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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Roger,

I would like some advice on BPC in regard to two real people.

One is mid forties, never been audited, spends every nickel she can (I think it is because customers get respect), say $500 a pop. Has been on meds most of her life. Their house is a hoarders house. Three years ago it was all thrown away. Now it is back. I was thinking doing presence, and asking "what's happening?" etc when things pop up. Any other thoughts?


Another is a guy, been an auditor since 1950. Still audits. Left the Co$ on his own determinism. States frankly that the loss of the game is unauditable, can't touch it, etc. Thoughts?


Meds are not an issue unless the person is taking them to remain dependent, stupid and insensitive -- or dependent and falsely jacked up.

As for the disorder, a full battery of objective processes (scio or knowledgism) followed by Hubbard's Order vs Disorder procedure from the PL of the same name. This recommendation is just based on your description and it assumes the person wants a change of condition.

As for the auditor, anything is audit-able. Not everything is itsa-able. The first thing that jumps off the page at me is service fac.

Again, you ain't goin' nowhere without pc cooperation.
 
Well, sight unseen, my think on the above would be along these lines . . . of course, doing a perceive of the client and listening to what they say and what comes out of their mouth would really enable a more precise address :yes:

By the way, the BPC you want to address, is it yours or theirs? :D

On case #1, I don't see this as a BPC sit to handle, but mainly as a case sit. Yes the Presence One process could be applied, so could things like Objectives, SPIEPIR and/or a dose of good old SCS.

Meds, of course are a bit of a bitch :nervous:

But, What about Presence Three? Get her description of what is going on/what she is doing, then ask her, "What Identity of Beingness would do (description of action)?" Then do the identity handling. Pay particular attention to the moods, feelings and sensations involved!

Also, this hoarding might resolve by addressing it as a solution to a problem. Like, "what problem does it solve?"

Also by addressing "connected to (her description of what it is) what pleasant sensation must be experienced?" Handle with good old "Experience/Create" . . . though she might need the undercut version "Part willing/part rather not . . ."

There are a number of other approaches . . . but since she is a never before audited case, these would be doable by her.

On case #2. So, he: "States frankly that the loss of the game is unauditable, can't touch it, etc."

Since he is an auditor he should be able to handle what comes up :yes:

Note that what he states is a "precept." You could use the "Precept handling" in Alan's Clean Slate R/D or even the full clean slate handling on the area.

I don't know what recent tech you've had available to you from the ranch, but there is the recent tech release under the title, "Thoughts Are Things Handling." It was incorporated in a case handling version of Clean Slate . . .
The key question being: "What precepts, beliefs or thoughts do you have about or from (thing/area being addressed)?" ANd then, there is a whole R/D to unlock the encysted running on automatic "thought."

You could also go straight in with "Connected to (area being handled) what precepts, beliefs or thoughts do you have?"

You see (and I know you do) thoughts, considerations and precepts like what he is running on will block any address to the area :yes:

It would have to be removed, then the area can be properly addressed if there is any further need.

And then, if needed, probably a shock handling or the Life Realignment Sequence would put the guy back is good shape and up out of the collapsed universe, game, dream, aspiration.

Shocks are a real killer. Many, many Scios experienced major shocks resulting in crashed universes, collapsed, lost games and catastrophic upsets, et al, when the church went negative and crazy.

Some folks are not fully recovered :no: And by recovered, I mean their Life-Force fully re-empowered and restored under their full knowing control and being applied with full volition toward their own chosen and envisioned positive wants, dreams, aspirations.

Note that word "positive" there . . . many, as a result of the church abuse are on a negative goal of getting even, opposing, getting rid of, avoiding et al, anything except playing the game they really want.

One of the things LRH missed was the full recovering of the prior to the upset/caved-in goal, dream, aspiration and operating paradigm matrix the person was enjoying before the crash. LRH's BPC "Handling" tech really only "found and indicated the "BPC" item, let the guy itsa, and de-accessed the upset but did not take the action to put back in place the full operating game scenario that existed prior to the upset or crash.

