OT Abilities

[Smitty]

rreply to Andrew

I would like to ask people who are in a position to know (and there are many on this board) if you could please give feedback on the following:

I'm wanting to know if any of the processes in Scientology as it is delivered produces any measurable "OT Abilities".

Now by "OT Abilities" I actually mean all of the cool stuff that you would expect from a Jedi knight .
- Knocking hats off from 30 feet away.
-Parking your body in the corner and wandering around with FULL perception and in full control
- Reading others thoughts (once again knowingly and purposefully)
- Etc, Etc

I'm not really interested in the fuzzy feelings and vague knowingnesses or things "going right".

I want to know if there were any consistent, duplicatable and measurable results achieved with any processes as developed and used by the CoS.

It would be appreciated if you could put your experience / knowledge in this matter in the reply. (ie "OTVIII Completion", "NOTS C/S", "L's Completion", "Guy who knew a guy who's cousins best friend did it and told him")

I have never seen or heard of anyone going "OT", that is, acquiring unlimited superhuman powers from scientology. I have known of some people acquiring various abilities, some of which were stable. I seemingly have made snails move in certain directions, but even if I did that by intention, that does not make me a superman, an uebermensch, or an "OT".
The heresay stories about Hubbard doing this or that are hogwash. Here was a guy who had drug and alcohol problems, instituted draconian policies in the organization that he ran, and plagiarized ideas which he passed off as his own research.
I wish scientologists would stop using the "OT" expression as it has never been accomplished once. Use of the "OT" term is part of the con.
Smitty

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I haven't seen anyone achieve what's advertised in Scn (or $cn, if one prefers, either). I still use the term "OT" etc, but to me, it's an ideal that is largely unrealized.

 

[Alanzo]

I haven't seen anyone achieve what's advertised in Scn (or $cn, if one prefers, either). I still use the term "OT" etc, but to me, it's an ideal that is largely unrealized.

..largely?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Use of the "OT" term is part of the con.
Smitty

I just use it to refer to which specific programs have been completed, but then I never saw "OT" as "super-power based" or had any particular interest in such things.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Axiom142]

I don't know the answer to this for the particular people I spoke to, but in those days it was pretty much the rule that you did run those processes for hundreds of hours. So I assume, Yes.

Going from the small amount of data here, it would seem that decades ago people got big wins and sometimes OT-type abilities from auditing maybe hundreds of hours of objectives. They don't now because people run the processes to a certain EP, which falls short of the time required to produce such abilities. The Auditor's Code talks about not continuing with a process that is no longer producing change, but maybe the indicators of "change" are not accurate in this case.

There may be other reasons entirely why it doesn't happen now, such as drugs, TV, environmental pollution or Hubbard's body thetans, but if one is really serious about trying for it, it might be worthwhile investing a few hundred hours of Op Pro By Dup or SOP-8c or whatever in it.

Paul

I have a friend (don’t act so surprised ) who is still ‘in’. He has been up and down the Bridge a few times and has now been told to do his Objectives again.

But get this, these processes are now being done for huge numbers of hours, not just to F/N, cog, VGIs. Apparently, ‘someone’ realised that that they used to be done this way originally and decided to put this back in. According to my source, spending 800+ hours on all Objective processes is not uncommon.

I’m still undecided as to whether this is a good thing or not. If new public come into the orgs and start turning on OT abilities, this could be very good publicity for the CoS and encourage more people to get active again.

On the other hand, if these people do get super powers, they won’t be so easily controlled by DM and his henchmen. Also, all the guys who did the Objectives the ‘old’ ‘new’ way, and have done the OT levels without getting these super powers, are going to be very pissed off and may start realizing that they have spent huge amounts of money on total BS.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what results are gained from doing the Objective processes this way.

Axiom142

 

[Dulloldfart]

But get this, these processes are now being done for huge numbers of hours, not just to F/N, cog, VGIs. Apparently, ‘someone’ realised that that they used to be done this way originally and decided to put this back in. According to my source, spending 800+ hours on all Objective processes is not uncommon.

Wowser.

Hopefully these are being done in co-audits and not the HGC. Hard to believe though as it could actually help people. But 800 hours??? Got any links to such reports?

Also, I suppose this is in line with Davey's Basics speeding up the Bridge for people.

Paul

 

[Axiom142]

Wowser.

Hopefully these are being done in co-audits and not the HGC. Hard to believe though as it could actually help people. But 800 hours??? Got any links to such reports?

Also, I suppose this is in line with Davey's Basics speeding up the Bridge for people.

Paul

Paul,

Yes, these are generally done on a co-audit basis. But, if someone had enough money ......

Unfortunately, don't have any 'official' statements from the CoS on this, but I know it is happening, as my friend keeps telling me how many hours he is putting in. Seems to be getting some good results, but no evidence of any OT powers yet. The 800 hours is just what was relayed to me, but it obviously came from somewhere, can't imagine the CoS boasting about this.

