The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[CarmeloOrchards]

Come Gather 'Round Children

Just to put this in perspective:
I got into Scientology in 1968, when I was 17, and a senior in high school. By 1971, I was Clear. It made the rest of my life work.

Prior to Scientology, I had been looking for something that would help everyone. I listened to 7 inch reel to reel tapes of Timothy Leary speaking. I read _The psychedelic Experience_ by Leary, Alpert, and Metzner. It was a rewrite of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. i bought it at an alternative book store in a cheaper part of town.

The times they were a changin'. We were the boomers. We were the babies - in a huge wave, from the soldiers coming back from WWII. In actual fact, we were the beings, whose bodies had died in WWII and in the Holocaust. Having audited a shitload of people over the years, I can tell you in no uncertain terms, the people entering Scientology in the 60s and 70s were (in no particular order) former Nazi, American, Japanese, and European soldiers and sailors, and there were children and adults killed by the German atrocity machine.

This was not a generation of status quo. This was a group running from horror. This was a group, who were independent financially - thanks to their parents and the general prosperity of post war America.

From the 1950s "man in the Grey Flannel suit" conformity, we broke the mold (s). we had a little help from some grown ups, not particularly well boxed either. Names like Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Roy Orbison, Elvis, and Alvin and the Chipmunks

... ahh, scratch that last one. "The Witch Doctor" by David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian) was the first 45 I ever bought. He was Alvin and Chipmunks too.

From 1956 to 1964, Rock and Roll had really hit. Broadway musicals and pop were still holding their own, but not for many more years. I was a huge fan of the Rat Pack, singularly or together, but my favorites were played everyday after school on American Bandstand (with Dick Clark) and then "Where the Action Is" (another Dick Clark production).

Jack Parr, who was as intellectual as TV got, had retired from the Tonight Show, and Johnny, Ed and Doc held court for thirty years.

I think it was 1964 that I graduated from junior high. At the Promotion Dance, while there was dance music being played, a group of us lobbied successfully for Dylan "Times They Are A Changin.'" After the dance, we had a make out party, 3 girls , 4 boys. We all took turns. It was fun.

Obama may talk about change, but we epitomized change. With the British invasion, long hair, bellbottoms, dope, sex in surfer vans, rock n roll, more sex, and more drugs was normal op. And the (ethics) formula for normal op is "don't change anything"

The only calendars, worth having from this period were done by Pirelli tire co. They captured Surf City USA - West Coast America. The Beach Boys exported surf music across the country and the globe. Behind them was the Byrds whose music was folk rock. Folk had been in the colleges gathering a head for two decades. The fusion with rock is still heard today in almost every country song played on the radio. and all of this was going on under the Beatles umbrella. The Beatles owned the world. It was an exciting time.

Just because the exception sometimes proves the rule, I did know a long haired musician who didn't smoke dope. How weird is that?!

And, in addition, life was going on all across the globe. There was a war in Nam. a lot of guys were pretty adamant about not going and getting killed again so soon. There was a poster with Joan Baez and her sister, Mimi Farina. The message was "Girls say 'yes' to guys, who say 'no.'"

Dylan had moved the message in the 60s from racial equality to folk rock and poetry set to music. It was everywhere.

But any good key out can't last forever. When you get bigger as a being (like from drugs, sex, or culture), you run into the blocks that you may have shrunk from earlier. A girl friend and I had just walked into the Straight Theater in Haight Ashbury, when fifteen minutes later, a guy was shot by somebody on meth. The Haight quickly went from peace and love to speed, paranoia, and bad trips.

It was time to look for a better high. A friend, Geoff Levin, saw a really tacky bumper sticker that said "ask me about Scientology, the Road to Total Freedom." About twenty of us walked in there, and got inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected for auditing and comm course.

Three years later, we had all gotten power at ASHO and gone Clear at the AO.

and we were changing the world.

unfortunately, just like the drug culture, the entire culture of Scientology gradually flipped in the GPM, and became its own Op Term.

end of story for tonight.

If you have an ipod handy, you can put on Country Joe and the Fish, and play "The Fish Song"-- Give me an "F"....

right now I have Arlo Guthrie on the player doing "Alice's Restaurant"

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

What did you think of Ayn Rand? I was heavily swayed by her and shifted from liberal Democrat to a Republican after reading her. I was turned on to Ayn Rand by a girl at work who was Mormon and who I had a crush on. Let's discuss this some more directly on the board and not in PM's.
Lakey

Starting in the mid 60s, my group of bohemian teen agers was listening to Miles, Leadbelly, Pete Seeger, Mose Allison, Joan, Bob, the Chad Mitchell Trio, Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck.

Most of my friends were professors' kids. They were liberal, and that is an understatement.