Rog


Thank you Big Time!!

I never, while in the church, lost sight of auditing the person in front of me.

It really helps to have the tool kit organized before the session (in my mind) to know the processes I can pull out to handle whatever shows its face.

Generally speaking, my game plan is to get the PC feeling good about themselves, and then with their priorities reasserted, sort out their issues. I'm not driven by what others think or what programs "should" be done.

The idea of doing programs grated on me in the Co$. Taking the PC to a win, and then helping them with the remaining stuff sitting there has most always been my modus operandi.
 
Meds are not an issue unless the person is taking them to remain dependent, stupid and insensitive -- or dependent and falsely jacked up.

As for the disorder, a full battery of objective processes (scio or knowledgism) followed by Hubbard's Order vs Disorder procedure from the PL of the same name. This recommendation is just based on your description and it assumes the person wants a change of condition.

As for the auditor, anything is audit-able. Not everything is itsa-able. The first thing that jumps off the page at me is service fac.

Again, you ain't goin' nowhere without pc cooperation.

what is the Order vs. Disorder PL? i don't recall it.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
what is the Order vs. Disorder PL? i don't recall it.


It's hard to recall something that wasn't called in the first place. (joke) :duh:

It was issued in 1980, long after your departure.

"Order Versus Disorder" HCOPL 14 February 1980. Esto Series 40, Org Series 40, Product Debug Series 9.

A Confusion handling of one's post (or production area) wrapping up with an inspection of the person's living area. It is a long term handling. It is suggested that some areas might be disorderly and not be in Confusion. Those in actual Confusion will relapse and the handling needs to be repeated.

It is not a rote procedure.
 
2 cents

LOL! Good Twin, wonderful to have you join us in posting here, honey!

I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in, simply because I've had some experience working with people very with similar issues. and behaviors. Roger hit on one key thing which any wog counselor worth their salt would address with the first person, the clutter bug and spendoholic. It's essentially a lack of havingness and a lack of real reach that creates this in people, in my experience. This is the key...It is functional behavior for them, even though it seems crazy and problematic to others. By asking non-threatening questions that will cause her to gain some insight, what good purpose does doing this serve in your life? What does this gain or accomplish for you? How is this serving you in some way? Often it is something pretty practical like, I can't have company come over...(so I don't have to entertain my horrid inlaws...) etc.

Sometimes it is a rebellion or a means to get back at a spouse or family, for creating an "unlivable" situation or circumstance in some other way. Infidelity, disrespect, addiction, abandonment, abdication of responsability, etc.

Whether it is a physical brain disfunction, (physical brain trauma affecting impulse control, OCD or an anxiety disorder based on minimal brain damage or disfunction, that shows up on a PET scan) or just a bad habit that has developed over time, the behavior is fueled by anxiety and it is an ongoing attempt to create a safe nest, or universe, and create control where one feels out of control in some aspect of life.

For people raised with lack of material things, or with a deep fear of poverty, often buying way more stuff than they need is a means of compensating and pushing those feelings down or away. Getting real about one's financial situation and creating more havingness can sometimes help handle this.

Sometimes it's simply an empowerment thing. That's why we jokingly call it "retail therapy"! Shopping and buying, feels like a win, you're right about that Carmelo. And I would look further, if you think it's about being respected or treated well as a customer, ask where in this person's life are they not being respected or treated well, or do they perceive that to be true. Perception and reality are not always the same thing, when we're talking brain disfunction.

Shopping or hoarding stuff can become obsessive or addictive like any other self-soothing or self-comforting behavior. Best to replace harmful actions with more beneficial ones, on a gradient. Plan a self-comforting activity that is not shopping for every day of the week, and carry it out. Go out to dinner with a loved one, see a movie with a friend, go talk with a counselor (auditor), work in the garden, get a spa treatment or massage, take a fun class, etc., go dancing with partner, whatever works. Put the money that would be spent on shopping towards a concrete goal, like savings, a trip or a new car. There is another possibility, that this person was raised without much value for money, somebody's spoiled little darling. In that case, it's a whole re-education and character re-building project.

