The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

I have no doubt that had e-meters and TR drills been used the results would have been entirely different. One need only look at the power these tools have in psychological manipulation so as to force compliance, as detailed in Robert Devine's statement to Court linked to in this and other threads recently.

Hubbard's work is peppered with disparaging comments about and attacks on academics and higher education in general so, although interested, I'm not surprised by your comment. Do you have any further details on the studies at Chicago? I can't seem to get my Google-fu to come up with anything specific.

As an aside, there is an interesting link between Hubbard and the University of Chicago. A Dr Karl Lashley of the university was the first American academic to use the term "engram" in his 1932 book Studies In The Dynamics of Behaviour. (The first person to coin the term was the German Richard Semon). Around this time, there were also a number of research projects at the university into the use of galvanic skin response (GSR) - the equipment for which was subsequently re-packed as the e-meter. About the only contribution Hubbard made in this area of research was his discovery that engrams are actually Body Thetans.

Blip, the reference below has results of nearly all tests conducted on Dianetics plus it was also tested by Consumer Reports Magazine in 1951 and Math Puzzle author Martin Gardner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics:_The_Modern_Science_of_Mental_Health

There is nothing metioned on any test at Chicago U. only New York U. I believe I heard the tape on the Briefing Course at ASHO in January 1976. We had to hear hundreds of Hubbard's tapes, all in chronological order. I was only on the course for a few months and never finished it but I probbly heard about 20 to 25 tapes while I was on the briefing course and it was definitely in that Early batch of tapes. Perhaps Hubbard changed the true tester's name New York U to Chicago U as a lie just so NYU would not be able to sue him for slandering them.
Lakey

 

[Infinite]

- ( . . . snip . . . ) I don't think they even knew of LRH, nor he of thm. It was a completely independent group. Some guys from the Org once went to Quatermain for therapy in the late '70s and got booted straight into ethics afterwards.

Ahh - now that's interesting. Thanks Leon. What a pity about the book. And what a pity also that Scientology developed so closed a mind about matters spiritual and a defiance about its own correctness so early on. I sometimes imagine how the movement might have been had it opened up to other possibilities as part of a wider conversation with the world in relation to the spiritual.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Roland, fine answer on the women's question. I am totally satisfied. On the Greek civilization, they were in their Golden Age from about 300 to 200 B.C.. The Roman Civilization conquered them and annexed them to be part of the Roman Empire. It wasn't until about 230 years later that Jesus was wandering around Judea, also part of the Roman Empire doing his preaching. Two hundred and thirty years is the approximate length of time from when the U.S.A. gained its independence until now. When Jesus was alive Greece did not exist as a separate Civilization, it had been absorbed into the Roman Empire. Much of the Greek culture was adopted along with Greek lands and their citizens but what Jesus experienced in his traveling about Judea was Roman Civilization. Greece was now part of Rome and besides that, people often lived only within a 10 or 20 mile radius their entire lives and Jesus had no real method to get to Greece. I don't know the distance but it has to be at least 500 miles from Judea to Greece, probably closer to 1,000 miles Jesus was never in the Roman Army or Navy and his family was of very modest income level so there was no way he could get to Greece but even if he had made it there, he would have found mainly Roman culture with perhaps lots of Greek accents. It would be similar to California which once belonged to Spain and then for a short time to Mexico. The culture here, 165 years after we took California over is totally United States Culture but there are very strong Spanish and Mexican accents, the architecture, the names of places, a strong presenece of Mexican foods and Mexican music and a lot of Spanish spoken. I believe that in Jesus's time, Greece would be the same, a total Roman culture with tremendous greek overtones. The Great Golden Age of Greece was long gone.

As far as being off topic, pretty much any worthwhile topic is taken up here. Roger had already introduced Jesus and your remarks concerned Jesus so I believe your topic is quite appropriate for our discussion.
Lakey

At the time of jesus the dominant population in the levant were seleucid greeks, present since the time of Alexander. These were descendents of greeks from various city states (especially Macedonia) and the other peoples native of the region. The dominant language was a common variation of greek, "koine" greek.

This included the areas of Roman Iudaea. Actual "Roman" Roman citizens in the area were few & far between. Similarly there were few speakers of latin. Most civilians were gentiles and speakers of koine greek. Some were also Roman citizens through a process akin to "naturalization", although these would have been a distinctly tiny minority.

The east was very much a mixed bag as far as culture went, although it was wholly dominated by koine greek speakers. Rome governed the region but the culture remained predominantly of greek influence, with that influence remaining even unto modern times.

