Moving on

[Alanzo]

Great Story, Dudins.

From what I understand, you were around between 1974 and 1984. That was a time of a lot of upheaval in the Church.

What did you know about Mary Sue's arrest and imprisonment?

Did you notice any changes on the finance lines while the Feds were closing in in the late 1970's?

Were you there for the monthly rising prices?

 

[Div6]

Thanks for sharing this.

How did you come to be posted in Mexico? If I recall correctly, the original boom was started from Philosphy Associations, and had nothing to do with the word 'church'. I think they even did their own translations and printings of DMSMH. The idea was to avoid any seeming conflict with the RCC.

Somewhere in Washington DC is a file cabinet full of stuff the FBI seized in the initial Raids on FCDC and the Cedars Complex in LA. I wonder how much has yet to see the light of day.

Thanks again for the story, and welcome to ESMB.

 

[Zinjifar]

The idea was to avoid any seeming conflict with the RCC.

Actually, quite the opposite. Mexico, since its revolution, has had a strong 'anti-clerical' bent and a 'church' and 'ministers' are far more suspiciouosly regulated than a 'secular' organization.

Just more Scientology opportunism

Zinj

 

[duddins]

Great Story, Dudins.

From what I understand, you were around between 1974 and 1984. That was a time of a lot of upheaval in the Church.

What did you know about Mary Sue's arrest and imprisonment?

Did you notice any changes on the finance lines while the Feds were closing in in the late 1970's?

Were you there for the monthly rising prices?

Thanks Alanzo...see I finally got the spelling right...

Actually between the time that I joined the EPF and when I left the states
(1975 to 1980) there was a great deal of change on finance lines. Two things:

In the SO we were not getting our information from the press. They were the bad guys....We recieved information on Mary Sue and other major events on a need to know basis and usually in breifings from great guys like Heber Jentzch. "They" were always wrong and the word from LRH's office was always gospel. So, the prospective I got on the Mary Sue issue was propaganda in nature, to say the least.


Re Finances, there you have hit a sore spot. I worked on the creation of and implementation of finance systems that were implemented in the US, EU, UK and elsewhere by the CMO.

This was a top priority, Hot program in the period from 1978-80. Perhaps because the Feds were moving in wanting accountability for the money. I would have recieved PR bullshit for the most part on this. But LRH was directing it himself and his intentions were clear. It was important to him.

They were called the "staff pay systems" in the US to make it sound like the concern was to get staff pay increased and living conditions improved. This was the front. The system took the splititng up of the pie out of the hands of the org execs and secured a substantial percentage going uplines whether or not the org could afford it. In some orgs, the GO oversaw the distribution of funds. Staff Pay was also percentage based and in order to make more staff pay, staff would have to make more money.

Bottom line: The idea was, if you take the money,,,,,they will make more money. I WAS INDOCRINATED WITH THIS.

Every proposal I wrote with a guy by the name of Brian Slevin was checked by the Commodore and many of the rejections had comments in his hand writing. He did not turn it over this project to his aides until he was happy with it.

I was sent on the missions to implement it. I was such a push over.....I truly believed that what LRH said would happen, would happen. When orgs started to suffer financially, the COs, or EDs were targeted as having CI. It got ugly.

At the org end, this would eventually result in rising the rising prices you speak of.

By that time I was on a mission taking over FOLO Latin America. Sippin Margaritas en la Zona Rosa. (joke)

But there is so much more to remember. For example, I still have trouble recalling alot of what occurred when I was Finance Officer at FOLO under Bill Franks. Eventually it will come back. That was a tough time for me.

Please note that the above is from my side of the sit. There may be others out there that were at the CMO end that would know more about this and how it came down at that end.

I hope this answers some of your question.

 

[duddins]

Thanks for sharing this.

How did you come to be posted in Mexico? If I recall correctly, the original boom was started from Philosphy Associations, and had nothing to do with the word 'church'. I think they even did their own translations and printings of DMSMH. The idea was to avoid any seeming conflict with the RCC.

