The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Blue Spirit]

Yes, You Are Right

That is exactly right. Peter's outrage was never directed toward Hubbard, as I recall.

We, the Mission Holders, were under the mistaken belief that Ron was with us, and we were with Ron. We believed the SO Management was a battery of loose cannon on deck. They were, and still are, very out of touch with public realities. I have no direct perception of scientology since 1989. Nevertheless, I feel confident in making that statement. Evidence abounds across the internet.

You don't get people "into" scientology because of Ron the Great One, The Only One. You get public in because they have the impression you can help them with their difficulties and concerns. And, they have come to place some trust in the people who represent scientology. The amount of force used in registration is inversely proportional to the degree of knowledge about and care for the people being regged.

It doesn't matter how many WHYs are found or how many programs are written to bring new folks in. Even if PR area control was top notch with no bad news regarding scientology, if reps of scientology do not understand the people they propose to help, they will have no people.

SO realities do not cut it on public lines of WISE and Missions. Ron handily set up Div 6 to fail when he wrote degradingly about the Middle Class. Where the hell did he think the money was coming from? It came from people who had jobs, careers, insurance, mortgages, good credit, and inheritances.

And the above was my beef at the Mission Holder's meeting. Management had not a clue. But now I believe it was Ron who did not have a clue and Management was just doing his bidding.

Unfortunately, the Ron implant runs very deep with the SO. It is cemented with physical, mental, and spiritual abuse. Ron had been out of touch since the '50s. Interestingly, it is the '50s tech that many of us most respect. Still, I am finding that, too, dated.

Very good post Lakey.

AT THE END OF HIS LIFE LRH WAS PSYCHOTIC.

As far as planning where the thread should go, I say leave it ALONE,

as it has been a VERY successful action to just let it find its own way by the

input of the good & powerful beings posting here.

I am about to post another thing that is on the subject of the Missions, that

I don't recall reading about yet, that I was witness to.

 

[Blue Spirit]

EXCELLENT POST

Ted, truer words were never spoken! This insult about "don't be pts to the middle class", when it is middle class lifestyles and money which has largely kept the whole corporate fraud operation that is organized Scientology afloat for decades, has bothered me for years. Often it was not people paying money directly for services, a lot of it was paid for by parents and other relatives, borrowed from friends or on credit, etc. How many members of this "church" have gone into debt to go up the bridge? I'll bet the numbers are very high. How many have gone Bankrupt or had their (or someone else's) credit ruined? I'll bet that number is quite large. There is no other "religion" or group that I know of that consistantly operates in this manner.

Ted, Veda, Roger and others, thanks for responding to my request to hear more about the 2nd Mission Holder's Conference. Actually, I am interested in that entire period of Scientology history, because as far as I'm concerned, it was the RUIN of Scientology's ability to be a positive force in the community.

Lakey, it's great that we made 20,000 views so quickly. But don't make this into a numbers game, fun as that is. The quality of the information shared and what's being communicated by us all is what is really important here. Don't you push the river either, in that it is not your responsability to "make" something of this thread. It has it's own life which we all contribute to, just relax a little and enjoy the ride!

Heidrun, so far as I am concerned, the inability to beat the addition to smoking is a form of a death wish, in the classic sense. A wish to come close to death, to skirt it, and beat it, in order to feel more alive. I think smokers need every assistance to stop now, LIKE ANY OTHER ADDICT.

Multiple viewpoints of history are what are needed, to as-is it as fully as possible. Thanks, everyone for sharing.

If a renaming is really needed (which I'm not sure is so), it should have "history" in the title somewhere.

For Pete's sake people, READ BENT'S BOOK if you haven't done so already. Or re-read it, now that you can look and see more info on the Internet, as the case may be.

Excellent post S&L !

All of your points are well said and correct. You are tuned in this morning.

 

[lkwdblds]

Great Post with one Gaffe

Ted, truer words were never spoken! This insult about "don't be pts to the middle class", when it is middle class lifestyles and money which has largely kept the whole corporate fraud operation that is organized Scientology afloat for decades, has bothered me for years. Often it was not people paying money directly for services, a lot of it was paid for by parents and other relatives, borrowed from friends or on credit, etc. How many members of this "church" have gone into debt to go up the bridge? I'll bet the numbers are very high. How many have gone Bankrupt or had their (or someone else's) credit ruined? I'll bet that number is quite large. There is no other "religion" or group that I know of that consistantly operates in this manner.

Ted, Veda, Roger and others, thanks for responding to my request to hear more about the 2nd Mission Holder's Conference. Actually, I am interested in that entire period of Scientology history, because as far as I'm concerned, it was the RUIN of Scientology's ability to be a positive force in the community.

Lakey, it's great that we made 20,000 views so quickly. But don't make this into a numbers game, fun as that is. The quality of the information shared and what's being communicated by us all is what is really important here. Don't you push the river either, in that it is not your responsability to "make" something of this thread. It has it's own life which we all contribute to, just relax a little and enjoy the ride!

Heidrun, so far as I am concerned, the inability to beat the addition to smoking is a form of a death wish, in the classic sense. A wish to come close to death, to skirt it, and beat it, in order to feel more alive. I think smokers need every assistance to stop now, LIKE ANY OTHER ADDICT.

Multiple viewpoints of history are what are needed, to as-is it as fully as possible. Thanks, everyone for sharing.

If a renaming is really needed (which I'm not sure is so), it should have "history" in the title somewhere.

For Pete's sake people, READ BENT'S BOOK if you haven't done so already. Or re-read it, now that you can look and see more info on the Internet, as the case may be.

