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Scientology is all bad

phenomanon

Canyon
I obviously don't know enough about hypnosis to understand this.. Isn't what you described Very Much Like a parent who sits their child down, the child has been misbehaving, and they look them in the eye and say WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING? How is that any different than Putting in your TRO and asking for an incident? If that's all it takes, we hypnotize folks all the time.. I don't get it?? PS: Was Lawrence West living in Texas? I think we met him once.

Lawrence moved to Texas when he left LA.

As you said in one of your earlier posts, I don't think I make myself understood in my messages. Otherwise, you would 'get' what I am trying to impart. I give up. (not on you, but on the message).

I truly am not so eager to have my opinioin accepted that I will write long essays about it. It is what it is. No one has to agree with it.

Did you also meet Alan Walter?

phenomAnon
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Hahaa.. well that is Funny.. sort of... LOL.. However, NO AUDITOR tells you to do anything out of the ordinary.. if they DID you would be fully cognizant of it, and if it was too weird, you would certainly be allowed to refuse doing it.. Isn't hypnosis started with words like "You are now under my control".. "You are getting very sleepy" "You will not remember what happened".. "You will do as I say" type ideas? I thought that was the point.. that you had agreed to do ANYTHING the hypnotist said.. Obviously we are AWAKE during a session, and can discern what the auditor is asking us to do.

The only reason the folks you are describing probably didn't walk out, was they didn't want to end up on the RPF or something.. out of fear.. not because they couldn't think for themselves.. they were threatened.. That doesn't have anything to do with hypnosis either.. The hypnotist doesn't threaten you do get you to do what he wants..

No. Your idea of hypnotism is from the movies, or something. It's not like that unless it is a stage act, or perhaps what a hypnotherapy client expects to have happen.

A PC is never allowed to 'blow' a session until the Auditor ends it. Auditors are trained to restrain if required. If the Auditor cannot physically control the PC, there's the " HCO Bring Order" solution.

phenomanon
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
Lawrence moved to Texas when he left LA.

As you said in one of your earlier posts, I don't think I make myself understood in my messages. Otherwise, you would 'get' what I am trying to impart. I give up. (not on you, but on the message).

I truly am not so eager to have my opinioin accepted that I will write long essays about it. It is what it is. No one has to agree with it.

Did you also meet Alan Walter?

phenomAnon

No - never met Alan Walter. Did meet Lawrence though :)
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
No. Your idea of hypnotism is from the movies, or something. It's not like that unless it is a stage act, or perhaps what a hypnotherapy client expects to have happen.

A PC is never allowed to 'blow' a session until the Auditor ends it. Auditors are trained to restrain if required. If the Auditor cannot physically control the PC, there's the " HCO Bring Order" solution.

phenomanon

I remember that alot of attention was put on not letting a PC Blow during a session. I thought at the time it was because sometimes they can get very upset recalling an incident, and might want to just run away from the problem.. so you'd want to bring them back and help them thru it.. however, I can see how it could be used as a really scary thing.. not so good :no:

Perhaps my idea of hypnotism IS from the movies.. never tried it.
 

Maddy

Patron
Hahaa.. well that is Funny.. sort of... LOL.. However, NO AUDITOR tells you to do anything out of the ordinary.. if they DID you would be fully cognizant of it, and if it was too weird, you would certainly be allowed to refuse doing it.. Isn't hypnosis started with words like "You are now under my control".. "You are getting very sleepy" "You will not remember what happened".. "You will do as I say" type ideas? I thought that was the point.. that you had agreed to do ANYTHING the hypnotist said.. Obviously we are AWAKE during a session, and can discern what the auditor is asking us to do.

My only experience with hypnotism is with stage acts and even they didn't say things like you're getting sleepy. Most are just literally 'sleep!' and the person is under but I think the whole sleep thing is simply part of the act to show the audience that the person really is hypnotised. You also won't do ANYTHING. If something goes against strong beliefs you WILL refuse to do it, I actually saw that happen on stage. It was something fairly innocent, they were asked to imagine they had met an alien that had 6 breast which fascinated them, this particular girl turned her around in the seat and put her back to the 'alien' and refused to participate. She did however stand up and sing like Eartha Kitt :biggrin:

I would think if a type of hypnotism is used, and since people participating are doing so very willingly and feel their spiritual selves are going to be saved by these sessions, you're probably go along with what ever is asked as long as it was reasonable. They're not telling you to go out and commit murder after all.
 