Somewhere in Washington DC is a file cabinet full of stuff the FBI seized in the initial Raids on FCDC and the Cedars Complex in LA. I wonder how much has yet to see the light of day.

Thanks again for the story, and welcome to ESMB.

Thats true Div 6. The idea of a "church" in Mexico runs head on into the immense influence of the Roman Catholic Church in that culture. Many of the orgs have names like "Instituto Tecnologica de Dianetica" staying far from the idea of church.

I came to be posted there because I was a Flag missionaire. I did missions for CMO, Flag, Int, LCI and FOLO. I was sent on a mission to remove the previous CO. Myself and two others, placed a new CO on post and we stayed there for months overseeing everything he did. Eventually, my fellow missionaires went home and I requested permission to stay and be staff there. I Loved it there! I became 2nd in command to the CO. (he was a good hard working man by the way) Eventually, because Flag was not seeing the stats they wanted, realizing that they needed someone like me that would do whatever they wanted without questioning it, they posted me as the CO.

For a time things went great...the cont boomed. Was the LRH BD winner that year. (Guilleume was ED INT then, and EU had crashed. )

All was well until DM decided to use LATAM as his recruitment pool.

I would love to get my hands on that file!!!!!!! OMG

Thank you for being there!

 

[Div6]

Thats true Div 6. The idea of a "church" in Mexico runs head on into the immense influence of the Roman Catholic Church in that culture. Many of the orgs have names like "Instituto Tecnologica de Dianetica" staying far from the idea of church.

I came to be posted there because I was a Flag missionaire. I did missions for CMO, Flag, Int, LCI and FOLO. I was sent on a mission to remove the previous CO. Myself and two others, placed a new CO on post and we stayed there for months overseeing everything he did. Eventually, my fellow missionaires went home and I requested permission to stay and be staff there. I Loved it there! I became 2nd in command to the CO. (he was a good hard working man by the way) Eventually, because Flag was not seeing the stats they wanted, realizing that they needed someone like me that would do whatever they wanted without questioning it, they posted me as the CO.

For a time things went great...the cont boomed. Was the LRH BD winner that year. (Guilleume was ED INT then, and EU had crashed. )

All was well until DM decided to use LATAM as his recruitment pool.

I would love to get my hands on that file!!!!!!! OMG

Thank you for being there!

Well, I for one anxiously await the next installment of your debrief. As you may have guessed, there is no great love here for DM and his emotional fascism. So please, carry on as your time permits...

 

[ozzie]

Can I ask Duddins when you went on mission there? I was involved with LATAM as a programs chief in the early early 80s. Might know ya.

Ozzie

 

[Free to shine]

Thanks so much for reading my story. Yes! Life is good and all of the events that followed my leaving, including my experiences from inside; made me who I am today and I am content with the entire package. No regrets.

It is great to be in contact with people who understand. Thank you.

PS: I have posted installment 2 of the continuing saga. (moving on: 2)

I think you may be surprised at the number of people who do read. There's a hit counter that shows that.

Reading your story means a lot to me, you communicate extremely well what it must have felt like (as much as one can in writing), and that helps others who have been through similar situations. It also shows courage to come back after many years have passed and speak of What Must Not Be Spoken. I know it was hard for me, and details are still hazy after a few decades. But surely worth it. There aren't many people in 'normal' life who would have a clue at the depth of pain some of our pasts hold, it's not really conversation for over coffee with the neighbours.
Thankyou!

 

[Bea Kiddo]

My mom is still in the cult. I think she was in FCB at the time of the earthquake.

 

[Crusty Old Bastard]

Damn good job Duddins

Hi Duddins,

Thanks so much for posting your story and your account of these events.

What you describe in your leaving the Church, the anguish at the loss of a group held so dear and that you worked so hard for. This is really the greatest control mechanism the Church has. It works practically perfectly, and with excellent historic precedence.

