What's new

Scientology is all bad

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I think Hubbard would more correctly be classified as "flotsam", according the the legal definition...(wait three beats to hear from Mark A. on this :biggrin:) . . . <brevity snip> . . .

Heh! I suppose I could quibble in that the heaving overboard of such things as disconnection, fair game and so on could be seen as Scientology "equipment", and so too the name of L Ron Hubbard which has had so much capital investment, but point taken. In my defence I shall say: in prose, adriot alliteration aids awareness and accelerates acceptance of an allegory.

: )

. . . Yeah, derelict...unsalvageable. Some Sociopaths ARE like that. :no:

Fer sure. The LSD-laced toothpaste is out of the tube when it comes to L Ron Hubbard.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
:hysterical:

"what else is there to OT but certainty"?

These people are such DOOFUSES!!!!!!!

Certainty is ONLY a "state of mind". It means NOTHING!

People back in the 13th century were VERY CERTAIN that the "world was flat", and if you sailed far enough that you would "fall off the edge".

Various Muslim fanatics are VERY CERTAIN that their faith is the "only correct version" and that if one dies in a suicide bombing that he will "go to heaven", and be blessed forever with wine, food and MANY virgins.

Jehovah's Witnesses are entirely CERTAIN that they will be part of the 144,000 people who will sit with God and Jesus after the Apocalypse.

And, Scientologists are VERY CERTAIN that following Scientology will lead them to glorious states of OT!

In fact, what most people on Earth have been "certain of", at almost all times, and in almost all places, HAS NOT BEEN true or even real. :no:

What certainty actually is, is a mental state of "being convinced". These types of people are DEEPLY CONVINCED. They have bought into some set of answers lock, stock and barrel. They are "totally convinced".

I could fill a book with examples of people who were "totally certain" about something, and where what they were "certain of" was NOT true or valid at all.

Again, "certainty" is ONLY a state of mind. It is largely of the nature of "faith" and "belief', often being entirely disconnected from observations of actual reality.

Personally, in my view, I do NOT have the attitude that "certainty" is at all valuable, desirable or even useful.

That Hubbard could TRICK people into imagining that "certainty" was first, worthwhile, and second that he could deliver it to them with Scientology, was one of his many feats of deception.

I have found that as I have became WISER that I am "certain" of LESS and LESS. In fact, as I mature and evolve, I am quite happy and comfortable wallowing in DOUBT. I don't "need to know". I no longer need to create a pretentious attitude and view of "certainty" - about anything. That is NOT something that any Scientologist can say. Most couldn't even grasp what I just said. :no:

Now, to a degree I am confident in my own abilities. But, that is NOT the same as "certainty".

I have no desire for certainty in anything. I find people who exhibit strong certainty (whether religious, philosophical, political or scientific) to be somewhat tedious, too rigid in their attitudes, and . . . . . well, boring.


Cool post on "Certainty".

For many years, I have given carefully selected books to key executives or staff in my companies or as gifts to other entrepreneurs that I was doing business with.

Without a doubt, if I tallied it up, the most frequently given book is THE EXPERTS SPEAK, a delightfully entertaining compendium of "geniuses" atop every field of human endeavor (politics, music, sports, medicine, science, anthropology, biology, etc....) with a QUOTE of theirs that was considered to be the "ultimate wisdom" by most. Naturally, that wisdom was later proven to be outrageously & laughably wrong.

Example: When the unknown Beatles were looking for support from a record label they successfully were heard by leading record company Decca. The all-knowing guru of that company (CEO, Epstein) was completely "certain" about not signing them or even investing a penny: "Guitar groups are on the way out......the Beatles have no future in show business."

I always arrive back at one conclusion with Scientology. It is in the business of selling words. What people do with those words (Clear, OT...) is a remarkable study in human nature, imagination, delusion, cognitive dissonance and many varieties of mental self-stimulation. Certainty is the marketing campaign of how Scientology sells those words.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Ya, Hubbard was a... Pirate & Bum... :omg:

So what should I call my new religion? I'm kinda stumped.

Oobleckism is catchy.