S and L, This may be your finest post ever, a very nice effort, with good points on lots of subjects. In my opinion, there is one gaffe, however, which I underlined above about me not being necessary and that the thread now has a life of its own and to "just sit back and enjoy the ride". I find that remark extremely amusing and inconsistent since perhaps just two days ago, you found fault with me just for giving Carmelo a lot of the credit by bringing many high level people to the thread. You took offense when I said that I did not do it all but Carmelo helped a lot. Now, two days later, you are saying I am no longer needed. Be consistent please!

I'll tell you this, the thread would have been dead about 1 month ago when we were at 6,700 views and the site was nearly dead for 3 days. I started the restaurant reviews and Carmelo added the DJ's, local radio, local sports and comedian reviews including the immortal Jack Benny folding his arms, looking askance, to the side and saying "Well!" with a deadpan expression. It was me, Carmelo and Jack Benny who kept this thing alive.

I saw how Vinnaire did it and I know the tech of thread hosting and what it takes to do one and get lots of views. Look at my protege, Hiedrun and how well she has been doing with my expired thread on Sex. I think they have passed 5,000 posts and have about 180 replies.

Hint: Lakey will know reveal some of his hidden tech Just look at the number of replies on the biggest read threads such as FCDC or Idenics. Their views are much larger than ours, 60,000 to 80,000 but they have much fewer replies than us, us. Both of those threads have been up for years where this one restarted on October 16 with only 2.200 hits so we have achieved 18,000 since October 16th. The key difference is in replies and why are replies so high? because I acknowledge everybody for posting and acknowledge most of the great insights which are expressed. If you recall my personal stories, it was TR2 which most improved my success in life, including my 2nd dynamic and my work. To keep the thread going, it just requires someone with some insight and writing ability to acknowledge the people who post. It doesn't have to be me but the timing of the acks is also important and I know just when to make them.

By the way, I really like what Ted said about, "If the TA is Moving don't do anything." That pretty much is the correct advice to follow, short and sweet. Thanks also for EP's comments and Blue's comments.
Lakey

P.S. - People ask for demonstrations of miracles showing OT abilities. How about reading and applying TR 2! I mean, Damn IT, a friggin guy out of CCLA Treasury, 39 fucking years ago, getting 20.000 hits in just over 2 months on ESMB, Give me a break! That is an OT abilitiy demonstrated, Q.E.D.! Just like Carmelo became the spiritual being pervading his entire neighborhood and beyond as he so aptly described yesterday, OT abilities don't have to always be remote viewing or intending matter to move. Actually, those things pale in comparison, as examples of OT abilities, to the examples shown by Carmelo and yours truly. - By the way, Q. E. D. is a math term symbolizing 3 Latin words which state that something which is claimed to be true has been demonstrated to be true, something like "Quod Erat Demonstratum". From what I hear, I owe early 50's Scientologists, Jan and Dick Halpern for originating TR 2 back around 1957.

 

[Blue Spirit]

Meeting At the Westwood Mission, Circa 1982

Peter Crundell held a weekend long meeting at the Westwood Mission in the

warm days (probably summer) of 1982. I attended it.

He said it was like a group engram running, and in fact I had a lot of case gain

from that meeting. I don't have the acute memory of Lakey (maybe because of

my lower brain blood pressure >), but I will tell about all that I recall.

Jack Horton and other old timers were there and spoke. On Sunday it was

announced that Bill Franks had been "executed" by Miscavige which brought a

huge unfavorable emotional response from the audience. The guy (name will come later to

me) that worked with Heber spoke, saying he was quiting and would just go off and listen to the PDC lectures. It was a well

run meeting with many speakers and very telling as to the amount of upset created by Miscavige and

company (S.O.). Not many details are forthcoming in my memory, so perhaps others of you were there and can help ???

I do know it felt good to be there even though I knew the "Church" would

disapprove and later at ASHO they had a label for it, which name doesn't fall into place, either.

Anyway in sum many many legitimate grievances were successfully (?) aired

and much charge blown. It was a real defeat that the "Church" prevailed in

their suppression of the Missions, as they were the backbone of Scientology.

Further it is complete testament to LRH's INSANITY THAT HE WOULD DESTROY HIS OWN CREATION.

It reminds me of that movie, "The Bridge On The River Quai" (sp?)

I have three friends who are still in comm with LRH, and some of them go

easier on him than I do, but that doesn't temper my disdain for the way LRH

acted with severe out-ethics, the damage from which is incalculatable.

I should have left in 1982.

 

[Ted]

[...]

Ted, Veda, Roger and others, thanks for responding to my request to hear more about the 2nd Mission Holder's Conference. Actually, I am interested in that entire period of Scientology history, because as far as I'm concerned, it was the RUIN of Scientology's ability to be a positive force in the community.

Scientology had a boom in the early '70s. I watched it peter out 1976-77. In 1978 I went to Tucson and the Mission there. In San Diego the Mission went from tiny book nook, to Boom Town, and then bust. I believe that a significant part of the bust came about when people who were routed to ASHO and AOLA and Flag returned with dreams shattered or, minimally, dreams unfulfilled. The OT levels were not all they were cracked up to be. Scientology's marketing hype outstripped tech delivery. When some of these people return to your field they can't be counted on to bring in others. Another significant contributing factor to the bust was all the admin staff went to Flag for full hatting.

There is no one thing that defines the boom and bust of scientology. My own interests revolved around bringing in new folks. The difficulty with that, there was NEVER a broadly distributed, dissem program. There was money collected for books ads on TV and billboards by Bridge or Pubs, DMSMH sales that is, under the guise of flooding people into your org or mission. To my knowledge this never happened outside of L.A. even though money was collected from all around.

