The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Elronius of Marcabia]

Re: Clear and OT

Certainly some Clear and OT effects have occurred during the course of taking COS services. There is no doubt about it, these isolated incidents may number in the thousands or even tens of thousands.

The problem is that the Clear and OT like phenomena are not predictable and controllable. Things just happen unexpectedly, usually when a person has some kind of win or epiphany. It doesn't happen on a one for one basis, connected to certain processes and the OT like ability is not stable and fully under a person's control.

These type of things also happen in other practices as well. They occur frequently but they too are not stable and under a person's control. A typical example might be a guy going up to the altar and accepting Jesus as his savior during a Billy Graham oration. His is told by Billy and others that all his sins have been forgiven and he blows out. Once in a while you see a crippled person throw away their crutches and walk. True, many instances of this are fake but once in a while the real thing happens.

Lot's of us on this board have vestiges of Clear and OT powers. Some powers are even fairly stable but whatever powers people have, they are nowhere near what Hubbard promised!

Towards the end of his life, I believe that Hubbard realized that he was not able to deliver what he had promised. Of course, he never admitted that to his public and kept up the push for more and more money and more power over people's lives. Thus, per his own tech, he was committing continuous overt acts and withholding them from everyone. His tech states that doing so causes a person to reach less and to withdraw and lessen his own power. Thus we have Hubbard suffering from strokes and going into hiding. It is ironic and poetic justice that Hubbard suffered just as his tech predicted for one behaving as he was behaving.

The old adage, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" Proved to be true for LRH.
Lakey

If your a Mormon stuff happens, if yer a Christian stuff happens, if your a Satanist stuff happens and what do you suppose they were doing at the time ?
Witnessing as to paranormal or supernatural events means absolutely didily squat as proof of anything, it's the assignment of causation without the slightest idea
of what really caused it.

 

[Gib]

Re: Clear and OT

If your a Mormon stuff happens, if yer a Christian stuff happens, if your a Satanist stuff happens and what do you suppose they were doing at the time ?
Witnessing as to paranormal or supernatural events means absolutely didily squat as proof of anything, it's the assignment of causation without the slightest idea
of what really caused it.

very true,

that's what hubbard did, he assigned the significance (cause) before a person did.

do these steps, and one becomes clear. do these steps and one becomes OT. Assignment (cause) of significance,

and assignment of evaluation.

Well, how do we know this?

Hint: Hubbard said the way to handle the IRS, or tax collectors, was to assign the significant (cause) before the IRS or tax collector did.

Simple extrapolation to the bridge and all its steps up to [STRIKE]total freedom[/STRIKE] entrapment.

do this step, and now you can talk to anybody about anything, do this step and now you can recognize the source of problems, do this step and now.................LOL

All significance.

 

[Gib]

Re: My take on Dianetics

Thanks for your comments. I did not attempt to evaluate Idenics but rather, I named Idenics only to illustrate that it was possible for improvements to be made to Hubbard's Standard Dianetics. I took one example from my limited exposure to Idenics (only 3 sessions and never reading any book about it) only to illustrate one particular point and I backed up my opinion by giving a detailed explanation of why I considered Idenics to be superior on this one particular point.

Thank you for listing further differences between Dianetics and Idenics. You infer that each element which you state is an improvement which Idenics has achieved over Dianetics. That data is interesting to know but your inferences that each element in Idenics is an improvement on DIanetics is just your opinion since you present no facts to back up any of your inferences.

I tend to agree with you that they seem to be improvements but again, I have no facts to give to back this up. Probably the book on Idenics which you mention does provide some tangible evidence.
Lakey

If you never read the book Idenics,

how can we talk about the differences?

how can we discuss Idenics vs Dianetics?

how can we evaluate?

Here's my proposition. Read the book Idenics. You have read the book Dianetics.

I have read both, and can compare.

so, if we have both read both books, we can now discuss both books and compare notes. Aye

and by books, I mean theories presented by both authors.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Clear and OT

very true,

that's what hubbard did, he assigned the significance (cause) before a person did.

do these steps, and one becomes clear. do these steps and one becomes OT. Assignment (cause) of significance,

and assignment of evaluation.