I was a farm kid.

We were all heavy readers. I was reading Thoreau, Emerson, Ayn Rand, Huxley, Watts, Suzuki, the i Ching, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, and so on.

Ayn Rand, "Stranger in a Strange Land", Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and the i Ching really bit.

In my group I was the only conservative. I read Bill Buckley, and walked precincts for Barry Goldwater in his 1964 run for president..

My politics haven't changed especially in forty five years. It's called libertarian today. Geo Bush makes me sick. I proudly voted Obama. A friend is on the board of the Cato Institute.

By the Way: do you know who the first major Republican who came out against the war in Viet Nam was?

It was Ronnie Reagan. He also was the keynote speaker in the Republican convention in San Francisco for Barry Goldwater's campaign.

 

[lkwdblds]

Just to put this in perspective:
I got into Scientology in 1968, when I was 17, and a senior in high school. By 1971, I was Clear. It made the rest of my life work.

To me, you are a young "whippersnapper" I was 28 when you were 17!

Prior to Scientology, I had been looking for something that would help everyone. I listened to 7 inch reel to reel tapes of Timothy Leary speaking. I read _The psychedelic Experience_ by Leary, Alpert, and Metzner. It was a rewrite of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. i bought it at an alternative book store in a cheaper part of town.

The times they were a changin'. We were the boomers. We were the babies - in a huge wave, from the soldiers coming back from WWII. In actual fact, we were the beings, whose bodies had died in WWII and in the Holocaust. Having audited a shitload of people over the years, I can tell you in no uncertain terms, the people entering Scientology in the 60s and 70s were (in no particular order) former Nazi, American, Japanese, and European soldiers and sailors, and there were children and adults killed by the German atrocity machine.

Amazingly, this guy at work, Doug Locke, whose Dad was a Baptist preacher turned me on to Edgar Caycee, "The Sleeping Giant". I started reading the books around late '67 and early '68 and from these books, both Doug and I started believing in what we then called reincarnation. I also took a class in Zen Buddhism in '67 and began meditation. Over two years before entering Scientology, Doug Locke and I began believing that all the protestors, peacenicks, flower power types, druggies, etc. were all reincarnations of people killed in World War II. It made a lot of sense, they lived and suffered through WW II and had had enough of the Hitlers, Mussolinis and Tojos of the world, they hated armies and bombs and rejected the culture that spawned those things and just wanted peace, love and free expression.

This was not a generation of status quo. This was a group running from horror. This was a group, who were independent financially - thanks to their parents and the general prosperity of post war America.

From the 1950s "man in the Grey Flannel suit" conformity, we broke the mold (s). we had a little help from some grown ups, not particularly well boxed either. Names like Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Roy Orbison, Elvis, and Alvin and the Chipmunks

... ahh, scratch that last one. "The Witch Doctor" by David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian) was the first 45 I ever bought. He was Alvin and Chipmunks too.

From 1956 to 1964, Rock and Roll had really hit. Broadway musicals and pop were still holding their own, but not for many more years. I was a huge fan of the Rat Pack, singularly or together, but my favorites were played everyday after school on American Bandstand (with Dick Clark) and then "Where the Action Is" (another Dick Clark production).

Jack Parr, who was as intellectual as TV got, had retired from the Tonight Show, and Johnny, Ed and Doc held court for thirty years.

Johnny captured the times better than most anyone else and was able to both promote and make fun of (in good taste) the new revolution which was sweeping through society.

I think it was 1964 that I graduated from junior high. At the Promotion Dance, while there was dance music being played, a group of us lobbied successfully for Dylan "Times They Are A Changin.'" After the dance, we had a make out party, 3 girls , 4 boys. We all took turns. It was fun.

That sounds like fun, I wish I had been there too!!

Obama may talk about change, but we epitomized change. With the British invasion, long hair, bellbottoms, dope, sex in surfer vans, rock n roll, more sex, and more drugs was normal op. And the formula is "don't change anything"

The only calendars, worth having from this period were done by Pirelli tire co. They captured Surf City USA - West Coast America. The Beach Boys exported surf music across the country and the globe. Behind them was the Byrds whose music was folk rock. Folk had been in the colleges gathering a head for two decades. The fusion with rock is still heard today in almost every country song played on the radio. and all of this was going on under the Beatles umbrella. The Beatles owned the world. It was an exciting time.

Just because the exception sometimes proves the rule, I did know a long haired musician who didn't smoke dope. How weird is that?!

Unheard of! He must have been on a "natural high", as we called it.

And, in addition, life was going on all across the globe. There was a war in Nam. a lot of guys were pretty adamant about not going and getting killed again so soon. There was a poster with Joan Baez and her sister, Mimi Farina. The message was "Girls say 'yes' to guys, who say 'no.'"

