting for a change in management. It was actually by mistake that I got on the internet and saw the light. And even then, it took me two months to believe what I was reading. Maybe, had I found right away a "Marty" telling me that the "True Scientology" do delivers OT Powerz, I would still think I had a Bridge to do.
 
MostlyLurker said:
I've been an off the lines scientologist for 10 years, with disagreements and waiting for a change in management. It was actually by mistake that I got on the internet and saw the light. And even then, it took me two months to believe what I was reading. Maybe, had I found right away a "Marty" telling me that the "True Scientology" do delivers OT Powerz, I would still think I had a Bridge to do.
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That's why Marty may actually get a few lucrative years out of his business model. He knows the supply of fresh meat is dead and so is Scientology, but there is still a supply of already brainwashed victims which can be milked as long as they believe Miscavige is the problem and not Scientology itself as the window of opportunity is shrinking. The others before him got bogged down focusing of brainwashing the fresh meat and there is no money in conditioning the fresh meat, where as Marty is focusing on those with deep pockets who have already been prepared for maximum financial extraction.
 
Voltaire's Child said:
Yes, Ems and Veda, I do think there're quite a few who'd go back.

The more doctrinaire FreeZoners would, I'm sure.
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I think the only way that might happen, even slightly, is if David Mayo were to be in charge. But then he's been quoted as saying he's no longer a scientologist. :confused2:

Apologies Marty.
 
Emma said:
I agree. I think the number is larger than anyone realises.
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It would depend on the character of any reforms. A few would return if they just got rid of Miscavige. More would return if the Co$ was reorganized to be at least as transparent in their operations as are other religious institutions. Quite a few would demand complete top to bottom restructuring & elimination of hierarchical 'command channels' within the church. Many more won't set foot in the place as long as the Sea Org remains as an internal 'church within the church'. Others would require not only all of the above but additionally full open disclosure concerning everything in scientology.

Not all proposed changes would be equally agreeable among those who still identify as scientologists, hence major political factions & strife would erupt.

How many actually return is very much a function of what would be changed.


Mark A. Baker
 
David Mayo said:
I am very sorry to hear that. She was a good person, whom I've heard was badly treated.

D
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Yes, I was sad to hear about her last few years, too. It was all so sad. Sandy was a good person, I will always be grateful for her for ordering the RPF to release me and let me route out. Sandy Wilhere saved me from a horrible time and I loved her for that and many other things. She was aces to me. :thumbsup:
 
Mark A. Baker said:
It would depend on the character of any reforms. A few would return if they just got rid of Miscavige. More would return if the Co$ was reorganized to be at least as transparent in their operations as are other religious institutions. Quite a few would demand complete top to bottom restructuring & elimination of hierarchical 'command channels' within the church. Many more won't set foot in the place as long as the Sea Org remains as an internal 'church within the church'. Others would require not only all of the above but additionally full open disclosure concerning everything in scientology.

Not all proposed changes would be equally agreeable among those who still identify as scientologists, hence major political factions & strife would erupt.

How many actually return is very much a function of what would be changed.


Mark A. Baker
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That's what I think too. Without the iron fisted control, there would be lots
of internal conflict and disintegration. Some of the "tech" itself would intensify the conflicts IMO, because culties might get very interested in following their own purposes, working on their own "dynamics" and applying "what is true for me is true for me". Then there would be those seeing business opportunities.........

EDIT. There are all sorts of possible scenarios...it is not easy to predict what will happen. The one hitting me right now is NON scientologist astute businessman takes over, is never a scientologist and never pretends to be, is not a brainwasher....makes a successful business by understanding it as a business. That would probably work as a money maker, (without talking about what is being peddled.) But actually this would never happen because guru wannabes and little boys who want to boss others around or display their supreme knowledge will always weddle themselves into boss positions and turn it into a dysfunctional culty outfit.
 
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degraded being said:
That's what I think too. Without the iron fisted control, there would be lots
of internal conflict and disintegration. Some of the "tech" itself would intensify the conflicts IMO, because culties might get very interested in following their own purposes, working on their own "dynamics" and applying "what is true for me is true for me". Then there would be those seeing business opportunities.........
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sounds like yet another version of the inmates running the prison. ;)
 
degraded being said:
That's what I think too. Without the iron fisted control, there would be lots of internal conflict and disintegration. Some of the "tech" itself would intensify the conflicts IMO, because culties might get very interested in following their own purposes, working on their own "dynamics" and applying "what is true for me is true for me". Then there would be those seeing business opportunities.........
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:yes: Not surprisingly I expect that you would see a lot of the same battles as occur frequently among freezoners. Especially when it comes to the settling of old scores. :eyeroll:

There actually was a 'logical reason' that Hubbard resorted to draconian methods to control the Co$. It wasn't simply 'insanity', although a degree of insanity lay beneath it. The only way to control free beings is through the application of force, either direct or indirect. The freer the being the more force required.

The most effective control occurs when a being is bound to another's intention. This only occurs when the being is no longer free in himself but is in some degree or fashion 'the valence of another'. Getting the person into such a state takes effort, or force.

Left to their own devices free beings behave freely. To the extent that scientology tech serves a useful function it frees beings. In doing this recognition and identification of instances of the adoption of another's intention rather than one's own, i.e. 'the splitting of valences', is a common occurrence. That directly counteracts attempts at control, thus it must not be allowed to interfere with the ongoing effort to supplant the individual's own intention.

Ergo, in order to control beings experiencing greater degrees of freedom due to their increasing spiritual freedom, increasingly greater degrees of force are required in order to bind them in intent. The Sea Org in its various permutations served that purpose, and served it well. It continues to do so to the present day.

The mistake was not in the application of force, the mistake was in the intent to control free beings.

The Remedy: correct identification of intent.


Mark A. Baker
 
Julie Mayo said:
You can't tell all the good that someone did, ...

Looking back over the years, I have observed the following: In incredibly tough situations, and no matter the current policy, circumstances or duress involved, some people managed to retain their intelligence and compassion. No matter what pressure from above, the person tried to do their best and help, not harm, those under them or within their scope of influence. They managed to interpret policy or tech in a helpful, not harmful, manner.
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Isn't that the best we can ask for? No matter what the context or venue? In other words: Do the best you can based on the data you have available. Be kind to one another.

Also, bring chocolate.

There, I think that takes care of everything.
 
Everything

asteroid said:
Isn't that the best we can ask for? No matter what the context or venue? In other words: Do the best you can based on the data you have available. Be kind to one another.

Also, bring chocolate.

There, I think that takes care of everything.
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Perhaps add ice cream, then I think we have it.:)
 
Purple Rain

Purple Rain said:
I have no time for any version of Scientology, but I would looooove David Mayo's autograph just because he ticks them off so flipping much! If they were a fraction as annoyed with me I would consider my whole life to have been worthwhile.
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Could I give you some tips? Please?

D
 
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