The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
- Start date
- Status
lkwdblds
Crusader
The same things said in different ways
I looked through my emails face and I could not find it, could you please send it again.
On being attacked, I don't like it but I realize its part of the game of posting. I just don't like being talked down to and I don't like assertions or pontifications because the person doing that is acting as if they are God. They say such and such is such and such a way and then give no back up whatsoever. I think that is total bullshit. If they pontificate in this manner one time, I am not going to do anything. If they keep it up, I am going to make a stand and speak my piece. There is nothing wrong with doing that. I always seek a friendly resolution and if that is not in the cards then I just cease reading that person's posts and commenting on them. MY GOD THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, IT IS JUST STANDING UP FOR ONE'S POINT OF VIEW.
What is wrong with not letting someone talk down to you or put you down without fighting back? The more uptone I am becomming, the more prone I am to fight back against slurs against me. What's wrong with stirring up more interest in the thread, more views, more replies, more people posting here. I am not always right and readily admit it when I am wrong.
Sometimes what causes me to be wrong is misduplication and that is particularly painful. It takes a lot of effort to restore communications if one party has misduplicated what another has said and then run with the ball and posted strongly based on wrong data. I have done this several times and have had to eat crow and I know that this has damaged my repute on ESMB.
There is not much more to say. Thinking of a parallel, I came up with the Howard Hughes Companies. Howard's father started the Hughes Tool Company which grew and became fairly successful but not a major corporation. His father is the founder of the Hughes business empire. That is the way it is and if his father had not started it, the future companies would never have existed. While the father was living, it was his company.
Howard Hughes built it into a giant corporation, Hughes Aircraft. This does not negate that his father was the founder. Howard Hughes did much more to further the status of the company than his father but once a guy starts something, it is his either until he sells it or dies. Its no big deal but that's just the way it is.
Lakey
Okay, Lakey if you and Carmelo say it's “Yours” then it's all “Yours” as far as I'm concerned…do as thou wilt.
You, and me and I believe Carmelo are all on the same page. It is my thread in one sense of the word simply because I started it. That's just the way it is. Its his thread because he's the one who decided to talk about everything, not just my experiences on the Apollo and at CC. It is your thread because you totally invigorated it both when you showed up and again when you disclosed your health issues. At times, its been Rogers thread, Ted's thread, Johnny Raffanello's thread, et al.
But, I’m gonna have my say and then I’ll be done with it—I think I might well have earned the right on Your thread to do that. Hope you had that breath of fresh air and vino before your read this ‘cause you told me straight…now I’m gonna tell you straight.
I can’t speak for other folks but, I have Dialogued with you quite a considerable bit, in my estimation. I post on what interests me, what and where I feel that I can make a contribution to this Moveable Feast and, sometimes, just for the fun of it. The periods where I don’t comment on your posts are when they either don’t “ring my chime” or I just feel it’s best to keep my mouth shut, quietly amused while you strut your Lakey alter-ego. Folks don’t comment on my posts all the time and that don’t bother me none at all. Although there was a time in my life that I had a somewhat considerable regional “Name”, “Reputation” and “Image” in some strata’s, I have no desire to be a Persona. The times in my life that I’ve tried to be “somebody”, or appear as “something”, or put up a “front” rendered me nearsighted, miserable and short of sleep. Some folks are real good at the Persona thing and those folks I have no problem with, ‘cause I appreciate and like to watch a good Bulldogger or Rodeo Clown as much as the next person.
What you are saying is that I've got an ego problem, right?
As is well established at this point, I’m not all that sophisticated, “Tech” savvy, computer literate or “Hep”. Because of that, I guess I don’t “get” the full panoply of your “Shtick” and am unable to appreciate its’ full value.
You see, having read your entire thread and been a passive, then active, participant for 18 months or so, I kinda had a different view of what was going on here. I appreciate you finally clueing me in. I thought that what happened was a very smart and forthright guy, with a terrific memory and unique "Take" had opened his heart about his life in Scn and a whole bunch of folks read it, appreciated it and Dialogued with him about. Then, one thing led to another, and a “Big Conversation” got started ‘cause of the quality of folks that guy had attracted. Then a couple of real fun folks that were pretty smart themselves wanted to help the smart guy water and tend to the “Garden” that was “Organically” growing.