Mohammad Ali take a bow! Don't forget that many of the people, mostly blacks who wanted relgion and wanted peace as well became Muslims which was looked at as a religion of peace. Christianity, who the youth felt had spawned WW II at worst, or just sat by and let it happen without doing any thing at best, fell into disfavor. During both World Wars, both sides wore medalians, the German one said "Gott ist mit uns." and the British and Americans ones said the same thing in English, "God is with us." God and Christianity took the rap for WW II and fell into disfavor. Islam. Easterm religions and newer religions such as Scientology were sought out to fill the gap left by the traditional religions. I do not agree that this was totally a good thing but something had to take the fall for the agonies of WWII and traditional religions were as good a candidate as any they did take the fall. It is such a large topic that it should have its own thread, if not its own website, and I'm sure many such websites must currently exist.

Dylan had moved the message in the 60s from racial equality to folk rock and poetry set to music. It was everywhere.

But any good key out can't last forever. When you get bigger as a being (like from drugs, sex, or culture), you run into the blocks that you may have shrunk from earlier. A girl friend and I had just walked into the Straight Theater in Haight Ashbury, when fifteen minutes later, a guy was shot by somebody on meth. The Haight quickly went from peace and love to speed, paranoia, and bad trips.

It was time to look for a better high. A friend, Geoff Levin, saw a really tacky bumper sticker that said "ask me about Scientology, the Road to Total Freedom." About twenty of us walked in there, and got inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected for auditing and comm course.

I knew Jeff, he coached me in TR's when I first arrived at CCLA. As a sudent auditor, he gave me one of my first auditing sessions. He was already OT5!

Three years later we had all gotten Power at ASHO and had gone Clear at the AO.

and we were changing the world.

unfortunately, just like the drug culture, the entire culture of Scientology gradually flipped in the GPM, and became its own Op Term.

end of story for tonight.

If you have an ipod handy, you can put on Country Joe and the Fish, and play "The Fish Song"-- Give me an "F"....

right now I have Arlo Guthrie on the player doing "Alice's Restaurant"

Carmelo, thanks for your comprehensive review of Western society and culture as seen through the eyes of a Babby Boomer generation person! What a great summary of everything that was going on.

L Ron Hubbard was very lucky in starting Scientology when he did. He did not plan it that way, but unknown to him, the times were ripe and things were a changing.

People were leaving Christianity and Judaism in droves. Some probably had guilt pangs or losses in doing so, perhaps leaving the traditional religions broke up the family bonds that existed. A lot began looking at Eastern religions. Inadvertently, Hubbard seemed to be offering the "best of both worlds", the people could experience the truths of Eastern religion and still have the trappings of a Western religion such as a cross, the clerical collar and a Sunday sermon. Going as far as he did with some workable techniques and some good policies, one's mind is just staggered when one tries to contemplate how far Scientology could have gone if Hubbard had run things better and each person who joined up was treated with respect. exchanged with in abundance, and nurtured to reach his or her utmost potential as a free being and produce products for a truly honest religion. The times were ripe for change, Hubbard had charisma and mystique and was in a position to make a real difference and a real positive impact on the world. For a lot of us, sharp intelligent people such as Carmelo and her group of 20 friends, we really believed that this is what was happening and to some degree it did happen for a while.

Somewhere along the line, there was a big change in Hubbard, sometime around early 1963 according to Alan and Roger B., both who are extremely sage old timers Alan having just passed on last week. Had Hubbard not changed at that point, who knows how far Scientology could have gone, maybe Hubbard actually had the opportunity to produce a peaceful and cleared planet. That opportunity, if it truly existed was squandered. Where do we go from here, Eastern Religions, New Age religions, enlightened Atheism, Western style Science or what? The brief moment in time when Hubbard was on Center stage has come and gone. People are still assessing Hubbard, totally good, a balance of good and evil, or totally evil? All these camps have strong adherenets and spokespeople. Probably a consensus will ever be reached. The question is really no longer all that important. Earth has to move on collectively past L.Ron Hubbard and look for new ways to achieve those lofty goals set for mankind by Hubbard's creed. The invention of the Internet, may be mankind's greatest achievement and if a betterworld is built, I predict it will be built in large part through the use of the internet.

Thanks again Carmelo for your "Tour de Force" on the days of change and your part in it!! Absolutely an incredible post!!
A "must read" for all of us on ESMB and all the others non members who lurk here and read our stuff.
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I wrote:

It was time to look for a better high. A friend, Geoff Levin, saw a really tacky bumper sticker that said "ask me about Scientology, the Road to Total Freedom." About twenty of us walked in there, and got inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected for auditing and comm course.

