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Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox

MissWog said:
Sorry Veda.. This delusional woman is saying it just like you have to do in any college of medicine because you are responsible for people's lives. I keep hearing this over and over again.. You may know what they are saying but that is NOT what she and these FreeZone centers with their purifs and drug rehabs are doing. I call bullshit.. Over inflating their credentials!
Compare it to getting your Phd in Theology if that is the case.. This is sneaky wanna be better than they are. You wanna be a doctor? Go to med school and stop guessing how hard med school is. They do not know! Hubbard wrote this.. HUBBARD! A man who knew what about medicine?
Respectfully, it is the comparison that I take issue with. I see it is calculated.
they could pick ANY higher education but they choose medicine. Not an MBA, Not a JD..they pick MD. All higher education has internships.. They pick medicine for a reason.

Makes me wonder how many people have died at these centers in the FreeZone that offer Drug Rehab too. It's the same program as Narconon from what I see.

Sorry to be a bitch about this..but it scares me because people die.

Are they sticking 6yr old children in Saunas too??
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Well, I can tell you that any suggestion that the Class VIII course was the equivalent of a PhD is complete bullshit.

You see, I was given the task by Hubbard of designing the new Class VIII HOTA (Hubbard OT Auditor) Course. Otto Roos had tried to work something out and it was taken off him and given to me. I took a look at it, considered it was a "HAT DUMP" by Hubbard and passed it back to him. He thanked me and said he had "developed some exciting tech developments" which would form the basis of the new course.

Dart
 
Claire Swazey said:
Are you referring to Aida as a delusional woman? If so...

she IS a contributor here.

Please read and understand the following: Announcement of Cessation of Hostilities - a Truce and Moratorium on Personal Attacks.
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Are counselors responsible for the lives of their patients? I'm not talking doctors.

Are spiritual, psychological or other types of counselors responsible for the lives of the people they help.

The way I see it, there are two things that make her similar to a doctor. And she mentioned those two and nothing else. Having the responsibility for the lives of people she helps. Taking a long time to train on the materials she studied to do the counseling.

I'm not really trying to push your buttons here. Just to show you how I view what I just saw.

I am not wanting this to be anything. If she were imagining herself as a medical healer, I'm totally willing to call her on it.
 
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Aida's a pretty cool lady. I think you'd like her, Miss W. (She posts as Diana Class 8). One of the things about her that I think is great is that she has posted a lot of insider information about CofS, under the name Lagniappe. She's done a lot to help the critic's scene. But she does have her own ideological views and, well, you know how that is. We don't all agree on those sorts of things. Nor should we! We're all individuals.
 
2briancox said:
Grade 1. I did share that in an earlier post.
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2briancox said:
-snip-

So here's a recent experience of mine (doing Grade 1, which addresses a persons ability to help and confront problems). The counseling questions were pretty simple ... "How could you help ###?"... followed by "How could you not help ###?" You basically run those over and over until you find your own truth on that subject (I'm simplifying here for convenience). And I suddenly recalled the time when I had made the decision that that person (not telling who, that's private :) was not worthy of my help. And I was able to let go of a lot of negative emotion tied up in that person.

So since auditing (counseling) my attitude has improved on many aspects of my life... too numerous for all to be listed. But that has seriously improved my happiness permanently.

-snip-
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Yes, I noticed that. Just wasn't sure what was meant by "recent."

It's good that you're at Grade One.

The processes on that level, "Help" and then "Problems," are interesting to examine in their original form in the original 1950s writings, before they were assembled by a tech aide (don't recall his name off hand) in the 1960s as part of the organizing of old processes into Grade levels. Someone, I think in Washington DC Org in the 1950s, came up with "Help" as an item to process, and it proved to be quite interesting.

However, the nature of auditing changes as one moves into the confidential part of the Grade Chart. Lower Grades primarily ask you. The OT levels - especially OT 2 and OT 3 - primarily tell you.

Some people think the "telling" part is a violation of the Auditor's Code.
 
