For the Rathbun "Believers"

[AnonyMary]

Sorry but Marty aint no real man in my book, not yet anyway. While I appreciate him speaking up about the abuses, I'm still waiting for Marty to take responsibilityfor his own acts, his own sins (or "overts and omissions" as a scientologist would say) and apologize for attacking and hurting others ( mentally, physically, and otherwise.) Many of those fair gamed by him and his office have contributed to helping thousands and thousands get the facts about scientology, often at great personal, financial and spiritual expense. So, Yes.

It takes a real man to admit his mistakes and then try to make things right.

and I'm while I wait.

I'm giving Rinder a break because he is not pointing the finger in such an arrogant fashion. We have not been made privy to what he thinks about Scientology except to say that he was a victim of Mark Rathbun & DM . It's true. That is what he's answered to so far. No natter. Just direct comments made to the media questions. He may turn out to be a better man for having contemplated the situation and made up with some apologies before speaking up in a broad fashion. I sure hope so.

 

[everfree]

Hey, I used the term "Marty's Group" to quote you. I actually don't understand Marty's group at all, as I've said on many other posts prior to now. I also don't put all in that 'group' in the same box - I read what they post on his blog, and it's clear that there is diversity among them, just as there is here on ESMB.

OK, sorry for misunderstanding.

I wasn't in the SO. I don't have "BPC" on any INT Execs for anything they've done in the past. I don't 'hate' anybody, and as strange as it seems to some, I don't regret my time in Scn. It would probably be different if I was in the SO, but besides a bit here and there, I didn't cop too much 'personally'....well, at least not as much as many did and not as much as many still are.

Let me make sure you understand - I'm not saying you do or don't have "BPC" on anything, to me the term is meaningless. I'm saying that the martyzone would "understand" you that way, and that it's not really an understanding.

He's in a position where he doesn't need to use baby steps. He's in a position where he could blow it out of the water. By doing so, thousands of people could start to get their lives back, and those who'd want to pursue Scn tech as a self help thing would be free to do so.

Yes, and I'm eagerly awaiting him doing so. I hope.

Dan Koon isn't putting himself in the limelight giving a false picture (not that I've seen anyway), nor promoting an organization that he knows to be as one which is destructive.

He posts over their as Joe Howard and has written many articles that form the backbone of what the martyzone says they're trying to accomplish.

This is where we couldn't/wouldn't agree - There should never have been a CofS. The CofS was and has always been a cloak to hide behind and one which protects a machine that is a con and is harmful. While the CofS and the SO exists, so will the abuses.

No, I agree fully that there should have never have been a CofS, it was a slave factory. But since it does exist, I'm not so naive to think CofS and Scientology are just going to disappear. Scientology will continue to exist in some form - too many people have too much of themselves invested in it for that. I would like whatever form that it takes to be honest and not abusive, that's all.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Hmmm. It should be very obvious that for whatever reasons critics are very
happy to attack Marty cos he still supports tech.

alas Terril I know that FZers and Scientologists like to comfort themselves with the delusion that they get "attacked" because they support "the tech" but the truth is that the ones that do get attacked are attacked for a much simpler reason.

I dislike Marty and what he does because he has shown himself to be a cowardly tosspot.

I dont attack you. So belief in the tech has nothing to do with it. Its just the character of the person. You have it, Rathbun does not.

 

[AnonyMary]

That is not the reason, Terril. And besides, it's not about Marty or what he believes in ...... it's about what he is doing and what he is 'protecting'.

 

[flashgordon]

Wouldn't it be best to spend our time focusing on David Miscavige's "sins" instead of the people who came out against him and made us aware of his "sins"? Isn't that the wrong subject matter?

Lets not forget where the real problems exist here and it's not with Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and the others who have left and spoke out.

Now Tommy Davis, that is exactly what he would want you and I to focus on, all the unpleasant things Marty, Mike and all the others have done.

You see, the idea is this: If the church of scientology can make nothing out of Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and all the others who have come out against DM, they have simultaneously made nothing out of their allegations. Do you see what I mean?

 

[flashgordon]

Hmmm. It should be very obvious that for whatever reasons critics are very
happy to attack Marty cos he still supports tech.

What message does attacking high level scientologists like Marty Rathbun who left the church and spoke out against it and DM send to those scientologists who are still in and who see that things are wrong in the church but who haven't come out yet?

What message does that send to them? and who's sending the message?