Lakey replied:

I knew Jeff, he coached me in TR's when I first arrived at CCLA. As a sudent auditor, he gave me one of my first auditing sessions. He was already OT5!

To show how deeply Scientology has sunk: Geoff is a microcosm illustrating the macrocosm of Scientlogy as a whole.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0505602/

Geoff is still "in" the cult. He has sold his share of a partnership that lasted over twenty years. He's no longer writing music. He's getting rid of his things. He isn't talking to his brother, who has fallen off "the bridge" (or perhaps, jumped). He's divorced from Lisa. He hasn't seen his kids in over six months. He doesn't answer e mail. he doesn't return or even answer phone calls. He has a lot of money at Flag, and they've refused to audit him.

Not to get on a soap box or anything, but would a church, that had an ounce of compassion, do something about this?

 

[Blue Spirit]

I Appreciate the Ack

Blue Spirit - Maybe you weren't there until later but you've done an awful lot of posting here lately and have contributed a lot. I feel you were a major contributor. Don't be overly modest!
Lakey

Thank you for the Ack.

Actually I'm not modest, only very honest.

 

[Panda Termint]

Thanks Carmelo, Lakey et al. for your postings here, great stuff!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Drat!

I've lost three longish posts in this thread in the past three days, having wifi problems of some kind, keeps dumping me off. Very frusterating!!!

Who knows why.... Solar flares? :confused2:

Anyway, I'm here and I'm keeping up.

Carmelo, no. Compassionate responses seem very thin in Corporate Scientology. I hope circumstances will improve for the person you spoke of.

Am I the only one who thinks flag accounts are ripe for financial fraud, as they are set up?

 

[lkwdblds]

Some comments

Starting in the mid 60s, my group of bohemian teen agers was listening to Miles, Leadbelly, Pete Seeger, Mose Allison, Joan, Bob, the Chad Mitchell Trio, Charlie Parker, Dave Brubeck.

Most of my friends were professors' kids. They were liberal, and that is an understatement

Coming from a Jewish home in West L.A., virtually everyone was liberal including me. My Mom told me in November, 1948 when we were listening to the election returns for President of the U.S., coming in on our radio, that the Democrats were for the poor and the common people while the Republicans were only for the rich. I instantly decided to be a Democrat. The race that year was between Truman and Dewey with former vice president Henry Wallace being a strong 3rd party candidate and Strom Thurnond a racist from South Carolina, also being a strong 3rd party candidate. My Dad came home from work and told my Mom that he voted for Henry Wallace. My Mom scolded him for throwing away his vote. I remember the entire incident like it just happened a day or two ago. The guys on the radio were talking about the electoral college and I asked my Mom what that was and she tried to explain it. I asked if one candidate could win the popular vote and lose in the Electoral College. Mom told me that it could happen. I protested vehemently and asserted that whoever won the popular vote should win, no matter how the electoral college voted because if more people want one guy, that guy should win.


I was a farm kid.

We were all heavy readers. I was reading Thoreau, Emerson, Ayn Rand, Huxley, Watts, Suzuki, the i Ching, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, and so on.

Of your list, I only read Ayn Rand and Zen Flesh, Zen Bones.

Ayn Rand, "Stranger in a Strange Land", Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., and the i Ching really bit.

In 1960, I loved Kennedy and hated Nixon, I wanted Nixon to lose so badly. The voting age then was 21 and I did not turn 21 until two weeks after the election so I could not vote. In 1964 I was working in Texas at NASA near Houston and a friend I knew from IBM in L.A., Carolyn, wrote me to read two Ayn Rand books, "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" I read them and they changed my thinking and I switched to being a Republican and voted for Goldwater.

Ayn Rand has a philosophy based on selfishness, essentially on the 1st Dynamic. If you personally did not like homeless and bums loitering on your streets, you would eventually do something about and see that they got jobs, housing and had their basic human needs fulfilled. You would never do this for altruistic reasons, just to help the homeless, but for selfish reason only, such that you would lower homelessness only because you found the homeless on the streets disturbing to your sense of well being.


In my group I was the only conservative. I read Bill Buckley, and walked precincts for Barry Goldwater in his 1964 run for presidentMy politics haven't changed especially in forty five years. It's called libertarian today. Geo Bush makes me sick. I proudly voted Obama. A friend is on the board of the Cato Institute.

I love the Libertarian's domestic programs but can not respect their international platform. I found Obama to be an "empty suit". He had no experience and didn't really say much using only generalities such as "Change". Some of his flaws are now being revealed as is his lack of experience. He definitely has excellent intelligence, great speaking ability and tons of charisma.

By the Way: do you know who the first major Republican who came out against the war in Viet Nam was?