Well, how do we know this?

Hint: Hubbard said the way to handle the IRS, or tax collectors, was to assign the significant (cause) before the IRS or tax collector did.

Simple extrapolation to the bridge and all its steps up to [STRIKE]total freedom[/STRIKE] entrapment.

do this step, and now you can talk to anybody about anything, do this step and now you can recognize the source of problems, do this step and now.................LOL

All significance.

I can't find anything in your above post which I totally disagree with but I don't fully understand the point you are making. I'm not too familiar with the terms "assignment of significance and assignment of evaluation", did Hubbard use those terms? Of course, assignment of cause as well as assignment of effect played a big part in Dianetics and Scientology.

I want to point out that there are valid courses which help improve one's communication and one's ability to talk to anybody about anything. The Toastmasters Organization offers some techniques and drills which aid one to improve their communication skills, mainly in public speaking but there is definitely a carry over into interpersonal communication as well.

There are university courses designed to help one solve problems in business. There is a whole course of study leading to a degree in Business Administration where you are told to do certain steps to prevent problems or correct existing problems. Of course, these courses of study involve significance so I don't fully understand why you seem to be putting down the concept of "significance".
Lakey

 

[Gib]

Re: My take on Dianetics

If you never read the book Idenics,

how can we talk about the differences?

how can we discuss Idenics vs Dianetics?

how can we evaluate?

Here's my proposition. Read the book Idenics. You have read the book Dianetics.

I have read both, and can compare.

so, if we have both read both books, we can now discuss both books and compare notes. Aye

and by books, I mean theories presented by both authors.

I pose my question to you, Lakey,

based on Ben Franklin Junto club:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junto_(club)

"Franklin describes the formation and purpose of the Junto in his autobiography:

I should have mentioned before, that, in the autumn of the preceding year, [1727] I had form'd most of my ingenious acquaintance into a club of mutual improvement, which we called the Junto; we met on Friday evenings. The rules that I drew up required that every member, in his turn, should produce one or more queries on any point of Morals, Politics, or Natural Philosophy, to be discuss'd by the company; and once in three months produce and read an essay of his own writing, on any subject he pleased.
​

Our debates were to be under the direction of a president, and to be conducted in the sincere spirit of inquiry after truth, without fondness for dispute or desire of victory; and to prevent warmth, all expressions of positiveness in opinions, or direct contradiction, were after some time made contraband, and prohibited under small pecuniary penalties."
​

 

[Gib]

Re: Clear and OT

I can't find anything in your above post which I totally disagree with but I don't fully understand the point you are making. I'm not too familiar with the terms "assignment of significance and assignment of evaluation", did Hubbard use those terms? Of course, assignment of cause as well as assignment of effect played a big part in Dianetics and Scientology.

I want to point out that there are valid courses which help improve one's communication and one's ability to talk to anybody about anything. The Toastmasters Organization offers some techniques and drills which aid one to improve their communication skills, mainly in public speaking but there is definitely a carry over into interpersonal communication as well.

There are university courses designed to help one solve problems in business. There is a whole course of study leading to a degree in Business Administration where you are told to do certain steps to prevent problems or correct existing problems. Of course, these courses of study involve significance so I don't fully understand why you seem to be putting down the concept of "significance".
Lakey

because Hubbard said scientology removes "significance"

but in actuality scientology adds significance. (ie History of man, GPM's, etc, all significance)

ie, a life time to understand it all when in dianetics it was supposed to be simple. LOL

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Clear and OT

because Hubbard said scientology removes "significance"

but in actuality scientology adds significance. (ie History of man, GPM's, etc, all significance)

ie, a life time to understand it all when in dianetics it was supposed to be simple. LOL

Thanks for responding directly to the question I asked you. Where does Hubbard say "scientology removes "significance"? Can you cite a reference?

