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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
:yes: Waiting patiently. :coolwink:

The Facebook page that your daughter put up since 2 weeks ago is chuck full of vacation shots that weren't there before. She really enjoys being in a family. Her 8 year old will remember those years when she is an old old lady. You can tell how very loved she is. She's a lucky little girl. Her mom and dad find the good camp sites.
Hell, Yogi Bear Campground was the only place to hang out off Wekiva Springs Rd when I was up that way. I remember those canoe rentals. You were totally on your own. No supervision. No call box for help. No monitoring of possible hazards on a daily basis. Some canoes were more stable than others, but still they weren't the greatest. :omg:
Remember the big black innertubes they used to give you to sink your butt into so the current could rocket your ass downstream? :eyeroll:


Still totally on your own on those canoe rentals.

Still can cool your butt off in inner tubes floating down stream. Might have to bring your own. I will have to check that out.

Can get a cool beer or soda and sumptin to eat at Wekiva. It is a very popular hangout with family and friends when the weather is right.

:D:D:D
 
Why Mormons Don't Drink Coffee or Tea

by Lura Lee

Have you noticed that most followers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) commonly called Mormons, don't drink coffee or tea? You'll see them enjoying herbal teas (tisanes), hot cider, and many true believers even drink caffeinated soda. The casual observer may jump to the conclusion that this is 1) a law, 2) must have something to do with caffeine. Neither is accurate. This article goes into detail to explain the historical significance, context, and modern interpretation of the prohibition/exhortation against coffee and tea for Mormons.



The Word of Wisdom

Followers of the LDS church believe in a book of scripture called The Book of Mormon, and the concept of continuous revelation. They believe that the Holy Spirit continues to communicate with humans. Thus, the prophet Joseph Smith received a spontaneous manifestation of God's insight for living correctly on February 27, 1833. This insight was written down and incorporated into the Doctrines and Covenants of the Church; specifically, these insights are referred to as the Word of Wisdom. It may be an apocryphal story, but it is said that Joseph Smith was moved to ask for God's insight on the matter of tobacco, and the revelation that resulted included guidance related to the use of tobacco, "warm drinks","strong drinks", wine, meat, herbs and grains.

A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days
Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
The common hot drinks of the time were coffee and tea. But this was a dietary shift for Joseph Smith's contemporaries, the generation of Mormon Pioneers.


No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn M. Brodie

Mormon Pioneers

Mormon pioneers had a relatively high literacy rate compared to other people around the world in the 1830s - 1850s. To a large extent, this can be attributed to the fact that they had Protestant roots and they needed to read Scripture in order to properly practice their religious beliefs. Keep in mind that the United States at this time had no federal program of education for its citizenry. Most states and municipalities didn't either. Compulsory, standardized, universal education was a reform of the early 1900s. Still, many of the middle-class pioneers were literate, kept diaries and read guide books prior to embarking on the overland journey west to Utah, which came to be known as the Mormon Trail.

The most popular books of the time were: William Clayton's The Latter Day Saint's Emigrant's Guide (1848), and Joseph Ware's The Emigrant's Guide to California (1849). All of the guides of the time included recommendations for provisioning the wagons. For example, Andrew Child's Overland Route guidebook included foodstuff recommendation for three men to include 50 pounds of coffee and 2 pounds of tea, even the LDS leadership recommended packing coffee, tea, and alcohol for the 1846 overland journey. But while they were packing the wagons, they may have contemplated the advantages of quitting any coffee or tea habit they had acquired while living in Illinois. They were fleeing religious persecution, after all, so they intended to minimize contact with non-believers, and coffee and tea won't grow in Utah. So, to some extent, the rejection of tea and coffee amongst the Mormon Pioneers was a mechanism for building Mormon identity at the most basic, formative, constitutive level.

Next to Godliness?

The current debate over coffee, tea, caffeine, and other "hot drinks" boils down to a difference in interpretation about whether this particular portion of the Doctrines and Covenants is an outright prohibition or merely counsel. During the Temperance movement years, the Mormons referred to the Word of Wisdom to eschew alcohol consumption, and became associated with strict Prohibition reform. Around 1921, the Mormon Church switched from the use of wine in religious ceremony to water. Today, it seems that full participation in the Church (participation in the Mormon Temple) is granted to those who are strict adherents to the Words of Wisdom. But there is still room for debate on the specifics of what it means to "strictly" adhere to the tenets of the Words of Wisdom. Even today, there is a lot of discussion about whether it is just coffee and tea, whether cola is ok, whether decaf coffee and tea are ok, etc.

