PirateAndBum
Gold Meritorious Patron
That is blatantly false statement. I'll give you one example that makes your staement a lie: Rinder has told of his assault and battery by DM. THAT is a crime.
Mike "I'm All About the Crimes" Rinder
- Thread starter Alanzo
- Start date
That is blatantly false statement. I'll give you one example that makes your staement a lie: Rinder has told of his assault and battery by DM. THAT is a crime.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
You call it a lie. Yet you have no evidence that it is a lie.
All you have is a claim by the guy who ran OSA for DM for 22 years.
You believe him.
I don't.
Can you point to any criminal act that Mike Rinder has revealed in the last 12 years that would put DM or any officer of the Church of Scientology into criminal jeopardy? No?
How about on 3 seasons of a TV show?
Why can't you?
If your hero Mike Rinder is all about the crimes - WHERE ARE THEY?
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
That is something that can not be prosecuted. That is something that is way over the statue of limitations - even at the time he revealed it. That is something that would never put DM or any officer of the Church of Scientology into criminal jeopardy.
Can you see the difference?
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
You assert Mike Rinder has not revealed a crime as if it's factual when you really don't know (which you acknowledged).
I call it a lie because it IS a lie.
That's yet another lie about him running OSA for 22 years you keep stating over and over.
I can point to evidence that the FBI instructed those who were interviewed as concerns their investigation into Scientology not to say a word publicly about the investigation. Have you seen that?
Published in today's Tampa Bay Times:
Scientology policy enabled years of child sexual abuse, lawsuit says
The third lawsuit filed against Scientology and leader David Miscavige in three months accuses the church of sexual battery, racketeering and conspiracy
https://www.tampabay.com/news/clear...led-years-of-child-sexual-abuse-lawsuit-says/
Excerpt:
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TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
Readers need to understand that deliberate control over Scientologist's behavior through coercion and indoctrination long after they leave staff or Scientology in order to run out the clock on statute of limitations is a strategic calculation established by decades of experience.
EDIT: I would also point out that by the time people leave they are often under a lot of stress and have depleted assets and resources that are needed to launch a protracted legal case against the corporation. It can take several years to reestablish a life outside of Scientology, a place to live, a job, savings, paying off debt, deferred medical care, to rebuild broken relationships, get non-Scientology based education, etc.
https://tonyortega.org/2013/03/20/s...onfidential-files-in-forced-abortion-lawsuit/
(snip)
Over at his blog Scott will go into this in more detail, but he tells us the church’s argument centers around asserting priest-penitent privilege when the penitent (Laura) has already waived that protection. In other words, if Laura wants her folders entered as evidence, then who is Scientology protecting by keeping them under wraps?
DeCrescenzo tells us that she’s very encouraged by the judge putting his foot down and ordering Scientology to turn over the folders.
“I think there is enough evidence in there to confirm the bazillion hours of brainwashing that occurred, starting at a very young age. That, hopefully, would negate any statute of limitations issue,” she says. But after all this time, she finds it hard to believe that the church will actually comply and turn over the evidence.
Three times in the last year, Scientology has caved and ponied up large amounts to make potentially embarrassing court cases go away. Could this order to produce evidence result in a similar collapse?
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Out Effix
Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer
Alanzo: When it quacks like a duck...looks like a duck and behaves like a duck. It's a duck.
How could you work when you spend all day attacking critics of Scientology. Every.Single.Day!
Mike Rinder and Leah Remini are the #1 enemy of David Misavige and Scientology. Who do you attack day in and day out? Mike Rinder and Leah Remini.
Your behavior gives you away. It is obvious.
You create no value for people leaving Scientology and need help. You create absolutely no value for the ex community who are trying to make sense of Scientology to put the pieces of their lives back together again. You spread confusion. You go from blog to blog attacking very courageous people who risk their lives exposing Scientology and you attack them.
What does your activities attacking Critic's of Scientology create value for? OSA - and no one else.
Just because you have thrown in a little confusion about blaming Miscavige and his twin sister for someone's death, does not justify your overall behavior. You are trying to throw us off your scent of being busted. That IS what OSA does. I know too because I have a relative who was OSA and has shared with me all of the tactics OSA uses. They checked you out and have concluded you are working for the cult of Scientology and are on the pay roll of OSA.
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koki
Silver Meritorious Patron
Thank you.
Question for Alanzo: what is your favourite flat earth claimers board and what is your nick there?
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Geese aren't ducks. Duckbill Platypuses aren't ducks. But they quack, look, and behave like ducks.