I know that in study tech, Hubbard talks about the harm of studying a subject without having any mass present, i.e., he talks about studying tractors and says that if you just read about tractors, it is all pure significance and the student will exhibit certain negative physical and mental characteristics. He says that a photo provides a promise of the mass of a tractor but the best way to study tractors is to have an actual tractor there for the students so that they can experience its mass.

I guess that by having the mass present in a study environment, the significance will be lessened but I don't consider it to be removed. One does need some significance when engaged in a study. Hubbard wanted people to have a conceptual understanding of any subject which you study but during the period when you learn the subject you must read words from a page and that involves significance.

Who said it takes a lifetime to understand it all? You can do a course that might take 3 or 4 months and includes running Dianetics successfully on people for a certain number of hours and then you understand Dianetics. I know because I did exactly that in the early 1970's.

I really do appreciate your reply, it really helped me to see where you were coming from.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: More from Mama

For all you Mama fans, Mama just put up a new post for me to forward to ESMB. Here it is:

RIP Mike Nichols

Diane Sawyer's husband

I first encountered Mike Nichols' genius with his classic routines with Elaine May

[video=youtube;N5pXggZIr6I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5pXggZIr6I[/video]

Laurie Noonan and I went to see "The Graduate" when it first came out. It was the breakthrough job for Dustin Hoffman

''''''

[video=youtube;PSxihhBzCjk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk[/video]

[video=youtube;-3lKbMBab18]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3lKbMBab18[/video]

I loved "Working Girl"

[video=youtube;-Ly4ciZ6lhs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ly4ciZ6lhs[/video]

[video=youtube;ZHjP0gdh9oc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHjP0gdh9oc[/video]
Attachments area
Preview YouTube video Nichols & May classic "Mother and Son" skit

Nichols & May classic "Mother and Son" skit
Preview YouTube video The Graduate "One Word: Plastics"

The Graduate "One Word: Plastics"
Preview YouTube video The Graduate (1967) - "Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me. Aren't you?"

The Graduate (1967) - "Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me. Aren't you?"

 

[Gib]

Re: Clear and OT

I can't find anything in your above post which I totally disagree with but I don't fully understand the point you are making. I'm not too familiar with the terms "assignment of significance and assignment of evaluation", did Hubbard use those terms? Of course, assignment of cause as well as assignment of effect played a big part in Dianetics and Scientology.

I want to point out that there are valid courses which help improve one's communication and one's ability to talk to anybody about anything. The Toastmasters Organization offers some techniques and drills which aid one to improve their communication skills, mainly in public speaking but there is definitely a carry over into interpersonal communication as well.

There are university courses designed to help one solve problems in business. There is a whole course of study leading to a degree in Business Administration where you are told to do certain steps to prevent problems or correct existing problems. Of course, these courses of study involve significance so I don't fully understand why you seem to be putting down the concept of "significance".
Lakey

Here is reference from which I was speaking, I found it accidentially. It is an extrapolation, deduction, on my part, just something I realized one day, a parting of the clouds. You may be familiar with it since you worked in Treasury like I did.

Hubbard

""Now as to TAX, why this is anybody's game of what is PROFIT. The thing to do is to assign a significance to the figures before the government people can...So I normally think of a better significance than the government can. I always put enough errors on a return to satisfy their blood- sucking appetite and STILL come out zero. The game of accounting is just a game of assigning significance to figures. The man with the most imagination wins...Income does not mean profit. One can and should make all the INCOME one possibly can. But when one makes INCOME be sure it is accounted for as to its source and that one covers it with expenses and debts. Handling taxation is as simple as that"

from http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/MarburgJournalofReligion092003-2.htm

Taking that paragraph from Hubbard, I realized one could say this in describing diantics/scientology:

""Now as to [STRIKE]TAX[/STRIKE] Dianetics/Scientology, why this is anybody's game of what is PROFIT. The thing to do is to assign a significance to the figures before [STRIKE]the government[/STRIKE] people can...So I normally think of a better significance than the [STRIKE]government[/STRIKE] people can. I always put enough errors on a return to satisfy their blood- sucking appetite and STILL come out zero. The game of [STRIKE]accounting [/STRIKE] Dianetics/Scientology is just a game of assigning significance to [STRIKE]figures[/STRIKE] words. The man with the most imagination wins...Income does not mean profit. One can and should make all the INCOME one possibly can. But when one makes INCOME be sure it is accounted for as to its source and that one covers it with expenses and debts. Handling [STRIKE]taxation[/STRIKE] people is as simple as that"

That's where I am coming from. You may or not may agree, that's how I see it, as another way to explain the con of dianetics/scientology.

I wish I were a better writer to explain, shoot I flunked English 101 in college, I only wanted to learn engineering, the nuts and bolts. Both my parents were foreigners escaping from Germany during WWII, I'm a hybrid.

And what is the significance in dianetics/scientology? Well it's the tech & admin dictionary, it's all the books, all the lectures.

nothing wrong with significance, but what if the significance is wrong from the get go, and we was just persuaded to believe in dianetics/scientology/hubbard? Thru credibility, emotions and logic. (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/)

One hellvahoax.

 

[Elronius of Marcabia]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hubbard

""Now as to TAX, why this is anybody's game of what is PROFIT. The thing to do is to assign a significance to the figures before the government people can...So I normally think of a better significance than the government can. I always put enough errors on a return to satisfy their blood- sucking appetite and STILL come out zero. The game of accounting is just a game of assigning significance to figures. The man with the most imagination wins...Income does not mean profit. One can and should make all the INCOME one possibly can. But when one makes INCOME be sure it is accounted for as to its source and that one covers it with expenses and debts. Handling taxation is as simple as that"

Just one more example of what an ass Hubbard was, he had no trouble begging govt assistance and using the roads the infrastructure
but pay his fair share ?

Seo Org and Scio is still doing it evading taxes thru non profits and employees who pay shit then head for the local hospitals and when there
old they draw SS which they paid next to nothing into, I think its clear who bloodsucker was Ronnie and DM et al etc etc

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Leaving Treasury Division and the study of Scio Treasury policies in October of 1973 to go off to the Apollo, I never encountered any of the writings which Gib is mentioning. It makes sense though; that was Hubbard's mindset as regards governments. They were necessary evils to deal with and the best way to deal with them was to manipulate their own rules so as to outsmart them.

Make some small errors on your tax returns which are so obvious that the IRS will catch them and bill you for small amounts, usually with penalties and interests and the IRS will feel that they have nailed you AND WILL NOT DIG DEEPER and uncover much bigger violations which you have committed. That sounds like pure Hubbard, that's the way he like to play the game and DM seems like the type of leader who would continue that tradition.

Probably others, not in scientology, have figured out that ploy and use it as well.

Also, the comments about COS using free abortion clinics for its members and sending anyone who is seriously ill to use free Hospital Emergency Rooms are very "in character" for Hubbard's mind set. Talk about justifying one's overt acts, Hubbard was the poster boy for such activities

He built his movement using various benefits such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, infrastructure,etc. He then offered parts of his work to government sponsored entities and when they turned him down, he was insulted and as a result he felt justified in tricking the government when paying his taxes, misusing the court system iand misusing government health safety nets meant for the poor, etc.

There followed 35 years of Hubbard and Miscavige gaming the system and amassing huge wealth, all the while bleeding the government of free services designed to aid the poor and those who could not afford treatment. Thanks Gib for turning us on to these revalitions.
Lakey

 

[Gib]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Leaving Treasury Division and the study of Scio Treasury policies in October of 1973 to go off to the Apollo, I never encountered any of the writings which Gib is mentioning. It makes sense though; that was Hubbard's mindset as regards governments. They were necessary evils to deal with and the best way to deal with them was to manipulate their own rules so as to outsmart them.