I can't see how this is going to speed people up the Bridge either, but who knows? Maybe, the Grades will be cut back to compensate?

Axiom142

 

[Dulloldfart]

I can't see how this is going to speed people up the Bridge either, but who knows? Maybe, the Grades will be cut back to compensate?

Well, we'll see. Speeding people up the Bridge doesn't help them if it doesn't go anywhere.

Paul

 

[Axiom142]

....
If Scientology had ANY success at all with OT abilities, then they would put it on every TV station around the world, and people would be lining up in droves outside their doors. .....

Would they though?

Suppose Scientology did produce OT powers such as telekinesis, mind reading, going exterior with full perceptions etc, for all or even most of its customers? How would people react to this? I think we would get a very similar situation to the humans vs mutants in the ‘X-Men’ movies. This would cause fear and hatred.

Just imagine how the governments might react. They wouldn’t be able to control anyone, they couldn’t keep secrets, national security would be a nightmare! I have no doubt that they would do anything to stop this.

Of course, they couldn’t do it openly, all those pesky laws about ‘Freedom of Religion’ and other crap. So, they’d probably get someone in on the inside. This person (let’s call him ‘X’, no wait, that’s too much of a cliché, let’s take a letter at random, call him ‘D’) would be thoroughly trained in subversion techniques or maybe just brainwashed and programmed to follow secret orders. Anyway, ‘D’ would gradually insinuate himself into the leadership, enlisting the help of other ambitious and ruthless executives along the way, but without ever really trusting them. These unfortunates would be discarded once they had served their purpose. But, can’t have them running around telling the truth – better lock them up.

Once ‘D’ was securely entrenched in his position of power, he would begin ‘improving’ the technology. There would always be ‘good reasons’ why these changes were ‘necessary’ e.g. “SPs had changed the processes”, “Processes had been left out”, “People didn’t know how to drill others”, etc etc. Eventually, all these actions would result in any workable technology being lost and not being used. And, no real OTs being produced.

Wait a minute, I can feel a cognition coming on ....



Are you thinking what I am thinking!!!

Axiom142

 

[Dulloldfart]

Are you thinking what I am thinking!!!

No. Sounds like you need the Veritas Rundown.

Paul

 

[nexus100]

Would they though?

Suppose Scientology did produce OT powers such as telekinesis, mind reading, going exterior with full perceptions etc, for all or even most of its customers? How would people react to this? I think we would get a very similar situation to the humans vs mutants in the ‘X-Men’ movies. This would cause fear and hatred.

Just imagine how the governments might react. They wouldn’t be able to control anyone, they couldn’t keep secrets, national security would be a nightmare! I have no doubt that they would do anything to stop this.

Of course, they couldn’t do it openly, all those pesky laws about ‘Freedom of Religion’ and other crap. So, they’d probably get someone in on the inside. This person (let’s call him ‘X’, no wait, that’s too much of a cliché, let’s take a letter at random, call him ‘D’) would be thoroughly trained in subversion techniques or maybe just brainwashed and programmed to follow secret orders. Anyway, ‘D’ would gradually insinuate himself into the leadership, enlisting the help of other ambitious and ruthless executives along the way, but without ever really trusting them. These unfortunates would be discarded once they had served their purpose. But, can’t have them running around telling the truth – better lock them up.

Once ‘D’ was securely entrenched in his position of power, he would begin ‘improving’ the technology. There would always be ‘good reasons’ why these changes were ‘necessary’ e.g. “SPs had changed the processes”, “Processes had been left out”, “People didn’t know how to drill others”, etc etc. Eventually, all these actions would result in any workable technology being lost and not being used. And, no real OTs being produced.

Wait a minute, I can feel a cognition coming on ....



Are you thinking what I am thinking!!!

Axiom142

Jurassic Park or some such book has a section where a character goes off on modern technology, saying that due to past accomplishments people have been able to accomplish feats without considering whether they SHOULD have been accomplished. New scientists are simply using what others have discovered and taking the next step. And therefore haven't had to learn anything but that new creation. For example, in many eastern philosphies before a martial artist was taught to kill he was, in essence, taught not to kill, by acquiring a belief system along with the ability.

If somehow people do acquire such ablities as above does it really move them down the spritual path? Have they grown into an understanding that any such ability is simply part being themselves and worth no more or less than they are as persons? And therefore temptations to misuse such abilities would be minimilized? One can create a "super race". It's been done before, many times in human history, with just about 100% disastrous results. It doesn't mean anyone is better off, especially the poor bastards who are at the front.

 

[Lemuria]

Well, I've always wondered that , since they say that OT 8 is the first true OT level, that means that OT 9 and up must be some stuff you need to be ready for. I would say that the current levels are not truly toward that purpose.