Jesus very likely heard koine greek spoken when traveling in larger communities. It is quite possible that his trial by the Roman governor was conducted at least partly in greek, as it was not uncommon in the provinces for greek to be used by Roman officials in their official dealings with local populations.


Mark A. Baker

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Used Car For Sale

Driven only by a government employee on government business, working for MI6, this 1964 Aston Martin DB5, comes equipped with machine guns, ejector seat, bulletproof shield, and other useful accessories designed by Q.

The car will be auctioned to the highest bidder on August 27, 2010. The sale price is expected to be in the neighborhood of three million dollars. If anyone wants to surprise me with a gift for Christmas, this is it, just what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0KeUE3EkJM&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgN50uAp4pg

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Ahh - now that's interesting. Thanks Leon. What a pity about the book. And what a pity also that Scientology developed so closed a mind about matters spiritual and a defiance about its own correctness so early on. I sometimes imagine how the movement might have been had it opened up to other possibilities as part of a wider conversation with the world in relation to the spiritual.

it isn't too late to do just as you describe.

 

[Enthetan]

Enthetan, I think I (and many others) witnessed proof of this this firsthand with the Mission takeover of the 80's. The history of Scientology might have been much more successful if the RTC had not been formed and this action (the Mission takeover) had not been allowed by the parishioners at the time. Oh well.

That depends on your definition of success. From the viewpoint of LRH, success meant his having total control over the money, and there being no independent opinion leaders who could challenge his orders as not being in accordance with his stated policy. The missions, with their cash reserves,
were too tempting a target for LRH. At the time of the crackdown, LRH knew he had only a few years left to live, so he might as well harvest what was available.

 

[RogerB]

Good morning world!

I see our thread was busy overnight.

On the MWH question, I think Paul is correct. But around 46-7 years ago or so when this tech first came out, my memory of the question was not "What did he do that made you think . . ." . . but "Did he do anything that made you feel . . . . ?" The other question used was, "What happened that made you feel . . . ?"

These are safer questions that would actually get what was there if there was something.

Rog

 

[lkwdblds]

If you get it, will you ever use the ejector seat?

Driven only by a government employee on government business, working for MI6, this 1964 Aston Martin DB5, comes equipped with machine guns, ejector seat, bulletproof shield, and other useful accessories designed by Q.

The car will be auctioned to the highest bidder on August 27, 2010. The sale price is expected to be in the neighborhood of three million dollars. If anyone wants to surprise me with a gift for Christmas, this is it, just what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0KeUE3EkJM&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgN50uAp4pg

I can see it now. Someone buys Carmelo this car. Shortly thereafter, Carmelo gets a phone call from DM asking for a meeting to consider burying the hatchet and merging forces. Carmelo invites him over to discuss the matter. DM sees the car and suggests taking a ride in it and holding the discusioon while riding in the Aston Martin. During that ride, DM gets out of line and tempers flare. In a moment of passion, Carmelo presses the button to activate the ejector seat. Phone rings at my house, I wake up, groggy, wondering if DM is injured and then realize it was only a dream.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

MAB appears to be correct on this one.

At the time of jesus the dominant population in the levant were seleucid greeks, present since the time of Alexander. These were descendents of greeks from various city states (especially Macedonia) and the other peoples native of the region. The dominant language was a common variation of greek, "koine" greek.

This included the areas of Roman Iudaea. Actual "Roman" Roman citizens in the area were few & far between. Similarly there were few speakers of latin. Most civilians were gentiles and speakers of koine greek. Some were also Roman citizens through a process akin to "naturalization", although these would have been a distinctly tiny minority.

The east was very much a mixed bag as far as culture went, although it was wholly dominated by koine greek speakers. Rome governed the region but the culture remained predominantly of greek influence, with that influence remaining even unto modern times.

Jesus very likely heard koine greek spoken when traveling in larger communities. It is quite possible that his trial by the Roman governor was conducted at least partly in greek, as it was not uncommon in the provinces for greek to be used by Roman officials in their official dealings with local populations.


Mark A. Baker

Three things to flesh out the knowledge for the readers:
1. I checked the mileage between Jerusalem and Athens and it 780 miles by car.
2. MAB appears to be completely correct in what he says.
3. I have included a link to some relevant articles on the topic from scholars and not just MAB.

http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm

Lakey

 

[Lurker5]

This

Betrayal of Self.

The last few days have called to my attention something I discovered and undid for myself some many years ago. It is something I see evidenced on ESMB all the time among some.