Make some small errors on your tax returns which are so obvious that the IRS will catch them and bill you for small amounts, usually with penalties and interests and the IRS will feel that they have nailed you AND WILL NOT DIG DEEPER and uncover much bigger violations which you have committed. That sounds like pure Hubbard, that's the way he like to play the game and DM seems like the type of leader who would continue that tradition.

Probably others, not in scientology, have figured out that ploy and use it as well.

Also, the comments about COS using free abortion clinics for its members and sending anyone who is seriously ill to use free Hospital Emergency Rooms are very "in character" for Hubbard's mind set. Talk about justifying one's overt acts, Hubbard was the poster boy for such activities

He built his movement using various benefits such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, infrastructure,etc. He then offered parts of his work to government sponsored entities and when they turned him down, he was insulted and as a result he felt justified in tricking the government when paying his taxes, misusing the court system iand misusing government health safety nets meant for the poor, etc.

There followed 35 years of Hubbard and Miscavige gaming the system and amassing huge wealth, all the while bleeding the government of free services designed to aid the poor and those who could not afford treatment. Thanks Gib for turning us on to these revalitions.
Lakey

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I do think you did not get the point I was making about "assigning significance".

Hubbard did that thru-out dianetics and scientology.

He assigned the significance of "clear" (before anybody else did) in dianetics, defined as somebody with perfect memory, no psychosis, neurosis, etc.

Then comes along scientology, and the significances of "clear" change (assignment of significance before somebody else did). You know, can't go clear on dianetics anymore, have to do the clearing course, thus more and more significance is added from the original dianetics definition of clear which stated a person can go clear in a few hundred hours.

This is why I said Hubbard/ scientology added significance. It's hard to explain.

Others have explained by stating cults have specific words. I'm just trying to explain that in different words from a scientology viewpoint.

As a comparison, in Idenics there is no hatting required (assignment of significance). One doesn't have to read his book. Mike just says, "let's go"

no word clearing, no ruds, no pts checks, no sign waviers, nothing, just let's begin. Or in other words, no significance added.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re: Clear and OT

If your a Mormon stuff happens, if yer a Christian stuff happens, if your a Satanist stuff happens and what do you suppose they were doing at the time ?
Witnessing as to paranormal or supernatural events means absolutely didily squat as proof of anything, it's the assignment of causation without the slightest idea
of what really caused it.

It's enough for me. If I or someone I know is aware of something they couldn't possibly have known, then, yeah- sufficient for me. And it has happened.

 

[Gib]

Re: Clear and OT

It's enough for me. If I or someone I know is aware of something they couldn't possibly have known, then, yeah- sufficient for me. And it has happened.

that's called faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

100% opposite of the Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, or Scientology - the science of certainty.



Hubbard turned his so called science of the mind into faith.

How did he do it?

Rhetoric, the Art of Persuasion.

One can call Dianetics & scientology the Art of Persuasion.

see this: http://tonyortega.org/2014/11/22/th...-of-insurance-mogul-richie-acunto/#more-18039

Richie was fully persuaded into the faith, beliefs of dianetics/scientology.

Also, see this:

http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-fundraising-techniques-part-3/

 

[programmer_guy]

Re: Clear and OT

that's called faith.

<snip>

Or it's sometimes a form of induced schizophrenic delusion (not that all PCs achieve this).
Then LRH writes 8-8008 to supposedly explain those experiences.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I do think you did not get the point I was making about "assigning significance".

Hubbard did that thru-out dianetics and scientology.

He assigned the significance of "clear" (before anybody else did) in dianetics, defined as somebody with perfect memory, no psychosis, neurosis, etc.

Then comes along scientology, and the significances of "clear" change (assignment of significance before somebody else did). You know, can't go clear on dianetics anymore, have to do the clearing course, thus more and more significance is added from the original dianetics definition of clear which stated a person can go clear in a few hundred hours.

This is why I said Hubbard/ scientology added significance. It's hard to explain.

Others have explained by stating cults have specific words. I'm just trying to explain that in different words from a scientology viewpoint.