Mike Goldstein and John Galusha ran an effective Book One course bringing new folks into the tech fold. The church took it over and it bombed, not unlike our government trying to run the Mustang Ranch whore house. The government couldn't even make a go of that. Mike's write up is available on the internet.

In Texas, Dean Stokes was having a bang-up time disseminating to church groups. He had the Baptists co-auditing their ruds. He needed help but the church didn't want any part of it. Ultimately, he got Declared for his efforts.

Both Dean and Mike would better tell their stories than I.

On alt.clearing.technology, in 1999 I wrote in reference to the Flag meeting:

At 6:01 PM -0400 8/17/99, Lightnin80 wrote:
>I would love to hear your experience Ted, I was around at that
>time but there are many who were not privy to a great deal
>of this stuff on a personal level.

I was not an insider with privy to any special bits of info. It just so
happen that I was running a mission at the time and that brought me in
contact with other mission people and management. I was at the second
Flag meeting and the first S.F. meeting. I was also at a number of
Mission Holder Conferences including Mazatlan, S.F., and L.A. and those
conferences were a setup for the unrest of the later meetings.

The Flag meetings were an opportunity to run out the 3rd Dyanmic
engram(s) and that process was left uncomplete. Maybe, just maybe it
can be accomplished through the Internet. If anyone can bring the full
story out to be viewed it would be Alan.

Things really didn't add up 3rd dynamically during the Mission Holder
Conference at the Buenaventura in L.A. I think that was 1980. That's
when the PR story was that LRH was totally off the line and during the
conference management reps wouldn't even say his name but kept
referring to him as "the consultant" and cutting what we felt was our
line to LRH thus pissing some of us off. This is also the time the
Mission Network was being reworked and SMI was formed and mission
starter packages were being heavily pushed.

[Starter Packages amounted to books, meters, and some programs to help the Mission Holder get started. Cost: $40,000.

I was not impressed so I did not bend over and spread my cheeks. ]

For the most part I was too busy with training and processing and keeping
the mission alive and I had no interest in "meetings." And when I left the mission --
sometime after the infamous 2nd S.F. meeting --
I left not knowing and without discussion as to what everyone else was doing. Guess it was something in the air.

I'd like to see the story unfold. I am late on the chain of events and
not a significant player.

>It's very helpful and insightful as it connects for those like me
>as to what we may have been picking up empathically
>the dream was collapsing the window of opportunity was
>closed, many sensed it.


Yes, this is it for me.


[Alan's comments are archived. He was a prolific poster on alt.clearing for several years. Just type in the search engine "mission holder" and see what comes up.]

One thing that is key to the destruction of scientology is the violation of session confidentiality. This is done routinely with the bogus sec check statement, "I am not auditing you." Of course it is auditing. Every factor of auditing is right there for the pc to view and experience. Only this time you say something as a pc, your sec checker is writing a report that has to be, by nature of relaying a communication, somewhat an alter-is of what you said or meant. Then the E/O takes it on his evaluative-self to give you shit about it.

I can say from experience that SO staff are a bitch to audit. Why? They are all PTS! They all have problems with their posts, and they have to get and keep the stats up or get slammed. Good auditing requires safe environment and safe terminals.

Okay, I forgot what I was writing...

In 2003 Alan wrote:

LOSS OF GAMES and LOSS OF OPPONENTS are possibly the biggest cause of
BPC there is.

[...]

Those with the heaviest by-passed charge are stuck in loss of games.
By-passed charge by its very nature causes separation, individuation,
distance and unreality. Until that by-passed charge is fully handled
there will be no real connections. Plus initially when a connection is
made and a contact is initiated it will turn on more by-passed charge
that needs to be handled. This cycle may take quite sometime to handle
before the connectees are comfortable with each other and are free of
by-passed charge.
Alan

 

[Ted]

Peter Crundell held a weekend long meeting at the Westwood Mission in the

warm days (probably summer) of 1982. I attended it.

He said it was like a group engram running, and in fact I had a lot of case gain

from that meeting. [...]

It was an attempt to continue what had begun at Flag.

[...]

Further it is complete testament to LRH's INSANITY THAT HE WOULD DESTROY HIS OWN CREATION.

[...]

I would suggest not getting sidetracked from learning all you can about narcissistic personality disorder.

Joanna Ashmun's comments on NPD

Here's a couple of comments relative to your quoted text above:

Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation.

Narcissists are impulsive. They undo themselves by behavior that seems oddly stupid for people as intelligent as they are. Somehow, they don't consider the probable consequences of their actions. It's not clear to me whether they just expect to get away with doing anything they feel like at the moment or whether this impulsiveness is essentially a cognitive shortcoming deriving from the static psychic state with its distorted perception of time.

 

[lkwdblds]

Ted, another blockbuster post, so informative, spot on

Scientology had a boom in the early '70s. I watched it peter out 1976-77. In 1978 I went to Tucson and the Mission there. In San Diego the Mission went from tiny book nook, to Boom Town, and then bust. I believe that a significant part of the bust came about when people who were routed to ASHO and AOLA and Flag returned with dreams shattered or, minimally, dreams unfulfilled. The OT levels were not all they were cracked up to be. Scientology's marketing hype outstripped tech delivery. When some of these people return to your field they can't be counted on to bring in others. Another significant contributing factor to the bust was all the admin staff went to Flag for full hatting.

