uniquemand
Unbeliever
Yes.
The highest OT level
- Thread starter Ulduz
- Start date
Yes.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Only the ones who are using a skin conductivity meter to verify that they are actually communicating with God and verifying he or she is honoring their requests.
Ulduz
Patron with Honors
Well, I do not know about praying, but I can prove scientifically that past lives do exist.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Please do so.
I know that other people have existed before me. Those are past lives.
What scientific evidence do you have that past lives were lived by me, or by any other currently living person?
Ulduz
Patron with Honors
I do not know much about praying because I never prayed, but I can prove scientifically that past lives do exist.
lkwdblds
Crusader
The probabilities of being right through guessing
Originally Posted by Dulloldfart
My statistics theory isn't up to it. You do it, based on this approximate information which is probably order of magnitude correct.
"Say 60 hours of auditing, maybe an average of 50 relevant commands and responses (response = yup or similar) an hour, maybe 40 of which contained a bare yup with no extra information. Of those 40 cycles, 38 were negative (i.e. required nothing from the auditor except to give the next command) and 2 were positive (i.e. required the auditor to ask, "Did something occur?"). There was not one single false positive, and not one single false negative.
A false positive would be the auditor asking "Did something occur?" when inappropriate, which the pc would find jarring. A false negative would be the auditor simply continuing on and giving the next command on the list.
So, crunch those numbers, and give me a probability of that occurring coincidentally.
If I were computing it, my figuring for the coincidence or fake case would go — rightly or wrongly — let's say the auditor guesses that roughly 1 in 10 commands should result in a positive call, so makes a positive call very roughly every ten commands, and the rest of the time makes a negative call. Well, that's too complicated for me. I can do it on the basis of 40 calls per hour, 60 hours, if it's a 50/50 call that would be 1 chance in 2^2400 that none of them would be wrong. It's less than that, though. Any offers?
If you are determined to say it's impossible, you can try the line that I'm breathing differently or something and the auditor can hear the difference and that's how he does it. And I'm just not aware of the fact."
Paul
Paul, I did a simple math analysis of your problem, trying to keep it as clear and simple as possible.
Let's say 50 commands were given and your auditor responded about 10% of the time, giving a total of 5 responses in the 60 hours of sessions.
If he does not respond, he has a 38 out of 40 chance of being correct, reduce that to 19 chances in 20 attempts. If he does respond, he is really sticking his neck out because he has only 1 chance of 19 in guessing correctly.
Here is how it breaks down:
Being accurate on one response by guessing only - 1 chance in 20 or 5%.
Being accurate on 2 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 squared or 1 in 400 (already, this is only 1/4 of 1%.
Being accurate on 3 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 cubed or 1 in 8,000.
Being accurate on 4 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20x20x20x20 or 1 in 160,000.
Being accurate on 5 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 to the 5th power or 1 chance 3,200,000.
Therrefore, In 60 hours of typical sessions, the chances that the auditor was guessing and not able to do telepathy were only 1 in 3.2 million. If the auditor did another 60 hours later on and got 5 more responses correct, then the probablity of random guessing working would be 3.2 million squared or 1 chance in 10.24 trillion!!
What if the auditor remained silent 5 times in a row and was right every time? What would be the odds of that occuring? To get that answer you simply multiply 19/20 by itself 5 consecutive times. You get about 2.476 million out of 3,200,000 or 77.4%. Here the auditor has a slightly better than 3 in 4 chance of being right if he just keeps quiet.
To go further, if the auditor keeps quiet for 10 consecutive questions, he will be right 59.9% of the time and were he to never respond for an entire set of 50 questions, he would have only a 10% chance of being correct.
With figures such as these, especially only a one in 3,200,000 chances of making 5 responses and being correct on all of them, I would say that the statistical analysis suggests conclusively that the auditor had telepathic abilities.
Lakey
Originally Posted by Dulloldfart
My statistics theory isn't up to it. You do it, based on this approximate information which is probably order of magnitude correct.
"Say 60 hours of auditing, maybe an average of 50 relevant commands and responses (response = yup or similar) an hour, maybe 40 of which contained a bare yup with no extra information. Of those 40 cycles, 38 were negative (i.e. required nothing from the auditor except to give the next command) and 2 were positive (i.e. required the auditor to ask, "Did something occur?"). There was not one single false positive, and not one single false negative.