So far so good. This all sounds correct. I think that terrific memory is starting to slip, either through age or the medications I take daily and that is contributing to tarnishing my image and reputation.
The quality, flavor and bounty of the stuff that was being produced in the Garden grew and some real expert Horticulturists showed up and, along with folks like me that can handle a hoe, pull a few weeds here and there and help pick the crop, the Garden has been growing through a series of phases of plant, grow, harvest, prepare to plant again and then another crop cycle plays itself out. Fool that I am, I thought the reason your thread was read so much was because it was a unique marvel of “Continual Spontaneous Self Ordered Criticality” of human thought, expression, sharing, laughter, etc…in short, Life doing its’ thing; Living.
We agree totally!
From where I’m sittin’ it appears to me that, by far, the bulk of the hits that have driven your thread over the last 8 or 9 months I’ve been here are the Guest Lurkers. It’s my opinion that a big chunk of them are not reading along day-to-day on the current happenings here and, even if they are, they're picking their way around and through the immense resource that folks have placed on your thread. I post on your thread because of who is here, how they are, the constant collaborative fountain of Universe Class Stuff they put up, what that augers within me and, honestly, how wonderfully well I have been treated here. I post for my friends, I post for whomever else may have an interest and cares to read my stuff and—this is huge for me—I post for the Guest Lurkers…they’re the folks, more than anyone else…that need me to share with them what I saw and how I now see “It” when I was a face in the crowd. I’ve realized that I, in turn, need to share with them. After all, just like Scn and the SO, I was one them once.
Your posts are of incalculable value in enhancing the thread. We are all deeply indebted to you.
I’m sorry you were attacked. I’ve been attacked on ESMB, too. One time, in particular, was pretty damn clever and vicious, and was done on the Karen thread. I had tried to call for “Peace”, admitting that I had inadvertently gotten roped into helping to instigate a couple of folks to shred her thread. I made what I thought was a very plain and folksy post, apologized for what I had done and said I would not post on the thread again until Karen did…some folks, icluding Zinj and Alanzo, liked and agreed with my post and took the same “not until Karen returns” oath. I got viciously and snidely berated for that post and told, literally, to “Fuck Off” by another Member. I stuck to my guns and have never answered that post and never comment on anything I might come across that Member puts up.
People can tell me to “Fuck Off” all they wish on the internet…it goes with the new territory of putting up a false front or adopting a “Cyber Personality” so that you can continue to be a Child or “Play Act” or publicly vent your spleen all over yourself. That’s not my world and never will be. I’m not on Facebook or any of that stuff of that ilk and have no interest in doing so. The only place I ever have posted on the internet is on ESMB. In the real world that I live in the folks I associate with would never tell me to “Fuck Off” and folks around these parts would not say it to me, face to Face, unless they were drunk, real foolish or crazy—that’s not brag, that’s just fact.
I’m not smart enough to “play cards” (got a short-carded deck, anyway) or calculate a strategy on how, when or what way to “stir a pot”. But, like you said, it’s your thread and you’re the only one holdin’ the “Race Card”. So, you go on doin’ what you feel gotta do and I’ll go on doin’ what I feel I gotta do. I wouldn’t have brought all this up, nor taken the time to put down my heartfelt thoughts if I didn’t respect you, admire you for what you started and care about you, personally—as opposed to the “Lakey Persona”.
If you wish, with my compliments, I yield the “Last Word” to you, my friend.
Peace Bro,
Face
PS: At the risk of being publicly rude, if you ever get around to reading the Email I sent you a week or so ago, it might help you "get my drift".
I looked through my emails face and I could not find it, could you please send it again.
