Scientology is all bad

[HelluvaHoax!]

Hmm.. well if I BELIEVE I am now not afraid of Men or afraid of Heights or afraid to speak to strangers, then something happened. Maybe it's all in my head, but dang, I do feel better I'm all for any of you feeling better by any action you take.. but do you REALLY feel better, or are you all imagining it? LOL Heck if I know

At one time I had a fear of both disembodied beings and the dark. That was before I did the Bridge thru OT VII.

After OT VII I no longer had these charged and reactive dramatizations. It was blown and I was free of my bank. Talk about proof and guarantees, well there is proof positive beyond any reasonable doubt. It happened! I blew the charge! Case closed (literally and figuratively).

I spoke to my mom about this recently and she totally invalidated my gains and wins trying to tell me that those fears I had of ghosts and the dark are common to all children under 5 and had nothing to do with the auditing that I got two decades later. She evaulated like hell and said that my gains were due to "maturity"--My God, she is totally running psych terms and ops on me!

But I can guarantee that when I was 4 years old it was "me" the being that is the same being that did the OT levels when I was in my twenties--so that disproves her stupid wog logic! I just kept my TR0 in on her and I am sure that she felt my ethics presence and will duplicate my OT wins later after her com lag flattens.

Is there any Scientologist out there with good TR2 that can give me an acknowledgement on my wins so that I get that FN feeling back? I just hate dealing with wogs because their perception is so low!

Go Ron!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

If you think I'm feigning being pissed off, go read Demented's thread about CofS GI sources over on OCMB.

Infinite, I really can't be bothered arguing with you. The point of the NYT article was to show that *scientists* are still struggling to understand the actual nature of memory.

The NYU experiment that supposedly debunks Hubbard's engram theory was pathetic; Scopalomine, a pinch and reading text from a physics book just doesn't cut it.

I propose that either you or Demented LRH volunteer for a *real* Engramic Experience experiment; we could set up video recording with audio, then hit one of you repeatedly in the head until you go unconscious.

When you get out of hospital we could try to audit it out with Dianetics and see how well the "engram" content uncovered matches the video recording. That'd be a very satisfactory experiment, IMO, regardless of the outcome.

I second the motion. Of course, it would require several hundred repetitions in order to acquire enough data for statistical significance ... but I do not regard that as too great a price for them to pay in the interests of science.


Mark A. Baker

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Of all the people I have given sessions.. there were actually a few who were willing to pay me just to insult me.. just sat there staring at me and flinging insults almost as soon as they picked up the cans. Others.. one particularly devious one.. turns out what he wanted was to blow charge on his overts, kind of like a Catholic confessional, so that he could go out and little by little commit BIGGER ones.. it was his way of becoming an SP I suppose.. as soon as I realized that, I stopped giving him sessions. The majority of people are very well intentioned and happy to be there and co-operate..

I don't know if that really happened, but in the vast number of hours of auditing that I C/Sed or gave or heard others give, I have never run into the kind of thing that you are talking about.

PC's willing to pay just to insult the auditor?

If I had to bet (and my life depended on it) I would bet that that never happened.

People paid you so they could insult you?

Really?

Why does this sound like made up stuff? Anyone else ever have paid pcs do that? Did I miss something in Scientology? I am happy to learn about this if it really happened. I don't mind being stupid and learning something new.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Try describing things without using Hubbard's terminology for a day.

I tried that once. The results were very bad.

I became an SP.

People! Do not try this at home!!!

 

[Smilla]

I don't know if that really happened, but in the vast number of hours of auditing that I C/Sed or gave or heard others give, I have never run into the kind of thing that you are talking about.

PC's willing to pay just to insult the auditor?

If I had to bet (and my life depended on it) I would bet that that never happened.

People paid you so they could insult you?

Really?

Why does this sound like made up stuff? Anyone else ever have paid pcs do that? Did I miss something in Scientology? I am happy to learn about this if it really happened. I don't mind being stupid and learning something new.

Never happened to me either. Maybe I was doing it wrong.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Never happened to me either. Maybe I was doing it wrong.