It was Ronnie Reagan. He also was the keynote speaker in the Republican convention in San Francisco for Barry Goldwater's campaign.

Reagan was one of our best presidents. He did a lot for the USA and also for the world.

Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Obama / McCain

Well, you certainly are from the OC. (for those of you abroad, OC stands for Orange County, and Orange County in California is known for its right of center politics)

and furthermore Orange County, California contains Disneyland, while Orange County , Florida has Disney World in its borders.

Orange groves like nice weather, so too did Disney.

Well, in the words of Bette Davis, in "All About Eve," "Fasten your seat belts, we're in for a bumpy ride."

On the subject of Obama, from my viewpoint, he was the better candidate by far. John McCain had spoken truthfully some years back about the fundamentalist Christian right wing. Running for election to the presidency, he took back everything he had said. Starting from "Go," he collapsed his integrity in pursuit of the goal of the presidency.

Secondly, although I would have enjoyed every minute of Tina Fey on SNL, had the Alaska governor been elected to the White House, I just don't think she was in any way qualified to be an elected official. She'd make a terrific talk show host, but that is as far as it goes.

When George H. W. Bush named Dan Quayle as his running mate, I thought it was a good idea. Bush 1 had been head of the CIA, had seen JFK shot, and Reagan shot. Bush 1 had a VP, that the CIA would never ever call a hit on Bush 1, with Dan Quayle as his back up.

And with Bush 2, there never was a reason to shoot him, the VP was already running the show.

Sarah Palin would have been a comic disaster. The line between comedy and tragedy being so slim.

As to Obama, you say he was inexperienced. I would, respectfully, disagree. Experience doesn't have to be in this lifetime. But, let's take this lifetime experience first.

Here was a guy, who took on a very savvy well financed front runner. He soundly defeated her, and then turned around, and co opted her supporters and her family's help for the fall campaign. There was no getting even, burning bridges, there was help. That speaks volumes about his people skills.

Here's a guy, who uses a Blackberry and the internet running against a guy who didn't. I'm sorry, I don't have any interest in voting for dinosaurs. If Alley Oop was running, I wouldn't vote for him either. i want somebody who has a clue.

Obama had a well organized campaign. McCain didn't. Even McCain's daughter was critical of his campaign's lack of internet savvy and use. She named names and made concrete recommendations for future campaigns.

There is a comparison that can be made between a campaign organization and a White House staff. Like any CEO, the organization mirrors /models what the top banana does and is. McCain's campaign sucked. Obama's rocked. I think we can see the same thing happening in the White House.

Today Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize and spoke of some wars that are necessary. He has guts, and he does it diplomatically, so most people in the world admire him. I certainly do.

Now, lets move on to general qualities of world leaders, and the qualities that they must have to hold their position.

When John McMaster went Clear, he heard the voices of the people of the Earth saying, "don't betray us." If you ever met him, or even saw him speaking, you probably remember him as this huge being.

I think huge beings are huge because of their connection with others. I'll let that sink in.

John, Paul, George, and Ringo connected with most everyone on the planet. They didn't put up barriers to that. They could have the connection.

John McMaster connected with each of us. He loved us individually and collectively. When LRH went off the rails, John Mac walked. He did not kowtow to the insanity.

Before his life as John McMaster, he was Rudolph Valentino. When Rudolph Valentino died, the world's newspapers made it front page bold headlines. He connected with everyone across the globe.

If you want to believe, as I do, that John McMaster's power PC folders, which contained a lot of stuff around Jerusalem circa 0 A.D., were not dub in. The sessions were a part of Class Vll training in the power processes. Then you could say his beingness, words, and actions have connected with a huge Earth population for over 2000 years.

I think the big beings naturally float to the top, just like cream.

Obama, seems to me, to be one of those people. The world loves him. I trust him. He isn't perfect. No one is. I think he has his integrity intact.

McCain, absolutely, did not. He's a good man, but he wasn't strong enough to hold onto his integrity with the pressures he was feeling.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I wrote:

We were all heavy readers. I was reading Thoreau, Emerson, Ayn Rand, Huxley, Watts, Suzuki, the i Ching, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, and so on.

Lakey commented:

Of your list, I only read Ayn Rand and Zen Flesh, Zen Bones.

Lakey,

everyone living in a free country owes it to themselves and their fellow citizens to read Henry David Thoreau "On Civil Disobedience"- It should have been required reading of newbie Scientologists

Ralph Waldo Emerson, Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts, D.T. Suzuki, and the i Ching would give you a broader understanding of a perennial philosophy and eastern religion in general. Read Emerson "Self Reliance."