There is no one thing that defines the boom and bust of scientology. My own interests revolved around bringing in new folks. The difficulty with that, there was NEVER a broadly distributed, dissem program. There was money collected for books ads on TV and billboards by Bridge or Pubs, DMSMH sales that is, under the guise of flooding people into your org or mission. To my knowledge this never happened outside of L.A. even though money was collected from all around.

Mike Goldstein and John Galusha ran an effective Book One course bringing new folks into the tech fold. The church took it over and it bombed, not unlike our government trying to run the Mustang Ranch whore house. The government couldn't even make a go of that. Mike's write up is available on the internet.

In Texas, Dean Stokes was having a bang-up time disseminating to church groups. He had the Baptists co-auditing their ruds. He needed help but the church didn't want any part of it. Ultimately, he got Declared for his efforts.

Both Dean and Mike would better tell their stories than I.

On alt.clearing.technology, in 1999 I wrote in reference to the Flag meeting:

At 6:01 PM -0400 8/17/99, Lightnin80 wrote:
>I would love to hear your experience Ted, I was around at that
>time but there are many who were not privy to a great deal
>of this stuff on a personal level.

I was not an insider with privy to any special bits of info. It just so
happen that I was running a mission at the time and that brought me in
contact with other mission people and management. I was at the second
Flag meeting and the first S.F. meeting. I was also at a number of
Mission Holder Conferences including Mazatlan, S.F., and L.A. and those
conferences were a setup for the unrest of the later meetings.

The Flag meetings were an opportunity to run out the 3rd Dyanmic
engram(s) and that process was left uncomplete. Maybe, just maybe it
can be accomplished through the Internet. If anyone can bring the full
story out to be viewed it would be Alan.

Things really didn't add up 3rd dynamically during the Mission Holder
Conference at the Buenaventura in L.A. I think that was 1980. That's
when the PR story was that LRH was totally off the line and during the
conference management reps wouldn't even say his name but kept
referring to him as "the consultant" and cutting what we felt was our
line to LRH thus pissing some of us off. This is also the time the
Mission Network was being reworked and SMI was formed and mission
starter packages were being heavily pushed.

[Starter Packages amounted to books, meters, and some programs to help the Mission Holder get started. Cost: $40,000.

I was not impressed so I did not bend over and spread my cheeks. ]

For the most part I was too busy with training and processing and keeping
the mission alive and I had no interest in "meetings." And when I left the mission --
sometime after the infamous 2nd S.F. meeting --
I left not knowing and without discussion as to what everyone else was doing. Guess it was something in the air.

I'd like to see the story unfold. I am late on the chain of events and
not a significant player.

>It's very helpful and insightful as it connects for those like me
>as to what we may have been picking up empathically
>the dream was collapsing the window of opportunity was
>closed, many sensed it.


Yes, this is it for me.


[Alan's comments are archived. He was a prolific poster on alt.clearing for several years. Just type in the search engine "mission holder" and see what comes up.]

One thing that is key to the destruction of scientology is the violation of session confidentiality. This is done routinely with the bogus sec check statement, "I am not auditing you." Of course it is auditing. Every factor of auditing is right there for the pc to view and experience. Only this time you say something as a pc, your sec checker is writing a report that has to be, by nature of relaying a communication, somewhat an alter-is of what you said or meant. Then the E/O takes it on his evaluative-self to give you shit about it.

I can say from experience that SO staff are a bitch to audit. Why? They are all PTS! They all have problems with their posts, and they have to get and keep the stats up or get slammed. Good auditing requires safe environment and safe terminals.

Okay, I forgot what I was writing...

In 2003 Alan wrote:

LOSS OF GAMES and LOSS OF OPPONENTS are possibly the biggest cause of
BPC there is.

[...]

Those with the heaviest by-passed charge are stuck in loss of games.
By-passed charge by its very nature causes separation, individuation,
distance and unreality. Until that by-passed charge is fully handled
there will be no real connections. Plus initially when a connection is
made and a contact is initiated it will turn on more by-passed charge
that needs to be handled. This cycle may take quite sometime to handle
before the connectees are comfortable with each other and are free of
by-passed charge.
Alan

I just want to thank you for posting this. It is a classic , right up there with some of Rog's best, Blue Haze, and Dart. You people who really were on the inside have so much knowledge and so much to tell the rest of us. Just an odd comment on the Sea Org members, besides all their other problems, they had no sex life and were practically RPFed if they masturbated. When you go to audit them, right there you are auditing over a present time problem. If they were to say anything bad about policy being incorrect, you could be immediately SP declared and off loaded. "Is this any way to run a Navy." "Is this any way to run a self help group?" What a total psychotic and insane environment to be stuck in and yet, intelligent people still can't see it.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Good examples of these were hitchhikers circa 1970.

I would suggest not getting sidetracked from learning all you can about narcissistic personality disorder.

Joanna Ashmun's comments on NPD

Here's a couple of comments relative to your quoted text above:

Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation.

Narcissists are impulsive. They undo themselves by behavior that seems oddly stupid for people as intelligent as they are. Somehow, they don't consider the probable consequences of their actions. It's not clear to me whether they just expect to get away with doing anything they feel like at the moment or whether this impulsiveness is essentially a cognitive shortcoming deriving from the static psychic state with its distorted perception of time.