I think that super powers that let you wield the physical universe from a distance can only be done by somebody who is in good control of the contents of his mind. If so many current Scientologist don't have the basic tenets of Scientology down cold first, then how can they control objects exterior to their own bodies? If a true OT can use his spiritual power to heal himself, then that must be a reality before he can change objects exterior to his own body and turn water into wine.

 

[nozeno]

Well, I've always wondered that , since they say that OT 8 is the first true OT level, that means that OT 9 and up must be some stuff you need to be ready for. I would say that the current levels are not truly toward that purpose.

I think that super powers that let you wield the physical universe from a distance can only be done by somebody who is in good control of the contents of his mind. If so many current Scientologist don't have the basic tenets of Scientology down cold first, then how can they control objects exterior to their own bodies? If a true OT can use his spiritual power to heal himself, then that must be a reality before he can change objects exterior to his own body and turn water into wine.

OT abilities are as REAL as Lemuria, that is to say, imaginary. Have a nice day.

 

[Lemuria]

I found this interesting piece on this site. http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/Management 1981_83.html

Preventing OT, why?

The original LRH OT levels IV - VII was removed and replaced by NOTs. NOTs was already released in 1978, but at that time it was not considered an OT level as such. It was more something like an OT repair. But it anyway replaced the original OT levels IV - VII, which had been delivered at the AO's since 1968. Therefore NOTs is called New OT V, New OT VI and New OT VII. The original levels has since disappeared and Snr C/S Int, is not about to tell what happened to them. I did ask, but got no answer on the question. See my letter to Snr C/S Int. See his reply to me.

Since the success of the well documentet remote-viewing program at Standford Research Institute in the early seventies, the US government had a problem with Scientology. The Church of Scientology had a technology which could help people attain or improve OT abilities. The Standford Research Institute project had proven that an OT can influence a magnetic field with his thought. Since the guiding system for a nuclear missile is controlled by a magnetic field, people who did OT levels would potentially be able to control an atomic missile. They were also able to perform remote-viewing which meant that they could spy on the CIA and the American Military!!!

US government feared that OT's produced by the Church of Scientology would be able expose them and take over control!!!

This perspective posed a problem of proportions to CIA and the American government. Therefore they decided that Scientology was a "National Security Risk". A secret program was initiated to take over the Church and alter the technology so that OT's would not anymore be produced.

Ealier attempts had been made, LRH mention that several places:

HCO PL 30 Oct 1962 "SECURITY RISKS INFILTRATION" "As the organization rapidly expands, so will it be a growing temptation for antisurvival elements to gain entry and infiltrate, and attempts to plant will be made." - LRH

HCO PL 14 June 1965 "POLITICS, FREEDOM FROM" "The reason for this declaration is the consistent disaster visited upon her "allies" by the United States government and the efforts of that government since 1955, stepped up since 1963, to seize Scientology in the United States rather than forbid or stop it and the role played by the United States in inspiring the Victorian State attacks in Australia. Scientology Technology is no longer offered to the United States government in any effort to assist her in political ends." - LRH

But until the old man finally withdrew completely from the Church, attempted takeovers were never really succesfull. Plenty of problems was caused by plants, but the final takeover only succeeded after LRH pulled out. And of course one of the first Tech changes was the removal of the original OT levels. The ones which could produce real OT phenomena. But the Tech changes had already started in 1978 by removing Standard Dianetics and replacing it with New Era Dianetics which was not anymore delivered at the beginning of the Grade Chart. One of the most succesfull actions of all times was the delivery of Dianetics. People wants Dianetics, but with the introduction of New Era Dianetics one would not get Dianetics until after completing Grades O-IV. Yes, you could get "Book-One Auditing", but it was considered an intro service and not granted much importance, not even a part of the Grade Chart.

 

[nexus100]

I found this interesting piece on this site. http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/Management 1981_83.html

They had 16 years by the above data to produce "OT's". They didn't, or clears, or even very many people who are appreciably better by their experience. The real question is how that happened. You could have had people putting together model trains with more spiritual advancement, for heaven's sake.
Give up the idea of OT, gains, truth revealed, all that BS, and you will likely begin to see what really is out there. Which ain't so bad.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

They had 16 years by the above data to produce "OT's". They didn't, or clears, or even very many people who are appreciably better by their experience. The real question is how that happened. You could have had people putting together model trains with more spiritual advancement, for heaven's sake.
Give up the idea of OT, gains, truth revealed, all that BS, and you will likely begin to see what really is out there. Which ain't so bad.

There do seem to be OT abilities though, as Dart demonstrated by getting his former friend to send him a postcard.

 

[Veda]

There do seem to be OT abilities though, as Dart demonstrated by getting his former friend to send him a postcard.