The i Ching dates back to Confucius. I've used it since I was 16. I throw three coins, write down heads or tails of each throw, and after six sets of thrown coins, read a specific section of the i Ching that 95% of the time is dead on accurate description of what I'm encountering in life, and what action or course I should take.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Reagan was one of our best presidents. He did a lot for the USA and also for the world.

Lakey

Ronnie fits in exactly with what I was saying about Big Beings. He was exactly what the country and the world, and especially Mrs. Thatcher needed. This would be a very different world had he not passed our way.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Lakey wrote

To me, you are a young "whippersnapper" I was 28 when you were 17!

Yeah, well I was fighting a war against the Axis powers when you were peeing in your diapers. It seems to me that you were just a young (very young) draft dodger

 

[lkwdblds]

Obama. books to read, etc.

Carmelo, I also read Suzuki a bit. Thanks for the other tips. I went on a reading binge starting in 1966. My first novel was "Razor's Edge" by your erudite countryman, W. Somerset Maugham. This novel changed my life. It pointed to the Orient as the place one could go to find wisdom. My response was to immediately enroll in a class in Zen Buddhism at UCLA extension school in the evenings and I immediately began meditating. I read all of Maughman's major novels. I next switched to Dostoyevski and read most of those, "Crime and Punishment, The Idiot, etc. He is one of the greatest writers ever. His court scene dramas, such as in Crime and Punishment. are exciting and reveal his wisdom.

Next, I read most of Albert Camus' works including "The Plague". I read Sinclair Lewis's novel of injustices in the meat packing industry around 1900. I read most of Jane Austin's novels, novels by Sarte, Anres Gide, and on and on. There was one book, which was recommended to me called "Summerhill" which concerned a school in England run on some very interesting educational prinicples. Living in England, did you ever encounter that book? In more modern books, I read Shogun by Clavell and liked it so much, I read all his major noverls and also read Ben Hur by Lew Wallace and then the series of books by Uris, including "Exodus". "Texas" and "Poland". I also had an insatiable interest in World War II and read book after book about that topic, including two books by Albert Spier, "Inside the 3rd Reich" and the book written in secrete while he was in Spandau prison. I also read Heman Hesse, Chekov and Franz Kalfka. When first married in 1981, I read the whole series of books by the Jewish writer Isaac Bashevis Singer.

You have to remember I was a Mathematics major and a physics minor, and the stereotype of such people is that they are technical geeks. Often they are perceived as not reading non scientific literature. The only great Author I read in my youth was our own Mark Twain whose books for kids are also great literature and also the weird but great American, Edgar Allen Poe. You talk about authors with back track experiences and its hard to top Poe. All the ghouls and horrific haunting characters in his works seem to be straight off the "Whole Track." He also wrote some speculations about the nature of the Universe which contain a lot of whole track.

My reading was cut short when I joined Scientology in 1970 and like most of us, I read only L. Ron Hubbard for many years. I believed Hubbard's works encompassed all of life and superceeded all other writers because of Hubbards much higher "Level of Knowingness". The stupidity of that point of view stayed in force all the way into the 2000's when I finally wised up.

When my kids were born, I was being a husband and a Dad, runing my business and taking Scientology services evenings and weekends and working out at a gym every other day. The spare time was taken chauffering the kids to their activities and going on trips with the family. Unfortunately, I pretty much dropped my reading.

Though not reading many of the tomes you did, I am still reasonably well read. Whenever someone I respect strongly recommends a book, I always try and read it and will do so with your recommendations.

On the Obama issue, I don't like to argue politics. The Bush presidency was perceived as a total failure, especially his second term. He was so demonized by the press and so hated that the election was going to be a Democratic sweep whether Hillary ran or Obama ran. I did want us to have a Black president so if a democrat had to get in, I prefered Obama over Hillary. By electing a black president, it reminded the world of the greatness with which the USA perceived as having by the rest of the world as recently as in the Reagan years.

I DONT WANT THE USA TO BECOME A SOCIALIST STATE SUCH AS YOU GUYS HAVE IN THE EU! With a huge democratic majority in our congress and Obama at the helm, the Dems are trying to pass everything to make us as much like Europe as they can. I like old fashioned American self responsiblity and ruggedness. If we weren't there with our brave soldiers, you guys would all be German or Soviet dominated at this time. Don't get me wrong, the Brits and the Aussies all fought with great commitment and bravery, equal to ours but we had the economic power, the man power and production capability to shift the power to our side. Without the USA in the mix, the Nazis had the edge in the balance of power and technology and certainly would not have been defeated. Even if they were, then the Soviets would have taken over.