 

[guanoloco]

Ron's orgs' blow my mind~! Poor old Xenu was declared a suppresive person !!!

http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob20.htm

This mostly looks to me like one of my son's early computer games... and the fact that these folks believe it's real is... astounding. (Like the virgin birth, for example -- and if can just indulge the board some more, ("A couple observations. First, nonfundamentalist Muslims don't take the cosmological parts of the Koran any more literally than nonfundamentalist Christians take the biblical story of Genesis. They understand the bits about virgins and so on as metaphors for 'the ineffable joys of the afterlife.'." hee hee. [my emphasis]. From http://www.straightdope.com/columns...ran-really-promise-islamic-martyrs-72-virgins - which is not a bad read I thought).

So I'm not picking only on Scientologists. Anyway, continuing with Ron's orgs scenarios:

"Xenu took the body of Adam Weishaupt and created the secret society known as the "Illuminati."

"In the 19th Century, Xenu carried on his plan for world domination by taking bodies in the Rothschild banking family. The infiltration and take-over of secret societies such as the Masons, a continuing part of his plan to gain "insider" control, was also accomplished."

"In the 20th Century, he and his conspirators influenced the exact points of monetary and political power needed to bring their world domination plan to its conclusion. Xenu controlled the body of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the American President, in the early 1940's and planned for the use and control of atomic and nuclear weapons to keep the populations of Earth in fear and terror."

"Discarding the body of FDR, Xenu then inhabited the body of Per Jacobsson, an international economist with the Bank of International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland....." And so on (and on and on and on).

Your babies are not safe even in a maternity ward.

OY~!

What's even better?

Ron said this is the not quite dead in the long gone graveyard at the end of all time and space or something like that.

This is the bottom of the dwindling spiral - YET - the guh-lack-sees greeaaaaaaaaaaatest criminal is all bent and focused on the psych bin of the entire cosmos.

Makes sense, huh?

Couldn't you just see Al Capone suddenly being all gangsta in the local psych ward...totally forgoing all the racketeering of the Chicago night life.

That silly Cap'n Bill!

 

[Smilla]

One of the fundamental assumptions of Scientology is that anyone who isn't a Scientologist is basically crazy to some degree or other. What worries me, is that everywhere I go I keep meeting nice people.

Is it some kind of setup, do you think?

 

[Dilpickle]

I don't know if that really happened, but in the vast number of hours of auditing that I C/Sed or gave or heard others give, I have never run into the kind of thing that you are talking about.

PC's willing to pay just to insult the auditor?

If I had to bet (and my life depended on it) I would bet that that never happened.

People paid you so they could insult you?

Really?

Why does this sound like made up stuff? Anyone else ever have paid pcs do that? Did I miss something in Scientology? I am happy to learn about this if it really happened. I don't mind being stupid and learning something new.

You never had a PC who just sat down and started saying things like Boy, your TR's are awful, you are the worst auditor I ever had, you suck, etc? Well, either you got great PCs or maybe I suck as an auditor LOL Only thing is 98% of my PCs never said such things..

 

[Dilpickle]

Hellluvahoax: I've got a long involved story, which is a good example of what I am describing.. if you don't mind an entire Chapter, I will describe it to you

 

[Demented LRH]

I second the motion. Of course, it would require several hundred repetitions in order to acquire enough data for statistical significance ... but I do not regard that as too great a price for them to pay in the interests of science.


Mark A. Baker

This kind of experiment does not require the analysis of statistical data, thanks to Hubbard's assertion that EVERYONE has engrams. To prove Hubbard wrong it would be enough to find just one person who does not have engrams. I am that person because I did not acquire engrams after I passed out in the dentist chair.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

This kind of experiment does not require the analysis of statistical data, thanks to Hubbard's assertion that EVERYONE has engrams. To prove Hubbard wrong it would be enough to find just one person who does not have engrams. I am that person because I did not acquire engrams after I passed out in the dentist chair.

The only thing close to an engram I ever encountered was my experience in Scientology which "erased" when I spotted the Basics basic, Hubbard.

