The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[afaceinthecrowd]

I think it is more symptomatic of the problem rather than indicative of the actual problem. The reality is more in line with the ubiquitous button on "self-importance".

Too many equate "being important" with "having your own way". The reality is that successful managers ENABLE & EMPOWER others to get products. To the degree others are set up, enabled, and permitted to succeed, valuable goals are attained. Where that does not occur defective products & poor morale are the result.

The button on importance is problematic because the emphasis shifts from "empowering others" to "giving orders" and "obtaining compliance". In the larger society, since so much emphasis is placed on money (i.e. accounting), those in control of the accounting (i.e. money) feel they "MUST be in charge". Unfortunately for the greater good, facility with a balance sheet does not translate into the knowledge necessary to empower & enable others towards the achievement of useful goals.


Mark A. Baker

CPA’s as a profession largely exist by the grace of Federal Fiats i.e. Federal Tax Codes, Securities Law and Federal Banking Statutes. Needless to say Tax, SEC and Banking Laws are needlessly complex and incredibly obfuscating and serve only the Politicians, Accountants and Lawyers. Over 80% of the CPA firms in the US...not to mention Law Practices and hundreds of thousands of Federal employees...would be gone overnight if we went to a VAT or simple flat Tax.

The large majority of management folks in Institutionalized Scn do not have anywhere near the training in the subject or for what they do as do the Sups, Auditors and C/S’s. Also, IMO, there are much more redeeming qualities to Red “Tech” than Green “Tech”.

Face

 

[lkwdblds]

This translates strongly in the auto industry

I have managed a few accountants who thought mighty highly of their management skills and business acumen. This leads me to the opinion that accounting types should never be in charge of an operation. They account. They figure work that has been done by others. Their opinions have value -- as accountants. When placed in charge they continue to account. That's like placing Have before Be. Creative types function at Be and Do.

Ugh!

I have a big interest in the car industry. I've read Lee Iaccoca's books and books about the stories of most of the major can companies, past and present. A theme that occurs over and over with most companies is that when "car guys" such as Robert Lutz, who was #2 man at Chrysler under Iaccoca and later moved to GM, run the design and manufacturing divisions, the companies tend to thrive and do well. When someone who came up the ranks through the accounting department takes charge, as frequently happens, operations began to lose money and often the company's products will fail in the market place and if it is a weaker, marginal company, the company will go under.

Often an accountant in charge will nix a certain item which is popular with the competition or even worse, an item which is new and the company's own engineering department cooked up. A typical example would be curved side glass on a car of the 1950's. Bob Bourke of the Studebaker design team working under Raymond Loewy and Associates designed the classic 1953 Studebaker and wanted curved side glass on the famous coupe models. The Board of Directors, headed by accountant types saw that the curved side glass would add $2 to the cost of each car. In 1953 Studebaker was hoping to sell 250,000 cars so the company's costs would have gone up a half million dollars. This was fairly big money in those days so the accountants nixed the curved glass. What I never understood was why they could not just add $2 to the sales price of the cars. Instead of charging $2,500, they could have charged $2,502. In their defense, the smaller companies such as Studebaker already had to charge more than GM or Ford because those two sold 10 times as many cars and could build for less based on volume. Therefore, management would never consider a price rise to include a nice freature.

Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Kudos to Face and also MAB

CPA’s as a profession largely exist by the grace of Federal Fiats i.e. Federal Tax Codes, Securities Law and Federal Banking Statutes. Needless to say Tax, SEC and Banking Laws are needlessly complex and incredibly obfuscating and serve only the Politicians, Accountants and Lawyers. Over 80% of the CPA firms in the US...not to mention Law Practices and hundreds of thousands of Federal employees...would be gone overnight if we went to a VAT or simple flat Tax.

The large majority of management folks in Institutionalized Scn do not have anywhere near the training in the subject or for what they do as do the Sups, Auditors and C/S’s. Also, IMO, there are much more redeeming qualities to Red “Tech” than Green “Tech”. Face

Nice post by MAB and brilliant follow up by Face. Face's last paragraph which I highlighted in blue is brilliant. In Hubbard's paradigm, how one did in his non Scientology schooling or he or she did in business before entering Scientology, counted for next to nothing. Now that we know more about LRH, and that he was not successful in either his University studies or his career in the U.S. Navy, and never held any other job working for others, we see why his paradigm did not value a good study record or company performance. He was successful as a writer and would consequently give some credence to freelance artists. These considerations were all based primarily on his own life experiences,

Using Hubbardian intuitiion, Yvonne Jentzsch showed how far this type of thinking could go inside the Orgs. I was fully hatted in Treasury and had an exemplary record there in the one and a half years that I had served. (COME ON LAKEY, GET OVER THIS!) The three other staff in Treasury all loved me and the 130 or so other staff members all like and respected me. I was 32, had logged 9 successful years in the aerospace industry, had a Bachelors degree and had full hatting in Treasury and my Able Bodied Seaman Hatting complete and a great track record in CCLA Treasury.