As a comparison, in Idenics there is no hatting required (assignment of significance). One doesn't have to read his book. Mike just says, "let's go"

no word clearing, no ruds, no pts checks, no sign waviers, nothing, just let's begin. Or in other words, no significance added.

I'm starting to get the picture, Gib, but in listing things such as perfect memory, no physchosis, neurosis, etc., I would normally call those the "attributes" which were supposed to constitute the state of clear.

In the paragraph where you state that scientology added more significances and it was no longer possible to go clear on dianetics but rather one had to do the clearing course to attain the state of clear, I would like to add that when Hubbard reworked dianetics in the early 70's, he reversed course and once again declared that clear could be attained on Dianetics. In fact, he changed the location of clear on the "bridge" from entry level auditing to something that was done after one did their expanded grades.

He then degraded the status of the clearing course, by saying that the course would still exist but it would only be used by those few who did not go clear on Dianetics. Shortly after that, the clearing course and the old Grade 6 were not done by most people though they were kept on the bridge.

I think the idea behind those changes had to do in part with Dianetics being increased in power but perhaps more important was the fact that it speeded up the bridge. The Clearing Course and the original OT levels did not cost all that much but they could occupy a year and a half to two years of a person's time. Besides that, the results they were producing weren't all that spectacular.

If people could go clear on DIanetics, they were immediately routed to an Advanced Org or the Flag Landbase where they would be taking very expensive auditing for the next 7 to 10 years. The idea was to open the upper bridge up to more people and going clear on Dianetics accomplished that. Around 1979, NOTS came out and that was really were the big money was made by COS. A person could be audited for years on NOTS at a premium rate per each intensive. The game then was to get people in, give them their grades, have them go clear on dianetics and then get them right to Flag for the high priced services.

In closing, it seems to me that what you are calling significances, I normally refer to as characteristics or attributes. I'm not interested that much in the differences in dianetcis and idenics. If you want to make a post on that, please do so. I will read it and hopefully so will several others and maybe we can get a series of posts going comparing those two subjects. Probably you will lead that discussion since you may have the most knowledge on Idenics.
Lakey

 

[programmer_guy]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

<snip>
In the paragraph where you state that scientology added more significances and it was no longer possible to go clear on dianetics but rather one had to do the clearing course to attain the state of clear, I would like to add that when Hubbard reworked dianetics in the early 70's, he reversed course and once again declared that clear could be attained on Dianetics. In fact, he changed the location of clear on the "bridge" from entry level auditing to something that was done after one did their expanded grades.

<snip>
Lakey

When I blew SCN staff (course sup) in Spring 1976 the Grades auditing was still AFTER Dianetic auditing on the Grade Chart.
IIRC, it was called Dianetics Release (not Clear).

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

When I blew SCN staff (course sup) in Spring 1976 the Grades auditing was still AFTER Dianetic auditing on the Grade Chart.
IIRC, it was called Dianetics Release (not Clear).

I believe that 1976 was the year the bridge changed. In January of that year, I arrived at ASHO to do the the St. Hill Special Briefing Course. I completed my first section of the Course in a couple of months and then I had to do TR's. I was coached in my TR's by someone named Pam Kilmartin, She said my TR's were terrible and so she sent me for a D of P interview.

In that interview, talking about my TR's, I mentioned that the last auditor training I had done was the Dianetic Internship in 1971. I told how I had completed all my course requirements but instead of graduating me, my CS Don, ordered me fitness boarded out of the S.O. I knew Yvonne Jentzsch was desperately looking for someone who would be willing to be in treasury division so I volunteered to go into treasury to save my ass.

This info got back to Pam K. and she immediately ordered me off of the Briefing Course and ordered me to finish my Dianetic Intership. This had to be somewhere around May or June of 1976. I routed onto the Dianetic Internship at ASHO and as luck would have it, almost immediately, within days, the big change took place. Suddenly the order of the bridge was changed so that staff and students had to receive their grades before they could get Dianetics!!