A false positive would be the auditor asking "Did something occur?" when inappropriate, which the pc would find jarring. A false negative would be the auditor simply continuing on and giving the next command on the list.
So, crunch those numbers, and give me a probability of that occurring coincidentally.
If I were computing it, my figuring for the coincidence or fake case would go — rightly or wrongly — let's say the auditor guesses that roughly 1 in 10 commands should result in a positive call, so makes a positive call very roughly every ten commands, and the rest of the time makes a negative call. Well, that's too complicated for me. I can do it on the basis of 40 calls per hour, 60 hours, if it's a 50/50 call that would be 1 chance in 2^2400 that none of them would be wrong. It's less than that, though. Any offers?
If you are determined to say it's impossible, you can try the line that I'm breathing differently or something and the auditor can hear the difference and that's how he does it. And I'm just not aware of the fact."
Paul
Paul, I did a simple math analysis of your problem, trying to keep it as clear and simple as possible.
Let's say 50 commands were given and your auditor responded about 10% of the time, giving a total of 5 responses in the 60 hours of sessions.
If he does not respond, he has a 38 out of 40 chance of being correct, reduce that to 19 chances in 20 attempts. If he does respond, he is really sticking his neck out because he has only 1 chance of 19 in guessing correctly.
Here is how it breaks down:
Being accurate on one response by guessing only - 1 chance in 20 or 5%.
Being accurate on 2 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 squared or 1 in 400 (already, this is only 1/4 of 1%.
Being accurate on 3 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 cubed or 1 in 8,000.
Being accurate on 4 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20x20x20x20 or 1 in 160,000.
Being accurate on 5 responses in a row by guessing - 1 chance in 20 to the 5th power or 1 chance 3,200,000.
Therrefore, In 60 hours of typical sessions, the chances that the auditor was guessing and not able to do telepathy were only 1 in 3.2 million. If the auditor did another 60 hours later on and got 5 more responses correct, then the probablity of random guessing working would be 3.2 million squared or 1 chance in 10.24 trillion!!
What if the auditor remained silent 5 times in a row and was right every time? What would be the odds of that occuring? To get that answer you simply multiply 19/20 by itself 5 consecutive times. You get about 2.476 million out of 3,200,000 or 77.4%. Here the auditor has a slightly better than 3 in 4 chance of being right if he just keeps quiet.
To go further, if the auditor keeps quiet for 10 consecutive questions, he will be right 59.9% of the time and were he to never respond for an entire set of 50 questions, he would have only a 10% chance of being correct.
With figures such as these, especially only a one in 3,200,000 chances of making 5 responses and being correct on all of them, I would say that the statistical analysis suggests conclusively that the auditor had telepathic abilities.
Lakey
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Ulduz
Patron with Honors
When you use a past live recall procedure correctly, as oppose to what they do in Scientology, your subject of experimentation is able not only to recall visual images from a past life, but also reproduce the language, although he/she may not be able to understand it (correct past lives recall procedures are described in Buddhist Texts). Of course, you have to be able to understand that language; otherwise you might think that this is gibberish.
I understand Turkish although I do not speak it (my grandmother is Turkish), so when one of my subjects begun speaking Turkish I was able to understand what he was saying, although it made no sense to him. I am much better with Russian, which I learned in the High School and later in college, so when one of my subjects switched to Russian I could understand her, too. Most of the time my subjects reproduce the languages unfamiliar to me, but sometimes I get lucky.
LRH twisted the Buddhist procedures beyond recognition, which produced astounding results -- more than one Scientologist claims to be Marilyn Monroe in her past life, a woman “recalled” being raped by a demon, as in the Devil, etc. Mo wonder why a lot of ex-Scientologists do not believe in past lives.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Your description, here, of an event that you haven't provided documents for, concerning a phenomenon that would prove only that your subject began spontaneously speaking Turkish, is not scientific evidence of past lives.
Please try again.
Ulduz
Patron with Honors
If you can provide any other explanation of someone spontaneously speaking Turkish, I’ll gladly accept it. But this is a mighty task, and no one was able to accomplish it so far, although you are welcome to try.