Essentially, the Church leaders recommend the rejection of any drink that might be habit forming. "With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided."(Clifford J. Stratton, "Caffeine--The Subtle Addiction," Tambuli, Mar. 1990, 25)

Now, coffee is seen as part of that slippery slope that leads away from God. Coffee, booze, marijuana, cocaine... all a defilement of the temple that God gave us.

If Not Coffee -- What?

So, in lieu of coffee, what hot beverages do Mormons enjoy? Well, they used to drink Postum. They were crazy for Postum. Postum was a roasted grain and molasses drink produced by Kraft foods. It was discontinued from production in 2007. Mormons also favor the following drinks served both warm and cold: herbal tinctures, milk, and non-alcoholic apple drinks. They also enjoy Italian sodas, fruit drinks, and milkshakes.

Will the Next President Drink Coffee?

Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney isn't interested in highlighting the differences between the LDS Church and other Christians. So he holds meet-n-greets in coffee shops where no one bothers to ask what's in the coffee mug.



Separate but Together

To a large extent the Mormon decision to not drink coffee or tea is born out of a desire to separate from the common, everyday world. Mormons separate from worldly temptations in order to be closer to God. They also separate from other Christians, Muslims, and Jews in order to bind to one another and establish identity as a group. One tangible way in which they are separate but together is through the tradition of abstaining from coffee and tea.

Published: January 2008, Last Modified: June 2010
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Very Interesting - I always wondered about this!

Why Mormons Don't Drink Coffee or Tea

by Lura Lee

Have you noticed that most followers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) commonly called Mormons, don't drink coffee or tea? You'll see them enjoying herbal teas (tisanes), hot cider, and many true believers even drink caffeinated soda. The casual observer may jump to the conclusion that this is 1) a law, 2) must have something to do with caffeine. Neither is accurate. This article goes into detail to explain the historical significance, context, and modern interpretation of the prohibition/exhortation against coffee and tea for Mormons.



The Word of Wisdom

Followers of the LDS church believe in a book of scripture called The Book of Mormon, and the concept of continuous revelation. They believe that the Holy Spirit continues to communicate with humans. Thus, the prophet Joseph Smith received a spontaneous manifestation of God's insight for living correctly on February 27, 1833. This insight was written down and incorporated into the Doctrines and Covenants of the Church; specifically, these insights are referred to as the Word of Wisdom. It may be an apocryphal story, but it is said that Joseph Smith was moved to ask for God's insight on the matter of tobacco, and the revelation that resulted included guidance related to the use of tobacco, "warm drinks","strong drinks", wine, meat, herbs and grains.

A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days
Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
The common hot drinks of the time were coffee and tea. But this was a dietary shift for Joseph Smith's contemporaries, the generation of Mormon Pioneers.


No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn M. Brodie

Mormon Pioneers

Mormon pioneers had a relatively high literacy rate compared to other people around the world in the 1830s - 1850s. To a large extent, this can be attributed to the fact that they had Protestant roots and they needed to read Scripture in order to properly practice their religious beliefs. Keep in mind that the United States at this time had no federal program of education for its citizenry. Most states and municipalities didn't either. Compulsory, standardized, universal education was a reform of the early 1900s. Still, many of the middle-class pioneers were literate, kept diaries and read guide books prior to embarking on the overland journey west to Utah, which came to be known as the Mormon Trail.

The most popular books of the time were: William Clayton's The Latter Day Saint's Emigrant's Guide (1848), and Joseph Ware's The Emigrant's Guide to California (1849). All of the guides of the time included recommendations for provisioning the wagons. For example, Andrew Child's Overland Route guidebook included foodstuff recommendation for three men to include 50 pounds of coffee and 2 pounds of tea, even the LDS leadership recommended packing coffee, tea, and alcohol for the 1846 overland journey. But while they were packing the wagons, they may have contemplated the advantages of quitting any coffee or tea habit they had acquired while living in Illinois. They were fleeing religious persecution, after all, so they intended to minimize contact with non-believers, and coffee and tea won't grow in Utah. So, to some extent, the rejection of tea and coffee amongst the Mormon Pioneers was a mechanism for building Mormon identity at the most basic, formative, constitutive level.

Next to Godliness?