This would be the symbol, which would be worn on the t-shirts of apprentice Oobleckologists, and worn, as an attractive cloth patch, on the lapels of handsomely sports jacketed professional level Oobleckologists.

2ba3b8912f530d741c9266dc3cc9b2a3.jpg


And this would be your basic book.

bartholome_andthe_oobleck.gif


Join :yes:right now and you can the first :happydance:Oobleckologist!:clap::clap::clap:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
God! I remember "OTs" pulling that trick on me before I did the OT Levels, "We need more OTs up here!, you'll love it up here!" -- as if they existed at a higher plane and knew things I didn't. It's such BS when "OTs" pull that -- I think because they want to give themselves that "altitude". What utter BS!

Bill


Thanks Bill.

We quite enjoy your little posts up here.

We'll see you up the bridge, down the line and over the rainbow.

ML,

Hell Ron Hoaxard
Currently at Target III

:biggrin:
 
On the whole "Is hypnotism involved in Scientology?" theme, Anakin Skywalker just started a new thread with a great post! :thumbsup:

Here's a quote of the relevant passage:

"Well, let’s take a look at the earliest definition of hypnotism, as was given by James Braid, who coined the term:

“The real origin and essence of the hypnotic condition is the induction of a mental concentration in which the powers of the mind are so much engrossed with a single idea or train of thought, as to render the individual unconscious of, or indifferently conscious to, all other ideas, impressions, or trains of thought.”

—James Braid, Hypnotic Therapeutics, 1853


Now, take a look guys: Ron was superb at concentrating our attention on him and his tech alone:

Don’t read newspapers, don’t do other practices, don’t listen to psychologists, disconnect from your friends and family who disagree with scientology, don’t be a dilettante, spend all your free time at the org, be a dedicated Sea Org member, scientology is the only solution etc.

This concentration of attention is, purely by definition, a method of hypnosis.

Examples of this include the following:

“I have been researching upper OT levels, and I can tell you this very plainly: If Scn doesn’t make it worldwide you’ve had it – yes, I mean you. One is not working for just this life. He is working for any future life at all”.

(HCO PL 14 March 1982 Financial Irregularities)

Ok, he said this, so how do you know it is true? Well you don’t. You have to take his word for it. This means that in order to really “know” this for yourself, you have to continue up the Bridge and all of its secret levels.

By now your mind may be shutting you down to listening to what I have to say here. That is because Ron, the Master Marketer, cleverly positioned himself as “Mankind’s best friend,” and carefully covered his tracks by indoctrinating Scientologists with the idea/broad generality that anyone who is critical of Scientology is anti-spiritual freedom. Wow, how’s that for effective thought-stopping?

Here follows another classic example of how Scientology training can gradually get one’s attention focused on Scientology and little else:

“We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better.

The whole agonized future of the planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.

This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.

Remember, this is our first chance to do so in all the endless trillions of years of the past.”

–L. Ron Hubbard HCO PL 7 February 1965 Keeping Scientology Working Series 1

Not only does this policy narrow one’s attention so that Scientology becomes the most important thing in one’s life, it also creates a sense of urgency, and a heightened sense of potential loss.

It is important to note that we often overreact to potential losses, focusing more on the short-term consequences rather than the longer-term effects. And the more meaningful a potential loss is, the more likely we are to make irrational decisions.

If it is not the policy itself which is at fault, then the fault is surely the mind-frame which is cultured by some policies; the overriding mood, the pervasive sense of urgency, of emergency, of superiority, of us-versus-them.

Herewith follows an example of how the us-versus-them attitude starts to enter the scene:

“When somebody enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe – never permit an open-minded approach. If they’re going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard; they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us – win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists.

We’d rather have you dead than incapable.

(HCO PL Keeping Scientology Working 1)

So now we have not only an “induction of a mental concentration in which the powers of the mind are so much engrossed with a single idea or train of thought, as to render the individual unconscious of, or indifferently conscious to, all other ideas, impressions, or trains of thought,” but we also have a sense of us-versus-them starting to creep in.