R6Basic

Patron Meritorious
Hypnosis is an interesting subject.

People who study it can't agree on what it is. Some say that it is a special state of mind while other contend that it is not a state of mind at all but rather a social mechanism.

The social mechanism group state that people will do what a hypnotist tells them so they will be able to fit in with a group or to act up but not be responsible for it because they were 'in a different mind set.'
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
You've mentioned this before and I have to ask, do you think these things you're writing about, "implant station and impregnated with the horrible, horrible implants" etc, are real or actual? I'm not sure that all scientologists believe in their actuality.
To me these horrible things are the hallucinations that the poor OTs have. They are horrible in a sense that they are the symptoms of mental disorders.

I was a Scientologist who did not believe in thetans (I have not read the Xenu story at that time) because I was an atheist at the same time. But I have met just one Scientologist who was an atheist; like me he did not believe in the OT data. All other Scientologists whom I met believed in the implant stations.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Thanks for answering the question. The word "Hallucination" would kind of imply that they see or have some perception of these things. I'm not sure that's the right word. Some might *believe* in them as being actual but I saw no evidence of their actuality (Hubbard's say-so isn't evidence) and that data wasn't sufficient for me to actually "hallucinate" about them.

Reading the Bio you posted in your Profile, you appear to have been a scientologist unlike any other I've known. I've never met an SO Member who had the approach you say you had towards scientology either. It's a very unusual story.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I knew many OT Scientologists who had little concern about the content of OT III data - Xenu, implants, etc.

What DID concern them and what was used to constantly motivate them was the HARD SELL view that 1) the WORLD WAS FUCKED BEYOND BELIEF and that 2) ONLY Scientology could address and handle that.

Since OTs are NOT ALLOWED to EVER discuss their case or even the details of OT III materials with each other (it is considered out-security), there is very little chance for "agreeemnt" about such things (whether one "believes in the OT III scenario" literally or not).
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Thanks for answering the question. The word "Hallucination" would kind of imply that they see or have some perception of these things. I'm not sure that's the right word. Some might *believe* in them as being actual but I saw no evidence of their actuality (Hubbard's say-so isn't evidence) and that data wasn't sufficient for me to actually "hallucinate" about them.

I ran over 500 hours of whole track Dianetics. It was lots of fun. I would come into the org every day all excited about whatever I might "contact today" in session. Out of session, I really didn't think about it much.

I have talked to angels in deep meditation. I have contacted ascended masters. I have communed with Jesus. I have run OT III incidents on BTs and clusters.

All of it has had "positive" effects on me.

Now, the big question is "is it real"?

I can only answer in this way.

The imagination is a little understood and very powerful aspect of Man's mind. Some say that a well-controlled imagination (which probably NOBODY reading this board has developed to any substantial degree) is the doorway to other realities, other dimensions and alternate universes.

Understand that with Scientology, Hubbard doesn't teach about this and how to do it at will. He TRICKS his followers into imagining along certain lines and paths. One is not in control of the whole process. One is manipulated and directed within an exact (arbitrary) framework. Hubbard, having studied the occult, magic and eastern practices, certainly KNEW all about such things. But, he used them AGAINST his folowers, and he did NOT teach to ewpower others.

It all comes down to the eastern theory that all reality is of the nature of illusion. IF that is true, from the basic notion that spirit precedes all manifestation on a fundamental creative level (postulates, considerations), THEN the HUMAN IMAGINATION is Man's personal version or "lower harmonic" of the Creative Power of the entire Universe.

From the eastern viewpoint of Hinduism, any aspect of any reality is of the nature of make-believe. Any of it is a "lie". Any of it is an illusion. So, actually, there is no "real". Not in the sense that it exists separate from you and your mind.

It seems to me that as one gets more familiar with such things, that one also loses any great concern about whether "this is real or not". But also, the line between sanity and madness can be easily crossed with those who delve into such things.

One tends to go the insane route if one immerses oneself totally in ones own "imaginings", while neglecting the "universes of all others". Whereas, if one remains aware of and grounded in the general and detailed agreements and imaginings of ALL OTHERS, one can walk the ever-changing terrain of the imagination without too much trouble or harm.

Personally, I have never had any problem with taking great excursions in my imagination (or mind), and experiencing them with feelings and emotions, just as if they are/were REAL. From an occult view, a person who can't do THAT will never expand out of the limitations of the garden-variety, modern over-commercialized and over-materialistic human being.

