Scientology is all bad

[Div6]

You should read Hubbard's book, Have You Lived Before, to see what kind of past lives recollections I was referring to. Portions of the book could be found at Wikipedia. Those are not regular past lives recalls, those are recollections of past lives spent on other planets (Mars, etc)., story of a boy who was attending brothels at a tender age of 6, etc.

I pity a person who would take those "past lives stories" seriously.

What makes you think I haven't? Do you know the circumstances by which that book was compiled?

 

[Dilpickle]

PS: I'm going to watch a couple episodes of that TV show Criminal Minds.. it sounds like a good one

 

[Demented LRH]

What makes you think I haven't? Do you know the circumstances by which that book was compiled?

I'm not sure how to interpret your response. To me the book stories are not ordinary recollections of past lives but hallucinations.
You might believe in past lives, and I am not going to dispute your beliefs. But the book material looks completely insane to me.

I do not know under which circumstances the book was produced, and I do not think that this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Panda Termint]

A comment on the use of the word "Hallucination".

hallucination (plural hallucinations)

A sensory perception of something that does not exist, arising from disorder of the nervous system, as in delirium tremens; a delusion.

Hallucinations are always evidence of cerebral derangement and are common phenomena of insanity. - W. A. Hammond

The act of hallucinating; a wandering of the mind; an error, mistake or blunder.


I understand how some here are using this word but don't agree that is an accurate word to use in describing so-called past life recall.



There are many terms used in scientology to define the nature of what a PC envisions as his past track mental image pictures in scientology auditing; facsimile (unknowingly created "picture"), mock up (knowingly created "picture"), dub-in (imaginary track), dub-in of dub-in (imaginings about imaginary track) etc etc. but ultimately all these things are understood to be created by the PC. They actually do exist (in the mind) for the PC, are quite real to him/her and are not usually associated with or "arising from disorder of the nervous system" they arise in response to the PC creating them in answer to auditing questions.


Eventually the PC will arrive at the realisation that he/she himself is creating these "52 perceptic (lol) mental image pictures". It's often worded as "I'm mocking it up" or "I'm creating this stuff" or whatever. It's hardly ever worded as "Wow, I was hallucinating that shit!"


Just some thoughts on it.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Well, if you thought for a moment that you might be an SP then you certainly are NOT one! (paraphrased Hubbard)

Corollary: If you thought for a moment that you might be an OT then you are certainly NOT one!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

A comment on the use of the word "Hallucination".

hallucination (plural hallucinations)

A sensory perception of something that does not exist, arising from disorder of the nervous system, as in delirium tremens; a delusion.

Hallucinations are always evidence of cerebral derangement and are common phenomena of insanity. - W. A. Hammond

The act of hallucinating; a wandering of the mind; an error, mistake or blunder.


I understand how some here are using this word but don't agree that is an accurate word to use in describing so-called past life recall.



There are many terms used in scientology to define the nature of what a PC envisions as his past track mental image pictures in scientology auditing; facsimile (unknowingly created "picture"), mock up (knowingly created "picture"), dub-in (imaginary track), dub-in of dub-in (imaginings about imaginary track) etc etc. but ultimately all these things are understood to be created by the PC. They actually do exist (in the mind) for the PC, are quite real to him/her and are not usually associated with or "arising from disorder of the nervous system" they arise in response to the PC creating them in answer to auditing questions.


Eventually the PC will arrive at the realisation that he/she himself is creating these "52 perceptic (lol) mental image pictures". It's often worded as "I'm mocking it up" or "I'm creating this stuff" or whatever. It's hardly ever worded as "Wow, I was hallucinating that shit!"


Just some thoughts on it.

Well stated.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Infinite]

. . . As you indicate, auditing fairly done makes clear that many effects that people feel are psychosomatic and as such can be relieved fairly easily through the process of honestly applying simple auditing techniques . . .

DOX PLOX.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

I'm gonna slap you two with a wet trout!

" hal·lu·ci·na·tion/həˌlo͞osəˈnāSHən/
Noun:
An experience involving the perception of something not present.
Synonyms:
delusion - illusion
More info »Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster"

Don't over think this!

 

[Panda Termint]

Same to you S & L. Try to get this, the "pictures" ARE present, the PC creates them.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Same to you S & L. Try to get this, the "pictures" ARE present, the PC creates them.

Moreover they are recognizable as pictures, and not mistaken as perceptions of the current environment.

Example: get a picture of a bunny.

And as with pictures quite complex information can be communicated without dependence on verbal communication.


Mark A. Baker

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Gotta go~ but will just put this and a link here quickly, and say that it is not just a picture, or considered to be a picture, by the PC, it is considered to be a memory of something "real" that happened in the PC's past life, (or earlier in this life), which is actually a false memory. In other words, an illusion, a delusion, something which is not real. BY DEFINITION, a hallucination.