 

[Demented LRH]

What if Scientology Tech was all GOOD.. which I don't believe, but let us PRETEND for a moment that it is all good. And what if the Churches were run ALL BAD? Or mostly bad? For starters.. here is what might/could go wrong when a new person plunks down $1200 for whatever amount of auditing that might buy..

1. He is TIRED because he doesn't usually have an extra $1200, and had to get a 2nd job to make it, and had to eat a few dinners of rice and beans, etc.. so he is really not sessionable.

2. His auditor works 12 hours a day for very little pay, and is ALSO tired and not well fed. Who KNOWS he has to get his STATS UP or he might end up in Ethics, Retraining, or the RPF

3. The CS: DITTO

4. The Course Sup who passed the auditor and CS on their training - DITTO

5. The Examiner who checks you out to see if you really had a win - DITTO

6. The Keeper of the Stats.. whoever that is... who continually PUSHES everyone to work harder, longer hours, get more folks completed on whatever, etc.. He too is overworked and probably tired and hungry and doesn't want to end up in Ethics..

7. The Ethics Officer who is supposed to handle all this.. or the RPF workers.. or the Qual Secs.. ALL DITTO - all overworked and threatened that if stats are not up, LRH will not be pleased.. we DO need to Clear the Planet, after all.

Which leads me to the conclusion.. WHY IN HELL CAN'T STAFF AND SEA ORG Have enough money to live and enough time to rest, and not be pressured into False Completions in order to NOT BE PUNISHED in some way? Here's this poor auditor on the Apollo - probably auditing 10 or 12 hours per day, and worried if he makes an error, over the side of the ship he goes..
Even if Scientology was PERFECT, which I believe it IS NOT.. how on earth can any organization succeed under such conditions? And as far as having the goal to help THE WORLD - EVERYONE - that is ridiculous - not everyone wants help - they are happy to be doing just what they are doing.

Of all the people I have given sessions.. there were actually a few who were willing to pay me just to insult me.. just sat there staring at me and flinging insults almost as soon as they picked up the cans. Others.. one particularly devious one.. turns out what he wanted was to blow charge on his overts, kind of like a Catholic confessional, so that he could go out and little by little commit BIGGER ones.. it was his way of becoming an SP I suppose.. as soon as I realized that, I stopped giving him sessions. The majority of people are very well intentioned and happy to be there and co-operate..

Another problem with Huge Organizations.. if it becomes obvious that they are producing fantastic results, and people are becoming smarter, more aware, happier, healthier, etc. etc. Lots of promotion and advertising, etc.. there are always SP's that get wind of it, and make it their mission to join up incognito and screw it up.

If anyone ever REALLY makes a Bridge to Happy Healthy Human Being plus Happy Healthy Spirit, I think they would do best to keep it quiet, and let it spread word of mouth, and not put up big banners and advertise it.. Just form many many many small groups that will each get 20 or 30 people involved, and teach others to start their own small groups, etc.. in order to spread it around. Most of us could handle 20 people.. most of us could NOT handle that big blue building in Hollywood. Dilpickle

Just like you, I used to blame everything on the auditors who were responsible for the false completions. But this does not explain why ALL auditors are bad. The ones who work for Scientology franchises are well-fed, live in regular apartments and getting paid aprroximately $30 per hour (Class V Auditors) and $40 (Class VIII Auditors). Still, they are not able to cure a single person from heart diseases, multiple sclerosis, dyslexia, etc.

I was out of sea org when I was auditing my friend, who had multiple sclerosis. I was auditing him mostly on weekends; I was well-fed because I was making $40K a year and well-rested because I always had enough hours of sleep. I was not using e-meter though because I did not have one. But I based my auditing on Volume I and II of Dianetics Series which do not require the use of e-meter. Hubbard cleared plenty of people before inventing the e-meter, I was following in his footsteps. My effort was not rewarded-- my friend was placed in a nursing home after his mother died -- there was no one to take care of him the way she did. He died in a nursing home, the Tech could not save him.