This is typical among Exes, but very stupid reasoning for how to spot an OSA Agent.
I work from home. I set my own schedule. And I have since I left Scientology 20 years ago.
Unlike you, I learned in getting out of Scientology that no one should be above criticism. And so when I see Leah and Mike lying about Scientologists believing in pedophilia (when Mike Rinder, as head of OSA, was the one to cover up ANY sex crimes in Scientology for DM) I don't shut up about that. Leaving Scientology taught me that I had to have the social courage to NOT shut up about these things.
And so I don't shut up about them.
I've also praised Mike Rinder and Leah Remini, as well. But you aren't focusing on any of that because you WANT to believe I am an OSA Agent. It is a way for you to reduce the discomfort you feel when your beliefs are challenged.
Not true. I get people thanking me for providing ideas that help them make their way out of the toxic bullshit in both Scientology and Anti-Scientology all the time. There are intelligent people who have been involved in Scientology and gotten out of it who reject the impotent and hysterical crap that goes for Scientology criticism these days.
I've been out for 20 years and I have not seen one criminal indictment on the Church of Scientology in all that time. David Miscavige is still in power, still doing whatever he wants to Scientologists.
I've seen 3 seasons of a TV show, which Mike Rinder starred in and produced, call for a federal investigation and an IRS tax review - and they did not even come close to achieving it. I've said why they haven't achieved it.
And I will continue to.
Because, unlike you, I believe that Marty Mike and Dave have committed specific criminal acts for which they can still be indicted, and I haven't been fooled by Mike Rinder's moral hand-waiving and distraction techniques.
You, along with too many others, have been fooled by that.
Oh well then! An un-named anonymous former OSA Agent spouting a QUI BONO theory! Always the most truthful and intelligent of hypotheses! Of all the reasoning you have presented that proves I'm an OSA agent - this is by far the most convincing!
Here's the problem: You are speaking as if you KNOW.
You said:
You never answered the question I asked you about this.
Why would you think I'm desperate for money?
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Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Mike Rinder has known all along that the power of criminal indictments far exceeds civil torts. And yet, after 12 years of being out and three seasons of a TV show - he has never once mentioned this, until last month:
- David Miscavige: End Game
Here Rinder gives the full history of the knowing fear Hubbard had for criminal prosecution vs civil torts, and even exposes his knowledge of the "ALL CLEAR UNIT" which was designed to clear Hubbard of criminal prosecution. Mike Rinder has known about this the whole time, especially as the head of OSA for DM for 22 years. He cut his teeth on this knowledge - and when they gained tax exemption, he knew they would be able to eat any lawsuits for lunch. Those were not a problem.
The problem was always criminal indictments. Even billionaires like Jeffrey Epstein had a problem with those.
Yet in the 12 years since he's been out, with access to blogs and journalists and even a TV show that whole time, why has Mike Rinder never mentioned this before?
"Hubbard was paranoid about being served and vanished in order to “finish his research.” This was the public shore story. The story at the top was that he HAD to vanish so he could not be served with a subpoena in either a civil or criminal matter. Those around him were told in no uncertain terms that it was their job to get an “All Clear” for him so he could return to “normal” life running scientology as he had been doing for many years (despite what was represented to the IRS). This is how Miscavige rose to prominence in scientology. As the “Action Chief CMO Int” he was supposed to run the “Sea Org Missions” (using Hubbard’s “Mission Tech”) that would accomplish this objective of making it safe for Hubbard. He quickly assumed the invented title of “Special Project Ops” to run those Missions and then formed “Special Unit” which was sort of one big “Mission” that encompassed the “All Clear Unit”. This then morphed into Hubbard’s personal “Literary Agency” (ASI – Author Services Inc) and Miscavige took over that with the key people who had been in Special Unit including Norman Starkey, Terri Gamboa, Lyman Spurlock, Greg Wilhere and Marty Rathbun. Once Hubbard died Miscavige shifted over to assume control of RTC. The rest, as they say, is history.'
"Miscavige now confronts a similar dilemma to Hubbard. He knows that if he is dragged into one suit he will be dragged into many more. And his activities and lies will unravel quickly.'
"Like Hubbard he has to avoid courtrooms at all costs.'
"But sooner or later, this also means avoiding public appearances. Until there was a lawsuit naming him, he had some assurance that there could be no surprise. Nevertheless, the security for the few appearances he has been making (exclusively at events and ribbon cuttings in the last few years) is high. Lots of hired PI’s and off-duty law enforcement to keep anyone unknown away. Screened entrances and exits. Photo ops only with screened dignitaries and no “mingling” with the riff-raff.'