"Research claims of hypnosis in Scientology

Some researchers believe that Scientology uses a form of what is called authoritative hypnosis. In much of his Scientology and Dianetics writings, Hubbard often redefined common words and invented new words. According to The Anderson Report, Hubbard has done this with hypnotic phenomena also. It is also believed that Hubbard has attributed spiritual significance to the results of the hypnosis. Among the terms that Hubbard has used for documented stages of unconsciousness experiences in hypnosis are:

anaten
boil-off
dope-off
mental image pictures (hypnotic hallucinations)
exteriorization (Dissociation)"

What you two consider to be harmless "mental image pictures", the rest of the world recognizes as hallucinations, when they are believed to be real by the pc.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_hypnosis

And I wish you both, and all, a very good night!

 

[Veda]

Moreover they are recognizable as pictures, and not mistaken as perceptions of the current environment.

Example: get a picture of a bunny.

And as with pictures quite complex information can be communicated without dependence on verbal communication.


Mark A. Baker

Speaking of the "hypnotic" influence of Hubbard over Scientologists, it's interesting to trace the history of the now pervasive term, MENTAL IMAGE PICTURES or just PICTURES.

It seems completely reasonable to a Scientologist that the MIND be composed of PICTURES. It's a given.

Why?

Because Ron said so.

Orignally, Ron used the words "recording" and "facsimile."

Facsimile, as in a copy, not necessarily a visual copy.

Then, years later, came picture, as in a "visual representation."

There is the 1951 book 'Self Analysis', which features many Perceptics with which to recall, and the 1951 list of Perceptics, "The 55 human perceptions," of which sight is just one of fifty five perceptions. (This list was obtained by posting it on a wall and having people add their ideas of "human perceptics.")

Then, around 1955, "mental image picture" was used, and Scientologists began saying mental image picture. Curiously, "mental image picture" seems to have first been used by Hubbard in his hoax "Russian textbook on Psycho-Politics."

This was followed by the 1963 "Time Track" Bulletins which compared the mind to a reel of motion picture film, followed by "Standard Dianetics" a few years later with its emphasis on "mental image pictures" and "what do you see?"

This left in the lurch anyone who didn't "see mental image pictures," even if the person had other perceptics. These unfortunate people were told they were "Black Fives" and that they really did have mental image pictures, but that the pictures were black - occluded. No one wanted to be a Black Five, an Occluded Case, and it caused some folks a high degree of distress to be so classified.

Over 20 years later, motivated by "PR and marketing considerations," Scientology's founder made a series of pronouncements about the "state of Clear," etc. Scientologists immediately had "VGIs" on these pronouncements, and many of those who had been "Black Fives" were now reclassified as "Clears." Happily awarded their Clear certs, they were sent "up lines," check books and credit cards in hand, to do their OT levels.

Non-Scientologists, observing the obvious "hypnotic" influence of L. Ron Hubbard over Scientologists, assumed that it must entirely be due to Scientology's counselling procedures.

 

[Dilpickle]

Mostly, I agree with what you said. I will give a few examples though.

And outside of IMAGINING that such things are possible, and taking actual steps to practice such things in earnest, no amount of book study will EVER give you what "practice of such things" can deliver and provide.

But, truthfully, most people aren't that interested. :confused2:

Most people are content to live as human beings on planet Earth - which is fine. It hasn't been entirely fine for me though . . . . .

I AM interested. I agree with most of this too.. YES.. one can imagine that they are the most intelligent talented person on earth, and without the study and the practice they would not get too far.. You can imagine all kinds of things, which doesn't make them come true.. but if you are on the right track, and imagining success and doing the work, then all kinds of things can happen

 

[Veda]

I AM interested. I agree with most of this too.. YES.. one can imagine that they are the most intelligent talented person on earth, and without the study and the practice they would not get too far.. You can imagine all kinds of things, which doesn't make them come true.. but if you are on the right track, and imagining success and doing the work, then all kinds of things can happen

Maybe you should consider no longer using "OT" to describe this envisioned state.

You'll still be on Earth but you'll be out of the Hubbard box.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

How a Scientologist becomes one......

...

Mental Image Picture Tech......

RON
Close your eyes. Get a picture of a cat.

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
Okay. I did it.

RON
Can you see the cat?

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
Yes.

RON
Okay. Describe it.

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
It is white and very cute.

RON
Okay. Now is that cat real to you?
You can see it, right?

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
Yes. I can see it. It looks real.

RON
Okay. Now get a picture of an alien.

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
I did it. I can see it.

RON
Okay. Is it nice and real to you?

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
Yes, he looks scary.

RON
Okay. Now you are sure that you
didn't get that picture from me, right?


NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
Oh no, I didn't get it from you. It's
definitely something in my mind.

RON
Okay. That's a BT. You are ready for OT III.

NEW SCIENTOLOGIST
A what? BT? What do you mean?
What am I supposed to do now?

RON
You are supposed to pay me $50,000 to get
rid of the BT. There's a lot more than one you know.​

 

[BardoThodol]

Well, if you thought for a moment that you might be an SP then you certainly are NOT one! (paraphrased Hubbard)

I was going to add, but forgot:

One of the sociopaths I've known actually was quite aware he was one. He reveled in the realization. He was incredibly aware, incredibly bright, and completely without a conscience.