There are duress, threats - there are ethics conditions and qual handlings, etc. but they all pale in comparison to the master mechanism.

The RCC (and numerous other religious groups) figured this out a long time back. One of the best methods to control someone and exert your power over people absolutely was through the illusion that you not only held COMPLETE and TOTAL control of their spiritual salvation, and could take it away at any time, but you also had the tool of excommunication. If you use this, then a person's family, business associates, social contacts, etc. would all abandon them in droves. So even if the person, not caring about themselves, dared to face the Church and cause trouble, they could be easily dispatched through excommunication. Problem solved utterly. Against this the individual simply cannot last.

This works perfectly well for the C of S and is in fact a primary reason why people stay in the group - I believe whether they realize this or not. Sure they "know" the only way they will be spiritually saved is by the good graces of the Church. (One must always be aware of what will look good on their Elig after all.) But what if their business depends on other's in the group? What if your child is on staff or in the SO? What about all your friends? Every one of them will disown you as quick as it takes to read the declare. All that you have worked so hard to attain? All those years spent training, helping, wanting to help Ron, all your contributions. It will all be gone - with just a piece of goldenrod. And even if someone questions your injustice - what good will come? Against the Authority there is no reason - for it is absolute.

The parallels between medieval Catholicism and "ethics" as practiced by the C of S are quite fascinating. One could go so far as to describe the C of S as a renaissance of medievil Machiavellianism.

In time people came to realize their Salvation was NOT dependent on the Church granting you permission to be saved. The power of your salvation is eternally within you, and as close as the compassionate hand of one's fellows.
Certainly your account displays this utterly.

And so the Catholic Church grows ever smaller. Excommunication has lost its all powerful statues, though is still practiced in many religions today, more subdued. (Except in Scn where it remains in full bloom.)

What we see today in the C of S is the death throws of a medieval inquisition gone mad and the priest exactly as described in the Clean Hands HCOB:

"And afterwards we go on making others guilty with the rest, when like some scrawny scarecrow of a priest whose tattered filthy robes are rough with sacrificial blood, we point the way to hell for those who kill."

Thank you so much for sharing how you recovered from your experiences and the contributions you have gone on to make in the world. From the people at the clinic in Mexico to the students you teach today - I applaud you. If you don't mind be saying, sounds like you have lead a life in complete alignment with your original Scientology ideals. You have helped people. What could be greater? Damn good job.

To those still in the Church, worried about all that you might loose should you be declared, all the friends you might loose, the loss of status, and recognition for all the good you have done please realize - NOBODY has the authority to tell you if you "deserve" to be saved. And I think you will find the world has far more good natured and sincere people in it then you may have been allowed to believe. Just ask Duddins.

COB

 

[Free to shine]

Hi Duddins,

Thanks so much for posting your story and your account of these events.

What you describe in your leaving the Church, the anguish at the loss of a group held so dear and that you worked so hard for. This is really the greatest control mechanism the Church has. It works practically perfectly, and with excellent historic precedence.

There are duress, threats - there are ethics conditions and qual handlings, etc. but they all pale in comparison to the master mechanism.

The RCC (and numerous other religious groups) figured this out a long time back. One of the best methods to control someone and exert your power over people absolutely was through the illusion that you not only held COMPLETE and TOTAL control of their spiritual salvation, and could take it away at any time, but you also had the tool of excommunication. If you use this, then a person's family, business associates, social contacts, etc. would all abandon them in droves. So even if the person, not caring about themselves, dared to face the Church and cause trouble, they could be easily dispatched through excommunication. Problem solved utterly. Against this the individual simply cannot last.