As a result, the pool of Dianetic preclears immediately dried up and almost no one was illigible to receive Dianetics. On the intership, one is supposed to audit staff members and no ASHO staff were eligble to receive their Dianetic auditing. THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE, THE RIGHT HAND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE LEFT HAND WAS DOING type of situations which happened so often in scientology. Once again, I was the victim of that. To obtain PC's I was allowed to go to the other local orgs, the L.A. Org and even the Advanced Org, AOLA, to try and find preclears. Also, they even let me audit public who were on courses at those orgs as well as ASHO. Finally I found a student who was on course at ASHO and was allowed to audit her on Dianetics and took her all the way through to clear. It seems to me that it was late in 1976 when I finished her up and as a result, I finally graduated from the Dianetic Intership.

As luck would have it, I was supposed to then return to the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course but a guy named Mel Epstein had just returned from Flag and began running a new course at ASHO called hard TR's. The tech people at ASHO decided that I should do this course before returning to the Briefing Course. I completed the Hard TR's course some time in the fall of 1976.

Once again, I put my return to the briefing course on hold because I wanted to go finish my OT levels. I was OT III by then but started my upper OT levels at that time, in late 1976. As it turned out, I never returned to the Briefing Course.

In conclusion, I know for certain that the placement of Dianetics on the bridge changed from the entry levels of scientology to being placed on the bridge to be done after one had completed their expanded grades. This had to come about sometime in 1976 and as best as I can figure, it was around md year.
Lakey

 

[Gib]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm starting to get the picture, Gib, but in listing things such as perfect memory, no physchosis, neurosis, etc., I would normally call those the "attributes" which were supposed to constitute the state of clear.

In the paragraph where you state that scientology added more significances and it was no longer possible to go clear on dianetics but rather one had to do the clearing course to attain the state of clear, I would like to add that when Hubbard reworked dianetics in the early 70's, he reversed course and once again declared that clear could be attained on Dianetics. In fact, he changed the location of clear on the "bridge" from entry level auditing to something that was done after one did their expanded grades.

He then degraded the status of the clearing course, by saying that the course would still exist but it would only be used by those few who did not go clear on Dianetics. Shortly after that, the clearing course and the old Grade 6 were not done by most people though they were kept on the bridge.

I think the idea behind those changes had to do in part with Dianetics being increased in power but perhaps more important was the fact that it speeded up the bridge. The Clearing Course and the original OT levels did not cost all that much but they could occupy a year and a half to two years of a person's time. Besides that, the results they were producing weren't all that spectacular.

If people could go clear on DIanetics, they were immediately routed to an Advanced Org or the Flag Landbase where they would be taking very expensive auditing for the next 7 to 10 years. The idea was to open the upper bridge up to more people and going clear on Dianetics accomplished that. Around 1979, NOTS came out and that was really were the big money was made by COS. A person could be audited for years on NOTS at a premium rate per each intensive. The game then was to get people in, give them their grades, have them go clear on dianetics and then get them right to Flag for the high priced services.

In closing, it seems to me that what you are calling significances, I normally refer to as characteristics or attributes. I'm not interested that much in the differences in dianetcis and idenics. If you want to make a post on that, please do so. I will read it and hopefully so will several others and maybe we can get a series of posts going comparing those two subjects. Probably you will lead that discussion since you may have the most knowledge on Idenics.
Lakey

as I highlight in red your statement, "If people could go clear on DIanetics"

where are the 270 clears or whatever figure hubbard said in dianetics?

who are they? What are their names? Why didn't hubbard promote them? Why all the changes in the definition of clear? Why an extensive research into making clears when hubbard said he did so in dianetics?

 

[RodKeller8008]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

as I highlight in red your statement, "If people could go clear on DIanetics"

where are the 270 clears or whatever figure hubbard said in dianetics?

who are they? What are their names? Why didn't hubbard promote them? Why all the changes in the definition of clear? Why an extensive research into making clears when hubbard said he did so in dianetics?

I always wondered why LRH wasn't the first clear instead of John McMaster. Was it unimaginable to consider whether he was if fact, clear?