Here is another example that shows how some Scientologists have developed an elitist, and hence separatist, mind-frame:

“A handful of us are working our guts out to beat Deadline Earth. On us alone depends whether your kid will ever see sixteen or your people will ever make it at all. A few of us see the world has got a chance if we don’t dawdle along the way. Our chance is a thin chance at best. We are working as hard as we can in Scientology. And, the only slim chance this planet has rests on a few slim shoulders, overworked, underpaid and fought – the Scientologist. Later on, if we make it, what will be your answer to this question? Did you help?”

(“Five Years”, 1967, Auditor Mag #9)

Note once again the overriding sense of urgency, as well as the narrowing of attention (“only slim chance”) in the quote above.

Other “cultural” factors in Scientology further separate Scientologists from others (which, incidentally, is a sign of overt-acts) by calling people such things as “Degraded beings,” “SPs,” “wogs”and “raw meat.”

Such indroctrination all forms a part of the hypnosis process.

According to Hubbard, hypnosis is a relatively simple mechanism:

“By deep trance or drugs we take a patient into amnesia trance, a state of being wherein the ‘I’ is not in control but the operator is the ‘I’ (and that’s all there is, really, to the function of hypnosis).”

–L. Ron hubbard, Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health


Of course, Hubbard created great rapport with his audience by regaling him with his exaggerated stories, and his charming and charismatic personality. This made it easy for his audience to accept all that he was saying without question. In fact, a common mantra which Hubbard himself promoted was “What would Ron do?”, as a means of handling situations in orgs. Ron also wrote the policy of KSW1, which mandated that Scientologists do what he dictated. This, in effect, put the “I” out of control, and made L. Ron Hubbard the “I.”

Perhaps one of the more significant policies that determine the general Scientologist’s mind-frame is “The Responsibility of Leaders.” The essay is Hubbard’s criticism of Simon Bolivar and his consort, Manuela Saenz. He analyses what he feels they did wrong and what they should have done to be successful.

Listen to some of the things he criticized Manuela for not doing:

“…she never collected or forged or stole any documents to bring down enemies…”

“…she never used a penny to buy a quick knife…”

“She never handed over any daughter of a family clamouring against her to Negro troops and then said ‘Which oververbal family is next.’”

He also recommends that those working for a power give that power deniability – the famous “pink legs” quote. And he recommends always “pushing power to power.” “It may be more money for the power or more ease or a snarling defence of the power to a critic or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark…”

He also has the following policy:

“When you move off a point of power, pay all your obligations on the nail, empower all your friends completely and move off with your pockets full of artillery, potential blackmail on every erstwhile rival, unlimited funds in your private account and the addresses of experienced assassins and go live in Bulgravia and bribe the police.”

Gee, suddenly my PC folders dont feel so “confidential” anymore…

I know, I know, this is all “taken out of context” and “he really didn’t mean it” and “he was only kidding,” and so on. No, re-read the essay. Read it for what it actually says.

The fact is, this represents the exact culture of Scientology, a culture which is steeped in this kind of totalitarian ethics. It is the culture which it creates which is at fault. And the culture stems directly from the policy.

Of course, this could probably all be justified if things were so terribly serious, and if Scientology were the only hope for “salvation.” But here’s another thing: when did it all become so bad? From what do we need this “salvation”? ... (more follows).

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


It's a brilliant post. I think that Anakin is still trying to salvage some good from the Scientology processes, or maybe is just wanting to further explore mankind's "spiritual" abilities (which we almost all have and don't need Scientology to learn or develop.)

Anyway, read the whole post and see what you think: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?28236-My-synopsis-of-Scientology
 
Last edited:

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I didn't mean to say or even to imply that there was nothing hypnotic in the subject and practice. I said I was never hypnotized in an auditing session, nor to my knowledge did I ever hypnotize anyone. I do know what a trance state is, I have experienced them and I am a hypnotizable subject, capable of being placed into a trance state by another. I know exactly what that feels like and I can state with confidence that it did not occur while I was receiving auditing.

EDIT: With the notable (and previously noted) exception of Dianetics, the above applies. I may well have been placing dianetics preclears in a trance. In fact I think that's how it works.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I once started a thread asking that exact question--"what outside Scientologists promise". The results were unbelievably bad. That question is very upsetting to many Indie/FZ Scientologists.