America has to remain the type of country it was founded to be. The principles of our wise founders have to remain intact. If we crumble from within and adopt the EU model, the world will be rife for takeover by unsavory forces. There will be no arsenal of Democracy or powerful force to stop the despots of the world. I like Obama personally but see him as a strong force pushing us to "change" which means changing to be more like the countries of the EU. This means a virtual rewrite of the U.S. Constitution and a changing of our fundamental, founding principles. AS YOU SAY, I AM FROM ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, SO HOW COULD I BELIEVE OTHERWISE.
The Obama crowd insists that wealth and services be redistributed from the producers to the non producers. It is that simple, and if this philosophy takes over in America, America, as we know it, will become only a large footnote in the history books.
Lakey
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Where does this train of though stop!

Lakey wrote

To me, you are a young "whippersnapper" I was 28 when you were 17!

Yeah, well I was fighting a war against the Axis powers when you were peeing in your diapers. It seems to me that you were just a young (very young) draft dodger

Carmelo, you "one upped" me on my whippersnapper comment but where would this line of reasoning stop. I could assert that while I was fighting in World War I, you were just in diapers and we could just keep leap frogging each other. Actually, I did not fight in Wold War I per my memories.

Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

Carmelo, thanks for your comprehensive review of Western society and culture as seen through the eyes of a Babby Boomer generation person! What a great summary of everything that was going on.

L Ron Hubbard was very lucky in starting Scientology when he did. He did not plan it that way, but unknown to him, the times were ripe and things were a changing.

People were leaving Christianity and Judaism in droves. Some probably had guilt pangs or losses in doing so, perhaps leaving the traditional religions broke up the family bonds that existed. A lot began looking at Eastern religions. Inadvertently, Hubbard seemed to be offering the "best of both worlds", the people could experience the truths of Eastern religion and still have the trappings of a Western religion such as a cross, the clerical collar and a Sunday sermon. Going as far as he did with some workable techniques and some good policies, one's mind is just staggered when one tries to contemplate how far Scientology could have gone if Hubbard had run things better and each person who joined up was treated with respect. exchanged with in abundance, and nurtured to reach his or her utmost potential as a free being and produce products for a truly honest religion. The times were ripe for change, Hubbard had charisma and mystique and was in a position to make a real difference and a real positive impact on the world. For a lot of us, sharp intelligent people such as Carmelo and her group of 20 friends, we really believed that this is what was happening and to some degree it did happen for a while.

Somewhere along the line, there was a big change in Hubbard, sometime around early 1963 according to Alan and Roger B., both who are extremely sage old timers Alan having just passed on last week. Had Hubbard not changed at that point, who knows how far Scientology could have gone, maybe Hubbard actually had the opportunity to produce a peaceful and cleared planet. That opportunity, if it truly existed was squandered. Where do we go from here, Eastern Religions, New Age religions, enlightened Atheism, Western style Science or what? The brief moment in time when Hubbard was on Center stage has come and gone. People are still assessing Hubbard, totally good, a balance of good and evil, or totally evil? All these camps have strong adherenets and spokespeople. Probably a consensus will ever be reached. The question is really no longer all that important. Earth has to move on collectively past L.Ron Hubbard and look for new ways to achieve those lofty goals set for mankind by Hubbard's creed. The invention of the Internet, may be mankind's greatest achievement and if a betterworld is built, I predict it will be built in large part through the use of the internet.

Thanks again Carmelo for your "Tour de Force" on the days of change and your part in it!! Absolutely an incredible post!!
A "must read" for all of us on ESMB and all the others non members who lurk here and read our stuff.
Lakey

As another noted on another thread, a good way to look at our Scientology experience is as being in an abusive relationship. In the beginning, the abuser is charming and wonderful to be with. If that wasn't the case THE RELATIONSHIP WOULD NEVER HAVE STARTED. The initial charm and good times are the cheese in the mouse trap.

Once the abuser is secure in thinking that control is complete, there is less and less incentive to keep a lid on the abusive inclinations. I don't think that 1963 was the point where Ron changed. I think that 1963 thru 1968 was the period where he became so secure, that the mask came off what was always there.

 

[Enthetan]

[...]
You have to remember I was a Mathematics major and a physics minor, and the stereotype of such people is that they are technical geeks. Often they are perceived as not reading non scientific literature. The only great Author I read in my youth was our own Mark Twain whose books for kids are also great literature and also the weird but great American, Edgar Allen Poe. You talk about authors with back track experiences and its hard to top Poe. All the ghouls and horrific haunting characters in his works seem to be straight off the "Whole Track." He also wrote some speculations about the nature of the Universe which contain a lot of whole track.

It is an invalid stereotype that science/engineering types do not read literature. You will find far more science types who are well read in literature than you will find Liberal Arts majors who have a clue about topics in science and technology.

About the Left/Right political discussion, I can see it taking over this board if we don't table it and keep the discussion on the topics this board was intended for. Speaking for myself, I am Conservative/Libertarian, consider myself well to the right of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, and you do NOT want to get me started!