Is that a message a real critic sends or is that the message the church wants to send to it's members still in? Maybe these so-called critics attacking Marty aren't really critics at all but...........

 

[everfree]

Wouldn't it be best to spend our time focusing on David Miscavige's "sins" instead of the people who came out against him and made us aware of his "sins"? Isn't that the wrong subject matter?

We were all quite aware of all of the sins that Marty has spoken about, there has been nothing new that I can think of.

Lets not forget where the real problems exist here and it's not with Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and the others who have left and spoke out.

But they were a major part of the problem.

Now Tommy Davis, that is exactly what he would want you and I to focus on, all the unpleasant things Marty, Mike and all the others have done.

That's very true. Like Heber before him, he's the goat tied up near the tiger's lair to focus the attention of the tiger on something other than the hunter.

You see, the idea is this: If the church of scientology can make nothing out of Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and all the others who have come out against DM, they have simultaneously made nothing out of their allegations. Do you see what I mean?

Marty and Rinder can avoid that by coming clean, and in any case it won't "make nothing of" their allegations: Headley et al have been speaking out against DM's abuses for a long time.

 

[flashgordon]

Marty and Rinder can avoid that by coming clean, and in any case it won't "make nothing of" their allegations: Headley et al have been speaking out against DM's abuses for a long time.

Yes and they have been steady trying to make nothing out of Headley also. What's marty suposed to do, tell the world every thing he's ever done in his life? That sounds like a scientology confession you want. That would only serve to HURT his credability.

Why do we keep getting of the subject of David Miscavige and all he's done and may still be doing as we speak?

What about David Miscavige and the church coming clean?

Why don't we focus on that subject instead of those who spoke out against them?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

alas Terril I know that FZers and Scientologists like to comfort themselves with the delusion that they get "attacked" because they support "the tech" but the truth is that the ones that do get attacked are attacked for a much simpler reason.

I dislike Marty and what he does because he has shown himself to be a cowardly tosspot.

I dont attack you. So belief in the tech has nothing to do with it. Its just the character of the person. You have it, Rathbun does not.

You don't attack Freezoners- that's true.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

::raises hand::

I was a douchebag who screwed people over when I was in.

Now, the number of people I screwed over was relatively small, not being a person of great influence, but it still did happen.

There's one I struggle with feeling guilty about, actually.

What gets me is that so many of us had done things in CofS we're not proud of yet so many people here get so mad at others for what they've done. People who've run roughshod over their juniors, coerced abortions- turn around and point fingers at others.

I think Marty probably still has blinders on but I just don't think one spends many years in a cult- doing the things he did and seeing what he saw and experiencing what he experienced- and comes around to a completely responsible non blinkered way of thinking right away. I think it can take years. In the case of some people I know- it never happens.

 

[Carmel]

What message does attacking high level scientologists like Marty Rathbun who left the church and spoke out against it and DM send to those scientologists who are still in and who see that things are wrong in the church but who haven't come out yet?

What message does that send to them? and who's sending the message?

Is that a message a real critic sends or is that the message the church wants to send to it's members still in? Maybe these so-called critics attacking Marty aren't really critics at all but...........

It's not a wonder that the CofS sends in trolls to protect and defend Marty and/or what Marty is doing - After all, Marty IS protecting the "church".

 

[everfree]

Yes and they have been steady trying to make nothing out of Headley also.

Who is this "they" of whom you speak? Surely not the critics, I can't recall a critic being anything but thankful for Headley exposing the abuses at Int.

What's marty suposed to do, tell the world every thing he's ever done in his life? That sounds like a scientology confession you want. That would only serve to HURT his credability.

Not at all. Tell where the bodies are buried, tell where the bank accounts are now and what the numbers are and how the funds got funneled there. Yes, tell any illegal stuff he was involved in - cop a plea deal if necessary to bring DM down. Any other Lisa McPhersons he covered up.

If it hurts his credibility, well too bad. But I don't think it will hurt his credibility as much as you think because we already know that stuff exists but he helped screw over a lot of people and I - and many others - think he owes those people everything he can do to prevent that sort of stuff from happening more. It's his lack of doing so that is hurting his credibility right now.

Why do we keep getting of the subject of David Miscavige and all he's done and may still be doing as we speak?

What about David Miscavige and the church coming clean?

That would be great! But there's little hope of DM ever coming clean. On the other hand Marty really could. He's perhaps started to, and I highly appreciate that, but it seems there are further steps to take. He could make a huge difference. So could Rinder.