There is more truth in Hubbard's writings than most can see. And, reversely, there is more deception and trickery than most can see.
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Thanks for answering the question. The word "Hallucination" would kind of imply that they see or have some perception of these things. I'm not sure that's the right word. Some might *believe* in them as being actual but I saw no evidence of their actuality (Hubbard's say-so isn't evidence) and that data wasn't sufficient for me to actually "hallucinate" about them.

Reading the Bio you posted in your Profile, you appear to have been a scientologist unlike any other I've known. I've never met an SO Member who had the approach you say you had towards scientology either. It's a very unusual story.
Not all people hallucinate when they go OT, you are one of them. But the others do; I read their stories of seeing exploding volcanoes, spaceships, etc.

Hubbard presented PC stories in the book Have You Lived Before; his PCs had outlandish recollections of their past lives. Unless Hubbard made this all up, his PCs were clearly hallucinating.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Not all people hallucinate when they go OT, you are one of them. But the others do; I read their stories of seeing exploding volcanoes, spaceships, etc.

Hubbard presented PC stories in the book Have You Lived Before; his PCs had outlandish recollections of their past lives. Unless Hubbard made this all up, his PCs were clearly hallucinating.

Maybe imagining is a better word? Unless you're talking about people who relived and/or re-experienced something, hallucination might not cover it.
 

Div6

Crusader
Not all people hallucinate when they go OT, you are one of them. But the others do; I read their stories of seeing exploding volcanoes, spaceships, etc.

Hubbard presented PC stories in the book Have You Lived Before; his PCs had outlandish recollections of their past lives. Unless Hubbard made this all up, his PCs were clearly hallucinating.

Well then, I guess Bridey Murphy was hallucinating, Edgar Cayce was a hoax, Carl Jung was deluded and that portion of the earth population that accepts prior incarnations as a reality are all just crazy.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Well then, I guess Bridey Murphy was hallucinating, Edgar Cayce was a hoax, Carl Jung was deluded and that portion of the earth population that accepts prior incarnations as a reality are all just crazy.

There are MANY things going on that few or none truly understand.

There are MANY explanations and theories parading as "facts".

I remember reading a neat book by Jane Roberts (Seth Material) and the fellow speaking through her (like Cayce) discussed how "all lives are actually lived SIMULTANEOUSLY", and the entire idea of "past lives" was wholly INCORRECT.

What we each experience, from our own incredibly personal limited frames of references, may APPEAR as one thing and actually be something else entirely. THAT is VERY TRUE as regards Scientology. It is probably true for a great many things.

And also, the nature of any creative entity (you and me) is that WE EACH DECIDE, DETERMINE AND CREATE OUR OWN REALITY. There is a relationship between YOU and WHAT YOU SEE & EXPERIENCE. It is not passive. This active and dynamic relationship is little understood currently (at least in the west).

The observer greatly influences and affects what is observed. This is the theory of relativity applied to human consciousness. The state of the observer determines WHAT is seen and even HOW it is seen. YOU, as you, directly affect what you see and how you see it. The dividing line or boundary between the objective and the subjective is hazy at best. They are forever entwined in a complex dynamic ever-changing relationship.

From the Moody Blues:

Breathe deep the gathering gloom
Watch lights fade from every room
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day's useless energy is spent
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one
Lonely man cries for love and has none
New mother picks up and suckles her son
Senior citizens wish they were young

Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion
 
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Thanks for answering the question. The word "Hallucination" would kind of imply that they see or have some perception of these things. I'm not sure that's the right word. Some might *believe* in them as being actual but I saw no evidence of their actuality (Hubbard's say-so isn't evidence) and that data wasn't sufficient for me to actually "hallucinate" about them.

Reading the Bio you posted in your Profile, you appear to have been a scientologist unlike any other I've known. I've never met an SO Member who had the approach you say you had towards scientology either. It's a very unusual story.

Now you've made me want to read the Bio, Pandy! :biggrin:

But to on the topic, and this is directed at everyone reading here (HELLO LURKERS!:biggrin:) and not at anyone is particlular:

To get a "memory" of some past experience (real or imagined) to "Turn on with FULL Perceptics..." :eyeroll: :duh:

Come On! That "goal" of auditing INDUCES hallucinations!!! Get real about this!