Kitty Georgious was 18 and had just completed high school, had not done any hatting in anything. I think she had just completed the HAS and HQS courses. She was much more outgoing than me and had a lot of spirit of play in her persona. To post Kitty as the new Treasury Secretary over me was an absolutely incredible Management decision!! I mean, if you just think about it, it is a staggering decision to make. Yvonne actually had to weigh all sorts of variables in her mind and then I am sure she discussed the matter with her top execs, Irene Derman, Joyce Myers and Heber Jentzsch. I know Heber was always in my corner and pretty sure that Irene and Joyce would have recommended she stay with me over Kitty. Yvonne was no fool and she had plenty of time to make her decision and I do not think there was any doubt. Her decision was probably made in a few seconds and was set in stone, never to be altered.

With what I know now, I should have quit. I would have been out of aerospace only 18 months and I could undoubtedly have gone back to aerospace as an experienced FORTRAN programmer. Quitting the Sea Org over being passed up for my promotion in favor of such an immature untrained person was definitely the proper decision. Yet, the thought of quitting the Sea Org never even crossed my mind.

Getting back to Face's main point, I don't know for sure what criteria Hubbard used in making his job appointments I only know for sure what he did not use, as described above. His top disciples, such as Yvonne, had Hubbard duplicated pretty well. Perhaps Hubbard himself would have chosen Kitty over me. As the years went by in the Sea Org, having a lot of "WOG World " education and experience tended more and more to be perceived as a negative.

In the Miscavige era, Miscavige, a man with only a 9th grade education, campaigned with zeal to get rid of all Sea Org members with any record of attainment in WOG World education of business experience. Also, he did not want anyone around who actually had worked with Hubbard himself. He carried out a purge of all such people, much the way Stalin carried out a purge against the Russian inteligencia.

Dictatorships seem to have a track record of prefering mavericks to well schooled and more traditional intellectuals.
Lakey

 

[FoTi]

Ya. They weigh your bank account, credit, and other resources.

You're funny. But I guess it's true and that's not so funny.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Nice post by MAB and brilliant follow up by Face. Face's last paragraph which I highlighted in blue is brilliant. In Hubbard's paradigm, how one did in his non Scientology schooling or he or she did in business before entering Scientology, counted for next to nothing. Now that we know more about LRH, and that he was not successful in either his University studies or his career in the U.S. Navy, and never held any other job working for others, we see why his paradigm did not value a good study record or company performance. He was successful as a writer and would consequently give some credence to freelance artists. These considerations were all based primarily on his own life experiences,

Using Hubbardian intuitiion, Yvonne Jentzsch showed how far this type of thinking could go inside the Orgs. I was fully hatted in Treasury and had an exemplary record there in the one and a half years that I had served. (COME ON LAKEY, GET OVER THIS!) The three other staff in Treasury all loved me and the 130 or so other staff members all like and respected me. I was 32, had logged 9 successful years in the aerospace industry, had a Bachelors degree and had full hatting in Treasury and my Able Bodied Seaman Hatting complete and a great track record in CCLA Treasury.

Kitty Georgious was 18 and had just completed high school, had not done any hatting in anything. I think she had just completed the HAS and HQS courses. She was much more outgoing than me and had a lot of spirit of play in her persona. To post Kitty as the new Treasury Secretary over me was an absolutely incredible Management decision!! I mean, if you just think about it, it is a staggering decision to make. Yvonne actually had to weigh all sorts of variables in her mind and then I am sure she discussed the matter with her top execs, Irene Derman, Joyce Myers and Heber Jentzsch. I know Heber was always in my corner and pretty sure that Irene and Joyce would have recommended she stay with me over Kitty. Yvonne was no fool and she had plenty of time to make her decision and I do not think there was any doubt. Her decision was probably made in a few seconds and was set in stone, never to be altered.