I have tried asking that question on many different threads, at many times, exactly as you have stated it:

"What does Scientology promise? What does Scientology deliver?"

I always have thought that many of the problems with Scientology could be resolved if they simply got somewhat honest, and said, "Scientology MIGHT be able to help you with THAT".

Instead of the typical "standard" per-LRH Church of Scientology attitude of TONE 40, "Scientology can HANDLE THAT!" Without any doubt! With total certainty. 100% for sure with no possibility of anything else.

Scientology teaches people how to MOCK UP "total certainty" - even though the substance of the claims are entirely lacking. It teaches people how to contrive a viewpoint, to feign an attitude of "I KNOW".

Of course, so much of the Scientology scam involves the KSW notions and HARD SELL viewpoints that ONLY Scientology can provide "eternal freedom", and that ONLY the application of exact Scientology methods can cure all of Man's ills. Involvement with Scientology creates ROBOTS who will PARROT those views (with firm dedication and unreasonableness). It really IS a "role-playing game".

The FANATICAL attitude, where Scientology IS THE ONLY ANSWER, is deeply woven right into the philosophy itself. It would be "out KSW" to become reasonable and actually be honest and say that "MAYBE Scientology might be able to help"! :duh:

But, it will never happen as long as any person or group adheres to all of Hubbard's lunatic CLAIMS as contained in KSW, Technical Degrades policies, issues like "From Clear to Eternity", "Hard Sell", and "Five Years".

It is actually entirely "off policy" to come down anywhere from an attitude of "total certainty" in the workability and always wonderful results of exactly-applied Scientology. And, promoting or acting "off-policy" is a HIGH CRIME (suppressive act) - you do the math . . . . .
 
Last edited:

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I always have thought that many of the problems with Scientology could be resolved if they simply got somewhat honest, and said, "Scientology MIGHT be able to help you with THAT".

Of course, so much of the Scientology scam involves the KSW notions and HARD SELL viewpoints that ONLY Scientology can provide "eternal freedom", and that ONLY the application of exact Scientology methods can cure all of Man's ills.

The FANATICAL attitude, where Scientology IS THE ONLY ANSWER, is deeply woven right into the philosophy itself. It would be "out KSW" to become reasonable and actually be honest and say that "MAYBE Scientology might be able to help"! :duh:

But, it will never happen as long as any person or group adheres to all of Hubbard's lunatic CLAIMS as contained in KSW, Technical Degrades policies, issues like "From Clear to Eternity", "Hard Sell", and "Five Years".

It is actually entirely "off policy" to come down anywhere from an attitude of "total certainty" in the workability and always wonderful results of exactly-applied Scientology.


Here is something that (when I was studying/applying Scientology) would have not been sensible to me. But it is true.

Scientology is very much like a Gypsy Psychic Advisor.

People who goes to psychics for "readings" have no idea that they are going to be conned out of as much money as possible.

The person going to the advisor does get "wins". Ask them. They keep coming back because many things the gypsy tells them are so true (they "indicate").

As the mark gets further sucked in, they learn that they have evil spirits (BTs) that need to be exorcised (OT III - OT VIII).

The mark then discovers that if they don't do the next step (C/S) it could be very bad for them...much worse than they would ever dream of (Dissem Formula...ruin, fear of worsening, et al).

There is a big price to pay (exchange) for the gypsy's mark to get rid of ("blow") the evil spirits (BTs). The mark has to give them (Reg) the money now, now, now.

No matter how many evil spirits (BTs) they get rid of, there is always another problem that needs to be solved (Grade Chart, Bridge to Total Freedom).

The money demands NEVER stop for the mark or for a Scientologist. Ever.

In both cases the victim is extremely hesitant or unwilling to do anything about it because they are embarrassed to admit that they got scammed or even afraid of what the gypsy/OSA will do to them if they demand a refund.

Both the gypsy and Scientologist are expert at working within legal loopholes to avoid consumer protection laws.

One of the keys is that both the mark and the pc swear by the results and the wins. They are both amazed and happy with the "tech" but mostly HOPEFUL that the next action will really fix what is wrong.