This works perfectly well for the C of S and is in fact a primary reason why people stay in the group - I believe whether they realize this or not. Sure they "know" the only way they will be spiritually saved is by the good graces of the Church. (One must always be aware of what will look good on their Elig after all.) But what if their business depends on other's in the group? What if your child is on staff or in the SO? What about all your friends? Every one of them will disown you as quick as it takes to read the declare. All that you have worked so hard to attain? All those years spent training, helping, wanting to help Ron, all your contributions. It will all be gone - with just a piece of goldenrod. And even if someone questions your injustice - what good will come? Against the Authority there is no reason - for it is absolute.

The parallels between medieval Catholicism and "ethics" as practiced by the C of S are quite fascinating. One could go so far as to describe the C of S as a renaissance of medievil Machiavellianism.

In time people came to realize their Salvation was NOT dependent on the Church granting you permission to be saved. The power of your salvation is eternally within you, and as close as the compassionate hand of one's fellows.
Certainly your account displays this utterly.

And so the Catholic Church grows ever smaller. Excommunication has lost its all powerful statues, though is still practiced in many religions today, more subdued. (Except in Scn where it remains in full bloom.)

What we see today in the C of S is the death throws of a medieval inquisition gone mad and the priest exactly as described in the Clean Hands HCOB:

"And afterwards we go on making others guilty with the rest, when like some scrawny scarecrow of a priest whose tattered filthy robes are rough with sacrificial blood, we point the way to hell for those who kill."

Thank you so much for sharing how you recovered from your experiences and the contributions you have gone on to make in the world. From the people at the clinic in Mexico to the students you teach today - I applaud you. If you don't mind be saying, sounds like you have lead a life in complete alignment with your original Scientology ideals. You have helped people. What could be greater? Damn good job.

To those still in the Church, worried about all that you might loose should you be declared, all the friends you might loose, the loss of status, and recognition for all the good you have done please realize - NOBODY has the authority to tell you if you "deserve" to be saved. And I think you will find the world has far more good natured and sincere people in it then you may have been allowed to believe. Just ask Duddins.

COB

Bloody good post!

 

[duddins]

Can I ask Duddins when you went on mission there? I was involved with LATAM as a programs chief in the early early 80s. Might know ya.

Ozzie

I went down there with Jessica and Guy...(last names still evade me.... I'm trying. ) We went down there late 80 early 81. Also did a short mission to Bogota and Valencia with Jessica and Guy. We had a blast together. Jessica was large, in charge and very German. Guy was hansome and knew it..had to have his hair perfect. I practiced my coffing skills on him for months. We laughed alot together. Any hits?

 

[duddins]

I think you may be surprised at the number of people who do read. There's a hit counter that shows that.

Reading your story means a lot to me, you communicate extremely well what it must have felt like (as much as one can in writing), and that helps others who have been through similar situations. It also shows courage to come back after many years have passed and speak of What Must Not Be Spoken. I know it was hard for me, and details are still hazy after a few decades. But surely worth it. There aren't many people in 'normal' life who would have a clue at the depth of pain some of our pasts hold, it's not really conversation for over coffee with the neighbours.
Thankyou!

Free to shine, I love your user name.
I have wanted to speak out for so long...but just didnt know how. I held it in all these years. Bits and pieces would come out to my kids. They were curious as to why I refused to go out to see Tom Cruise movies! It's just not the same.
You are so right...about the depth of pain. You have to live it to understand it fully.

 

[nexus100]

Hi Duddins,

Thanks so much for posting your story and your account of these events.

What you describe in your leaving the Church, the anguish at the loss of a group held so dear and that you worked so hard for. This is really the greatest control mechanism the Church has. It works practically perfectly, and with excellent historic precedence.

There are duress, threats - there are ethics conditions and qual handlings, etc. but they all pale in comparison to the master mechanism.

The RCC (and numerous other religious groups) figured this out a long time back. One of the best methods to control someone and exert your power over people absolutely was through the illusion that you not only held COMPLETE and TOTAL control of their spiritual salvation, and could take it away at any time, but you also had the tool of excommunication. If you use this, then a person's family, business associates, social contacts, etc. would all abandon them in droves. So even if the person, not caring about themselves, dared to face the Church and cause trouble, they could be easily dispatched through excommunication. Problem solved utterly. Against this the individual simply cannot last.