Was I a bad auditor? It is not for me to judge how good (or bad) I was, but I was following Hubbard up to the letter, and still was unable to help my friend. Besides, Hubbard wrote that even if the auditor does everything wrong, the result is still excellent.

 

[guanoloco]

L Ron Hubbard knew he was lying when he said he used Dianetics to cure war injuries - and then, the same year the book comes out, the very premise of his "Modern Science of the Mind" is not substantiated by scientific experimentation. The next year his associate, Dr Winter, writes his report. Then, two years later, another NYU experiment does away with some of the major claims made by Dianetics. It beggars belief that L Ron Hubbard's original intent was anything other than to defraud.

OK, just so you know, I am on your side.

However, I want to throw this in because I've seen this argument and its line of thought before from many...and that is that L. Ron (the greatest, best, most, first, etc.) came ripping out of the gate claiming to have cured himself of war wounds.

I don't believe that is what happened...rather, just like the Sara Northrup stories, the claims and stories became more and more exaggerated over time.

Here's this from a 1950 Look Magazine article:

The war interrupted the development of dianetics. As a Naval Reserve lieutenant, Hubbard served on escort vessels until he was sent to the Oak Knoll Naval Hospital near Oakland, Calif., where he stayed for the best part of a year, suffering, he now recalls, from "ulcers, conjunctivitis, deteriorating eyesight, bursitis and something wrong with my feet."

But his sufferings were not entirely in vain. For the hospital had an excellent medical library, and Hubbard, with dianetics boiling up within him, wanted to avail himself of this facility.

"Doctor" in the Library

The library, unfortunately, was not for patients but rather for the use of staff medical officers. But the young scientist got around that easily enough. "I just had a friend in the Marines refer to me as Doctor, loudly, several times, within earshot of the librarian. After that I had free run of the joint."

By 1947, Hubbard, discharged from the Navy and granted a VA disability pension, had pretty well unraveled the mysteries of the engram and was venturing to "process" his friends, who urged him not to withhold this great boon from suffering humanity. There remained, however, the problem of choosing a suitable scientific medium in which to announce and expound dianetics.

To begin with there were no "war wounds" and this article exactly matches his medical records from WWII.

It is only later that we get "the earliest, first casualty of the Pacific War" and being machine-gunned in the back and rescued at sea and saving Australia and flying home in the Secretary of the Navy's personal plane and throwing exploding shells off the deck and Rambo, First Blood and Chuck Norris across the jungles of Asia and 21 medals and who-knows-what-else.

I think it's because he'd a been fingered for the liar he was beings it was only 5 years after the war and numerous vets who knew him and his whereabouts would've cried foul if he'd claimed other than the truth. Later though? When memories fade and people drift apart and he's surrounded by a closed sphere...then the stories abound.

On top of that there's no mention of him curing himself of anything!

Also, isn't it interesting that it shows his duplicity by "tricking" his way into access of the library and also mentions his VA disability? He's even bragging about the trick.

In the R&D's Ron gives lecture after cocain-induced lecture and in one he's talking about being so restimulated as an auditor that while he's running out the PC's engram he's retching (probably should be "wretching" ) into a trashcan, meaning he's not the first Clear and still in possession of his Reactive Mind.

"L. Ron Hubbard had a farm...
E, I, E, I, O!

And on that farm he had an engram...
E, I, E, I, O!

With a spinbin here, a spinbin there...
Here a spin there a bin
Everywhere a spinbin.

L. Ron Hubbard had a farm...
E, I, E, I, O!"

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

--snipped---

Hubbard cleared plenty of people before inventing the e-meter, I was following in his footsteps.

Oh, plenty of people!

That's a relief. I thought it was a hoax.

I have had very bad luck in trying to meet one of them. Since you are (obviously) a Clear, you shouldn't have any trouble remembering the names of any of those "plenty" who reached Clear, right?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

You never had a PC who just sat down and started saying things like Boy, your TR's are awful, you are the worst auditor I ever had, you suck, etc? Well, either you got great PCs or maybe I suck as an auditor LOL Only thing is 98% of my PCs never said such things..