A question of documentation is a different topic. Some of my sessions are videotaped, but, from a lawyers standpoint, this evidence is inadmissible because videotapes can be manufactured, I am quite aware of that. The only way to convince you is to run the procedure on you, which, I suppose, could be done over Skype. The procedure itself is lengthy, on average it takes 8 hours. I doubt anyone has that Skype endurance. An alternative would be to find someone with the knowledge of a past lives recall procedure in your neighborhood
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
I agree. I'm willing to be a pc for such, and have sufficient equipment readily available. Namely:
1. A meter with auto TA reset, so I don't have to be fiddling with the TA to keep the needle on the dial. This is a C-meter, which has the advantage of a dial that can fill a monitor screen.
2. Skype (with a webcam) and a headset.
3. A non-webcam video camera that records on flash memory, and a tripod.
I've discussed this idea since 2004 on and off with Robert. He says he's not unwilling to do it, although he doesn't have a suitable video camera last time I checked. He does have Skype and a webcam, although he's not too keen on auditing via Skype and much prefers a regular phone line. It wouldn't surprise me if Robert died, even at the age of 85, before getting around to it by himself. I think for it to happen would require someone with the necessary video equipment to go around to his home and do the recording.
Maybe some other auditor would be willing and able to do such an experiment.
If you notice, there are very few videos online of people auditing others on camera in real sessions, considering how easy it is to set up. Of course it needs pc permission, but pc consent can be given or denied *after* the session, and vast numbers of pcs must have been video'd while in the CofS, and know that videoing doesn't necessarily ruin the session.
Paul
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hey Ulduz, this is interesting. I don't recall anyone on ESMB or in the FZ making such claims before. If true, I find it impressive that a person is session speaks a language that he is not familiar with.
Yes, it's possible to fake such videotapes. But you seem to be saying that it is almost a routine action for you to do this. If you had videos of several subjects fairly fluently speaking a language unknown to them, and their appropriate amazement, it would be quite impressive. It is not easy to jabber away for a while in an unfamiliar language, even if coached.
Paul
uniquemand
Unbeliever
I can't say I have a credible explanation of such a result (spontaneously speaking a language the person had no knowledge of, prior), but that doesn't mean that either the client hadn't lied to you, he wasn't actually speaking Turkish, but you decided it seemed like Turkish and took it that way, or that you have fabricated the incident in order to pretend such a thing took place.
I have heard such claims, in the past, but never heard of them being validated in laboratory conditions. I'd be happy to interview someone who had such an experience, if I were allowed to consult their family and ensure that they had never spoken that language before. Without that sort of documentation, for me, I cannot believe such an extraordinary claim. It's a great idea, and if you can actually demonstrate it, would go a great distance toward validating the idea of
A) Collective Unconscious possibly containing all languages
B) Past Lives
I'd extend that list, but given that all forms of fraud were ruled out, I think it would prove one of the above. Verification should be extremely easy if this is a regular result of past life therapies of any kind at all. Another key thing would be if the person could remember any historical notes that could be verified, or any technologies that the person was aware of at the time (even simple technologies like an abacus would do, if we didn't already have historical records of it), how they were used, etc.
One interesting thing I've noticed is that nobody who remembers a past life, especially one from another planet, where they were a member of a star-faring civilization, can remember anything specific about their technologies.
If I were to die, tomorrow, and wake up a baby on some foreign world, and did past life regression such that I remembered who I was, what I did, how I lived, etc., I would expect to remember what electrons are, how we used them, in terms of generating electricity, flowing electrons through copper wire, and powering equipment.
This never seems to happen with past life regression therapy. Since so many people have used them, and since such knowledge would be of such great value to them, personally (wealth, recognition), it seems pretty condemning that nobody ever says "hey, I invented the concept of quarks based on my lifetime as an engineer working onboard the Starship Pegasus" or some such thing. Instead, these dumb scientists just keep experimenting, doing things the hard way! Why?
Hatshepsut
Crusader
I'm not in Florida currently but I could take this up with Bob.
The thing is that Bob is relatively a hermit. He has a few long time very close friends. He bought his small place in the shade outright when he was in his late 40s after an early retirement. He has filled it with books and projects everywhere. A bit of a pack rat. He is ascetic. VERY ascetic. He has a passion for research auditing though. It would be like going in to straighten out Howard Hughes to be presentable except that Bob doesn't have the dough that HH had. His genius wouldn't be appreciated through the milieu of extreme bachelorhood. It would take a good shave, a shampoo and a little work and he'd be ready to go.