"This scenario is still a relatively safe environment to prevent civil service. But it would not prevent law enforcement from serving him. If they know where he is going to be, there is no PI that can prevent a Federal Marshall, local law enforcement or the FBI from conducting their business in order to serve him. They can certainly sound the alarm and the COB can try to slip out a back door, but it’s not likely he would be able to pull that up."
- David Miscavige: End Game
Here Rinder gives the full history of the knowing fear Hubbard had for criminal prosecution vs civil torts, and even exposes his knowledge of the "ALL CLEAR UNIT" which was designed to clear Hubbard of criminal prosecution. Mike Rinder has known about this the whole time, especially as the head of OSA for DM for 22 years. He cut his teeth on this knowledge - and when they gained tax exemption, he knew they would be able to eat any lawsuits for lunch. Those were not a problem.
The problem was always criminal indictments. Even billionaires like Jeffrey Epstein had a problem with those.
Yet in the 12 years since he's been out, with access to blogs and journalists and even a TV show that whole time, why has Mike Rinder never mentioned this before?
TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
If it quacks, looks and behaves like OSA in might not be OSA - but it still looks and behaves like OSA.
I think there is something that needs clarification here. OSA and it's predecessor, The Guardian's Office, isn't just a card carrying organization with clearly defined lines. It has a very old and complicated history with relationships that are equally old and complicated. People go off staff but still retain family and friend relationships with people who are still on staff, they may work in WISE or some other front group, and they may continue to volunteer and conduct their own freelance devotion doctrine based type ops or behavior. They don't need to be paid. This doesn't even need to be known or sanctioned by OSA. There are other ways of being remunerated like commendations sent to their ethics folders, networking in the loyalist community for jobs or housing, or just the personal satisfaction of advancing and protecting the cause and being connected to the elites who deal in the heady highly confidential stuff. Being a Stazi type snitch or agitator can be a difficult habit to break. We have to expect that there are ex-OSA and security personnel who enjoy that sort of thing. A big part of Hubbard's mindset was built around the idea that he was some kind of intelligence agent and understood the world of covert operations and there were lots of conspiracies and dark secret enemies out to get him and destroy Scientology. Hubbard promised that there were no hidden data lines but Scientology is chock full of secret data lines and the competitive nature of Scientologists makes them compete for access to those lines. It's more proof of loyalty and trust. The struggle to do the OT Levels is in itself a struggle to qualify for access to secrets and they pride themselves on keeping those secrets from lower level people. Scientologists hold people in awe who are on confidential lines. Events are often promoted as revealing things that have been kept closely guarded secrets. Scientologists routinely sign bonds and waivers to keep secrets.
There are a lot of shades of grey between the extremes of Scientology and this is just one of them. Some people are bound to manifest this mindset in some way.
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
You're acting as though this is some huge revelation.
I'm sure that all critics of the CoS would prefer criminal indictment, and realize the power they have.
That isn't something any one individual has control over. We can provide the information to the FBI or other law enforcement but cannot force them to act on it.
Have you asked attorney Graham Berry yet about his petition to the Obama administration? He wrote the petition that reads:
"We petition the Obama administration to: Examine the government's failure to investigate and prosecute Church of Scientology for crime, fraud and abuse...Whereas, the FBI has 300+ recent complaints of Scientology crimes and atrocities — human trafficking, forced abortions and civil rights violations, and the IRS has evidence of private inurement violations justifying intermediate sanctions, and existing evidence on hand meets RICO statutes...We request that the White House investigate and employ a Special Prosecutor to: examine why, with such an abundance of RICO evidence of Scientology being a corrupt entity...no law enforcement agency has moved forward...investigate undue favor and pressure brought by lawyers for Scientology leader David Miscavige to stop the investigations; examine why around the world the 'church' is investigated as a criminal entity while the U.S. Government does nothing?"
The former FBI agent that was in the Aftermath finale did claim that civil lawsuits do have value, and open the door to later prosecution.
Should the FBI choose to act at some point I'm sure they'll find testimony taken under oath against the CoS in these civil lawsuits valuable.
The suit filed yesterday accuses the church of sexual battery, racketeering and conspiracy.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
I see.
So if a whole bunch of data doesn't fit your pet hypothesis that Alanzo is an OSA agent, then start invoking the "shades of grey" modification and invent relationships which do not exist and for which you have absolutely no evidence - in order to keep your pet hypothesis alive.