The current debate over coffee, tea, caffeine, and other "hot drinks" boils down to a difference in interpretation about whether this particular portion of the Doctrines and Covenants is an outright prohibition or merely counsel. During the Temperance movement years, the Mormons referred to the Word of Wisdom to eschew alcohol consumption, and became associated with strict Prohibition reform. Around 1921, the Mormon Church switched from the use of wine in religious ceremony to water. Today, it seems that full participation in the Church (participation in the Mormon Temple) is granted to those who are strict adherents to the Words of Wisdom. But there is still room for debate on the specifics of what it means to "strictly" adhere to the tenets of the Words of Wisdom. Even today, there is a lot of discussion about whether it is just coffee and tea, whether cola is ok, whether decaf coffee and tea are ok, etc.

Essentially, the Church leaders recommend the rejection of any drink that might be habit forming. "With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided."(Clifford J. Stratton, "Caffeine--The Subtle Addiction," Tambuli, Mar. 1990, 25)

Now, coffee is seen as part of that slippery slope that leads away from God. Coffee, booze, marijuana, cocaine... all a defilement of the temple that God gave us.

If Not Coffee -- What?

So, in lieu of coffee, what hot beverages do Mormons enjoy? Well, they used to drink Postum. They were crazy for Postum. Postum was a roasted grain and molasses drink produced by Kraft foods. It was discontinued from production in 2007. Mormons also favor the following drinks served both warm and cold: herbal tinctures, milk, and non-alcoholic apple drinks. They also enjoy Italian sodas, fruit drinks, and milkshakes.

Will the Next President Drink Coffee?

Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney isn't interested in highlighting the differences between the LDS Church and other Christians. So he holds meet-n-greets in coffee shops where no one bothers to ask what's in the coffee mug.



Separate but Together

To a large extent the Mormon decision to not drink coffee or tea is born out of a desire to separate from the common, everyday world. Mormons separate from worldly temptations in order to be closer to God. They also separate from other Christians, Muslims, and Jews in order to bind to one another and establish identity as a group. One tangible way in which they are separate but together is through the tradition of abstaining from coffee and tea.

Published: January 2008, Last Modified: June 2010


Thanks Carmelo! The Apollo thread comes through again! I always wondered about this and just assumed it was due to the caffeine in coffee and tea. Some Mormons also told me that when drinks were heated too much, it was hard on the stomach to handle them.

Its really nice to get grooved in on this strange practice of LDS.
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Granddaughters, too!

My 8-year old has been riding horses since she was three. She climbs trees higher than any boy would dare; fishes with her dad, and paddles her own kayak across big water. She's also teacher's pet in school. If I ever get the gumption to read the recipe and post some pix I'll put a few up for ya.

Way cool, Ted.:thumbsup: Love to see the pics.:yes:I'm not on Fbook.

I don't have any grandchildren yet. According to my Daughters, there's lots and lots of boys available for dating but very few men for marrying to be found anywhere in their generation.:confused2:

Face:)
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks Carmelo! The Apollo thread comes through again! I always wondered about this and just assumed it was due to the caffeine in coffee and tea. Some Mormons also told me that when drinks were heated too much, it was hard on the stomach to handle them.

Its really nice to get grooved in on this strange practice of LDS.
Lakey


Not so strange.

My grandmother is a member of this church. She does not drink coffee. Her morning constitution consisted of a cup of warm water with lemon. She is presently 103. I have two uncles. One married into the family; one was born into it. I cannot speak to their dietary habits, but both are farmers who work every day. They are both 81. One is very much LDS; the other I do not know.

My father, Irish Catholic, corrupted my mother at a young age. Before they met, she of the LDS persuasion, neither smoked nor drank so much as a Coca-Cola--certainly no alcohol. Ten years later she smoked her cigs and drank with the best of them. She died in her early seventies.

Anecdotal for sure, so make of it what you will.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Way cool, Ted.:thumbsup: Love to see the pics.:yes:I'm not on Fbook.

I don't have any grandchildren yet. According to my Daughters, there's lots and lots of boys available for dating but very few men anywhere in their generation for marrying. :confused2:

Face:)


Big ditto here.

Oldest daughter lucked out. She has a real good man.