Nothing ever gets fixed in either gypsy psychic reading or Scientology except the bank account balances of the perpetrators.

I can understand how this analogy is quite insane to a Scientologist. But, then again, a Scientologist will strap a videocam on their head and go to a strangers house and stay in their front yard for several months.
 
I always have thought that many of the problems with Scientology could be resolved if they simply got somewhat honest, and said, "Scientology MIGHT be able to help you with THAT". . . .

Yes. What is more, I consider that this distinction goes along way towards separating out the various factions among those who use scientology tech.

1. The church is the single most dogmatic advocate of scientology auditing. With them it is 'my way or the highway' in every aspect of a scientologist's life. For the Co$, L. Ron Hubbard is the Sole Source, with possibly Miscavige serving as his Chief Interpreter & Prophet.



2. Rathbun's brand of Independents, is willing to cut slack to individuals concerning those aspects of living which are independent of hubbard's dictates.

They are apparently unwilling to admit to any failings in the tech as supposedly outlined by hubbard. For this group also, Hubbard is considered Sole source, although they reject the leadership of Miscavige.



3. Freezoners/independent scientologists take a very individual & independent view about the subject of scientology. This is for the most part accompanied by a live and let live attitude towards others and their different views.

They admit to limitations & failings in the subject, although being a genuinely independent bunch they don't necessarily agree as to what those limitations & failings may be. This can make for spirited disagreements among individual members.

Most also seek out ideas & adapt techniques from subjects & disciplines which are independent of Hubbard and the church. Individual study of other spiritual practices, religions, and approaches in psychology are common. Often things learned from such other subjects are incorporated in their own views of the subject of scientology. Despite protests from those who hold a less flexible and more 'orthodox' view of the subject, such an heterogeneous approach to the subject of scientology is consistent with at least some of the traditional definitions of the subject as offered in the tech dictionary.

Attitudes vary greatly over the mix, but they still acknowledge as primary the role that the subject of scientology has played in their own individual approach to spirituality.



4. Those who having had earlier experience with the subject of scientology and have developed for themselves spiritual practices which they no longer consider to be 'scientology' and accordingly not viewed as scientologists themeselves despite some possible residual similarities to the prior subject in their programs.

These last may still use some aspects of the subject of scientology, but they constitute a small part of their overall program. These last vary in the degree to which they may acknowledge scientology as having influenced their work, and indeed may well have little remaining in common with the subject of scientology yet have it still as a part of their development path.


5. Those who have no connection to the subject of scientology.



Call it a The Gradient of Scientologists. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
I heard that vast majority of the individuals who practice various forms of Scientology outside CoS still want to go to the higher OT levels. Even if they believe in validity of the OT data, they still should be asking themselves: What can I possibly gain if I go OT?

Hubbard did not guarantee that reaching a level below OT 15 (the old OT levels) would save a person from being trapped at an implant station and impregnated with the horrible, horrible implants. All their OT gains will be erased after the death, and the horrific implantation cycle will begin again.

If I were practicing any form of Scientology, I would be depressed by the thought that all my spiritual gains are temporary, and I cannot carry them to the next life. My anger with Xenu would prevent me from enjoying this life.:clap:
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
It seems we are all on our own selected paths, wishing to become more aware, more "ourselves", more enlightened, whatever that may mean to us. We don't seem to want to keep the status-quo... If I have problems, I want to solve them. If I am stupid, I want to get smarter. If I am unhealthy, I want to run for miles, etc etc.. For starters, it helps to look at where you are now, and fully confront it.. and perhaps many of us are doing this, rambling on and on here... seeing where we are now, and where we want to go.

I believe the Biggest Mistake I made in all this was to concentrate so heavily on my spiritual awakening. I wanted to be OT.. or whatever you want to call it. Spiritually aware. Free as a spiritual being. Able to go exterior and choose my location. All that stuff.

To accomplish this, I started off on a heavy schedule of examining my THOUGHTS.. What did I think about this or that.. how did I respond.. how did I act... why did I do it... how can I change it.. what's going on in my mind.. why do I think that.. who am I mad at.. why am I mad at them.. all that kind of stuff.. which is fine if you are working on the mind and it's significances.. however, I got entirely off balance..