An excellent example came to mind while I was reading this. There were a lot of hippy types hitchhiking in the late 60's and early 70's. Just prior to Scn, maybe a nice looking girl would be thumbing a ride and I'd stop. I'd unlock the car door and offer a ride, a boyfriend and a dog would quickly appear out of nowhere and join the girl and all three would jump in. Maybe in the back seat there was a bag of peanuts or something, they would just dig in without asking. I would come to a major intersection about 2 blocks from where they were heading and the the light would turn red. I would say, okay guys, you can hop out here. The man would say, would you mind turning right and driving me to my door and I would say, "No, its only two blocks and the walk will do you some good." The guy would say, "Uh look, we really don't feel like walking, OK", I would say, "get the hell out or I am going to keep going straight and you'll have a lot farther to walk". The people would leave the car, give me the finger and start shouting "Fuck You" to me. I'd start yelling back that they should be more appreciative when they receive help. They all would then voice the same Service Facsimile which was, "Just because you own the car does not make you better than us or give you the right to dis us. If we had the car, we would have driven you right to your door so fuck you." I lived through that for about 6 times and then stopped giving rides to hippy types. Its amazing, they all had the same Service Facs, nearly verbatim.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Blue, one of your coolest posts ever!

Peter Crundell held a weekend long meeting at the Westwood Mission in the

warm days (probably summer) of 1982. I attended it.

He said it was like a group engram running, and in fact I had a lot of case gain

from that meeting. I don't have the acute memory of Lakey (maybe because of

my lower brain blood pressure >), but I will tell about all that I recall.

Jack Horton and other old timers were there and spoke. On Sunday it was

announced that Bill Franks had been "executed" by Miscavige which brought a

huge unfavorable emotional response from the audience. The guy (name will come later to

me) that worked with Heber spoke, saying he was quiting and would just go off and listen to the PDC lectures. It was a well

run meeting with many speakers and very telling as to the amount of upset created by Miscavige and

company (S.O.). Not many details are forthcoming in my memory, so perhaps others of you were there and can help ???

I do know it felt good to be there even though I knew the "Church" would

disapprove and later at ASHO they had a label for it, which name doesn't fall into place, either.

Anyway in sum many many legitimate grievances were successfully (?) aired

and much charge blown. It was a real defeat that the "Church" prevailed in

their suppression of the Missions, as they were the backbone of Scientology.

Further it is complete testament to LRH's INSANITY THAT HE WOULD DESTROY HIS OWN CREATION.

It reminds me of that movie, "The Bridge On The River Quai" (sp?)

I have three friends who are still in comm with LRH, and some of them go

easier on him than I do, but that doesn't temper my disdain for the way LRH

acted with severe out-ethics, the damage from which is incalculatable.

I should have left in 1982.

Blue, one of your coolest posts ever, nice going! On the memory thing, sometimes the thought or name will come to you later if you turn your mind to something new.

Lakey

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Thanks, Ted!

Blue Spirit, thanks for the ack and I wish you had left in 1982, too!

Ted, thanks so much for that very informative post. I am getting a better picture, and will take some time to check our all the areas that you are pointing me to. I do want to really understnd this.

As for Ron, what ever his mental/emotional problems were, it is clear to me that he was a pirate his whole life, and that he was playing his own game and felt totally empowered to change the rules and change the players at a moments notice, doing whatever suited him best at the time. That it all came (and is coming ) to grief in the end doesn't surprise me in a bit.

Lakey, I am not communicating myself clearly to you. Your job in starting and giving initial direction to the thread is already done, and you did it well. Don't push the river means don't try and do work the Universe is already on your side for, and doing for you, as in this thread here and now. I am saying the same thing as Blue did about being in Power. You seemed to be asking us, what do I do now? What I am saying is, relax and enjoy the ride, until such time as there is a dip or lull in activity, and then you can take some action if you feel the need to. My earlier congrats to you stand! No contradiction. It's all good, Buddy!

 

[lkwdblds]

It makes sense, okay I agree. (sort of)

Blue Spirit, thanks for the ack and I wish you had left in 1982, too!

Ted, thanks so much for that very informative post. I am getting a better picture, and will take some time to check our all the areas that you are pointing me to. I do want to really understnd this.

As for Ron, what ever his mental/emotional problems were, it is clear to me that he was a pirate his whole life, and that he was playing his own game and felt totally empowered to change the rules and change the players at a moments notice, doing whatever suited him best at the time. That it all came (and is coming ) to grief in the end doesn't surprise me in a bit.

Lakey, I am not communicating myself clearly to you. Your job in starting and giving initial direction to the thread is already done. Don't push the river means don't try and do work the Universe is already on your side for, and doing for you, as in this thread here and now. I am saying the same thing as Blue did about being in Power. You seemed to be asking us, what do I do now? What I am saying is, relax and enjoy the ride, until such time as there is a dip or lull in activity, and then you can take some action if you feel the need to. My earlier congrats to you stand! No contradiction.

S and L, you cleared things up a lot and I see your point. Your posting quality has really come up from Very Good to Excellent, I have noticed.

You got me thinking about not posting for 3 or 4 days and seeing what happens. I may try that if I have enough will power not to post. I mean my Sex in Scn thread had a new burst of energy without me but this thread is so hot, like Ted and Blue say, don't do anything, don't disconnect. If I disconnect, I will be violating the power formula. Well these problems are the type one does not mind having. Keep up your good work!
Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

With this background, I detect some resentment in your comments and the fact that you believe that Goldstein's Mission Holders' story is not the final word on the Mission Holder's conference. Please correct me and tell me where I am going wrong and what you think I should be doing instead. Your message is just too cryptic for me to grasp its meaning. You know I value your opinioins greatly and respect you greatly. Some of your responses on the thread on Education in Scientology which I ran a few months ago just totally blew me out. Also, I will never forget your brilliant summary of the Sea Org, "Is this any way to run a Navy"'

If you're referring to this account by Goldstein, It's missing a bunch of details that I've seen in other accounts. No single account will have all the data, because no single writer on the outside was involved in all the details.