OF COURSE auditing subjects hallucinated...they hallucinated being killed horribly in past lives, or raping, pillaging, and killing others in past lives... they hallucinated they were re-experiencing traumatic injuries or being operated upon, when they had been unconscious...they hallucinated traveling to planets and conversing with Space Aliens, or having BEEN a Space Alien in a former lifetime, and fighting in some cataclysmic war...they hallucinated conversations or "abuse" they suffered as a sperm, egg or zygote before they were born, as they were being conceived and implanted (in a good way) in the womb... they hallucinated re-experiencing being Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Jesus Christ, other famous figures from history, etc.

OY!!! :duh: Get real and tell the truth about this! :grouch:

We have lots of eye witness reports of Scientologists who actually could no longer distinguish between imagination and reality, following their processing, and not just about whole track (past lives) stuff, too. They raved about listening to the trees talking to them, or being able to wish away clouds, control traffic lights with their minds, influence outcomes of world events with their will, by making "postulates" etc. (remember how the OT's brought down the Berlin wall? :eyeroll:) Hopefully for most, this was a temporary effect. But not for all.

Maybe someone who didn't go too far down the rabbit hole of Scientology didn't see a lot of this. After all, you're not supposed to talk about your own "case", or others' "cases". But I'll bet every Scientologist of any long duration has loads stories to tell about these kinds of "experiences" which were really hallucinations, both having them themselves, and witnessing others who were having them. (Once you lose control of your mind, and your imagination, it's often very hard work to get it back under control again.) Then again, maybe they saw and heard plenty, but are in denial about it, because they were indoctrinated to think that having hallucinations meant spiritual "progress", and was a good thing!

Read some of the old OT successes reported in the Scientology publications...don't make me go look them up for you, do your own research! They are laughable to many folks now, but it's clear that these people were hallucinating, and thinking that their having hallucinations was giving them "wins"!

It's really very sad, and it is criminal, in my view, to foster and encourage hallucinations in a patient who comes for help with some problem or think they have joined up with a religion to "grow spiritually", who trusts the auditor and is paying for the experience, and further to collude with everyone in the Cult that this is a good thing!

I see plenty of evidence that Scientology processing induces and cultivates insanity in it's adherents.

By that I mean real life people who have left the Cult and are trying to restore their lives and their minds to sanity. Some of you know what I am talking about from your own personal experience, because you have lived it, or because someone close to you that you care about has.

Some of you are just A LOT more honest about it than others. :clap:

I say, get real! :flowers2:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Now I know for a fact that you would not be allowed to blow a session like that by any decent Auditor in any Org anywhere.. I remember Ron, in a lecture, describing a struggle when a PC was trying to blow a session, and the Auditor hit him and knocked him out, and dragged him back over the doorstep into the auditing room, and then shouted in his face, "End of Session". :nervous:

Does anybody else remember that?

Okay, maybe Ron made that story up, or was just joking, (for someone who did not want others to J&D, HE sure did it a LOT!) but that was the kind of zealousness he wanted to see...Auditors having COMPLETE control over their PCs.

Very bad juju. :nervous:

"Blowing" an auditing session was a big no no. Auditing rooms always had the auditing table positioned so that the auditor was on the side with the door, and the pc away from the door. There were drills on "controlling bodies," for all auditor trainees, to ensure that the auditor could control the pc's body if necessary.

On the general subject:

'Leaving and leaves' by L. Ron Hubbard, 1976:

"...informing fellow staff members that one is leaving is properly labelled a suppressive act."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1048136.ece

From Professor Steven Kent's notes in his 'Brainwashing in Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force', under the category of 'forcible confinement', addressing events mostly from the 1970s:

"[Former Sea Org members]... spoke about either being forcibly confined themselves... or seeing others who were... Jesse Prince insists that he saw metal cages in the RPF'ss RPF in the basement of the [Los Angeles] Cedars Sinai building [Blue Buildings] where inmates 'were locked up at night to ensure that they wouldn't try to escape'. On the east coast, Dennis Erlich [while on the RPF] joked about his RPF assignment and, in accordance with Hubbard's policy [against joking about the RPF], wound up in the RPF's RPF in Fort Harrison's basement. Guarded down there for ten days, Erlich states that he spent the first two or three days locked in a cage... Tonja Burden swore, 'under pains and penalties of perjury' that she personally observed a person chained to pipes in the boiler room in the Fort Harrison building for a period of weeks... Likewise Hana Whitfield swore that, while she was on the RPF at the Fort Harrison [in Clearwater, Florida], Lyn Froyland was assigned to the RPF's RPF and was chained to a pipe down there [in the basement] for weeks, under guard. She was taken meals and allowed toilet breaks but no other hygiene'."