One day I realized I was so self-absorbed and demanding that I was becoming un-liveable with.. a pain in the ass. I wanted my spiritual freedom so much that I was neglecting my body, my house, my friends, etc. Not entirely, of course, but so much so that I was becoming weaker and weaker and less able all the time.

Whatever you are doing.. I suggest BALANCE. If you are working on your mind.. fine.. do it.. but take breaks and think of others.. start a garden.. get a puppy.. enjoy the earth.. look at the sky.. admire a flower.. hug a child.. touch the walls.. get yourself located.. be happy to be alive.. give your body a treat.. a vacation.. a visit to a spa.. new clothes.. haircut.. and don't forget to acknowledge the spirit.. Mother Earth.. Supreme Creation, however you see it.. your own intuition.. creativity.. draw something, or write a poem, or learn a new dance.. Tai Chi or a good martial art.. Exercise.. take care of your body.. keep your house nice, and beyond that.. be artistic about it.. get a new picture for the wall.. add some knickknacks or whatever you like.. Enjoy being alive.. make your life a work of art in progress..

I thought I would clear up my mind and fly out of here on angel's wings.. instead, I fell on my head with a big THUNK.. Only visiting the mind with such intensity diminishes all the rest.. My mind was getting so FREE feeling that I truly thought I was on my way, until the imbalance became so pronounced that I flopped pitifully...

I say this to anyone who is only moving in one direction.. start spreading out in ALL areas.. appreciate and love them ALL.. Make some new friends.. play baseball.. whatever you like to do. MOTION is important.. you can only sit for so long getting whatever kind of sessions you are getting.. Your body wants to MOVE... Anyway.. this information literally saved my life.. I was starting to shrink into a self absorbed puny little thing, and had to make a fast turn-around at one point. If you are ONLY working on your body.. take a look at your mind and spirit.. and the World around you... etc etc.. Dilpickle

Got to admire your pluck.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I heard that vast majority of the individuals who practice various forms of Scientology outside CoS still want to go to the higher OT levels. Even if they believe in validity of the OT data, they still should be asking themselves: What can I possibly gain if I go OT?

Hubbard did not guarantee that reaching a level below OT 15 (the old OT levels) would save a person from being trapped at an implant station and impregnated with the horrible, horrible implants. All their OT gains will be erased after the death, and the horrific implantation cycle will begin again.

If I were practicing any form of Scientology, I would be depressed by the thought that all my spiritual gains are temporary, and I cannot carry them to the next life. My anger with Xenu would prevent me from enjoying this life.:clap:
You've mentioned this before and I have to ask, do you think these things you're writing about, "implant station and impregnated with the horrible, horrible implants" etc, are real or actual? I'm not sure that all scientologists believe in their actuality.
 

BardoThodol

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think for a great many people it is quite true, that "if something can't be defined it doesn't exist" (at least for them).

It seems to me, in studying people (and my own conceptual mind) that for many, they mistake and confuse the content of their minds with reality. It is the whole Korzybski thing from General Semantics where people have IDEAS about reality, with all sorts of mental labels, classifications and relationships, where the mind makes a highly detailed and complex MAP of the terrain, and THIS realm of MIND replaces and exists instead of contact with reality.

This realm of mind often acts as a set of blinders. This is discussed in various forms of eastern philosophy, though Hubbard neglected this area almost entirely. Hubbard mainly talked about fixed ideas (concepts that hinder and limit awareness and experience), and while he seemed to "get it", he also, unbeknowst to his followers, IMPLANTED AN ENTIRE NEW SET OF FIXED IDEAS after "clearing" old ideas.

That is even too over-simplified, what I just said, but the human conceptual mind often/usually acts to greatly confuse things. Of course, it IS necessary up to a certain point, this realm of intellect, meaning and significances - but it needs to be a TOOL and NOT a hindrance. :yes:

I remember looking at my in basket one day and realizing that the only way to possibly get the gains promised in Scientology was to discard Scientology completely. So many new fixations replacing the old.