On being attacked, I don't like it but I realize its part of the game of posting. I just don't like being talked down to and I don't like assertions or pontifications because the person doing that is acting as if they are God. They say such and such is such and such a way and then give no back up whatsoever. I think that is total bullshit. If they pontificate in this manner one time, I am not going to do anything. If they keep it up, I am going to make a stand and speak my piece. There is nothing wrong with doing that. I always seek a friendly resolution and if that is not in the cards then I just cease reading that person's posts and commenting on them. MY GOD THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, IT IS JUST STANDING UP FOR ONE'S POINT OF VIEW.
What is wrong with not letting someone talk down to you or put you down without fighting back? The more uptone I am becomming, the more prone I am to fight back against slurs against me. What's wrong with stirring up more interest in the thread, more views, more replies, more people posting here. I am not always right and readily admit it when I am wrong.
Sometimes what causes me to be wrong is misduplication and that is particularly painful. It takes a lot of effort to restore communications if one party has misduplicated what another has said and then run with the ball and posted strongly based on wrong data. I have done this several times and have had to eat crow and I know that this has damaged my repute on ESMB.
There is not much more to say. Thinking of a parallel, I came up with the Howard Hughes Companies. Howard's father started the Hughes Tool Company which grew and became fairly successful but not a major corporation. His father is the founder of the Hughes business empire. That is the way it is and if his father had not started it, the future companies would never have existed. While the father was living, it was his company.
Howard Hughes built it into a giant corporation, Hughes Aircraft. This does not negate that his father was the founder. Howard Hughes did much more to further the status of the company than his father but once a guy starts something, it is his either until he sells it or dies. Its no big deal but that's just the way it is.
Lakey
Last edited:
MattD
Patron with Honors
Right. You also said not to pm you and say anything I had to say, in open forums, so I did.
I have edited my post about Mate to reflect the higher esteem I have for him as the result of talking with him. You are correct that it was rude and uncalled for.
Are you finished trolling me now?
Matt
Veda
Sponsor
Right. You also said not to pm you and say anything I had to say, in open forums, so I did.
I have edited my post about Mate to reflect the higher esteem I have for him as the result of talking with him. You are correct that it was rude and uncalled for.
Are you finished trolling me now?
Matt
Alright. One more time
: I acknowledged receiving your PM in a return PM to you. That means I read it and understood it. I made a point of letting you know that I received your message so you would feel that your message was received and understood. Apparently, you wanted me to argue with you, or to try to change your mind, and when that didn't happen you, then, posted the same - identical - PM on the board, on this thread.
What you needed to do, if you still wanted to communicate, was initiate another message - not the identical PM message.
That's pretty simple isn't it?
By the way, adding together your PM, your posted PM, and your other posts, your accusations of my being a troll are adding up. Are you keeping count?
RogerB
Crusader
Lakey wrote:
WOT?? Nah, no way . . . . maybe a bit "me centric" . . . but hey, Lakey, it keeps us entertained.
Come to think of it, a count of the number of times the word "I" and things about "me" occur in posts would be an interesting exercise, no?
Ditto the number of times accusations directed against the "you's" of the world are voiced.
Jeeezzzuzz, scrap that idea. It might just cut the traffic on ESMB in half!
R
WOT?? Nah, no way . . . . maybe a bit "me centric" . . . but hey, Lakey, it keeps us entertained.
Come to think of it, a count of the number of times the word "I" and things about "me" occur in posts would be an interesting exercise, no?
Ditto the number of times accusations directed against the "you's" of the world are voiced.
Jeeezzzuzz, scrap that idea. It might just cut the traffic on ESMB in half!
R
RogerB
Crusader
On the Subject of Data
On the subject of “data.”
This word data came up on the thread earlier.
Here’s Roger’s take and thing on it.
Data is/are merely representations of actuality. Data is not the actual, the real or truth. It is merely representations of these things.
Data in actuality is a representation of the actual in various forms, as for example in written form, spoken form, “thought” form (mental image representations) of the actual.
Folks who get hooked on thinkingness, intellectualizing and rumination are actually only addressing and shuffling about symbolized representations of actuality in their minds.