My first experience, as a non-staff "public person," with someone being involuntarily held in a Scientology organization was second hand and occurred in the early 1970s. I heard about it from a still upset - and very naive - (Class IV, these days it's called Class V) Org staff member (I was naive too) who had encountered someone handcuffed to a large metal table in a part of the Org off-limits to the public.

In those days, being in any way "on lines," and - suddenly and visibly - deciding to leave the premises of an Org was taboo. Why? It was explained that people who wanted to leave were becoming the effect of their reactive minds and that it was compassionate to restrain them from leaving ("blowing").

As Hubbard had explained, "reactive minds do not have rights."

And as just mentioned, even auditing rooms were supposed to have the auditor seated nearer to the door in case the person decided to leave, so the auditor could stop the person from leaving.

One was supposed to handle the person attempting to (visibly and suddenly) leave.

I can recall one minor "PR flap" around an incident where someone in the Org had suddenly "blown," and two staff members followed him out of the Org on to the street, and dragged him back into the Org. (Some "wogs" on the street had complained, thus the "PR flap.") To the Scientological mind, this was an application of "8-C" or "good control." The person's reactive mind had forced him to blow, and Scientologists, connected to Source, the savior of the galaxy L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were applying the tech, and putting ethics in, by 8-Cing him back, so that he could be properly handled, and saved from the dwindling spiral, and eventually travel up the Grade Chart to Total Freedom.

Scientology and false imprisonment:

http://www.scientology-lies.com/imprisonment.html

And to think these things unnecessarily happened because some unintelligent literal-minded people misunderstood Ron's terrific sense of humor!

P.S. Sweetness, that last quip was not directed at you. :) but at Mark A. Baker.
 
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Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
To get a "memory" of some past experience (real or imagined) to "Turn on with FULL Perceptics..." :eyeroll: :duh:

Come On! That "goal" of auditing INDUCES hallucinations!!! Get real about this!

OF COURSE auditing subjects hallucinated...they hallucinated being killed horribly in past lives, or raping, pillaging, and killing others in past lives... they hallucinated they were re-experiencing traumatic injuries or being operated upon, when they had been unconscious...they hallucinated traveling to planets and conversing with Space Aliens, or having BEEN a Space Alien in a former lifetime, and fighting in some cataclysmic war...they hallucinated conversations or "abuse" they suffered as a sperm, egg or zygote before they were born, as they were being conceived and implanted (in a good way) in the womb... they hallucinated re-experiencing being Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Jesus Christ, other famous figures from history, etc.

OY!!! :duh: Get real and tell the truth about this! :grouch:

We have lots of eye witness reports of Scientologists who actually could no longer distinguish between imagination and reality, following their processing, and not just about whole track (past lives) stuff, too. They raved about listening to the trees talking to them, or being able to wish away clouds, control traffic lights with their minds, influence outcomes of world events with their will, by making "postulates" etc. (remember how the OT's brought down the Berlin wall? :eyeroll:) Hopefully for most, this was a temporary effect. But not for all.

Maybe someone who didn't go too far down the rabbit hole of Scientology didn't see a lot of this. After all, you're not supposed to talk about your own "case", or others' "cases". But I'll bet every Scientologist of any long duration has loads stories to tell about these kinds of "experiences" which were really hallucinations, both having them themselves, and witnessing others who were having them. (Once you lose control of your mind, and your imagination, it's often very hard work to get it back under control again.) Then again, maybe they saw and heard plenty, but are in denial about it, because they were indoctrinated to think that having hallucinations meant spiritual "progress", and was a good thing!

Read some of the old OT successes reported in the Scientology publications...don't make me go look them up for you, do your own research! They are laughable to many folks now, but it's clear that these people were hallucinating, and thinking that their having hallucinations was giving them "wins"!

It's really very sad, and it is criminal, in my view, to foster and encourage hallucinations in a patient who comes for help with some problem or think they have joined up with a religion to "grow spiritually", who trusts the auditor and is paying for the experience, and further to collude with everyone in the Cult that this is a good thing!

I see plenty of evidence that Scientology processing induces and cultivates insanity in it's adherents.