 

[lkwdblds]

Enthetan - 2 Great Posts!!

As another noted on another thread, a good way to look at our Scientology experience is as being in an abusive relationship. In the beginning, the abuser is charming and wonderful to be with. If that wasn't the case THE RELATIONSHIP WOULD NEVER HAVE STARTED. The initial charm and good times are the cheese in the mouse trap.

Once the abuser is secure in thinking that control is complete, there is less and less incentive to keep a lid on the abusive inclinations. I don't think that 1963 was the point where Ron changed. I think that 1963 thru 1968 was the period where he became so secure, that the mask came off what was always there.

Enthetan - THE ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP metaphor or allegory is the best one by far that I have ever encountered! WOW!! That is the allegory I have been looking for. One could write paragraphs, and I have, trying to capture what is taking place when one joins Scientology and they beat around the bush with many good points being made but they fail to illustrate what is actually taking place as clearly as the three words, "An Abusive Relationship"

As Ted has pointed out, "NARCISSISM" is a one word definition which if studied will lead to terms which describe L Ron Hubbard and the actions he took. In a like manner "THE ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP" is a short metaphor which, if studied will lead one to be able to predict what is going to happen to him when he gets into Scientology.

We Ex Scientologists could have our own book equivalent to "Science of Survival" subtitled Predicating Scientology's Behavior. The book would have only one page. On that page a reader would have to clear his words in the concepts of Narcissism and The Abusive Relationship, do a clay demo on each and then pass a star rate check out on each. He would then be certified as a completion. Think of how much confusion, suffering, degradation and loss of money doing this would save a person!

Thank you for this fine post, one of the most enlightening I have ever read! If you recall who authored the metaphor, please let me know, I would want to read more of their writings.
Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

I didn't originate the cognition about Scn as an abusive relationship. At some point I'll have to track down the thread and give proper credit to the ESMB poster who thought of it, but it really seems to fit.

 

[Enthetan]

Google
"abusive relationship" site:forum.exscn.net
and you will find a number of threads. The one in particular had a male ex-SO trying to describe to a female non-Scn in a bar why he stayed. He hit upon the analogy of abusive relationship, and it clicked with her, because she had also been in such a relationship.

 

[lkwdblds]

Another outstanding post!

It is an invalid stereotype that science/engineering types do not read literature. You will find far more science types who are well read in literature than you will find Liberal Arts majors who have a clue about topics in science and technology.

About the Left/Right political discussion, I can see it taking over this board if we don't table it and keep the discussion on the topics this board was intended for. Speaking for myself, I am Conservative/Libertarian, consider myself well to the right of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, and you do NOT want to get me started!

Yes, as far as science types being well read, it is not all that rare, that is why I chose to use the word "stereotype". I believe the word implies within it the likelihood that the thing being described is not being described in a fully valid manner. I just just Googled steriotype and one of the definitions is an "Overly Simplified Concept" and that is the usage I intended. I was in engineering school at UCLA and I would estimate that over half of the students would not read great literature avidly while perhaps a little less than half would and a portion of those would eagerly devour non Scientific literature.

You are right that more Liberal Arts majors avoid reading scientific material than happens the other way around. I think the explanation for this is that, in the main, many liberal arts types just can't understand higher math and have no talent at all in it causing them to have an aversion for it. ITS NOT THAT THEY WOULD NOT LIKE TO READ SCIENTIFIC MATERIAL BUT THAT THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO JUST PICK IT UP AND READ IT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE READING. Going the other way, almost any Scientific type person can pick up non scientific material and read it with ease. Some just choose not to read it.

Your second point about staying on topic is also well grounded. To be honest with you, it started with Carmelo discussing some of the books that influenced her the most. I asked her about Ayn Rand and she responded. It was brought up that I live in Orange County and then we got a little into politics.

I am going to "justify" this to you. OMG, that horrible word "Justify" which in Scn means that you are stating alibis because you know you have done wrong. I don't think I have done anything wrong by introducing politics and here is my justifcation: What good is staying completely on topic if no one bothers to read your thread because it is too boring?

One has to stir up the pot a little, add some color, add some controvery give people something to vent about and let them vent and blow off some steam. Suddenly, you have a larger audience and now the moderator steers the discussion back on topic. That is what I had in mind. That is my justification.

Past a certain point, I will not get caught up in a huge liberal vs. conservative dialogue which will never resolve. If two or more readers of this thread start such a thing up, I can not stop it but I will not particpate very much, if at all. Once the debate calms down, the readership is increased and then we go back on topic. I confess, I am guilty. Am I going to assigned to the RPF?
Lakey