Often people like this are replaying some incident of lack in their lives that feels so strong as to threaten survival. Address that. Sometimes is a desire to provide for others, so create better channels for giving...Sometimes it is a "silent protest" in a passive aggressive way, "we used to entertain a lot and I got sick and tired of catching my husband making passes at the women", etc.

There is always a good functional reason behind such seemingly self-destructive and disfunctional behavior, unless it is just flat-out brain damage and beyond their control (pretty rare). Helping the person find out what those reasons are and to take a good look at if their behavior is really satisfying those needs, or is just numbing them, is overall helping or hindering the quality of their life, will be a win. People in the grip of repeating a negative pattern of behavior ususally need insight as to what is really going on within themselves. It's not about the externals, not about the stuff.

I would want to know what the meds were for.

My battery is going so I will be back later...
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
New Chapter 0 on the Story of CCLA

For anyone who is interested, or all you history buffs, I got some new data in from both Dart Smohen and Janis Grady, Yvonne's daughter and just now got around to adding it to the story published on Christmas day, Dec 25 near the bottom of Page 67 of our posts. Can you believe that in only one week we are on page 95 of replies now. That is amazing. All the new information is what happened just prior to CCLA starting, mainly just a fuller and more accurate time line. Since we had a Chapter # 1, I called the new stuff, Chapter 0. You should like these new updates!
Lakey
 
LOL! Good Twin, wonderful to have you join us in posting here, honey!

I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in, simply because I've had some experience working with people very with similar issues. and behaviors. Roger hit on one key thing which any wog counselor worth their salt would address with the first person, the clutter bug and spendoholic. It's essentially a lack of havingness and a lack of real reach that creates this in people, in my experience. This is the key...It is functional behavior for them, even though it seems crazy and problematic to others. By asking non-threatening questions that will cause her to gain some insight, what good purpose does doing this serve in your life? What does this gain or accomplish for you? How is this serving you in some way? Often it is something pretty practical like, I can't have company come over...(so I don't have to entertain my horrid inlaws...) etc.

Sometimes it is a rebellion or a means to get back at a spouse or family, for creating an "unlivable" situation or circumstance in some other way. Infidelity, disrespect, addiction, abandonment, abdication of responsability, etc.

Whether it is a physical brain disfunction, (physical brain trauma affecting impulse control, OCD or an anxiety disorder based on minimal brain damage or disfunction, that shows up on a PET scan) or just a bad habit that has developed over time, the behavior is fueled by anxiety and it is an ongoing attempt to create a safe nest, or universe, and create control where one feels out of control in some aspect of life.

For people raised with lack of material things, or with a deep fear of poverty, often buying way more stuff than they need is a means of compensating and pushing those feelings down or away. Getting real about one's financial situation and creating more havingness can sometimes help handle this.

Sometimes it's simply an empowerment thing. That's why we jokingly call it "retail therapy"! Shopping and buying, feels like a win, you're right about that Carmelo. And I would look further, if you think it's about being respected or treated well as a customer, ask where in this person's life are they not being respected or treated well, or do they perceive that to be true. Perception and reality are not always the same thing, when we're talking brain disfunction.

Shopping or hoarding stuff can become obsessive or addictive like any other self-soothing or self-comforting behavior. Best to replace harmful actions with more beneficial ones, on a gradient. Plan a self-comforting activity that is not shopping for every day of the week, and carry it out. Go out to dinner with a loved one, see a movie with a friend, go talk with a counselor (auditor), work in the garden, get a spa treatment or massage, take a fun class, etc., go dancing with partner, whatever works. Put the money that would be spent on shopping towards a concrete goal, like savings, a trip or a new car. There is another possibility, that this person was raised without much value for money, somebody's spoiled little darling. In that case, it's a whole re-education and character re-building project.