You should have more than one hypothesis, or explanation, for Alanzo's behavior - shouldn't you, BigBlue?
What are some other possibilities?
#2. Alanzo is INSANE! He doesn't care what other Exes think about him and he writes what he genuinely and sincerely believes to be true.
#3. Alanzo is an Ex-Scientologist who has been watching the criticism of Scientology produce almost no results for the past 20 years, and has enough experience to see the MILE WIDE OUTPOINTS that exist these days and believes they are important enough to SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THEM. Especially after patiently watching Mike Rinder never cough up a crime for 12 years, keeping David Miscavige in power, still doing whatever he wants to Scientologists.
#4. Alanzo is doing an amends project to get back into the Church of Scientology by continually pointing up the likely cover up of the murder of Kyle Brennan because the statute of limitations has not run out on that - and never will. Which would go back to the Alanzo is INSANE hypothesis because DM will never consider this as amends. But Alanzo keeps trying because
ALANZO IS INSANE!
Lather Rinse Repeat
Such is the stuck and stupid reasoning of too many Ex-Scientologists these days.
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Out Effix
Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer
Alanzo - tldr. Don't care what you have to say anymore. You have lost all respect and your words have no meaning. I have put you on IGNORE - you are a Scientology OSA Troll getting paid by Scientology. End of story.Geese aren't ducks. Duckbill Platypuses aren't ducks. But they quack, look, and behave like ducks.
This is typical among Exes, but very stupid reasoning for how to spot an OSA Agent.
I work from home. I set my own schedule. And I have since I left Scientology 20 years ago.
Unlike you, I learned in getting out of Scientology that no one should be above criticism. And so when I see Leah and Mike lying about Scientologists believing in pedophilia (when Mike Rinder, as head of OSA, was the one to cover up ANY sex crimes in Scientology for DM) I don't shut up about that. Leaving Scientology taught me that I had to have the social courage to NOT shut up about these things.
And so I don't shut up about them.
I've also praised Mike Rinder and Leah Remini, as well. But you aren't focusing on any of that because you WANT to believe I am an OSA Agent. It is a way for you to reduce the discomfort you feel when your beliefs are challenged.
Not true. I get people thanking me for providing ideas that help them make their way out of the toxic bullshit in both Scientology and Anti-Scientology all the time. There are intelligent people who have been involved in Scientology and gotten out of it who reject the impotent and hysterical crap that goes for Scientology criticism these days.
I've been out for 20 years and I have not seen one criminal indictment on the Church of Scientology in all that time. David Miscavige is still in power, still doing whatever he wants to Scientologists.
I've seen 3 seasons of a TV show, which Mike Rinder starred in and produced, call for a federal investigation and an IRS tax review - and they did not even come close to achieving it. I've said why they haven't achieved it.
And I will continue to.
Because, unlike you, I believe that Marty Mike and Dave have committed specific criminal acts for which they can still be indicted, and I haven't been fooled by Mike Rinder's moral hand-waiving and distraction techniques.
You, along with too many others, have been fooled by that.
Oh well then! An un-named anonymous former OSA Agent spouting a QUI BONO theory! Always the most truthful and intelligent of hypotheses! Of all the reasoning you have presented that proves I'm an OSA agent - this is by far the most convincing!
Here's the problem: You are speaking as if you KNOW.
You said:
You never answered the question I asked you about this.
Why would you think I'm desperate for money?
Out Effix
Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer
TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
I was going to say mental...but OK.
Emma has kind of vouched for you. I don't think she would do that if she thought you were OSA or even a volunteer OSA or freelancer OSA wannabe and her support carries a lot of weight, at least with me. I don't think it is constructive to accuse you of being OSA but I absolutely think there are things you do that align with OSA's interests and I think this is extremely consistent with the shades of grey in between the extremes of Scientology as a subject as I described.
I don't really need a hypothesis to understand your motivations either. All I need to see is that your behavior coincides with OSA's goals and talking points for you to lose credibility. I have already explained that from my observation the unresolvable conflicts between various camps in the ex-community can be cleverly exploited for personal motivations without having to be OSA ops and as far as I'm concerned that is what you are doing. It's almost like some kind of cultural appropriation to make yourself the arbiter of who has the politically correct position to criticize Scientology.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
You do realize that I could say the same thing about you, right?
I could conclude that by your support and even black PR defense of impotent critics like Mike Rinder who after 12 years will never cough up a crime, you are " doing OSA's work for them."
I could say "if it walks like a duck...." blah blah
Now why haven't I?