Are you sure that number shouldn't have been 97.5%?

 

[guanoloco]

Oh, plenty of people!

That's a relief. I thought it was a hoax.

I have had very bad luck in trying to meet one of them. Since you are (obviously) a Clear, you shouldn't have any trouble remembering the names of any of those "plenty" who reached Clear, right?

...too easy, HH, that's the SP list...

 

[Dilpickle]

Just like you, I used to blame everything on the auditors who were responsible for the false completions. But this does not explain why ALL auditors are bad. The ones who work for Scientology franchises are well-fed, live in regular apartments and getting paid aprroximately $30 per hour (Class V Auditors) and $40 (Class VIII Auditors). Still, they are not able to cure a single person from heart diseases, multiple sclerosis, dyslexia, etc.

I was out of sea org when I was auditing my friend, who had multiple sclerosis. I was auditing him mostly on weekends; I was well-fed because I was making $40K a year and well-rested because I always had enough hours of sleep. I was not using e-meter though because I did not have one. But I based my auditing on Volume I and II of Dianetics Series which do not require the use of e-meter. Hubbard cleared plenty of people before inventing the e-meter, I was following in his footsteps. My effort was not rewarded-- my friend was placed in a nursing home after his mother died -- there was no one to take care of him the way she did. He died in a nursing home, the Tech could not save him.

Was I a bad auditor? It is not for me to judge how good (or bad) I was, but I was following Hubbard up to the letter, and still was unable to help my friend. Besides, Hubbard wrote that even if the auditor does everything wrong, the result is still excellent.

Hello DementedLRH ~ I don't know if Dianetics has any chance of fixing the illnesses you mention, however, I have mentioned on several threads, that LRH DID say early on that in Dianetics you Never Leave a Postulate Unflat... and then later on, I believe he made it much less workable by taking the Postulate question OUT of it.. which I believe he did for his own crazy selfish reasons. In my experience, there are usually MANY Postulates, Ideas, Thoughts, Decisions, etc connected to a Dianetic Incident. I've never tried to cure anyone of a disease with Dianetics.. and don't know that it would do that. If there's any truth at all to OT Levels, then maybe if someone was at cause over Mest, Spirits, Universes, Life, etc etc they could effect a cure on themselves.. it seems it would be possible at some point, but I don't claim to be at that point myself.

When we run Dianetics, we do it by the book up to the point where the incident has been recalled several times, in ones' mind and verbally to the auditor. Then we ask "Did you make a decision in relation to that incident? And if they say Yes, I decided that apples were not good for me.. we ask "How did you say that to yourself at the time?" and they might answer "These apples are bad".. then we have them repeat that phrase 'til it stops reading, and ask "why did you make that decision" and accept whatever answer with an acknowledgement. Then we would ask for Another Decision, etc, until Blow Down VGI's.. Dilpickle

 

[Demented LRH]

Oh, plenty of people!

That's a relief. I thought it was a hoax.

I have had very bad luck in trying to meet one of them. Since you are (obviously) a Clear, you shouldn't have any trouble remembering the names of any of those "plenty" who reached Clear, right?

I'm just being sarcastic. Hubbard did not cure a single person, I know that.

I was also an excellent audotor who achieved nothing because Dianetics is a non-existent science. I was an excellent auditor because I was working without e-meter, while my peers could not get by without one. In fact, I was the best auditor in the history of Scientology because my goal was to outperform Hubbard. Still, I got away empty-handed.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

One of the fundamental assumptions of Scientology is that anyone who isn't a Scientologist is basically crazy to some degree or other. What worries me, is that everywhere I go I keep meeting nice people.

Is it some kind of setup, do you think?

lolololololololololololololol


Jeez, I hope this isn't some kind of setup. That would be really not-theta.

And Scientology never told me I was crazy.

I did, however, get an R-Factor from the C/S that I was a degraded being who had fallen to the bottom of dwindling spiral and couldn't get up.


[video=youtube;_iZWFEFwgBw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iZWFEFwgBw[/video]