That is a long way away from actively dealing with the actual or the truth of life and action.
When one comes up mood from the thinkingness trick of dealing with symbolized representations of the actual, and begins to deal with the actuality of life, one can often begin to suffer untoward emotions such as apathy, grief, hostility in the relationship with the real life actuality. Going further up mood, one begins to become more and more truth in action in dealing with the actuality of life.
At the highest level, one can be at-one with life and its actualities and know them. There is no rumination or “think about” at that level. One deals directly with the actual, at one with it.
Hmmm, I expect this little ditty will spark, maybe, some fireworks?
RogerB
On the subject of “data.”
This word data came up on the thread earlier.
Here’s Roger’s take and thing on it.
Data is/are merely representations of actuality. Data is not the actual, the real or truth. It is merely representations of these things.
Data in actuality is a representation of the actual in various forms, as for example in written form, spoken form, “thought” form (mental image representations) of the actual.
Folks who get hooked on thinkingness, intellectualizing and rumination are actually only addressing and shuffling about symbolized representations of actuality in their minds.
That is a long way away from actively dealing with the actual or the truth of life and action.
When one comes up mood from the thinkingness trick of dealing with symbolized representations of the actual, and begins to deal with the actuality of life, one can often begin to suffer untoward emotions such as apathy, grief, hostility in the relationship with the real life actuality. Going further up mood, one begins to become more and more truth in action in dealing with the actuality of life.
At the highest level, one can be at-one with life and its actualities and know them. There is no rumination or “think about” at that level. One deals directly with the actual, at one with it.
Hmmm, I expect this little ditty will spark, maybe, some fireworks?
RogerB
Tut tut.
Somehow I don't think that Knowledgism would ever have come into existence without the grounding Alan first received in Scientology. I think his indebtedness to Scio was far far greater that he was ever willing to admit and I think it was churlish of him not to do so.
He got into a huff and put me onto his ignore list when I dared to compare his four "Zones" to the Tone Scale. Yet LRH himself called them the Zones in Book One - all Alan did was give them colours to replace the numbers. I mean really! No connection?
I really don't mind guys taking Scio further than LRH ever did or rewording it to make it more understandable. There is nothing at all wrong with that - hell, I have done it myself too. But at least give credit where some credit is due.
me myself & i
Patron Meritorious
At the highest level, one can be at-one with life and its actualities and know them. There is no rumination or “think about” at that level. One deals directly with the actual, at one with it.
Hmmm, I expect this little ditty will spark, maybe, some fireworks?
RogerB
How Dare You ! You Idiot !!! Where do you get off saying such stuff? !!!!
Just kidding. lol.
I find the absence of unnecessary thought to be akin to experiencing an ocean breeze without a towel draped over my body.
Thought is an addition to Being (not a pre-curser of it) . Useful and times. At other times not.
mm&i
afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
Terril park
Sponsor
This is beyond questioning.
It is valid for him to differentiate his evolved tech[ if it was]
to that which he formerly espoused.
Normal academic in fights. Bless them.
afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
On the subject of “data.”
This word data came up on the thread earlier.
Here’s Roger’s take and thing on it.
Data is/are merely representations of actuality. Data is not the actual, the real or truth. It is merely representations of these things.
Data in actuality is a representation of the actual in various forms, as for example in written form, spoken form, “thought” form (mental image representations) of the actual.
Folks who get hooked on thinkingness, intellectualizing and rumination are actually only addressing and shuffling about symbolized representations of actuality in their minds.
That is a long way away from actively dealing with the actual or the truth of life and action.
When one comes up mood from the thinkingness trick of dealing with symbolized representations of the actual, and begins to deal with the actuality of life, one can often begin to suffer untoward emotions such as apathy, grief, hostility in the relationship with the real life actuality. Going further up mood, one begins to become more and more truth in action in dealing with the actuality of life.
At the highest level, one can be at-one with life and its actualities and know them. There is no rumination or “think about” at that level. One deals directly with the actual, at one with it.
Hmmm, I expect this little ditty will spark, maybe, some fireworks?