Ulduz
Patron with Honors
Hello Paul,
I am a novice in this field, but there are true experts out there. One of them leaves in California and runs the Institute of Past Lives. Sorry, I forgot his name. Here, in the USA, we have a TV show called 20/20. They cover all kind of interesting stuff. They featured this person in one of their specials. The 20/20 producers observed the past lives recall procedures to make sure they are not a hoax. As I said before, the procedures are quite lengthy, so they showed the last portions of them. You could see people uttering phrases in languages they have never heard before in their current lives (Chinese, Greek), and describing places they have never visited. One of the show producers traveled to a village near China-Tibet border or what is left of it (Tibet is a part of China now) to confirm that the place described during a past life recall session exists.
The person who does it believes that recalling past lives can cure certain illnesses that a person has in this life. This is something I am not sure about, but he may be right after all.
Smilla
Ordinary Human
FoTi
Crusader
I remember back in '74, an auditor at CCLA telling me that she had a PC who started speaking a foreign language in session that the person hadn't learned in their current life.
Hatshepsut
Crusader
That one can perceive and discern is 'some kind of measuring equipment'.
Yes, I was talking about clusters of identities balled up in one's GPMs. I would use the idea of clusters...or left over minds linked to split off viewpoints whether they are one's own or that of another. They can get tightly compacted into sort of a black ball. The tremendous confusion all settles into a forgotten mass as you go away to abandon the unconfrontable and strive towards living in an area that does not have the same impediments. But when it is triggered all of these old identities can take turns going into restimulation giving you chronically shifting viewpoints in a wild manner. They are all the valences contained in conflicts trying to push towards a goal where you were not able to resolve the problem. If these are other beings they will flash pictures of what they are stuck in and just about anything. If it is your own you feel you are trying to think with a multitude of minds at the same time. It is hard to think at all. You cannot hold a stable viewpoint in the middle of this. At least I couldn't.
If you do not believe in the existence of souls I can see where you'd discount this.
I related this to the meterless auditing because it usually takes another being who is a very old 'foe' to trigger these things to go active. . Someone who once had the power to threaten you with unmocking. Even though it is impossible to unmock a static it is not impossibe to conceive that one could completely foul up the ability of another to operate from a viewpoint. In this case telepathic reach into the area and an effort to help yourself might be called for if you cannot find hassistance to resolve the PTSness.
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Fly-on-the-Wall
Patron
Excuse me for butting in but, has anyone here considered:
There is no 'highest OT level'
because THERE IS NO OT LEVEL!
Never has been, never will be.
If you think there has been any OT level, please give a detailed description of your personal experience of such a state.
Fly
There is no 'highest OT level'
because THERE IS NO OT LEVEL!
Never has been, never will be.
If you think there has been any OT level, please give a detailed description of your personal experience of such a state.
Fly
lkwdblds
Crusader
Excuse me, but your reply misses the point. There are at least 8 OT levels right now being delivered in C of S. If you feel the way you do, then your sentence should read, "There is no highest OT level because THERE IS NO WORKABLE OT LEVEL!"
Of course there are OT levels. They are processes which claim to produce a specific result on people. People pay for them and receive them in C of S. This is a 100 persent certainty. Whether or not they work or have any validity is a completely different matter. That is not the theme of this thread!!
By the way, eight OT levels are delivered now but there are also the "old" OTIV, OT V, OTVI and OTVII which used to be delivered in C of S, prior to the release of NOTS. These four OT levels also exist and as far as I know, were never officially cancelled. They were simply replaced by NOTS, primarily for considerations having to do with generating more income and a never ending source of income. When this was done, they became referred to as "old" without being officially cancelled, C of S management violated one of their main KSW precepts, calling something old or no longer in use which was never officially cancelled.
Therefore, by their own definition, any person or group who did such a thing was deemed suppressive and so they are! Finally, for once, they were correct in labeling themselves a suppressive group!
FINAL COMMENT - There are currently 12 and not 8 OT Levels in existence which have been released by C of S! Four of them went out of usage in 1978 without officially being cancelled.
Lakey
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