OT Abilities

[Voltaire's Child]

Ummm....what if they don't live near you?

(yes, yes, I know...)

 

[Moonchild]

Oh, the poor little OTs. I didn't mean to hurt their feelings now.

There is no 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' - there is ONLY 'tell and be the truth'. And they should stop hiding behind peoples gullibilities and need for saviors.

If they're OT, then fine they're OT. But I don't want to hear about it - I want to see it.

Me too; that crazy little thing called "scientific method" and all that.

Is that an unreasonable request?

 

[Tanstaafl]

OTs, and those that seem to support the concept of them, love to talk about all these things they do. There has been mention in this thread about the OT wins written up in the Ability magazines. However, anybody can talk about experiencing these amazing things. You could do it, I could do it. But when some one asks for the proof, they seem to get very upset, and talk about how its so low toned, etc.

Talking about being OT, or doing OT things is not OT. If these people constantly need the validation of others for their 'powers' through the use of success stories about their wonderful wins, then something big is lacking in their lives. Which would disqualify them for any OT considerations.

BE, DO, HAVE - not TALK, TALK, TALK.

Well said.

Part of the problem is people being too polite to say to an "OT", "Show me what you can do?!" or fear of being accused of being invalidative.

A friend of mine asked an OT 8 this one time and the reply was long the lines of, "well true OTs don't brag about their powers". Oh, fuck off! How did we fall for this shit?! There are times when we polite Brits could learn a thing or two from brash Americans.

A couple of times while "in" I was asked what it meant to be "OT". "That's easy" I replied "You can lift a tractor by beams or postulate alone". That was my firm conviction (I have high standards you know ). I never saw anyone so much as shift a fucking paperclip but I hoped I would for 17 years - how dumb was I?!

God I feel depressed now! I'm gonna find some of that cream I was using for mosquito bites that makes me smart and rub it into my head!

 

[Andrew]

A couple of times while "in" I was asked what it meant to be "OT". "That's easy" I replied "You can lift a tractor by beams or postulate alone". That was my firm conviction (I have high standards you know ). I never saw anyone so much as shift a fucking paperclip but I hoped I would for 17 years - how dumb was I?!

I want to be a Jedi too!

I was sooo disappointed to find out it was a con. I was quite prepared to put up with flexible ethical standards and exorbitant fees but I damn well wanted the powers LRH talked about.

You can keep your "making things go right" and "nice clean space" I want the cool stuff!

 

[Tanstaafl]

I want to be a Jedi too!

I was sooo disappointed to find out it was a con. I was quite prepared to put up with flexible ethical standards and exorbitant fees but I damn well wanted the powers LRH talked about.

You can keep your "making things go right" and "nice clean space" I want the cool stuff!

I feel for you bro'. I have felt that pain. And I refuse to be embarrassed about wanting to be a superhero......well, I do feel just a little ackward...........damn it!

But remember, in a world full of supermen, only Bicycle Repairman stands out from the crowd!

 

[DartSmohen]

I want to be a Jedi too!

Do you look like Yoda?

 

[Axiom142]

....

A friend of mine asked an OT 8 this one time and the reply was long the lines of, "well true OTs don't brag about their powers". Oh, fuck off! How did we fall for this shit?! There are times when we polite Brits could learn a thing or two from brash Americans.

.....

Yes Tansy,

Saying “Show me the muthaf***ing OT powers!” might not go down too well in the UK. Hmmm, might work in New York though.

I’m not sure it was just about being too polite, there were many times when I didn’t dare say what I thought, for fear of getting into trouble. Yes, fear. That may sound strange to a non-Scio, but I’m sure that many others have felt it as well. A ‘religion’ supposedly based on logic and reason, and the members are afraid to give voice to their real thoughts.

I know what you mean about ‘OTs’ claiming not to brag about what they can do. I used to be very frustrated when I was in similar situations, just honestly wanting to know what it would be like to be OT. I never seemed to get a straight answer. Lots of woolly phrases like “I can more fully be myself” and “I can cut through all the BS and make things go right.” etc. Nothing very concrete.

I don’t think that I ever thought that OTs could lift tractors by telekinesis, but I did think that they could make everything go right and be very successful in their lives. So, it was a bit of a shock to discover that many were no more able than I was. In fact, I came across several that had more problems than I had. How can someone be supposedly incredibly powerful as a being and yet couldn’t seem to manage their finances to avoid getting hugely in debt? I mean, I make far more money than a lot of the people who are supposedly OT.

One OT power that I can agree is very common, is the power of ‘self-delusionment’ (see, I can make up words as well). No matter how many things go wrong, or how bad a situation they are in, some will always claim that they are ‘doing really well’.

So Scientology, take a win – you do give people extraordinary powers!

Axiom142

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Me too; that crazy little thing called "scientific method" and all that.

Is that an unreasonable request?

Saintly, psychic, OT- etc- phenomena/abilities/powers- it's all the same thing.

And one thing that those aren't- is scientific.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

One thing I remember, is going out to a cafe with some other Scn students when I was pretty new to Scn and pretty wide eyed at the idea of OTs. They were talking about the missionholder who was an OTV. They said "Well, look how she talks about this and this and this" (Times when she described hangups, phobias, temper tantrums, etc) "She's not OT!"