RogerB
Give the man a box of Kewpie Dolls!!!
Face
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Give the man a box of Kewpie Dolls!!!
Face
He phrases things, that intuitively, I know, but could no more put into words than fly to the Moon.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Well Rog, I liken the development of spiritual tech to the development of mathematics. The mathematical discipline of Analysis is the modern application of the Newtonian Calculus as it has been extended to more evolved coordinate frames and mathematical rigor. The Calculus accordingly has been greatly expanded upon beyond the original intent & foundations that Newton established. In that process over centuries many significant deficiencies in Newton's original work have been addressed and corrected. Nonetheless, Newton's original work was revolutionary for his time and remains remarkably influential, largely through derivatives such as Analysis, to this day.
I can understand on many levels Alan's view of Knowledgism as greatly surpassing the subject of scientology as laid out by Hubbard, and his reticience to see it "tainted" by association with Hubbard & his cult. Still, the two disciplines do have much in common.
Like Leon, I'm inclined to a view that Alan's development of Knowledgism owes much to the foundation afforded to Alan through his acquisition of a base of knowledge & experience as a result of his early involvement with the subject of scientology. Just as Hubbard's work was clearly not "ex nihilo", neither was Alan's.
Besides, as a chemist in the 20th century was able to show (http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/purse): with the aid of a modern approach to technology one CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Mark A. Baker
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Let's take a break, light up a Lucky, and watch the show!
L.S. / M.F.T.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC2r89ih-Hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC2r89ih-Hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iiajHtSV3Y&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBs9lpnZDi4&NR=1
Now that you've watched some or all of this 1950's half hour TV show, can we talk about dichotomies, balancing of positive and negative in life?
Jack and Mel, Don, and Rochester were funny. Art Linkletter is sleazy. The singer wasn't anything to write home about. But none of this would have made the air without Lucky Strike paying the bills.
I've never liked cigarette smoke. I smoked a pack of menthol cigs, but didn't inhale when I was about 19. Cigarettes make your house, car, clothes, and body stink. And they cause cancer.
On the other hand, I like Jack Benny brought to us by Luckies. I have a green metal tin made before Lucky Strike green had gone to war. It is beautiful. I bought it a long time ago at an antique show, and I still like it. There are gorgeous ads that ran in Life and Look Magazines that Lucky paid for.
What I'm getting at is that I don't know if there is anything in the physical universe set up where you can only have positive outcomes. Without the negatives, the positives become blah. Or vice versa. Negatives give a basis of comparison. The saying, "You never miss the water , till the well runs dry." is really true. Without bad things, good things are not as valuable.
If you look at any hero of history, you can judge that person with 21st century values and that person comes up short. Take Jefferson and the slave sweetheart and their children.
I'm not saying there is no reason for trying. I'm just saying the game, when looked at from afar, just reduces to two steps forward and one step back.
Take any invention dynamite, computers, whatever. They can be used for good or evil.
It is a very funny world.
The solution, as I see it, is to own the full effect - the pan determined game point of view.
Would anyone care to comment?
L.S. / M.F.T.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC2r89ih-Hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC2r89ih-Hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iiajHtSV3Y&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBs9lpnZDi4&NR=1
Now that you've watched some or all of this 1950's half hour TV show, can we talk about dichotomies, balancing of positive and negative in life?
Jack and Mel, Don, and Rochester were funny. Art Linkletter is sleazy. The singer wasn't anything to write home about. But none of this would have made the air without Lucky Strike paying the bills.
I've never liked cigarette smoke. I smoked a pack of menthol cigs, but didn't inhale when I was about 19. Cigarettes make your house, car, clothes, and body stink. And they cause cancer.
On the other hand, I like Jack Benny brought to us by Luckies. I have a green metal tin made before Lucky Strike green had gone to war. It is beautiful. I bought it a long time ago at an antique show, and I still like it. There are gorgeous ads that ran in Life and Look Magazines that Lucky paid for.