This works perfectly well for the C of S and is in fact a primary reason why people stay in the group - I believe whether they realize this or not. Sure they "know" the only way they will be spiritually saved is by the good graces of the Church. (One must always be aware of what will look good on their Elig after all.) But what if their business depends on other's in the group? What if your child is on staff or in the SO? What about all your friends? Every one of them will disown you as quick as it takes to read the declare. All that you have worked so hard to attain? All those years spent training, helping, wanting to help Ron, all your contributions. It will all be gone - with just a piece of goldenrod. And even if someone questions your injustice - what good will come? Against the Authority there is no reason - for it is absolute.

The parallels between medieval Catholicism and "ethics" as practiced by the C of S are quite fascinating. One could go so far as to describe the C of S as a renaissance of medievil Machiavellianism.

In time people came to realize their Salvation was NOT dependent on the Church granting you permission to be saved. The power of your salvation is eternally within you, and as close as the compassionate hand of one's fellows.
Certainly your account displays this utterly.

And so the Catholic Church grows ever smaller. Excommunication has lost its all powerful statues, though is still practiced in many religions today, more subdued. (Except in Scn where it remains in full bloom.)

What we see today in the C of S is the death throws of a medieval inquisition gone mad and the priest exactly as described in the Clean Hands HCOB:

"And afterwards we go on making others guilty with the rest, when like some scrawny scarecrow of a priest whose tattered filthy robes are rough with sacrificial blood, we point the way to hell for those who kill."

Thank you so much for sharing how you recovered from your experiences and the contributions you have gone on to make in the world. From the people at the clinic in Mexico to the students you teach today - I applaud you. If you don't mind be saying, sounds like you have lead a life in complete alignment with your original Scientology ideals. You have helped people. What could be greater? Damn good job.

To those still in the Church, worried about all that you might loose should you be declared, all the friends you might loose, the loss of status, and recognition for all the good you have done please realize - NOBODY has the authority to tell you if you "deserve" to be saved. And I think you will find the world has far more good natured and sincere people in it then you may have been allowed to believe. Just ask Duddins.

COB

As usual, a substantive and illustrative post. Thanks, Crusty!

 

[duddins]

To those still in the Church, worried about all that you might loose should you be declared, all the friends you might loose, the loss of status, and recognition for all the good you have done please realize - NOBODY has the authority to tell you if you "deserve" to be saved. And I think you will find the world has far more good natured and sincere people in it then you may have been allowed to believe. Just ask Duddins.

COB

COB,

I you have me at a loss of words...if that is at all possible.

But...I will say this.... If we can help one person, give them hope, what is better than that?

COB, Saying "thank you" does not really do it. I have to dwell on this for a bit.

 

[Crusty Old Bastard]

Help the Hopless

Duddins,

I agree very much. Those who are leaving, want to leave, are afraid to, etc. all need all the support they can get. It can certainly be rough. I hope they find places like this board where they can establish new connections and be able to communicate - live without fear.

I think it was that TV show Angel (the vampire detective guy) who's slogan was "We help the hopeless." - seems pretty fitting.

Hopefully, as boards such as this grow and become more numerous, as more groups of free and independent Scn's establish themselves, it will become easier for people to leave. When you no longer hold your illusion of a monopoly on the tech and peoples salvation it tends to take the teeth out of the menace.

Looking forward to more of your posts, thanks for being here.

COB

 

[Free to shine]

Free to shine, I love your user name.
I have wanted to speak out for so long...but just didnt know how. I held it in all these years. Bits and pieces would come out to my kids. They were curious as to why I refused to go out to see Tom Cruise movies! It's just not the same.
You are so right...about the depth of pain. You have to live it to understand it fully.