And so charming and attentive he could make you feel like you were the only person in the world.

I actually liked the guy, but then again I used to catch poisonous snakes when I was a kid. I understand that liking him while knowing what he was about will be anathema to some, but almost everyone loved this guy.

We used to have interesting conversations about his imaginings and why he didn't act on them. He had no desire to go to jail, but he sure loved to make people miserable. And control them.

He was the one who gave me the concept of a spiritual vampire. He imagined himself to be one, sucking the life out of others and making himself more powerful.

The idea that harming others was wrong made him laugh. He considered morality a ploy of the weak to keep the strong at bay. There was no right or wrong, good or bad.

So, having known this guy, I just took Hubbard's material on the characteristics of a suppressive person with a grain of salt. Thinking you were anti-social certainly didn't exclude you.

 

[Jquepublic]

Gotta go~ but will just put this and a link here quickly, and say that it is not just a picture, or considered to be a picture, by the PC, it is considered to be a memory of something "real" that happened in the PC's past life, (or earlier in this life), which is actually a false memory. In other words, an illusion, a delusion, something which is not real. BY DEFINITION, a hallucination.

"Research claims of hypnosis in Scientology

Some researchers believe that Scientology uses a form of what is called authoritative hypnosis. In much of his Scientology and Dianetics writings, Hubbard often redefined common words and invented new words. According to The Anderson Report, Hubbard has done this with hypnotic phenomena also. It is also believed that Hubbard has attributed spiritual significance to the results of the hypnosis. Among the terms that Hubbard has used for documented stages of unconsciousness experiences in hypnosis are:

anaten
boil-off
dope-off
mental image pictures (hypnotic hallucinations)
exteriorization (Dissociation)"

What you two consider to be harmless "mental image pictures", the rest of the world recognizes as hallucinations, when they are believed to be real by the pc.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_hypnosis

And I wish you both, and all, a very good night!

I would have bolded the SOME RESEARCHERS bit, personally. There is no concensus.

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. While no one can prove the existence of past lives, you cannot provide superior evidence to refute their existence.

I'm sure you were exaggerating for effect when you said that everyone but Mark and Panda see mental image pictures as delusion. You can't possible know what everyone else on the planet is thinking, else you're far more in need of help than any of us addle-brained exes. To believe you can speak for the rest of the world is, well, delusional. I offer my own disagreement with your statements as superior proof that this is so.

 

[Demented LRH]

I think it is hard for people like me to imagine what a hallucination is because we never had one (I think this applies to a vast majority of the members of this board). We have to rely on descriptions of the hallucinations provided by those who had them.

We are forced to decide whether a mental image is a hallucination or not based on its content.

If someone says that he was Napoleon in his past life, this is just a play of imagination -- his current life is dull and boring, and he wants to replace it with more exciting events that took place in his "past life".

But if a PC says that she was raped by a demon in her past life (I described such incident at this thread), this is hardly an attempt to spice up her life -- the incident is too traumatic for her to derive any pleasure from it. This is, undoubtedly, a hallucination caused by Dianetics auditing.

Not all PCs are hallucinating during their auditing sessions; my auditing session had no effect on me, for instance. This is due to a well-known fact that not everyone could be subjected to hypnosis.

But those who could be hypnotised are the most evident Scientology victims.

 

[Panda Termint]

I think it is hard for people like me to imagine what a hallucination is because we never had one (I think this applies to a vast majority of the members of this board). We have to rely on descriptions of the hallucinations provided by those who had them.

We are forced to decide whether a mental image is a hallucination or not based on its content.

If someone says that he was Napoleon in his past life, this is just a play of imagination -- his current life is dull and boring, and he wants to replace it with more exciting events that took place in his "past life".

But if a PC says that she was raped by a demon in her past life (I described such incident at this thread), this is hardly an attempt to spice up her life -- the incident is too traumatic for her to derive any pleasure from it. This is, undoubtedly, a hallucination caused by Dianetics auditing.

Not all PCs are hallucinating during their auditing sessions; my auditing session had no effect on me, for instance. This is due to a well-known fact that not everyone could be subjected to hypnosis.

But those who could be hypnotised are the most evident Scientology victims.

You base your opinions about such things on what?
You seem to have a level of certainty, particularly about auditing and what actually occurs in auditing, that puts most scientologists I've met to shame.
Is there any room in your belief set for alternate opinions about these things or are you unshakably certain that your conclusions are absolutely correct?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

snipped



But those who could be hypnotised are the most evident Scientology victims.

This thread has made me realise that it's those that did training that are possibly the most hurt.

Auditors worked very hard and were genuinely trying to do some good and it must be very difficult to find out that many of their "PC's" didn't achieve the gains that they thought they had and that they now feel contempt for the whole thing.

It's the auditors that I feel especially bad for.