It is a subtle thing: something we unwittingly did to ourselves when we first considered L. Ron Hubbard had greater wisdom than us personally, and we thus abandoned our own truths, power to know and personal certainty in favor of his.

It was the moment we individually became cultized and lost our own determinism and ability to discover and know in our own right, but instead became dependent on Hubbard’s doctrines.

Some are still hung in that moment of what is actually a betrayal of self: that moment of the ceding our own sovereignty to another; the loss of one’s own certainty.

Some on ESMB are free from it. Some don’t know they are in violent opposition to it, protesting it but still stuck there. Others are still in it, seeing his wisdom as the greatest of all to not be violated.

Personally, I feel we each have the right and duty to know for ourselves; to investigate, research, discover and come to our own certainties of what is.

In my view, to do anything else is a betrayal of self and of one’s own honor and sovereignty.

As a young man, I did that to myself, unwittingly. And I paid a heavy price for it . . . though the spiritual damage of it is now repaired and long gone, the lost opportunities caused by it are also gone and they may or may not be recovered.

Either way, it is a lesson learned, the knowledge of which I’d like to offer to my friends on ESMB.

RogerB

This is most excellent. Have been thinking along these lines myself these last few days . . .

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

That depends on your definition of success. From the viewpoint of LRH, success meant his having total control over the money, and there being no independent opinion leaders who could challenge his orders as not being in accordance with his stated policy. The missions, with their cash reserves,
were too tempting a target for LRH. At the time of the crackdown, LRH knew he had only a few years left to live, so he might as well harvest what was available.

Around Christmas of 1981, my wife and I sent Christmas presents to Phil and Julie Spickler, who were plunking down money like it was going out of style for Flag auditing. The presents we sent were t shirts that we had made for them:

"The New Sea Org Motto:

Didja get the money?"


"The Clearwater Moving Target Assn." written clearly over a large red bullseye.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Before my reply to Rog, I just want to acknowledge Blip for what I consider a very fine post!

Rog, there is a first time for everythign. This is the first time I do not agree with an important part of one of your posts. It took me a lot of time to wade through MAB's last post but after all the evaluations and invalidations of me and trying to understand a very complex text, I finally did figure out what he was saying which is similar to your first paragraph above.

I still rejected his post and tend to view the issue as Veda views it in his post above. I made a personal statement about my own life by saying that I would like to cut all ties with Hubbard but I can not do so because of Hubbard's writings containing some elements, both in Tech and in Management, which many, including myself, find benifical. As a result of this, I can not jettison all of Hubbard's teachings and have to continually sort out what is good from what is evil. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING! I stand by this statement. It is just the way I feel so it is true for me right at this time. I should not be evaluated for and be pedantically schooled or lectured into some other way of feeling. I am allowed to state how I feel without being criticized or attacked.

Rog, your post is very different from MAB's You present a piece of tech in your opening paragraph and then embellish that with two follow up statements. My reaction is positive, I am refreshed and renewed and review things in my mind to see if perhaps I am making a mistake. You are getting me to look. It is a positive experience. MAB's posts are not like that. They are very complex and make no mistake about it, there is an intent in them to not only evaluate for me, which he freely admits but also to invalidate me. When I read his critical posts I tend to spin out, have bad physical reactions, feel caved in, etc.

Perhaps he is just not as skilled as you in trying to get someone to look or perhaps he is doing something hinky. I do not know which it is at this point but am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Just three days ago, I wrote of a major cognition which I had on the Disagreement Rundown in 1993. The cog was that I am not cut out to be the E.D. of a group but rather do best as a close confidant and technical advisor to the E.D. I related to the board that I first felt great about this cognition but then later began to think it was not the full E.P. which I needed to get because in a way I was a postuling that I did not have what it takes to be an E.D. and I did not want to do that.

Enters MAB and he states that I am dramatizing a Service Facsimile. I patiently explain to him how I feel about it and that I don't see any area of this cognition where I am trying to make myself right and make others wrong. Instead of just acking me, MAB states that it is definitely a Service Fac and by not owning up to it, I am dramatizing the service fac even stronger and what is more it shows PTSness and I don't necessarily have to be PTS to someone else but I may be PTS to one of my own "entities." He then recommends some processes and some sources I can read up on and perhaps handle my PTSness and Service Fac on my own.

NOW I ASK YOU, WHAT THE HECK IS MAB DOING? To me this is definitely hinky. He has never stated what his case state is or his training level is that I know of. Even if he is Class VIII, he would not have the right technically to pull this stunt and make this evaluation for me. Notice that he did not PM me but rather put this material out on our open Forum. His posts tend to discredit me before the members of this thread! If he was really trying to help me, he should have PM'ed.