By that I mean real life people who have left the Cult and are trying to restore their lives and their minds to sanity. Some of you know what I am talking about from your own personal experience, because you have lived it, or because someone close to you that you care about has.

Some of you are just A LOT more honest about it than others. :clap:

I say, get real! :flowers2:

Sweetness, experiencing an incident with perceptics, which is what you're decribing above, is only done in Dianetics. Scientology processes do not result in re-experiencing - no somatics, no perceptics are turned on by the processes that encompass the lower part of the Scn grade chart. Did you ever make up a story for a child? It's exactly like that - you think of something and you trot it out as an answer. You don't relive it.

You keep asserting that we were all experiencing full blown hallucinations and exes keep trying to explain that that isn't the case. Why should our answers be so easily dismissed? Why is it that personal subjective experience is automatically dismissed as invalid?

I find it odd to have people reject my honest relation of occurrences or dismiss them as a lie because they don't offer further support of some critic's view of Scn. I have absolutely no reason to lie, cover up or otherwise minimize my experiences. I'm an open critic of the church and would be the first to tell anyone who asks that Scn processing may work but it is NOT the way to go. There are cheaper, faster and more impactful methods of therapy today that will not land one in the hands of a destructive cult.

But that doesn't mean I am going to lie to worsen what I experienced, and that's what you seem to be encouraging. I either say that yes, all Scn processing leads to hallucinations or I "lie" according to what you have written here. How is that sane?
 
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Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
"Blowing" an auditing session was a big no no. Auditing rooms always had the auditing table positioned so that the auditor was on the side with the door, and the pc away from the door. There were drills on "controlling bodies," for all auditor trainees, to ensure that the auditor could control the pc's body if necessary.

On the general subject:

'Leaving and leaves' by L. Ron Hubbard, 1976:

"...informing fellow staff members that one is leaving is properly labelled a suppressive act."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1048136.ece

From Professor Steven Kent's notes in his 'Brainwashing in Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force', under the category of 'forcible confinement', addressing events mostly from the 1970s:

"[Former Sea Org members]... spoke about either being forcibly confined themselves... or seeing others who were... Jesse Prince insists that he saw metal cages in the RPF'ss RPF in the basement of the [Los Angeles] Cedars Sinai building [Blue Buildings] where inmates 'were locked up at night to ensure that they wouldn't try to escape'. On the east coast, Dennis Erlich [while on the RPF] joked about his RPF assignment and, in accordance with Hubbard's policy [against joking about the RPF], wound up in the RPF's RPF in Fort Harrison's basement. Guarded down there for ten days, Erlich states that he spent the first two or three days locked in a cage... Tonja Burden swore, 'under pains and penalties of perjury' that she personally observed a person chained to pipes in the boiler room in the Fort Harrison building for a period of weeks... Likewise Hana Whitfield swore that, while she was on the RPF at the Fort Harrison [in Clearwater, Florida], Lyn Froyland was assigned to the RPF's RPF and was chained to a pipe down there [in the basement] for weeks, under guard. She was taken meals and allowed toilet breaks but no other hygiene'."

My first experience, as a non-staff "public person," with someone being involuntarily held in a Scientology organization was second hand and occurred in the early 1970s. I heard about it from a still upset - and very naive - (Class IV, these days it's called Class V) Org staff member (I was naive too) who had encountered someone handcuffed to a large metal table in a part of the Org off-limits to the public.

In those days, being in any way "on lines," and - suddenly and visibly - deciding to leave the premises of an Org was taboo. Why? It was explained that people who wanted to leave were becoming the effect of their reactive minds and that it was compassionate to restrain them from leaving ("blowing").

As Hubbard had explained, "reactive minds do not have rights."

And as just mentioned, even auditing rooms were supposed to have the auditor seated nearer to the door in case the person decided to leave, so the auditor could stop the person from leaving.

One was supposed to handle the person attempting to (visibly and suddenly) leave.

I can recall one minor "PR flap" around an incident where someone in the Org had suddenly "blown," and two staff members followed him out of the Org on to the street, and dragged him back into the Org. (Some "wogs" on the street had complained, thus the "PR flap.") To the Scientological mind, this was an application of "8-C" or "good control." The person's reactive mind had forced him to blow, and Scientologists, connected to Source, the savior of the galaxy L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were applying the tech, and putting ethics in, by 8-Cing him back, so that he could be properly handled, and saved from the dwindling spiral, and eventually travel up the Grade Chart to Total Freedom.