With what I know now, I should have quit. I would have been out of aerospace only 18 months and I could undoubtedly have gone back to aerospace as an experienced FORTRAN programmer. Quitting the Sea Org over being passed up for my promotion in favor of such an immature untrained person was definitely the proper decision. Yet, the thought of quitting the Sea Org never even crossed my mind.

Getting back to Face's main point, I don't know for sure what criteria Hubbard used in making his job appointments I only know for sure what he did not use, as described above. His top disciples, such as Yvonne, had Hubbard duplicated pretty well. Perhaps Hubbard himself would have chosen Kitty over me. As the years went by in the Sea Org, having a lot of "WOG World " education and experience tended more and more to be perceived as a negative.

In the Miscavige era, Miscavige, a man with only a 9th grade education, campaigned with zeal to get rid of all Sea Org members with any record of attainment in WOG World education of business experience. Also, he did not want anyone around who actually had worked with Hubbard himself. He carried out a purge of all such people, much the way Stalin carried out a purge against the Russian inteligencia.

Dictatorships seem to have a track record of prefering mavericks to well schooled and more traditional intellectuals.
Lakey

When I knew Kitty she was all PR BS and conniving…sorry Kitty if you’re reading this but that’s my take from 35 years ago.

Many of El Ron’s postings were pretty much just pulled out Hisself’s ass and then blamed someone else when they later F’d up (in Hisself’s opinion), which happened more often than not.

Many postings were made wherein a new, green person that had good test scores and BS was selected over experienced and trained personnel because they had no “history”—nothing “bad” in their PC folders, Ethics Files, the Data Files, hadn’t accumulated any enemies yet (which was very easy to do in the SO), and were "fresh" and not yet worn to a frazzle by life in the SO.

I was one of the folks that DM went after. Da Monster knew that El Ron had a “soft spot” for me, trusted me and I had a rep of “callin’ ‘em as I saws ‘em”, not puttin’ up with a’holes, speakin’ my mind and going toe to toe when f’d with.

“Mavericks”, IMO, is not what Dictatorships prefer. “Maverick” to me is mostly a positive term. Dictatorships prefer heartless, ruthless amoral bastards that are beholden to the System and head hauncho sociopath and can be trusted to always lock-step follow the “Party Line” (Command Intention). Or, as I saw and experienced personally, folks that are effective, well intended, trusting, dedicated and duped.

Face

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

As long as we’re on the subject, there’s another factor that enters in re: Dictatorships and Oppressive Systems... Apparatchiks of all flavors are notoriously bad managers and judges of talent.

The Eastern Block and Soviet Union produced some very talented people—artists, athletes and performers, scientists, engineers, etc., etc. Certainly much talent was exploited and wasted. Even under the oppression of segregation and Jim Crow the US produced Ralph Bunch, Leontyne Price, Vivien Thomas, George Washington Carver, David Blackwell, etc., etc., etc.

People have lives and they possess talents, abilities, interests, drives and gifts. If you are a born artist, musician, mathematician, engineer, organizer, teacher, etc., etc., etc., what are supposed to do? Sit around and go, “Oh this is all too horrible and I’m gonna just wither away and die?” No F’n way! So, you do what you can do within the “System” knowing that you are at risk but, WTF, so is everyone else and life is pulsing in your veins.

The folks in the Eastern Block were pretty much stuck where they were within borders and if you got a little bit too “frisky” you got gulaged or offed. The folks under Jim Crow were stuck where they were within borders and "applications" and "interpretations" of the Law, and if you got a little too “frisky” you got hammered by the system (FBI, KKK, etc.) or offed. A lot of SO folks are “stuck” where they are by mental borders—the delusion of “OT”, El Ron’s imaginary cosmology and the hope of another "Win"—and, if you get the slightest of “Frisky”, you’re gulaged in the RPF or “offed” for your “eternity”.

In the early days of the SO much talent was exploited and wasted and, sometimes, attacked and destroyed. However, it appears that in the later and contemporary SO nearly all talent is attacked and destroyed...unless the talent is for aiding and abetting felonious behavior and activities. Whatta mess!

That's my take on it FWIW.

Face

 

[Terril park]

Oh, Dear . . . .

It seems I have touched a raw nerve on the subject of accountants and the wonnabe manager types . . . . like those wonnabe manager types in the CofS . . . . I was always pissed that they should think that they should, could, ought to manage and be in charge of the actual producers and stars in the orgs . . . the auditors and Tech Div people.