What I'm getting at is that I don't know if there is anything in the physical universe set up where you can only have positive outcomes. Without the negatives, the positives become blah. Or vice versa. Negatives give a basis of comparison. The saying, "You never miss the water , till the well runs dry." is really true. Without bad things, good things are not as valuable.
If you look at any hero of history, you can judge that person with 21st century values and that person comes up short. Take Jefferson and the slave sweetheart and their children.
I'm not saying there is no reason for trying. I'm just saying the game, when looked at from afar, just reduces to two steps forward and one step back.
Take any invention dynamite, computers, whatever. They can be used for good or evil.
It is a very funny world.
The solution, as I see it, is to own the full effect - the pan determined game point of view.
Would anyone care to comment?
Last edited:
FoTi
Crusader
On the subject of “data.”
This word data came up on the thread earlier.
Here’s Roger’s take and thing on it.
Data is/are merely representations of actuality. Data is not the actual, the real or truth. It is merely representations of these things.
Data in actuality is a representation of the actual in various forms, as for example in written form, spoken form, “thought” form (mental image representations) of the actual.
Folks who get hooked on thinkingness, intellectualizing and rumination are actually only addressing and shuffling about symbolized representations of actuality in their minds.
That is a long way away from actively dealing with the actual or the truth of life and action.
When one comes up mood from the thinkingness trick of dealing with symbolized representations of the actual, and begins to deal with the actuality of life, one can often begin to suffer untoward emotions such as apathy, grief, hostility in the relationship with the real life actuality. Going further up mood, one begins to become more and more truth in action in dealing with the actuality of life.
At the highest level, one can be at-one with life and its actualities and know them. There is no rumination or “think about” at that level. One deals directly with the actual, at one with it.
Hmmm, I expect this little ditty will spark, maybe, some fireworks?
RogerB
Yeh, this is the place to be.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Starbucks Coming to India
by Ammu Kannampilly – 2 hrs 10 mins ago
NEW DELHI (AFP) – Starbucks will soon appear on Indian streets as the US group bets on lifestyle changes that are turning the tea-drinking country into a booming market for cafes.
India's appetite for the bitter brew has never been stronger, with its overwhelmingly young population opting to while away time in shiny Western-style cafes instead of the traditional coffeehouses.
Starbucks said earlier this month it will enter India through a tie-up with the country's biggest coffee producer, Tata Coffee, sourcing beans from south India and roasting them locally. The first store is expected in six months.
Arun Bhardwaj, vice president for emerging business at Starbucks, told AFP by email that it was "premature" to talk specifics about the group's strategy, but it is expected to adapt its menu to local tastebuds.
US chains Pizza Hut and McDonald's have "Indianised" their offerings, selling Indian cottage cheese pizzas and spicy potato burgers to woo subcontinental consumers.
Despite its reputation for tea, India has a long-standing coffee-drinking tradition, particularly in the southern state of Tamil Nadu where it is often brewed overnight, then mixed with milk and sugar before being served.
But old-school cafes like the 53-year-old Indian Coffee House chain, which popularised south Indian filter coffee, are now struggling to make a profit while hipper, Western-style chains are opening outlets every month.
A South Indian filter coffee typically costs as little as 10 rupees (about 22 US cents) at small restaurants, but increasingly affluent Indians in urban areas are choosing to sip on cappuccinos costing up to 75 rupees instead.
The change in tastes has less to do with a fondness for Italian espresso, say analysts, and more to do with the social cachet conferred by the beverage in class-conscious India, analysts say.
Harish Bijoor, a brand specialist with expertise in coffee told AFP, "unlike tea, coffee -- particularly espresso-based coffee -- isn't easy to make. It takes a lot more preparation, so there's an aura of sophistication around it."
But the US coffee giant is far from the first to see the potential in the growing affluence of India's young population.
In addition to the Indian-owned Cafe Coffee Day chain which leads the pack with more than 1,000 outlets, foreign-owned chains Barista Lavazza and Costa Coffee are already present and plan to open more stores.
Vijay Chugh, vice-president of Mumbai's Ambit Capital brokerage, said Starbucks would "have to ramp up fast" and open several outlets by 2012 because their competition has a headstart in India.