On second thought, it was not so much luck as destiny. She is very family oriented. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Ted, it looks like the canoeing is still there. Depending on what part of the park you embark from you get a new canoe or an older one.

romantic-things-to-do-in-orlando-canoeing.jpg

3419942006_22aa21e788.jpg
man-canoeing-l.jpg

kayaking_at_wekeiva_springs_007-2.jpg

orlando_springspark-2.jpg
__
wekiwasprings456-1.jpg
 
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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
NPD

Reading another thread, Claire's theory on where L. Ron Hubbard went wrong, prompted this response which I am posting here: A friend once asked me what I thought was behind the observable fact that people close to Hubbard were often sacked and declared. The only explanation I had at the time was Hubbard- and scieno-centric. I thought it was because the flaws, i.e. off-Sourceness, of those people was being magnified the closer they got to source. There might be some truth in that, but I was way off the mark.

Abusers, people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, tend to abuse those closest to them. Here is Sam Vaknin, a self-described person with NPD, author of the book, Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited, describing the situation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFUuaw8Pf1M&feature=related
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Reading another thread, Claire's theory on where L. Ron Hubbard went wrong, prompted this response which I am posting here: A friend once asked me what I thought was behind the observable fact that people close to Hubbard were often sacked and declared. The only explanation I had at the time was Hubbard- and scieno-centric. I thought it was because the flaws, i.e. off-Sourceness, of those people was being magnified the closer they got to source. There might be some truth in that, but I was way off the mark.

Abusers, people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, tend to abuse those closest to them. Here is Sam Vaknin, a self-described person with NPD, author of the book, Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited, describing the situation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFUuaw8Pf1M&feature=related

Ted, I watched the video on the characteristics of abusers, it is very good. Besides LRH being a "4 point match" as they say in law classes, O.J. Simpson immediately popped into my mind as another such person.

I made the following reply to Helena Handbasket, a poster down on Claire's thread:

Nice post, Helena, with many good points. However, I think your paragraph on his failure to create "sub -heroes" needs to be tweeked a bit. He did inadvertently create lots of "sub heroes". Prime examples are John Mac Master, Yvonne Jentzsch and Otto Roos. Other earlier sub heroes were the Kemps, Ray and Pam and the Halperns, who developed the TR's not to mention Dr. Winter, who wrote the forward to his original Dianetics book, John Campbell his publisher and Volney Matheison who developed the E-Meter. There is a list of many others as well. Mary Sue Hubbard, herself, was a created sub hero.

He had a line of succession established. Mary Sue Hubbard could have run the organizations and he hand picked David Mayo to be Senior C/S International and establish his own corporation, separate from C of S, so that he could run the tech division without being corrupted by other parts of the church. In the 50's he was grooming L Ron Hubbard, Jr. (Nibs) to be his heir apparent and in the 70's he was hoping that Quentin might assume that role. Diana figured as well in his line of succession. Perhaps for several years, Ken Urquhart may have figured into his succession plans as might have Captain Bill Robertson.

At the end of his life, he was off the major communication lines of his church and the communications into him were controlled by you know who. By this time his physical and mental capacities were seriously impaired and MSH and Mayo were now taboo as far as he was concerned.

In a last gasp effort to provide some succession, he named two relative nobodies, Pat and Annie Broeker as his successors. These people were loyal to him and took care of his "household" type of activities such as his housing, his food and his personal care. They had no real talents either in "Tech" nor "admin" but they were the only ones whom he had seen in his last years so he passed on the baton to them in a last ditch effort to preserve his legacy. Of course, DM was able to take them down with ease just a short time later.

What a sad and pathetic ending for a once "larger than life" and vibrant man. All he could do at the end was promote himself to "Admiral" and sail off into the Galaxy, leaving behind two "loyal officers", who were just ordinary people with no special skills, to run his empire.

Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ted, I watched the video on the characteristics of abusers, it is very good. Besides LRH being a "4 point match" as they say in law classes, O.J. Simpson immediately popped into my mind as another such person.

I made the following reply to Helena Handbasket, a poster down on Claire's thread:

Nice post, Helena, with many good points. However, I think your paragraph on his failure to create "sub -heroes" needs to be tweeked a bit. He did inadvertently create lots of "sub heroes". Prime examples are John Mac Master, Yvonne Jentzsch and Otto Roos. Other earlier sub heroes were the Kemps, Ray and Pam and the Halperns, who developed the TR's not to mention Dr. Winter, who wrote the forward to his original Dianetics book, John Campbell his publisher and Volney Matheison who developed the E-Meter. There is a list of many others as well. Mary Sue Hubbard, herself, was a created sub hero.