I do see a long-running campaign by the insiders to get rid of all independent opinion leaders (ie, people whose status as opinion leaders in the field was independent of what Management thought of them, and who could not be easily removed from being opinion leaders). It was a long process that took out not just Mission Holders, but also people like RogerB, field auditors, etc.

Popular field auditors, for example, had to go. Too many people knew them and trusted them, and these people knew where the field auditors lived and had their phone numbers. If you remove a staff member from an org and quietly declare him, his friends don't necessarily know how to get in touch with a staff member except via the org. Field auditors were different, hence the long runnig program (continuing in PT) to make it impossible to operate as a field auditor, with repeated retrains being demanded until the auditor gives up.

 

[Ted]

Blue Spirit, thanks for the ack and I wish you had left in 1982, too!

Ted, thanks so much for that very informative post. I am getting a better picture, and will take some time to check our all the areas that you are pointing me to. I do want to really understnd this.

As for Ron, what ever his mental/emotional problems were, it is clear to me that he was a pirate his whole life, and that he was playing his own game and felt totally empowered to change the rules and change the players at a moments notice, doing whatever suited him best at the time. That it all came (and is coming ) to grief in the end doesn't surprise me in a bit.

[...]

You are welcome. I am a sucker for helping however and whomever I might.

Damn! That's one of the things that got me trapped in scio-world!

As for my harping on and about NPD, understanding this case phenomena answers a whole shit-pile of questions about LRH and scientology--for me.

I am not trying to push this off on anyone as a wrong item. If it is not someone else's item then so be it. But if pondering the overused and abused Key Question, would I want someone else to have the knowledge I now have? Ya, certainly!

After researching NPD, I am left with a new perception on everything the man said or wrote. That gives me a pretty clean slate. The only thing left that I care to address is this: He lied. I missed it. I even thought he was FOS from my first perception of, I still "went in." That one still bugs me but I am working on it.

He lied; I missed it.

To complicate matters a bit, I like what I have seen in the clients I have audited, so I find what he said is a mixed bag of useful information and trap. I can't fault him too much on that as he told me (in his works) to look at scientology for myself and disregard the personalities of scientology.

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks a lot for this post & your observations

If you're referring to this account by Goldstein, It's missing a bunch of details that I've seen in other accounts. No single account will have all the data, because no single writer on the outside was involved in all the details.

I do see a long-running campaign by the insiders to get rid of all independent opinion leaders (ie, people whose status as opinion leaders in the field was independent of what Management thought of them, and who could not be easily removed from being opinion leaders). It was a long process that took out not just Mission Holders, but also people like RogerB, field auditors, etc.

Popular field auditors, for example, had to go. Too many people knew them and trusted them, and these people knew where the field auditors lived and had their phone numbers. If you remove a staff member from an org and quietly declare him, his friends don't necessarily know how to get in touch with a staff member except via the org. Field auditors were different, hence the long runnig program (continuing in PT) to make it impossible to operate as a field auditor, with repeated retrains being demanded until the auditor gives up.

Enthetan, you deserve an ack for this fine piece of work. You write a continuous stream of excellent posts, often coming from a little different viewpoint than many of us assume.

How can an organization perceive that destroying its own Mission Network and its own field auditors practices will assist in its growth and getting its stats up. If this attitude and these policies stem from Green and White management Policies, the green and White Volumes should be gathered up and quitetly burned in the trash cans of planet Earth.

Look, if a guy is making $100,000 a year plus $25,000 in fringe benefits and all for a 40 hour work week outside of Scientology and joins the Org at $2,000 per year with no fringe benefits for a 100 hour work week plus say $3 bucks a day worth of food and a triple deck bunk space in a 10' x 12 ' room with 11 other guys the Org is reaping a harvest of over $200,000 per year per employee. Why are they so eager to break down, batter and beat to hell their employees and then off load them and impose fair game. What is the strategy, what is the game plan. No one has to do an eval on this, the goal is to bring on self destruction for the Org's Management, the Org's employees and the Org's field and then find a false why to blame it on. "Is this any way to run a Navy?"
Lakey

 

[Terril park]

That is exactly right. Peter's outrage was never directed toward Hubbard, as I recall.

We, the Mission Holders, were under the mistaken belief that Ron was with us, and we were with Ron. We believed the SO Management was a battery of loose cannon on deck. They were, and still are, very out of touch with public realities. I have no direct perception of scientology since 1989. Nevertheless, I feel confident in making that statement. Evidence abounds across the internet.

You don't get people "into" scientology because of Ron the Great One, The Only One. You get public in because they have the impression you can help them with their difficulties and concerns. And, they have come to place some trust in the people who represent scientology. The amount of force used in registration is inversely proportional to the degree of knowledge about and care for the people being regged.

It doesn't matter how many WHYs are found or how many programs are written to bring new folks in. Even if PR area control was top notch with no bad news regarding scientology, if reps of scientology do not understand the people they propose to help, they will have no people.

SO realities do not cut it on public lines of WISE and Missions. Ron handily set up Div 6 to fail when he wrote degradingly about the Middle Class. Where the hell did he think the money was coming from? It came from people who had jobs, careers, insurance, mortgages, good credit, and inheritances.

And the above was my beef at the Mission Holder's meeting. Management had not a clue. But now I believe it was Ron who did not have a clue and Management was just doing his bidding.