FINALLY ROG, I WANT TO COMMENT ON THE LAST TWO SENTENCES OF YOUR POST.

It is your thoughts that trap you the most. I fully agree.

and it is by undoing now unapplicable thoughts that one gets free!

I also fully agree and believe I have been the "poster boy" to prove this point. I arrived on ESMB in February of last year, fully believing that LRH was a saint, that all the original LRH tech was valid and definitive and that all the ills of the C of S were caused by DM. I have jettisoned scores of unapplicable thoughts, all which have acted to free me. I have had enormous wins and blow downs along the away. My only disagreement with your post is that I still feel that at this point I still have some ties to Hubbard. This is how I feel. I may feel that way for unoptimum reasons and maybe need to dig deeper to find out why I feel that way, etc. but that is another topic for another day. Today I just feel that I still have some ties to Hubbard despite what MAB thinks about it and sad to say, even if you disagree with me.
Lakey

Lakey, I believe I understand what you are saying, and to me it seems perfectly natural and normal to be feeling as you do currently. I agree with you that I think it is a temporary state, that you have not reached the "ep" of this line of self-examination and learning about the greater world view of COS and it's belief systems. You are still making a transition from someone who not too long ago was a "true believer" in Ron and his works, to someone who is able to look at COS, it's and Ron's history from a different viewpoint, to get a clearer, more truthful and accurate look at it all.

It is to be expected that your viewpoints and feelings will change as you make the transition from "true believer" and loyal dues paying supporter to former Scientologist. This just seems natural and normal to me. Not "pts" at all. I think you're doing great, and am so glad you did not drop this thread, look at the great discussion party it's grown into! A very large tent indeed!

May I say that I agree with you, that I also feel that I still have "ties" to Hubbard, me who probably had less to do with him and his works than anyone else posting on this thread...because he still haunts the lives of several people whom I care about a great deal. I cannot say anything truthfully "critical" about Ron to my friend still in, or he disconnects from me for a time. Like it or lump it, this self imposed restriction on where he may look and what he may think impinges on me as well, and damages our relationship.

I do question Lakey, are you are allowing yourself to go a little pts to your viewpoints of what MAB has posted about this? That is something that you can handle, and I see you doing so in your posted responses.

Rog has shared some thoughts to assist with this, which are useful to all of us in avoiding "traps", or freeing ourselves from same.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else if you are making this transition in a "right" or "wrong" manner, there is no right or wrong about this journey. It is as individual as each former member's life experiences, authentic personality, hopes and dreams, etc. Each must follow their own path, and blaze their own trail to total freedom from Scientology and COS influence over their minds and their lives. I applaud you and others on your efforts to do so here and elsewhere, and the evidence of your collective and individual progress, which is GREAT!!!

My hope for this thread is that we can all do our best to support and encourage each other while each is finding their way with this journey...(and maybe play a little together and have some fun along the way, too. )

I want to make it clear that every single one of us (Ex or Non) is on a transitional journey of healing, each one of us has our own wounds and disappointments that must be tended to, that's just the process and progress of life...none of is is any higher or lower than another in this respect...one thing I truly HATE about the Scientologist mindset...

I'm not sure that MAB's intention was to attack or try to "make wrong", perhaps he was trying to help, and just worded things in a way that was less than helpful. That's easy enough for all of us to do, especially if we post in a hurry, without a lot of forethought for how our message may be received.

I won't try and evaluate his intention, as he can speak for himself, but what effects you is the way you felt about it, and your feelings are important. I have confidence in you that you are able to handle this in a way that will help further you forward in your personal journey.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

You Rascal!

Around Christmas of 1980, my wife and I sent Christmas presents to Phil and Julie Spickler, who were plunking down money like it was going out of style for Flag auditing. The presents we sent were t shirts that we had made for them:

"The New Sea Org Motto:

Didja get the money?"


"The Clearwater Moving Target Assn." written clearly over a large red bullseye.

LOL! Bet they didn't wear them to get audited in!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

I disagree, Leon. Years ago I valued Hubbard's words immensely, and collected them, and studied them. As I learned more and more about the man, I valued his words less and less. Now, I find that I cannot trust a single word he said in his entire lifetime. In any particular instance he may have spoken the truth as he saw it, or he may have knowingly lied, and there is no way at all to tell the difference except in those cases when it is obvious (like the missing 2nd wife).