I didn't know how either. I haven't been here long and this is the first place it felt OK to post. It's great to see oldtimers talking and finding each other. I still haven't read everything but have spent a lot of time the last few weeks trying. There's a wealth of info as I am sure you are finding.
I just love what Crusty said too. It helps get it into perspective.

 

[Bea Kiddo]

Duddins,

I agree very much. Those who are leaving, want to leave, are afraid to, etc. all need all the support they can get. It can certainly be rough. I hope they find places like this board where they can establish new connections and be able to communicate - live without fear.

I think it was that TV show Angel (the vampire detective guy) who's slogan was "We help the hopeless." - seems pretty fitting.

Hopefully, as boards such as this grow and become more numerous, as more groups of free and independent Scn's establish themselves, it will become easier for people to leave. When you no longer hold your illusion of a monopoly on the tech and peoples salvation it tends to take the teeth out of the menace.

Looking forward to more of your posts, thanks for being here.

COB

Thank you for this. I have spent two plus years working on one member of my family to get that person out. Its coming to a head now.

It takes a lot of persistence. But I think it pays off in the end.

And that person is all the more freer. They dont see it now, when they are in, but man, its so freeing to be AWAY from it.

The funny thing is, when I got declared, right at that moment when I found out I was getting declared (I was still on the base for at least a month after that) and offloaded, I remember being very, very happy about it.

I knew that no-one would ever bother me again. Ever. Unless I decided to change. Yeah right. Not gonna happen.

And that is exactly what has occured. Nobody bothers me at all.

I am finally, and fully free.

And I am getting this other person to see that.

-----

Actually, covered on another thread is the visit with my dad. One thing my dad noticed and brought up was how much freer and happier I looked than the other person (who was also there, I cannot mention who publicly at this time, as he is still supposedly part of the church). The other person just looked stressed out. Trapped. Unhappy about the circumstances.

It sucks. But getting out, and seeing what kind of crap it all is, is so freeing.

----

I can dance in the rain...

 

[ozzie]

I do know you!

I do know you Duddins. I was sent in after Guy and Jessica got there to put him right as he was goofing. Yep Guy always did think he was beautiful. He was handsome but somewhat arrogant.
If I remember correctly you and I hung out while there in Mexico city. We got to see the city and the sights. You remember Tom Provenzano? If I remember correctly I came in with him. We toured the ruins there before we had to go back to Flag. Fuzzy memories but it does come back.
You sing and play guitar right? If you are the one I am thinking of we all sat around and listened to you sing and play guitar - you had a beautiful voice and I remember thinking how surprised I was as you had never mentioned knowing how to sing or play.

Wow, long time ago! What memories!

Ozzie

 

[duddins]

I do know you Duddins. I was sent in after Guy and Jessica got there to put him right as he was goofing. Yep Guy always did think he was beautiful. He was handsome but somewhat arrogant.
If I remember correctly you and I hung out while there in Mexico city. We got to see the city and the sights. You remember Tom Provenzano? If I remember correctly I came in with him. We toured the ruins there before we had to go back to Flag. Fuzzy memories but it does come back.
You sing and play guitar right? If you are the one I am thinking of we all sat around and listened to you sing and play guitar - you had a beautiful voice and I remember thinking how surprised I was as you had never mentioned knowing how to sing or play.

Wow, long time ago! What memories!

Ozzie

That was I! Remember in my "moving on" post when I said I want back for my possessions? The primary target of that mission was to get my guitar back, YEAH! .... and I still have it. Although my son took it over. My guitar went everywhere with me back in those days.
Wow, that does bring back memories Ozzie! Good ole Tom! What ever happened to him? And Guy of the perfect hair?
Remember what a wonderful little FOLO we had? It had a different feel that made me happy. I loved Mexico City.

I read your poem.....finding old friends. When joined this site, I wanted to reconnect with friends that I had shared happy memories with. I am floating right now.

Duddins