Often people like this are replaying some incident of lack in their lives that feels so strong as to threaten survival. Address that. Sometimes is a desire to provide for others, so create better channels for giving...Sometimes it is a "silent protest" in a passive aggressive way, "we used to entertain a lot and I got sick and tired of catching my husband making passes at the women", etc.

There is always a good functional reason behind such seemingly self-destructive and disfunctional behavior, unless it is just flat-out brain damage and beyond their control (pretty rare). Helping the person find out what those reasons are and to take a good look at if their behavior is really satisfying those needs, or is just numbing them, is overall helping or hindering the quality of their life, will be a win. People in the grip of repeating a negative pattern of behavior ususally need insight as to what is really going on within themselves. It's not about the externals, not about the stuff.

I would want to know what the meds were for.

My battery is going so I will be back later...


You are correct that you have to assume that there is a rational reason behind most all behaviors.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I started a new thread today, check it out!

I started a new thread just now. It is called BIG BEINGS - Do they exist? Are you one? Check it out! I think it is a hot button and will generate some extremely lively discussion.
Lakey
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I've been catching up on this thread over the past few days - and WOW! what an interesting thread is has become. VWD to all.

I want to comment on the following from Alan and the expansion on it as given over a few posts by Roger and others:


In 2003 Alan wrote:

LOSS OF GAMES and LOSS OF OPPONENTS are possibly the biggest cause of BPC there is.

[...]

Those with the heaviest by-passed charge are stuck in loss of games. By-passed charge by its very nature causes separation, individuation, distance and unreality. Until that by-passed charge is fully handled there will be no real connections. Plus initially when a connection is made and a contact is initiated it will turn on more by-passed charge that needs to be handled. This cycle may take quite sometime to handle before the connectees are comfortable with each other and are free of by-passed charge.
Alan

If I recall rightly Alan also wrote some articles on what he called "The Furies". I don't know whether he links BPC and the Furies two together or not, but I certainly do. The biggest, most raging FURY I have ever experienced in the last many lifetimes is that which turned on during a S.O. mission which had been sent to try and recover me onto staff back in about 1983. Absolute and utter RAGE. And it turned on when I recognised that it had been the culture and behaviour of the Sea Org and its members that had destroyed any chance that Scio had of success in society.

This also ties in with Dennis Stephens’ work in TROM and the Postulate Failure Cycle that he describes so clearly. When a game is ended and there are no positions left to hold or play in that game then a collapse of space and time ensues with its concommitant lack of viewpoint and blackness. Massive encysted charge which is mosty often never handled. These make up the black masses of the GPM.

Interesting too is that this condition is a harmonic of Static itself - No space, No time, No identity to view from. An engram is a tiny tiny version of this.

Alan said on this board somewhere that he has spotted a flaw in Dennis’s work. He would not say what it was and I find it disappointing that he kept his knowledge of this hidden.`
 
this post went off like a depth charge in my consciousness.

I'll return to this later. perhaps in 24 hours.

I've been catching up on this thread over the past few days - and WOW! what an interesting thread is has become. VWD to all.

I want to comment on the following from Alan and the expansion on it as given over a few posts by Roger and others:




If I recall rightly Alan also wrote some articles on what he called "The Furies". I don't know whether he links BPC and the Furies two together or not, but I certainly do. The biggest, most raging FURY I have ever experienced in the last many lifetimes is that which turned on during a S.O. mission which had been sent to try and recover me onto staff back in about 1983. Absolute and utter RAGE. And it turned on when I recognised that it had been the culture and behaviour of the Sea Org and its members that had destroyed any chance that Scio had of success in society.