All I have ever seen the admin, manager, HCO personnel type accomplish in any org is destruction of production . . . I swear to God!

Maybe this is why Terril's gang of producers and the FZ types running practices in the filed are getting the results and production they are getting . . . no bloody management types getting in the way and screwing things up!

R

Lol!

I'm OEC/FEBC.

Interned NED.

I do whatever I can to support the FZ.

Have, and continually re-evaluate, policy.

They are my gang. Well.... sort of.

Was Ted who reminded me of the PL re Lines
and terminals.

Top of the scale was associated terminals.

This is us, and really the FZ/independaent
movement.

Currently I have minimal net connection or I'd
post quotes.

 

[Ted]

Lol!

I'm OEC/FEBC.

Interned NED.

I do whatever I can to support the FZ.

Have, and continually re-evaluate, policy.

They are my gang. Well.... sort of.

Was Ted who reminded me of the PL re Lines
and terminals.

Top of the scale was associated terminals.

This is us, and really the FZ/independaent
movement.

Currently I have minimal net connection or I'd
post quotes.

In spite of the bizarro world that the totality of policy creates, there is some good, insightful stuff in there. The PL on Lines and terminals is one such useful policy. It is useful because it gives a manager a way to look at his organization with the intent to optimize it.

My pet peeve with policy is really an accounting function.

If the jobs in an org or mission were costed out, and people were paid what the job was worth, the entire structure of an organization would change for the better -- or it would die.

It would die because the first line of dissem is a book filled with some tech and a lot of hot air to push 1950-style buttons. The other line of dissem is an auditor. But who the hell would want to bring a new pc into that mess these days?

 

[Enthetan]

Nah, not end of rant. A wee story. I knew a lady whose husband was a manager of a store in a supermarket chain. In one store in this chain the manager left and they put a bean counter in charge. Well the bean counter looked at the profitability of the different departments and saw that the little cafe/restaurant (whatever you call it) was losing money. So he thought to close it completely and put in more shelving for product - the "core buisiness" he thought. The overall profitability of the store, far from going up, went down. The bean counter hadn't realised that a lot of his shoppers came there simply because they could get a cup of coffee while they were out - and when they couldn't any longer they took their custom elsewhere.

Nick

I think a consensus is developing that accountants should not be running most businesses. Here's my story. A stock brokerage outfit I did some work for did smashingly well under its founder. He sold it to a company that specializes in accounting. The stock broker culture involved willingness to take risk in order to make money. The accounting culture revolved around avoiding blame for losing money. So they became terrified over some of the things that were happening, that were making the profit margin, because they were uncomfortable about risk. Gross collapsed shortly thereafter.

 

[programmer_guy]

I have managed a few accountants who thought mighty highly of their management skills and business acumen. This leads me to the opinion that accounting types should never be in charge of an operation. They account. They figure work that has been done by others. Their opinions have value -- as accountants. When placed in charge they continue to account. That's like placing Have before Be. Creative types function at Be and Do.

Ugh!

And accountants don't seem to understand engineering.
Engineering is a creative process (well... there are competing processes) that one cannot entirely compare to assembly-line production processes.

When will they ever learn this?

 

[programmer_guy]

CPA’s as a profession largely exist by the grace of Federal Fiats i.e. Federal Tax Codes, Securities Law and Federal Banking Statutes. Needless to say Tax, SEC and Banking Laws are needlessly complex and incredibly obfuscating and serve only the Politicians, Accountants and Lawyers. Over 80% of the CPA firms in the US...not to mention Law Practices and hundreds of thousands of Federal employees...would be gone overnight if we went to a VAT or simple flat Tax.

Face

I agree with you!

However I would favor a sales tax instead of a flat income tax.
In that way no 1st, 4th, nor 5th amendment Constitutional rights are violated (or "voluntarily" given up by intimidation).

 

[thetanic]

Next was a failure. (And so was Objective C)

That's why it's still used, no doubt. NeXT conquered Apple from within.

I'd like to see that movie. Do you have a URL link?

Comes out Friday. It's called "The Social Network." Script by Aaron Sorkin (of West Wing fame).

 

[Mark A. Baker]

CPA’s as a profession largely exist by the grace of Federal Fiats i.e. Federal Tax Codes, Securities Law and Federal Banking Statutes. Needless to say Tax, SEC and Banking Laws are needlessly complex and incredibly obfuscating and serve only the Politicians, Accountants and Lawyers. Over 80% of the CPA firms in the US...not to mention Law Practices and hundreds of thousands of Federal employees...would be gone overnight if we went to a VAT or simple flat Tax.