2briancox said:
Are counselors responsible for the lives of their patients? I'm not talking doctors.

Are spiritual, psychological or other types of counselors responsible for the lives of the people they help.

They easy I see it, there are two things that make her similar to a doctor. And she mentioned those two and nothing else. Having the responsibility for the lives of people she helps. Taking a long time to train on the materials she studied to do the counseling.

I'm not really trying to push your buttons here. Just to show you how I view what I just saw.

I am not wanting this to be anything. If she were imagining herself as a medical healer, I'm totally willing to call her on it.
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To a point, yes, they are. But there's also free will and the YMMV factor. Take something different- like a psychology based therapist, a PHD or even one with just an MSW or something. They have responsibility but in the end, the patient will do what he wants to do or feels driven to do. At some point, the therapist's responsibility ends. But there is some.

Aida does non CofS auditing and to me, that puts her in the category of something akin to a New Age or other healer/practitioner since, of course, Scientology and Dianetics aren't accredited. I do not mean that as a poke against Aida or anyone else in the FZ. This is more my way of quantifying and classifying things as I see them.


And no problem-o. I like your candor.
 
Lone Star said:
She hasn't broken the rules. Calling someone delusional isn't enough to be considered a personal attack.
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I'll go with it.. It was an unessary adjective on my part. My point should be better made without cussing and anger. But thank you Lone Star :yes:
.
 
Veda said:
Yes, I noticed that. Just wasn't sure what was meant by "recent."

It's good that you're at Grade One.

The processes on that level, "Help" and then "Problems," are interesting to examine in their original form in the original 1950s writings, before they were assembled by a tech aide (don't recall his name off hand) in the 1960s as part of the organizing of old processes into Grade levels. Someone, I think in Washington DC Org in the 1950s, came up with "Help" as an item to process, and it proved to be quite interesting.

However, the nature of auditing changes as one moves into the confidential part of the Grade Chart. Lower Grades primarily ask you. The OT levels - especially OT 2 and OT 3 - primarily tell you.

Some people think the "telling" part is a violation of the Auditor's Code.
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There's some telling on grade 0. Also there's been some telling on arc sw. But interest was always checked first. And those are very light of course. I can see how that may not be the case on OT levels.

And I'll always be open to walking away when I don't agree to do something (see earlier posts).
 
Claire Swazey said:
Aida's a pretty cool lady. I think you'd like her, Miss W. (She posts as Diana Class 8). One of the things about her that I think is great is that she has posted a lot of insider information about CofS, under the name Lagniappe. She's done a lot to help the critic's scene. But she does have her own ideological views and, well, you know how that is. We don't all agree on those sorts of things. Nor should we! We're all individuals.
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You are right and I do have a lot of respect for her videos and the way she went to Hemet.
 
just a personal anecdote

Husband retired recently. I shared that with you folks. One of the things he's interested in doing, possibly, is doing a bunch of Free Zone stuff. I'm supportive of this. However, if he later decided not to do it, I'd support that. I just would like him to be happy.

But I do not believe for one second that there'd be anything wrong with his hooking up with the FZ people in our area and continuing his studies and auditing, if he opts to do so.

If Aida lived near us (which is not the case) we'd be honored to have dealings with her and would trust her.

I think, though, that we can all agree that it's nice to be out of the cult and not made to do or not do anything. I swear, they used to use auditing and the promise of auditing as a real carrot and stick thing and there was emotional blackmail, too.
 
2briancox said:
There's some telling on grade 0. Also there's been some telling on arc sw. But interest was always checked first. And those are very light of course. I can see how that may not be the case on OT levels.

And I'll always be open to walking away when I don't agree to do something (see earlier posts).
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Uh, er, um Brian? Apparently you haven't read the 'fine print' in the ESMB by-laws? Namely (section 2b paragraph 7) reads:

"We" will be telling 'you', when you can, and when you cannot, walk away from anything."

Lol. Just kidding (and having a little fun, celebrating Freedom!)