British-based Costa Coffee's international marketing head Mita Padhi told AFP she was "not worried" by the prospect of new competition as "we already compete with Starbucks in many markets."
India's coffee market has enough space for a slew of brands, according to Cafe Coffee Day's head of marketing K. Ramakrishnan.
"Only 22 percent of urban youth are going to cafes now so there's lots of room for growth," he said.
Brand specialist Bijoor agreed.
"The Indian market can house about 5,400 cafes. Currently less than one-third of those cafes exist so there's plenty of opportunity for Starbucks and other chains," he told AFP.
But despite all the growth in the domestic coffee market, Indians remain overwhelmingly tea drinkers.
They consumed around 700,000 tonnes of tea grown in the country last year compared with 75,000 tonnes of coffee, according to the Tea Board and Coffee Board of India.
by Ammu Kannampilly – 2 hrs 10 mins ago
NEW DELHI (AFP) – Starbucks will soon appear on Indian streets as the US group bets on lifestyle changes that are turning the tea-drinking country into a booming market for cafes.
India's appetite for the bitter brew has never been stronger, with its overwhelmingly young population opting to while away time in shiny Western-style cafes instead of the traditional coffeehouses.
Starbucks said earlier this month it will enter India through a tie-up with the country's biggest coffee producer, Tata Coffee, sourcing beans from south India and roasting them locally. The first store is expected in six months.
Arun Bhardwaj, vice president for emerging business at Starbucks, told AFP by email that it was "premature" to talk specifics about the group's strategy, but it is expected to adapt its menu to local tastebuds.
US chains Pizza Hut and McDonald's have "Indianised" their offerings, selling Indian cottage cheese pizzas and spicy potato burgers to woo subcontinental consumers.
Despite its reputation for tea, India has a long-standing coffee-drinking tradition, particularly in the southern state of Tamil Nadu where it is often brewed overnight, then mixed with milk and sugar before being served.
But old-school cafes like the 53-year-old Indian Coffee House chain, which popularised south Indian filter coffee, are now struggling to make a profit while hipper, Western-style chains are opening outlets every month.
A South Indian filter coffee typically costs as little as 10 rupees (about 22 US cents) at small restaurants, but increasingly affluent Indians in urban areas are choosing to sip on cappuccinos costing up to 75 rupees instead.
The change in tastes has less to do with a fondness for Italian espresso, say analysts, and more to do with the social cachet conferred by the beverage in class-conscious India, analysts say.
Harish Bijoor, a brand specialist with expertise in coffee told AFP, "unlike tea, coffee -- particularly espresso-based coffee -- isn't easy to make. It takes a lot more preparation, so there's an aura of sophistication around it."
But the US coffee giant is far from the first to see the potential in the growing affluence of India's young population.
In addition to the Indian-owned Cafe Coffee Day chain which leads the pack with more than 1,000 outlets, foreign-owned chains Barista Lavazza and Costa Coffee are already present and plan to open more stores.
Vijay Chugh, vice-president of Mumbai's Ambit Capital brokerage, said Starbucks would "have to ramp up fast" and open several outlets by 2012 because their competition has a headstart in India.
British-based Costa Coffee's international marketing head Mita Padhi told AFP she was "not worried" by the prospect of new competition as "we already compete with Starbucks in many markets."
India's coffee market has enough space for a slew of brands, according to Cafe Coffee Day's head of marketing K. Ramakrishnan.
"Only 22 percent of urban youth are going to cafes now so there's lots of room for growth," he said.
Brand specialist Bijoor agreed.
"The Indian market can house about 5,400 cafes. Currently less than one-third of those cafes exist so there's plenty of opportunity for Starbucks and other chains," he told AFP.
But despite all the growth in the domestic coffee market, Indians remain overwhelmingly tea drinkers.
They consumed around 700,000 tonnes of tea grown in the country last year compared with 75,000 tonnes of coffee, according to the Tea Board and Coffee Board of India.
CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
- Status