So, for example, he writes about a process. He says when audited it produces such and such a result. But does it routinely do that? Did it ever? Did he ever actually audit it on anyone, even himself or his dog? He says a particular action in policy produces such and such a result. Does it? Did it ever?

All I can trust is that the wording of a process or a policy is such and such, assuming the evil transcriptionists didn't screw it up. And for 25 million words, or whatever, that isn't fucking much at all.

Paul

I am in total agreement with Paul on this one. Ron was a creative writer, and making stuff up was his livelihood for most of his adult life. That is the way I view ALL his writing and lecture works, the creation of Dianetics, Scientology and the COS.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Albeit mild, there was some initial interest from psychiatry/psychology. However, as early as 1950 the American Psychological Association passed a resolution stating: "the fact that these claims ( . . . in relation to Dianetics . . . ) are not supported by empirical evidence of the sort required for the establishment of scientific generalizations."

This infuriated Hubbard who was already upset with "the shrinks" for refusing his request for assistance to deal with his own psychological troubles after WWII.

The only formal scientific study of dianetic therapy in existence was prepared in 1953 by Harvey Jay Fischer of the School of Education of New York University and concluded that:



This was a further blow to Dianetics and, again, Hubbard took it personally. Scientology has refused since then to participate in any further academic or scientific analysis of its claims. The only evidence of efficacy is anecdotal and even adherents to this day refuse to accept or even consider the implications of a conflict between causative and co-relational confluence. Given the Fischer results, they probably don't understand the concept and, in light of Robert Devine's statement to Court in support of the Headley's suit, would find it difficult to reconcile anyway.

Hubbard was forced to come up with a new term for Dianetics after he lost the rights to the use of the name when he went broke. It was subsequently re-purchased but, like you say and given the reception to the work, it turned out to be fortunate. Very fortune-ate.

Ahh - now that's interesting. Thanks Leon. What a pity about the book. And what a pity also that Scientology developed so closed a mind about matters spiritual and a defiance about its own correctness so early on. I sometimes imagine how the movement might have been had it opened up to other possibilities as part of a wider conversation with the world in relation to the spiritual.
__________________

it isn't too late to do just as you describe.

Ummm...hey guys....aren't we doing it here? :confused2:

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Body Thetans were known before this. There was a very little known group of paople who migrated to South Africa from England - one was called Findlay, another was a lady Helen Quartermain. The had a group which dealt with these entities that surround the body and they had a practice to which people went for their - I suppose Clearing is what we'd call it.

Another person who was part of this was John Whiteman, for a long time professor of mathematics at The university of Cape Town. I spent a lovely afternoon with him once talking about these things, though he was more interested in telling me about his translations of Buddhist texts. Anyway, he as a child was aware of these entities and wrote a book on it. I had the book though I forget its name now. It was all long ago.

I don't think they even knew of LRH, nor he of thm. It was a completely independent group. Some guys from the Org once went to Quatermain for therapy in the late '70s and got booted straight into ethics afterwards.

They sound like Spiritualists or Theosophists to me...I think I can find this book.

 

[TR'SIN]

Most of the last posts are the reason I still go on this board. Its not all clear to me me yet. It hasn't been definatively vetted on all levels and I audited way too many and recieved way too many of my own re-habbed awareness's to cancel all things.

And even if Hubbard is not Source as we would have liked to believe, he was certainly clever enough to Smurf me more years than I care to admit. And lakey says it better than I do anyway.

For that - - - no props, too much damage; but way too much credability to discard the whole thing out of hand and we'll work on who gets the recognition later.

 

[FoTi]

Driven only by a government employee on government business, working for MI6, this 1964 Aston Martin DB5, comes equipped with machine guns, ejector seat, bulletproof shield, and other useful accessories designed by Q.

The car will be auctioned to the highest bidder on August 27, 2010. The sale price is expected to be in the neighborhood of three million dollars. If anyone wants to surprise me with a gift for Christmas, this is it, just what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0KeUE3EkJM&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgN50uAp4pg

I wonder if DM will try to get TC to donate the 3 mil so DM can buy this car and use this for his getaway, when the walls come tumblin' down....but before the walls actually crumble, he could take TC on rides....and let TC drive it. (I'm sure TC would enjoy that. ) And they could become even better friends.

Maybe he can get a license plate for it that says "IDEALORG". That way he could say that the money went to an Ideal Org. I wonder if that could be viewed as an 'acceptable truth'?

 

[Dulloldfart]

So who's desperate to make post #4000?

Paul

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Only an...

So who's desperate to make post #4000?

Paul

Ethics Particle would take a shot at that!