Mojo
 
Re: just a personal anecdote

Claire Swazey said:
Husband retired recently. I shared that with you folks. One of the things he's interested in doing, possibly, is doing a bunch of Free Zone stuff. I'm supportive of this. However, if he later decided not to do it, I'd support that. I just would like him to be happy.

But I do not believe for one second that there'd be anything wrong with his hooking up with the FZ people in our area and continuing his studies and auditing, if he opts to do so.

If Aida lived near us (which is not the case) we'd be honored to have dealings with her and would trust her.

I think, though, that we can all agree that it's nice to be out of the cult and not made to do or not do anything. I swear, they used to use auditing and the promise of auditing as a real carrot and stick thing and there was emotional blackmail, too.
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Woops! Dang phone.
 
MissWog said:
I'll go with it.. It was an unessary adjective on my part. My point should be better made without cussing and anger. But thank you Lone Star :yes:
.
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Don't worry about the cussing and anger. Claire didn't even care about that. In fact she used to be a prolific and creative cusser. I miss that. Anyway, it's the word 'delusional' that wrinkled her panties. :wink2: So I guess just avoid that word and all will be fine.

:lol:
 
Re: just a personal anecdote

Claire Swazey said:
Husband retired recently. I shared that with you folks. One of the things he's interested in doing, possibly, is doing a bunch of Free Zone stuff. I'm supportive of this. However, if he later decided not to do it, I'd support that. I just would like him to be happy.

But I do not believe for one second that there'd be anything wrong with his hooking up with the FZ people in our area and continuing his studies and auditing, if he opts to do so.

If Aida lived near us (which is not the case) we'd be honored to have dealings with her and would trust her.

I think, though, that we can all agree that it's nice to be out of the cult and not made to do or not do anything. I swear, they used to use auditing and the promise of auditing as a real carrot and stick thing and there was emotional blackmail, too.
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=) Given my experience, that makes me very happy for him.

You'll both be surprised how different it is with no cult around. IMHO

There is a yahoo user group called FreeZoneOrg that has a really fun email list I'm on. A word of warning, don't expect a tightly controlled group. People run their groups how they want out here. =)
 
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Mojo said:
Uh, er, um Brian? Apparently you haven't read the 'fine print' in the ESMB by-laws? Namely (section 2b paragraph 7) reads:

"We" will be telling 'you', when you can, and when you cannot, walk away from anything."

Lol. Just kidding (and having a little fun, celebrating Freedom!)

Mojo
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=) lol. Literally =D
 
2briancox said:
Notice she said people's lives? Not their bodies.

The history of religious counselors being responsible for the spiritual well being of their flock has a REALLY long history. Much longer than the history of the invention of Psychology. Doctors, being responsible for a person's body, are also responsible for a person's life. Naturally.

But that does not mean that they are exclusively responsible for a person's life.

There is something about the use of the word Drug Rehab in the Freezone that you misunderstand. It's not about getting a person to handle drug addiction that is going on in present time. But there is a very safe (ie. when done right under the care of a doctor, as is required) treatment program that people go through in Scientology to help sweat out drugs they had done previously that are stopping current spiritual gain. I've done it. And it was very beneficial. I never recall feeling so good physically as I did after that.

Now in the Cult...that treatment is WAAAY over given. Anyone who once smoked pot is usually forced to buy it. But that's their MO.

Out here...it's only done when it is REALLY a problem. And NOT during ongoing drug use or immediately after stopping drug use.
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When it is decided that it will be done, is it done per the bulletins written by Hubbard, re; vitamins, oil (is that still done?) niacin in the amounts prescribed by Hubbard. And, is it REALLY done under medical supervsion? REALLY? And if it is; is it done only using a Scientologist doctor?
 
I did mine in Champaign IL only after receiving a full physical and the doctor said I shouldn't have to be seen again during. My mom did hers also in the same area, though she had to be checked up on a few labs weekly. The thing is, my mom had a very insignificant drug history. The FreeZone CS I've talked to has said it really wasn't intended for everyone. Only those with significant drug history.

Anyway, Champaign, IL doesn't have any Scientology doctors.
 
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