Unfortunately, the Ron implant runs very deep with the SO. It is cemented with physical, mental, and spiritual abuse. Ron had been out of touch since the '50s. Interestingly, it is the '50s tech that many of us most respect. Still, I am finding that, too, dated.

Wise Ted!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Ron's Psych Eval...

Ted, regarding this: You said, snipped- "As for my harping on and about NPD, understanding this case phenomena answers a whole shit-pile of questions about LRH and scientology--for me.

I am not trying to push this off on anyone as a wrong item. If it is not someone else's item then so be it. But if pondering the overused and abused Key Question, would I want someone else to have the knowledge I now have? Ya, certainly!

After researching NPD, I am left with a new perception on everything the man said or wrote. That gives me a pretty clean slate. The only thing left that I care to address is this: He lied. I missed it. I even thought he was FOS from my first perception of, I still "went in." That one still bugs me but I am working on it.

He lied; I missed it.

To complicate matters a bit, I like what I have seen in the clients I have audited, so I find what he said is a mixed bag of useful information and trap. I can't fault him too much on that as he told me (in his works) to look at scientology for myself and disregard the personalities of scientology."

Ted, I am copying this older post I wrote from another thread on this subject:

"Ron's Psych Eval...
Axie, you are a sweet soul, a very compassionate and ethical person, and I'm proud to know you! Panda, I support you in wishing to cause no further harm to George. Big theta hugs to both of you!

The day Axie's vid came out, there was some talk on chat here by people who felt compassion for George, before we knew who he was or that anyone here knew him personally. Just compassion based on the fact that almost everyone could either recall a time when they might have responded and acted as he did, or have a loved one who would do the same.

I'm very glad that Ax's vid is having such wide viewing, so that people can see the oppositional/defiant behavior of such a dedicated church member. Really brings home the truth of the SP Times interviews, shows that verbal violence is the widespread and systemic default mode that is pervasive in church elite and leadership.

This concept that Ron was seriously mentally ill/emotionally disturbed for much of his life, not just his latter days, is one that is widely held by non-Scientologists, especially critics who have bothered to do a little research on his life history.

Remember when, as a teen, he was pulled out of school and sent cruising with the older man family friend who became his tutor and mentor, who "knew" about the mind and was a student of Freudian Psychology, the event that supposedly started Ron on his quest to understand the workings of the mind? Why on earth would his parents do that, unless he was already showing some signs of mental illness or emotional instability?

Much of his adult behavior conforms to at least one DSM IV described personality disorder at the least. I can pin at least three and probably four on him. Oppositional/Defiant, Narcissistic, Borderline Personality, Histrionic Personality Disorder, take your pick. All apply to his recorded behavior over time. I personally think he was, above all, a textbook sociopath. They are often very charming, charismatic and have forceful, persuasive personalities, and can be quite materially successful in life. They live by their own rules, and don't conform to societies' rules unless compelled to.

Only Scientologists and EX's are even faintly surprised at this concept. It's fairly commonly accepted by the "real world" that Ron had at least one psychotic break, and that much of the space opera, BT's and related tech came from his own personal effort to handle his own mind.

Paul's point about the universal observation of energy is correct, but many cultures give it a totally different, less sinister framework than the BT theory.

Alanzo, I hear where you are coming from, and you are fully entitled to your feelings and viewpoint on this.

However, I'm with Panda and Ax, I feel compassion for George and don't wish any harm to come to him. Sadly, I fear it already has.

I prefer not to frame die-hard loyalist Scientologists as enemies, just to think of them as not having fully woken up to the truth yet, but REDEEMABLE, every one! (I guess that makes me a theety-weety, Al. If so, I'll own it.)

If he gets offloaded, or put on RPF and blows, do you think that he will feel comfortable eventually joining us here? Can we co-create a world where EVERY former Scientologist will eventually feel comfortable joining us here? To figure out "What the f*** just happened" to them, and how they can go about putting a quality life back together, as many here have done/are doing? That's the challenge, as I see it. Love you guys!" -end quote

Ted, I don't know if this helps you (I'm also one of those eager helper/do gooder types) to find more peace and handle those feelings about "He lied, I missed it", but countless people have been taken in by sociopaths. They can be utterly charming and persuasive, very attractive in many ways, until they turn on you and you finally get to see their dark side at last. That is what happened to so many who went in to service in the "church", only to be bitterly betrayed, disillusioned and actively harmed by someone they revered as a Spiritual leader.

 

[Blue Spirit]

MISSING INGREDIENT

Enthetan, you deserve an ack for this fine piece of work. You write a continuous stream of excellent posts, often coming from a little different viewpoint than many of us assume.

How can an organization perceive that destroying its own Mission Network and its own field auditors practices will assist in its growth and getting its stats up. If this attitude and these policies stem from Green and White management Policies, the green and White Volumes should be gathered up and quitetly burned in the trash cans of planet Earth.

Look, if a guy is making $100,000 a year plus $25,000 in fringe benefits and all for a 40 hour work week outside of Scientology and joins the Org at $2,000 per year with no fringe benefits for a 100 hour work week plus say $3 bucks a day worth of food and a triple deck bunk space in a 10' x 12 ' room with 11 other guys the Org is reaping a harvest of over $200,000 per year per employee. Why are they so eager to break down, batter and beat to hell their employees and then off load them and impose fair game. What is the strategy, what is the game plan. No one has to do an eval on this, the goal is to bring on self destruction for the Org's Management, the Org's employees and the Org's field and then find a false why to blame it on. "Is this any way to run a Navy?"
Lakey

The missing ingredient in your evals is CONTINUOUS PSYCHOTIC SUPPRESSION FROM THE TOP DOWN.