 

[flashgordon]

It's not a wonder that the CofS sends in trolls to protect and defend Marty and/or what Marty is doing - After all, Marty IS protecting the "church".

So let me get his right.

Your saying that Marty Rathbun's coming out and speaking against David Miscaviges to the St. Petersburg time and abc news about DM's mental and physical abuse and the church of scientology is being done by the church of scientology themselves?? and they are now sending people to protect him?

Do you realize how utterly insane that sounds?

If the CofS was behind Marty Rathbun and vice versa, wouldn't he have not have come out at all?

If Marty Rathbun is protecting the church then why did Tommy Davis attack him the way he did on TV?

 

[Mick Wenlock]

everfree - you are being trolled by this flashgordon. Seriously - dont bother feeding it, it will just hang around and clutter up the place.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

So let me get his right.

Your saying that Marty Rathbun's coming out and speaking against David Miscaviges to the St. Petersburg time and abc news about DM's mental and physical abuse and the church of scientology is being done by the church of scientology themselves?? and they are now sending people to protect him?

Do you realize how utterly insane that sounds?

If the CofS was behind Marty Rathbun and vice versa, wouldn't he have not have come out at all?

If Marty Rathbun is protecting the church then why did Tommy Davis attack him the way he did on TV?

"you say tomato, I say tomahto" ... "you say insane, I say Scientology"

 

[everfree]

everfree - you are being trolled by this flashgordon. Seriously - dont bother feeding it, it will just hang around and clutter up the place.

Quite possibly, but he's saying things that I'm quite sure are being bandied about in the martyzone so to me there is value in addressing them.

 

[Carmel]

So let me get his right.

Your saying that Marty Rathbun's coming out and speaking against David Miscaviges to the St. Petersburg time and abc news about DM's mental and physical abuse and the church of scientology is being done by the church of scientology themselves?? and they are now sending people to protect him?

No I'm not, and if you were free to read this board like most of the rest of us, you'd know that.

Do you realize how utterly insane that sounds?

Yep, and you said it mate, I didn't.

If the CofS was behind Marty Rathbun and vice versa, wouldn't he have not have come out at all?

If Marty Rathbun is protecting the church then why did Tommy Davis attack him the way he did on TV?

Straw man argument, so I won't go there.

 

[Vinaire]

I obviously can't say what Alanzo is attempting to bring about with any such specificity.

For myself, what I would like is something like this: in the same way that you believe you understand Marty's group, they I'm sure feel they understand you - dramatizing, stuck in an incident with lots of "bypassed charge" so most anything you say can be ignored with impunity.

It would be nice if they were able to look at criticism of the CofS and Scientology and at least ponder the validity of it with the possibility of correcting it. And it would be nice if critics could allow the possibility that what Marty is doing could if nothing else be a step towards making CofS less abusive. Baby steps, maybe, but still.

It's not just Marty you know. There are other people like Dan Koon involved, who I've never heard anyone say anything bad about.

I suspect both groups could have greater understanding, and while I don't think total acceptance could ever happen, I think that at least enough understanding to avoid major conflicts could eventually go a long ways towards some positive changes made in CofS, like the demise of DM, maybe even the dissolution of CofS as an entity in favor of a grass roots system, which would make it much more difficult for an abusive horror to group up around Scientology again.

Or not, but at least with some understanding between critics and the martyzone there's a greater chance of it, I think.

All Scientology materials should be officially put in public domain.

Let them survive on their own.

.

 

[flashgordon]

One of OSA's main goals is to get their enemies to attack each other. They do this with indenty confusion.

Now there appears to be osa operatives who are spinning the idea around the Internet that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder and the others who spoke out against DM are the bad guys and are actually still working with the church. This is totally crazy. This is typical OSA mind games. I've seen this before in the past.

Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder and the others are now on the critics side. Let not get this overcomplicated. Don't attack those on your side. It only serves the church for us to attack Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder which is the very reason some OSA operative thought up that crazy idea to begin with.

The focus needs to be on the church, it's staff members and DM, those are the ones that need correction in my opinion.

 

[flashgordon]

It's not a wonder that the CofS sends in trolls to protect and defend Marty and/or what Marty is doing - After all, Marty IS protecting the "church".

Are you saying that the church of scientology is behind Marty Rathbun's speaking out against David Miscavige to the St. Petersburg Times and to ABC news?

Are you saying that Marty Rathbun is protecting the church of scientology?