He had a line of succession established. Mary Sue Hubbard could have run the organizations and he hand picked David Mayo to be Senior C/S International and establish his own corporation, separate from C of S, so that he could run the tech division without being corrupted by other parts of the church. In the 50's he was grooming L Ron Hubbard, Jr. (Nibs) to be his heir apparent and in the 70's he was hoping that Quentin might assume that role. Diana figured as well in his line of succession. Perhaps for several years, Ken Urquhart may have figured into his succession plans as might have Captain Bill Robertson.

At the end of his life, he was off the major communication lines of his church and the communications into him were controlled by you know who. By this time his physical and mental capacities were seriously impaired and MSH and Mayo were now taboo as far as he was concerned.

In a last gasp effort to provide some succession, he named two relative nobodies, Pat and Annie Broeker as his successors. These people were loyal to him and took care of his "household" type of activities such as his housing, his food and his personal care. They had no real talents either in "Tech" nor "admin" but they were the only ones whom he had seen in his last years so he passed on the baton to them in a last ditch effort to preserve his legacy. Of course, DM was able to take them down with ease just a short time later.

What a sad and pathetic ending for a once "larger than life" and vibrant man. All he could do at the end was promote himself to "Admiral" and sail off into the Galaxy, leaving behind two "loyal officers", who were just ordinary people with no special skills, to run his empire.

Lakey


Lakey, a few years ago when I discovered info on NPD, all my questions regarding Hubbard were answered. All the loose ends tied up. There is nothing, for me, left to understand. I don't even go, "How did he get like that? Did it start in his childhood?" etc. Questions that attempt to get to the underlying cause are irrelevant. It is enough for me today to know the condition, to realize its affects on the person and on those he/she contacts. That's the lesson. Understand and recognize the condition of NPD so that I do not invest my time, attention, efforts, loyalties, finances, and other resources unwisely. You might say, this is part of a personal Danger Condition handling.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
NPD

I might add that there is a bit of narcissism in each of us--not to the point of it being a full-blown disorder, but the seeds of it nevertheless. There are discernible degrees of difference between having a self-interest, a button on self-importance, narcissism, and NPD.

I mean, who in their right mind would buy into the description of OT, wish that for themselves, and invest their time, money, and energy striving in that direction in the face of Hubbard's over-the-top stories and yarn spinning?

Had "going up the Bridge" not been such a selfish activity my life and the lives of my wife and my friends would have taken a completely different direction--sooner. There were a number of opportunities to make that self-determined change out and away from Hubbard and scientology. Each time the only acceptable answer, the one with the strong, misguided, self-interests was to stick it out, see what's "on the other side of the Bridge." :omg:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Ted - Your last two posts are spot on!

I might add that there is a bit of narcissism in each of us--not to the point of it being a full-blown disorder, but the seeds of it nevertheless. There are discernible degrees of difference between having a self-interest, a button on self-importance, narcissism, and NPD.

I mean, who in their right mind would buy into the description of OT, wish that for themselves, and invest their time, money, and energy striving in that direction in the face of Hubbard's over-the-top stories and yarn spinning?

Had "going up the Bridge" not been such a selfish activity my life and the lives of my wife and my friends would have taken a completely different direction--sooner. There were a number of opportunities to make that self-determined change out and away from Hubbard and scientology. Each time the only acceptable answer, the one with the strong, misguided, self-interests was to stick it out, see what's "on the other side of the Bridge." :omg:


Ted, this post of yours which I copied above and the one just before it are spot on!!! I concur completely with your conclusions.

It is interesting that this topic which was solved here on this thread months ago, just now surfaced again on Claire's thread. Probably the best thing to do each time the topic re-arises is to just run the post containing the video along with your last two posts.

I had the impulse to give some anecdotes all over again to the new group of posters over on Claire's thread. That action is a bit narcissistic on my part as you point out. The anecdotes can be entertaining, stir up some controversy and increase the number of views and replies but really it is all for show.

The replaying of your selected video is really all that is necessary to fully handle the situation.
Lakey
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Speaking of NPD..." Yes, I see what you mean. :dieslaughing:

I could see a fortune being made off Hubbard's discarded ashes, half-eaten cheese samiches, half-smoked Kools, etc. Too bad there was no eBay at that time. What a wasted fortune in potential income. :dieslaughing:

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::coolwink::thumbsup:
 
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