Being REASONABLE is suppressive in and of itself because it permits Suppression to continue (LRH paraphrased).

I've had to Eat Crow on this and it isn't fun, believe me.

Almost all of us here are guilty of this, except for a few like RogerB, Challenge, Alan, Mike Goldstein, Purple Haze,

CarmeloOrchards and others leaving at the first sign things had gone wrong or even earlier than that.

 

[lkwdblds]

That's just it, I didn't do an Eval!

The missing ingredient in your evals is CONTINUOUS PSYCHOTIC SUPPRESSION FROM THE TOP DOWN.

Being REASONABLE is suppressive in and of itself because it permits Suppression to continue (LRH paraphrased).

I've had to Eat Crow on this and it isn't fun, believe me.

Almost all of us here are guilty of this, except for a few like RogerB,

Challenge, Alan, Mike Goldstein, Purple Haze, and others leaving at the first

sign things had gone wrong or even earlier than that.

For God Sakes Blue, you are awfully cocky tonight! Well I can handle being critiqued by you. You know my claim of a handled Service Fac. All I asked is being critiqued for something I actually did. In this case I said that no eval is needed and then you critqued me omitting CONTINUOUS PSYCHOTIC SUPPRESSION from my Evals, I mean I get what you are saying and I do agree with your point but I think you should've phrased it differently, maybe, "If you do Evals, be sure you factor in the CONTINUOUS PSYCHOTIC SUPPRESSION from the top down as a prevailing factor before you start your Eval."

Its really no big deal but somehow you may be indicating a wrong item to me which is "not my item" and then I would have to go in for a session. Anyway, you make a good point about the CONTINUOS PSYCHOTIC SUPPRESSION.

Keep up the good work, I can as-is any wrong items which come my way.

I just talked to Mike Goldstein a few days ago and shot the bull for about 20 or 30 minutes. Yes, under Diana's urging, he worked putting a new Book I grass roots type co audit together forming a technical liason with the brilliant 1950's tech specialist, John Galusha. They had a big success in Denver and as a result were invited to put on the seminar at Flag. The Flag trolls watched with disgust as the public was VVGI's and having lots of wins and case gain was being made but not a lot of money was being regged and not enough stats were being kept. Who cared about pc wins and case gains, the whole thing was all about money collected and stats. Flag took over the program, got rid of the wins, and the case gain and substituted stats and more gross income and "Golds" saw what they did to his and Galusha's course and came back to Denver and wrote and sent in his formal resignation to the Church. This was around the time of the second Mission Holders Meeting which was pretty early to get out. If I would have been that smart, I would be sitting on severl hundred thousand dollars more of money and would be retired and able to spend all my time posting on the internet.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

nicely done, Watson.

I've been away from WiFi

What's with Carmelo's latest post, crypticlly attempting to answer Blue Spirit's questions with some mysterious story about how perceptive Dogs and Cats are when Carmelo is in the vicinity. Then I am warned not to copy the answer off of someone else's paper. I can't connect the dots. There is a thread of commonality in a lot of the situations but the one where Carmelo and a stranger just stared at one another for minutes without talking, then realized you lived near each other and became close friends doesn't fit in with the other incidents. EGADS - I THINK I HAVE THE ANSWER!

I think his opening remarks about how he familiarizes himself with an area when he first moves in are the key. In the familiarization process, he doesn't just memorize things that are already existing as ordinary people do but he makes his own copy, so to speak, of that portion of the physical universe. He does it by first familiarization with what already exists there and then by pervading the space thoroughly and establishing a degree of ownership of all the MEST and Life Forms, living in that neighborhood.

A cat is not like a dog, it does its own thing and doesn't get all excited the way a dog does when unusual people and events come into its vicinity. The cat reacting to an intruder is a big tip off. If any person or thing who was not mocked up by him when he constructed his own copy of his neighborhood, appears in his neighborhood, he is immediately alerted through his senses or the senses or one of his mock ups (a surrogate or extension of him). The intruder was not part of his created neighborhood, his cat, in this case an extension of his persona, detected a foreign life form and did what was necessary to drive it out of the neighborhood.

My guess on the neighbor is that this person had done a similar mock up to what he had done, before moving in. They both simultaneously detected foreign persona in theirr privately created mock ups of their neighborhood and each viewed the other thoroughly from every aspect and then simultaneously decided that the other fellow was okay and they each let the other guy into their space and merged the spaces. In fact, part of his initial mock up was to foresee that others might enter hisr space and he provided both for either accepting or rejecting newcommers. Carmelo's admonition to me was so that I would not just read the thread as host but that I would actually try and work out the problem.

Carmelo's goal was to show Blue Spirit how OT Powers can be developed and used in everyday living where they have actual life enhancing benefits and not just show off benefits such as being used for magic tricks. Mocking up, overseeing and making one's neighborhood a safe space is more of an OT ability than intending a door to close without physical force. one does it and normally gets no credit for it but to help Blue out, he offered this puzzle as to how true OT powers can exist and be used to make a safer world.

Lakey enters the scene with his keen insight, is stumped at first and then sees the whole scenario in about 3 flashes of brilliance. The rest is to just turn on his internal printer and start writing. Lakey doesn't have to think about what he is writing much, it just all comes out like automatic writing. If I am correct and figured this out,without being too boastful, I think that I demonstrated several OT abilities. If I am wrong, I walk away with dirt on my face. Lakey strikes again!
Lakey

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Lakey strikes again

LOL! Lakey strikes again sounds like "Destry rides again!"

Happy New Year, Everybody! Be safe, and be happy!