This also ties in with Dennis Stephens’ work in TROM and the Postulate Failure Cycle that he describes so clearly. When a game is ended and there are no positions left to hold or play in that game then a collapse of space and time ensues with its concommitant lack of viewpoint and blackness. Massive encysted charge which is mosty often never handled. These make up the black masses of the GPM.

Interesting too is that this condition is a harmonic of Static itself - No space, No time, No identity to view from. An engram is a tiny tiny version of this.

Alan said on this board somewhere that he has spotted a flaw in Dennis’s work. He would not say what it was and I find it disappointing that he kept his knowledge of this hidden.`
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
YES

I've been catching up on this thread over the past few days - and WOW! what an interesting thread is has become. VWD to all.

I want to comment on the following from Alan and the expansion on it as given over a few posts by Roger and others:


If I recall rightly Alan also wrote some articles on what he called "The Furies". I don't know whether he links BPC and the Furies two together or not, but I certainly do. The biggest, most raging FURY I have ever experienced in the last many lifetimes is that which turned on during a S.O. mission which had been sent to try and recover me onto staff back in about 1983. Absolute and utter RAGE. And it turned on when I recognised that it had been the culture and behaviour of the Sea Org and its members that had destroyed any chance that Scio had of success in society.

This also ties in with Dennis Stephens’ work in TROM and the Postulate Failure Cycle that he describes so clearly. When a game is ended and there are no positions left to hold or play in that game then a collapse of space and time ensues with its concommitant lack of viewpoint and blackness. Massive encysted charge which is mosty often never handled. These make up the black masses of the GPM.

Interesting too is that this condition is a harmonic of Static itself - No space, No time, No identity to view from. An engram is a tiny tiny version of this.

Alan said on this board somewhere that he has spotted a flaw in Dennis’s work. He would not say what it was and I find it disappointing that he kept his knowledge of this hidden.`

I well remember the FURY I felt when I (rather late) realized that the Sea Org, Miscavige, Rathbun, and Starkey had sold Scientology out to the IRS.
I woke up half of my neighbors with my yelling.

Thank you for your EXCELLENT post. :clap::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
I think I can comment on Alan's notion of a flaw in TROM, even though I've never read any of it.
***************************
****So take this as hearsay and gossip, not as fact. Supposition with no regard to fact or knowledge.****
****************************
If I recall correctly, Dennis Stephen's had a personal polarization on knowledge and some antithetical property to that. He reasoned from there, that his truth was everyone's truth.

If I am correct above, then it would be straightforward to say that Alan (and I, for instance) find this inescapably wrong. Each being has their own separate basic dichotomy, that is basic basic to their GPM track.

If you find what I have written has any merit, I'd be happy to discuss it.

If I'm full of shit, let's drop it.



I've been catching up on this thread over the past few days - and WOW! what an interesting thread is has become. VWD to all.

I want to comment on the following from Alan and the expansion on it as given over a few posts by Roger and others:




If I recall rightly Alan also wrote some articles on what he called "The Furies". I don't know whether he links BPC and the Furies two together or not, but I certainly do. The biggest, most raging FURY I have ever experienced in the last many lifetimes is that which turned on during a S.O. mission which had been sent to try and recover me onto staff back in about 1983. Absolute and utter RAGE. And it turned on when I recognised that it had been the culture and behaviour of the Sea Org and its members that had destroyed any chance that Scio had of success in society.

This also ties in with Dennis Stephens’ work in TROM and the Postulate Failure Cycle that he describes so clearly. When a game is ended and there are no positions left to hold or play in that game then a collapse of space and time ensues with its concommitant lack of viewpoint and blackness. Massive encysted charge which is mosty often never handled. These make up the black masses of the GPM.

Interesting too is that this condition is a harmonic of Static itself - No space, No time, No identity to view from. An engram is a tiny tiny version of this.