I was shocked at the time, but they were right. She may've made some progress with the OT levels. I know she thought she had, but she was nothing like OTs allegedly are. And she's far from the only OT I met who couldn't really walk the talk.

I do think things happen on the OT levels, or on other auditing. But there really don't seem to be any stable fully realized empowered OTs.

 

[Andrew]

Do you look like Yoda?

Yoda is already a Jedi.

He doesn't have to long for workable technology. Being fictional and all.

I on the other hand my or may not look like the man who has been following you around for the last few days...

 

[paradox]

Well said.

Part of the problem is people being too polite to say to an "OT", "Show me what you can do?!" or fear of being accused of being invalidative.

Wasn't/isn't it actually a "high crime" to invalidate a clear or ot? Apologies if this was already mentioned.

 

[Vinaire]

If a person is an OT he should be able to confront invalidation and evaluation.

Or, is he on a shaky ground?

.

 

[Spork]

Well, it seems to me like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If OTs don't prove their abilities or wins or whatever one wants to call them, then they are criticized. But if they do talk about it, well, they get criticized for that, too.

To me this isn't interestingly a question of whether or not alleged OTs are subjected to criticism or whether that criticism is fair. The issue is whether the OTs have the powers they believe they have. This is a matter of fact independent of anyone's criticisms, beliefs or powers.

In my own experience arguing with certain Scientologists on this subject I've often received these stock answers:

(1) "What's true is what's true for you."
(2) "Why are you trying to make me wrong?"
(3) "Don't evaluate for me."
(4) "Don't invalidate my gains."

Here are my stock replies.

(1) See Sporkful #1 in the "Your Story" section. (Tl;dr: if you believe (1) try doing some semantics. Philosophize moar.)

(2) It is not in my power to make you wrong. Nor is it in your power to make yourself right. Whether or not you have the powers you say you have is a matter of fact which we can try to establish (come to know) but cannot directly decide. In other words the question concerning the powers is not open to stipulation (or as you put it "postulation"). We can perhaps discover the answer; we cannot invent it.

(3), (4) There's a difference between questioning and denying. It's possible for someone to issue a denial in the spirit of raising a question. (Denials for the sake of the argument.) Someone who questions whether there are OT powers is not automatically committed to the view that there aren't any.

 

[Good twin]

If a person is an OT he should be able to confront invalidation and evaluation.

Or, is he on a shaky ground?

.

Silly question, Vinaire. Each OT level gets one closer the the next "Wall of Fire" and each "Wall of Fire" is far more treacherous then the previous, soooooo yes as one "rises" through the OT levels he actually becomes more vulnerable. Of course EVENTUALLY he will reach full OT and be unshakable and all knowing and all powerful. (and by that time the snake oil salesman will be long gone too)

 

[Vinaire]

Silly question, Vinaire. Each OT level gets one closer the the next "Wall of Fire" and each "Wall of Fire" is far more treacherous then the previous, soooooo yes as one "rises" through the OT levels he actually becomes more vulnerable. Of course EVENTUALLY he will reach full OT and be unshakable and all knowing and all powerful. (and by that time the snake oil salesman will be long gone too)

I think that the true OT level is the SP Declare because the person is now more self-determined than ever before.

.

 

[DartSmohen]

Silly question, Vinaire. Each OT level gets one closer the the next "Wall of Fire" and each "Wall of Fire" is far more treacherous then the previous, soooooo yes as one "rises" through the OT levels he actually becomes more vulnerable. Of course EVENTUALLY he will reach full OT and be unshakable and all knowing and all powerful. (and by that time the snake oil salesman will be long gone too)

Life is basically a game of snakes & ladders

 

[Rmack]

I think that the true OT level is the SP Declare because the person is now more self-determined than ever before.

.

That's great, V,

Salute!

 

[Rmack]

Think about it,

You are now free to do what ever you want WITHOUT the restrictions!

AND, if any two-bit guru comes along trying to con you, you'll laugh in his face!

I think Hubbard was selling cult inoculation, for whatever you were willing to pay! LOL

 

[Tanstaafl]

Wasn't/isn't it actually a "high crime" to invalidate a clear or ot? Apologies if this was already mentioned.

I think it's a HC to invalidate a Clear.

All this is easily solved - just keep case levels confidential.
That would work because of all the Clears, OTVIIIs and Ls completions I've met I couldn't tell them from a regular guy in the street.

So, if I meet a Scn who is clearly incompetent I don't need to say "Shit, as a Class VIII, OTVIII, 3Ls completion I thought you'd be able to tie your own shoelaces by now!", I can just say "You're a piss poor excuse for a human being!" and not be concerned about invalidating their case level.

 

[DartSmohen]

I think it's a HC to invalidate a Clear.

All this is easily solved - just keep case levels confidential.
That would work because of all the Clears, OTVIIIs and Ls completions I've met I couldn't tell them from a regular guy in the street.

So, if I meet a Scn who is clearly incompetent I don't need to say "Shit, as a Class VIII, OTVIII, 3Ls completion I thought you'd be able to tie your own shoelaces by now!", I can just say "You're a piss poor excuse for a human being!" and not be concerned about invalidating their case level.

Then you tell them to harden the fuck up!