Hubbard talked about the fishermen somewhere using shadows to herd fish so they could be caught. At that moment I just saw a bunch of shadows herding us all into a trap of our own conception.

All around me were people afraid to test the shadows, to even touch them with a finger to see if they had sufficient substance to prevent one from simply "walking through."

Then I realized that all ideas could become traps.

So, I ran a finger through all my ideas, watched them shimmer, disappear, and then reform.

Ideas can sure be a lot of fun. And sure be useful when convincing a salesman to sell you a car at a price you want to pay.

But in the end, they merely shimmer and disappear.

Ps: HH, would be interested in the book list you used to provide others. Always looking for a good read.
 

phenomanon

Canyon
I didn't mean to say or even to imply that there was nothing hypnotic in the subject and practice. I said I was never hypnotized in an auditing session, nor to my knowledge did I ever hypnotize anyone. I do know what a trance state is, I have experienced them and I am a hypnotizable subject, capable of being placed into a trance state by another. I know exactly what that feels like and I can state with confidence that it did not occur while I was receiving auditing.

EDIT: With the notable (and previously noted) exception of Dianetics, the above applies. I may well have been placing dianetics preclears in a trance. In fact I think that's how it works.

When you took a PC into session did you have your TRs in? Did youhave your TR0 in when you looked at your PC. Were you not instructed to see that the PC was looking at you before you delivered a command? Did you not look your PC directly in the eyes , with your TR0 in, when you said "this is the session"? Was the PC , then, awaiting your command as to where to place his attention?

For you, as a trainee, I am certain that you did TRs out thye kazoo. I know I sure did. Hard TRs on the Flagship without a break for 12 hours.

I didn't know very much about Hypnotherapy until my dear (departed) friend, Lawrence West, studied it and gave me some books on it.

I know a little of what I am talking about., if it was me that you were dissing in an earlier post as not knowing what was being talked about.

YMMV.
phenomAnon
 
Last edited:

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
When you took a PC into session did you have your TRs in? Did youhave your TR0 in when you looked at your PC. Were you not instructed to see that the PC was looking at you before you delivered a command? Did you not look your PC directly in the eyes , with your TR0 in, when you said "this is the session"? Was the PC , then, awaiting your command as to where to place his attention?

For you, as a trainee, I am certain that you did TRs out thye kazoo. I know I sure did. Hard TRs on the Flagship without a break for 12 hours.

I didn't know very much about Hypnotherapy until my dear (departed) friend, Lawrence West, studied it and gave me some books on it.

I know a little of what I am talking about., if it was me that you were dissing in an earlier post as not knowing what was being talked about.

YMMV.
phenomAnon

I obviously don't know enough about hypnosis to understand this.. Isn't what you described Very Much Like a parent who sits their child down, the child has been misbehaving, and they look them in the eye and say WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING? How is that any different than Putting in your TRO and asking for an incident? If that's all it takes, we hypnotize folks all the time.. I don't get it?? PS: Was Lawrence West living in Texas? I think we met him once.
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
PS: I just thought of something that might disprove your theory that you are hypnotized when running Dianetic Incidents. I have had probably 1000's of hours of auditing of all sorts.. and NEVER EVER would I do whatever the auditor told me to do in those sessions. If my auditor said "Jump up on the table and do a little tapdance" in the middle of my session, I would stand up, say "Go Jump In The Lake", put the cans down and leave. I would figure my auditor was a Nut. LOL
 
Now I know for a fact that you would not be allowed to blow a session like that by any decent Auditor in any Org anywhere.. I remember Ron, in a lecture, describing a struggle when a PC was trying to blow a session, and the Auditor hit him and knocked him out, and dragged him back over the doorstep into the auditing room, and then shouted in his face, "End of Session". :nervous:

Does anybody else remember that?

Okay, maybe Ron made that story up, or was just joking, (for someone who did not want others to J&D, HE sure did it a LOT!) but that was the kind of zealousness he wanted to see...Auditors having COMPLETE control over their PCs.