Alan said on this board somewhere that he has spotted a flaw in Dennis’s work. He would not say what it was and I find it disappointing that he kept his knowledge of this hidden.`
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
No. Dennis's approach was that LRH missed the bus completely by hunting for an opterm in the bank which supposedly "opposed" the person's own goal. This is why his )LRH's) attempts at goals listing in the early '60's all failed and were abandoned.

Dennis - correctly, in my view - recognised that any goal (postulate) is in fact two postulates; one atr source and one for the recipient. So: "I am cute" amd "Notice me" would form a [ppair of postulates. One is the beingness one adopts, the other is the response on desires from the other person. If you look at it carefully, you'll find all postulates contain this.

The ful;l cycle of postulate decay is too big to go into here so I would refer you to Dennis's fuyll write-ups to be found if yu google onto "Tromhelp".
 
This also ties in with Dennis Stephens’ work in TROM and the Postulate Failure Cycle that he describes so clearly. When a game is ended and there are no positions left to hold or play in that game then a collapse of space and time ensues with its concommitant lack of viewpoint and blackness. Massive encysted charge which is mosty often never handled. These make up the black masses of the GPM.

Interesting too is that this condition is a harmonic of Static itself - No space, No time, No identity to view from. An engram is a tiny tiny version of this.

This may be a little off the mark, in terms of a reply.

When I was a teenager in the 1960s, I was looking for a way to help people. In my quest, I read philosophy, Zen stuff, did drugs, and other activities. I had determined that I was looking for a synthesis of philosophy, religion, and science. When Scientology came into my radar, I thought I had found what I was looking for. Past lives were accounted for, and I could see immediate changes for the better in my friends. What I'm trying to illustrate is my desire to do Scientology was from the position of helping others. I was not looking for help for myself.

With that as background, I did have something bothering me - black mass. I was functioning quite well in life. I was an honor student with acceptable grades (mainly As, some Bs) in an upper middle class high school. I did well on the SAT. My love life was quite good. My friends were largely college students. I was well liked. I was a good swimmer and distance runner. But, as a result of some acid trip, everything I saw was through a grey fog.

I had told my auditors about it. On a GF (green form), "All Black" had shouted out to me, Eddie Wooderson, who couldn't audit himself out of a paper bag, dated an incident and ran me through something a hundred thousand years ago. It got a lot of blow off, but since he was a class Vl auditor and this was a lowly engram, he ended session , and said he'd find me a dianetic auditor to finish me up on it. About 8 months later, I found a friend on the HDA to do it. That incident never touched the mass I was perceiving. Grade 6 and Clear did though! When I saw the grade 6 movie with Ron describing GPMs, I knew I'd found the lodestone. Doing R6EW and all of the CC dichotomies cleaned my perception right up. I was clean through and through.

After going Clear, I got a house, and remodeled it, learned scuba, skiing, and rock climbing in short order. and did the briefing course, started a center. in other words, I got in gear, and put the pedal to the metal.

Yes, engrams are minor blips compared to the masses of GPMs.

.........and having done a few of Alan's courses, I would say there are faster, more sure footed ways of addressing the buggers than cookie cutter grade chart centric Scientology.

finding an auditor, or being an auditor, who addresses what the PC is SITTING IN, is preferable to programs of a general nature for a generic individual.
 
No. Dennis's approach was that LRH missed the bus completely by hunting for an opterm in the bank which supposedly "opposed" the person's own goal. This is why his )LRH's) attempts at goals listing in the early '60's all failed and were abandoned.

Dennis - correctly, in my view - recognised that any goal (postulate) is in fact two postulates; one atr source and one for the recipient. So: "I am cute" amd "Notice me" would form a [ppair of postulates. One is the beingness one adopts, the other is the response on desires from the other person. If you look at it carefully, you'll find all postulates contain this.

The ful;l cycle of postulate decay is too big to go into here so I would refer you to Dennis's fuyll write-ups to be found if yu google onto "Tromhelp".

This sounds a tiny little bit like what I, personally, got out of PEAT.

You've got my attention. I'm off to read TROM.
 
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