"OT" is a Hubbardism, as is "thetan."

All these things predate Hubbard and Hubbardology.

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=97934&postcount=6

 

[Little Bear Victor]

A few random thoughts on the subject.

There have been a few claimed experiences by people that somewhat indicated a potential toward such abilities but never anything conclusive. I can cover my 20-year Scientology experience in one post, so here we go.

Way back when I was first introduced to Scientology, matter of fact, a day after I first heard the words "operating thetan," I went to a briefing held by some "OTs" that had been to Flag.

One of the stories one of the people told was that after session they were sitting on a chair in the yard and there was a water hose that had been set up to water the lawn. The person wondered what it was like to "be the water" and suddenly they were. Then they discovered being able to be the grass, the chair, and other things around at will. The ability was temporary.

It was fairly impressive, so much so that when I got home, in a state of electrification, and took a shower, I could "will" myself not to feel the temperature of the water. I could turn it all the way cold and it would not bother me a bit (mind you, I HATE cold showers). It seemed like some sort of a proof of there being mind-over-matter abilities that were achievable.

Okay, fast forward two years. I am in the SO. I have not been convinced by any that they possess any OT powers, but this is not really very often discussed anyways. One day, however, a young kid shows up at the SO facility I was at and he claims he remembers exactly who he is/was last lifetime, that he can exteriorize at will, that he enjoys being in a small body since he can pretty freely do whatever he wishes and everyone will say "oh, he's just a kid." Such creative things as going and watching people have sex, taking over their body...

This is pretty freaky, so I asked him if he could "be" the plastic plant at the other end of the room at will. He says he could, but that it is not good to "be MEST," it's low-toned. Nevertheless, he proceeds to demonstrate he can. The only thing I can observe is that his body goes limp for a while and then he "comes to" again. I couldn't tell whether there was anything to it except for him acting as if he could do it.

The next personal "OT" experience I had was during Purif (Yeah, one of those high OT levels). One day I felt I was done with the Purif, EP'd with it, finished. That day I started running on the treadmill and wouldn't stop; full speed for 30 minutes. I never even got tired, no physical reaction of that type whatsoever. Then I decided to try the old shower trick that I had done years ago, with the same result: No matter how hot or cold I turned the water, it didn't bother me.

Either I could, by some strange effect, turn off my feeling of pain, or I was not fully in the body. At least that was my conclusion at the time.

A few more years forward: An executive in my org would say she was usually exterior but upon feeling pain in the body she would be pulled into it. Another staff member in the org claimed she was a past-life Clear and could remember almost anything about her track; her name, where she was born, what she did when. She even showed me a picture of the LRH Congress she "had attended" in the early 50ies and pointed out one person: "That was me! I died when I was 50 years old."

Another several years forward. I had injured my foot so that I could hardly walk, including a toenail that fell off (those damn things really hurt but good!) By gathering my "intention" I could turn the pain off in full for a few minutes so that I could operate totally normally. I could only make it last for 2-3 minutes at best.

That's about it from first-hand and second-hand experiences on the subject of OT in Scientology and the Sea Org in 20 years.

In other words, I can only say that I have (and probably others do, too) some sort of an ability to turn off the feeling of physical pain for a short period of time under heavily concentrated attention. Perhaps this is the same feeling people get when they think they are "exteriorized." I don't know. Scientology didn't provide me with the answer, only with PR.

A few more notes on OT abilities, this time with my favorite subject: DM.

Here's a man that would obviously LOVE to have OT abilities. If he had them, he would never have to physically leave his office and he would know everything that was going on! He could spot SPs by visiting them in spirit only to see what they were doing behind his back. Or he could read their thoughts. And he could knock them off without getting caught, make them jump off the bridge (He is doing something similar to that, but that's a bit of a different thing). He would not need an army of observers, towering piles of reports from every possible corner of the universe; he would just KNOW. Or he could just go and LOOK.

Does he do any such thing?

Does he even go in session to try and gain such abilities?

Does he demonstrate an ability to control MEST by thought?

The answer to each of the questions is "no." He controls his environment by authoritarian orders, threats and physical force.

So, if the very top person in Scientology -- and the world's biggest salesman on the subject of OT -- doesn't have such powers, why expect that anyone else would?

I'll leave you to ponder that.

 

[Knox Harrington]

Andrew,

I have the ability to be exterior to my body with full perception. Nothing I did in Scn this life time created that ability. Could it be from the auditing I received last life? I don't know. I've just always had this ability this life time. This life time my first memory of being exterior was when I was about 9 months old.

Looks like we've got another Randi millionaire. Would you guys get off your lazy asses and just take his money already?

 

[Knox Harrington]

You mean a lying crook named Randi that you'd like her to see...

lulwut? What did he lie about? What did he crook about?