Very bad juju. :nervous:
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
Now I know for a fact that you would not be allowed to blow a session like that by any decent Auditor in any Org anywhere.. I remember Ron, in a lecture, describing a struggle when a PC was trying to blow a session, and the Auditor hit him and knocked him out, and dragged him back over the doorstep into the auditing room, and then shouted in his face, "End of Session". :nervous:

Does anybody else remember that?

Okay, maybe Ron made that story up, or was just joking, (for someone who did not want others to J&D, HE sure did it a LOT!) but that was the kind of zealousness he wanted to see...Auditors having COMPLETE control over their PCs.

Very bad juju. :nervous:

Hahaa.. well that is Funny.. sort of... LOL.. However, NO AUDITOR tells you to do anything out of the ordinary.. if they DID you would be fully cognizant of it, and if it was too weird, you would certainly be allowed to refuse doing it.. Isn't hypnosis started with words like "You are now under my control".. "You are getting very sleepy" "You will not remember what happened".. "You will do as I say" type ideas? I thought that was the point.. that you had agreed to do ANYTHING the hypnotist said.. Obviously we are AWAKE during a session, and can discern what the auditor is asking us to do.

The only reason the folks you are describing probably didn't walk out, was they didn't want to end up on the RPF or something.. out of fear.. not because they couldn't think for themselves.. they were threatened.. That doesn't have anything to do with hypnosis either.. The hypnotist doesn't threaten you do get you to do what he wants..
 
Now I know for a fact that you would not be allowed to blow a session like that by any decent Auditor in any Org anywhere.. I remember Ron, in a lecture, describing a struggle when a PC was trying to blow a session, and the Auditor hit him and knocked him out, and dragged him back over the doorstep into the auditing room, and then shouted in his face, "End of Session". :nervous: ...

Sounds like more hyperbole from hubbard; making a point about session through excess in his examples. Most of what hubbard said in his lectures was stated for the purposes of entertainment. It's often hard to distinguish between his jokes and what he actually believed.


Mark A. Baker
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
Here is something that (when I was studying/applying Scientology) would have not been sensible to me. But it is true.

Scientology is very much like a Gypsy Psychic Advisor.

People who goes to psychics for "readings" have no idea that they are going to be conned out of as much money as possible.

The person going to the advisor does get "wins". Ask them. They keep coming back because many things the gypsy tells them are so true (they "indicate").

As the mark gets further sucked in, they learn that they have evil spirits (BTs) that need to be exorcised (OT III - OT VIII).

The mark then discovers that if they don't do the next step (C/S) it could be very bad for them...much worse than they would ever dream of (Dissem Formula...ruin, fear of worsening, et al).

There is a big price to pay (exchange) for the gypsy's mark to get rid of ("blow") the evil spirits (BTs). The mark has to give them (Reg) the money now, now, now.

No matter how many evil spirits (BTs) they get rid of, there is always another problem that needs to be solved (Grade Chart, Bridge to Total Freedom).

The money demands NEVER stop for the mark or for a Scientologist. Ever.

In both cases the victim is extremely hesitant or unwilling to do anything about it because they are embarrassed to admit that they got scammed or even afraid of what the gypsy/OSA will do to them if they demand a refund.

Both the gypsy and Scientologist are expert at working within legal loopholes to avoid consumer protection laws.

One of the keys is that both the mark and the pc swear by the results and the wins. They are both amazed and happy with the "tech" but mostly HOPEFUL that the next action will really fix what is wrong.

Nothing ever gets fixed in either gypsy psychic reading or Scientology except the bank account balances of the perpetrators.

I can understand how this analogy is quite insane to a Scientologist. But, then again, a Scientologist will strap a videocam on their head and go to a strangers house and stay in their front yard for several months.

After we left the church, my friend was still auditing in the field, and we had a guy sit out in front of our house for months in his car, just looking at our house. That's all he did. Just sat there. It was very unnerving. At one point I called the police and told them it looked like someone was staking out the house. They spoke with him, and he left. Later on, some guy knocked on the door saying he was a detective hired by the church to ask us some questions. I told him to LEAVE, which he did after a few complaints LOL Nobody bothered us after that.. fortunately.. that was back in the early 80's...
 
Top