This is true. Still if you think the banking crisis was a rip-off, try eliminating government imposition of minimal corporate accounting standards and certification of accountants. You ain't seen nothing yet.

As to simplifying the tax system it won't happen precisely because the large corporate & monied interests have too much to lose.

The large majority of management folks in Institutionalized Scn do not have anywhere near the training in the subject or for what they do as do the Sups, Auditors and C/S’s. Also, IMO, there are much more redeeming qualities to Red “Tech” than Green “Tech”.

Face

I agree.


Mark A. Baker

 

[programmer_guy]

That's why it's still used, no doubt. NeXT conquered Apple from within.



Comes out Friday. It's called "The Social Network." Script by Aaron Sorkin (of West Wing fame).

NeXT did not succeed and no longer exists. Objective-C has not been used for software development outside of Apple products (except for one possible offshoot called Objective-J).

I will probably go and see "The Social Network" when it comes to a theater near me. However, Hollyweird movies can never be trusted for being 100% factual. The script writers usually have to cut it into a 1-2 hour script with fictional segues (plus, other made-up social drama that never happened in real life).

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... The stock broker culture involved willingness to take risk in order to make money. ...

One of the most prevalent "justifiers" for grossly unethical behaviors in financial & securities markets ever invented by man.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I agree with you!

However I would favor a sales tax instead of a flat income tax.
In that way no 1st, 4th, nor 5th amendment Constitutional rights are violated (or "voluntarily" given up by intimidation).

Sales taxes are regressive & fall most heavily on those least able to pay. working & low income families. With a sufficiently high "standard deduction" in place a flat tax can be offset sufficiently to protect low income wage earners and still greatly simplify the tax collection system.


Mark A. Baker

 

[programmer_guy]

Sales taxes are regressive & fall most heavily on those least able to pay. working & low income families. With a sufficiently high "standard deduction" in place a flat tax can be offset sufficiently to protect low income wage earners and still greatly simplify the tax collection system.


Mark A. Baker

Having a so-called "standard deduction", which will vary when politics ensue, violates the notion of a flat tax. Otherwise, it won't be a true flat tax.

Besides that, having to provide all that info on a form each year violates the U.S. 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments to the Constitution.

A sales tax on non-essentials will do better. Then people will just control their spending to fit their budget (if they don't have much money).

 

[Hatshepsut]

CPA’s as a profession largely exist by the grace of Federal Fiats i.e. Federal Tax Codes, Securities Law and Federal Banking Statutes. Needless to say Tax, SEC and Banking Laws are needlessly complex and incredibly obfuscating and serve only the Politicians, Accountants and Lawyers. Over 80% of the CPA firms in the US...not to mention Law Practices and hundreds of thousands of Federal employees...would be gone overnight if we went to a VAT or simple flat Tax.

The large majority of management folks in Institutionalized Scn do not have anywhere near the training in the subject or for what they do as do the Sups, Auditors and C/S’s. Also, IMO, there are much more redeeming qualities to Red “Tech” than Green “Tech”.

Face

Tell me about it. I got off the phone today with the IRS very dismayed. They do not even understand their own laws having to do with the banks and the new rules this year. I had to resubmit my docs 4 times. Each time I got a letter back asking me to submit something totally irrelevant as if they had not read my financial data and understood it. There have been newer laws on the books regarding mortgage adjustments and debt write offs etc among others. Some of the folks who work in the IRS office do not have the authority to adjust anything when it comes to bank documents. They just put it in a pile and automatically generate a letter as if they never even looked at the submissions. Why? Because as I learned today, they do not understand the new laws having to do with client/bank dealings. Only a very few up at the top office know what to do and have the thinking skills to figure it all out. Hence my third review of what should have been a very simple tax year.
Memphis is just not the best place from which to have an agent (that you would expect to know the laws) placed on your case.

 

[thetanic]

NeXT did not succeed and no longer exists. Objective-C has not been used for software development outside of Apple products (except for one possible offshoot called Objective-J).

You missed my point.

Not that I'm surprised.

Read what I said.

I will probably go and see "The Social Network" when it comes to a theater near me. However, Hollyweird movies can never be trusted for being 100% factual.

So you want the entire thing to unfold in real time?

 

[Hatshepsut]

There are an unusual number of unnamed guest viewing this thread tonight.