Scientology and false imprisonment:

http://www.scientology-lies.com/imprisonment.html

And to think these things unnecessarily happened because some unintelligent literal-minded people misunderstood Ron's terrific sense of humor!

P.S. Sweetness, that last quip was not directed at you. :) but at Mark A. Baker.

"...informing fellow staff members that one is leaving is properly labelled a suppressive act."

OH I DO NOT LIKE THAT ONE AT ALL.. no sirreeee No wonder nobody wanted to leave in the middle of their session.. RPF TIME :ohmy:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
About not leaving a session, and "the way out is the way through".

I was running R3R Dianetics back in 1976. I had already run quite a bit.

It was the start of the session, and the auditor had me locate some incident. As I got near or close to "spotting the beginning", I suddenly felt HORRIBLY SICK.

I wanted to leave the room immediately. The auditor wouldn't let me. He blocked the door. He told me that I was experiencing a "key-in" of the incident and that it would resolve and go away if I addressed the incident and chain. It made sense, but I wanted to LEAVE NOW!

The auditor didn't threaten me with expulsion if I left the room, or yell. He simply talked to me and explained what was probably happening. I was already familiar with the theories of "key-in" and "key-out" regarding past negative events.

So, I unwillingly and unhappily sat in the chair. I pulled the garbage can near to me and dry-heaved a few times into it. I felt REALLY ILL.

Anyway, he persisted, and I contacted the beginning of the incident again - and my feelings of illness increased. The auditor directed me to go through the incident. I did, but I was not feeling any better. This went on for a few minutes.

Then he had me go earlier-similar and finally "whole track".

Within about 5 minutes I had contacted the earliest similar incident, and the ill feeling beagn to diminish. When I finished running the last incident, and "blew it completely", the feeling of illness also vanished completely. It became real to me that psychosomatic illnesses were real and that the mind could and did affect the body - both negatively and positively.

Was it "all in my imagination"? Well, I puked in a bucket! That was real - it was physical. The point is that even if I did "make it all up", my MIND very much affected my body in exaggerated ways that I had no control over. The horrible sensations turned on very quickly, and intensely, and they turned off just as dramatically.

So, after that I made sure to "flatten every chain", to NEVER "blow a session", and to always finish off "well blown out of my head". As far as my own auditing was concerned, the way out WAS the way through. :confused2:

The thing about "blowing staff and threatening to leave being a suppressive act", THAT is part of the ADMIN TECH. The idea to NOT leave a mental conflict unresolved is a sensible notion within the context of "therapy" (which is how I view Dianetics). I suspect that a good counselor would also prefer that a client "get through" some negative experience, rather than leaving it all excited and unaddressed and unresolved (by ending and leaving a counseling appointment too soon). These notions of not leaving a client stranded "back in some past moment" are NOT unique to Dianetics. They are actually common sense.

The recommendation to "not blow an auditing session", while sort of similar to, is NOT at all the same as the ethics/justice/control admonition to "NEVER LEAVE AN ORG OR POST". But, some here can try to make that A=A=A if they choose to.

It seems to me that it is true that the PAST can and does affect the present for many many people. That is why things such as therapy and abuse counseling exist. Bad experiences seem to linger as some sort of "negative energy" (aka "engrams"), and until these are somehow resolved ones current life is limited and often defined by PAST EVENTS.

For me, Dianetics "worked" as a way to address and handle some of these past unresolved experiences. And even if some or many or all were entirely "made up", the simple act of imagining some CAUSED DIRECT AND IMMEDIATE PHYSICAL AND MENTAL EFFECTS ON ME when initially contacted in session. So, either way, whether real or imagined, the MIND can VERY MUCH affect the emotions and body.

How one chooses to deal with THAT is up to you. You can deny it all if you'd like, but it is fairly common knowledge in psychology circles that the "negative energy" of the PAST very much affects the present for many many many people.
 
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Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
Well then, I guess Bridey Murphy was hallucinating, Edgar Cayce was a hoax, Carl Jung was deluded and that portion of the earth population that accepts prior incarnations as a reality are all just crazy.
You should read Hubbard's book, Have You Lived Before, to see what kind of past lives recollections I was referring to. Portions of the book could be found at Wikipedia. Those are not regular past lives recalls, those are recollections of past lives spent on other planets (Mars, etc)., story of a boy who was attending brothels at a tender age of 6, etc.

I pity a person who would take those "past lives stories" seriously.
 
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