The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[elwood]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm afraid I don't understand your post Winston. This video is not about all conservatives....it is about one person who, if the information is correct, I would not want in office or to have any power to influence our society because of his connections and what he seems to have supported in the past. I swallowed what whole?

Alex Jones at Prisonplanet.com. Holy crap - talk about zero credibility. Here's the other side of the story.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...te-a-mistake/2011/08/16/gIQAM2azJJ_story.html

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, well, Beethoven and Mozart did meet in their lifetimes, of course . . . . . Indeed, Mozart had a very high regard for the younger Beethoven.

One of the things that enabled a difference between their piano works was the change in construction of pianos . . . Beethoven was able to benefit form the steel famed piano and also a piano with more than five octaves and a different stringing construct than Mozart had.

Also during this time (I don't have a date) the western musical scale was re-pitched.

If you get ahold of any of the old master violins (the Strads or Guarneris) you'll see the necks have been adjusted to adjust their pitch (the neck length has been changed and a joint between the scroll and the neck of the instrument is visible).

These changes in the musical world facilitated the musical style we associate with Beethoven as compared with what Mozart was able to conceive of with the instruments he had available.

Both are my favorite composers.

Rog

Not exactly clear on what you mean by the Western scale being re-pitched. If you mean the modern A=440, that occurred in 1917. Anyhoo, whatever the tuning pitch, string instruments had and still have pegs to adjust. Strings used to be gut, ie a much less powerful sound, whereas today they are wound steel, with various cores. Also, perhaps you mean the length of the fingerboard, which has been extended since the 1700s. I have seen Stradivarius and Guarnari instruments, and even played an Amati cello. Occasionally they have been altered, but not usually, other than fingerboard and
the "rake" at which the neck is set. Perhaps that is the "pitch" to which you are referring.

Mozart would have taken advantage of the modern piano also, as Beethoven did, had he lived. There is a huge difference between a clavier and today's piano needless to say. I think Beethoven's genius also was developed beyond the imagination by his deafness. He was almost totally deaf by the age 28, when he wrote his famous "Heiligenstat Testament." "...forced to become a philosopher at such a young age." It is beyond comprehension how he wrote his greatest work never hearing a note of it. Perhaps that is why it became so incredible, because only his imagination and genius were at work unimpaired by the reality of sound. That is the true measure of his technical mastery of composition.

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Mozart did of course create music which is romantic.

Symphony 40 is an example.

Then there is his greatest area, the Piano concerto's.

He would have expanded his horizons re musical language.

Both he and Beethoven looked back towards Bach at times.

Finale of symphony 41 and Grosse fugue are the prime examples.

Its generally considered that the two great revolutions in music
in our time were created by Beethoven and Wagner.

One may consider that Mozart was a seed for this.

Would that he lived longer!

Perhaps his greatest work, the Requiem, might be considered the start of the romantic movement.

And he was just a whippersnapper then, with enormous gifts we are gratefull for and whose untimely death is one of the greatest tragedies of humankind.

You are forgetting his operas! Late Mozart is indeed a different breed of music, but I would not necessarily call it romantic. For me it is in a category of its own, which I would call sublime. His Symphonia Concertante for vln and viola is so incredible it defies description, the greatest opening of any concerto ever written. A colleague of mine insists that work is OPERA, not a concerto, and he is right. And I say sublime.

All musicians take homage in Bach. It is hard to explain, but to play Bach is to cleanse the soul. It is the foundation of western music. May seem academic to the listener, but to the player it is spiritual, forever revealing something new.

BTW, one theory is that Mozart died of kidney disease. Having had it, that would have been a tormented death. One of the late stages is going nuts, just losing the mind, and I believe Mozart had been documented as going crazy.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, well, Beethoven and Mozart did meet in their lifetimes, of course . . . . . Indeed, Mozart had a very high regard for the younger Beethoven.

One of the things that enabled a difference between their piano works was the change in construction of pianos . . . Beethoven was able to benefit form the steel famed piano and also a piano with more than five octaves and a different stringing construct than Mozart had.

Also during this time (I don't have a date) the western musical scale was re-pitched.

If you get ahold of any of the old master violins (the Strads or Guarneris) you'll see the necks have been adjusted to adjust their pitch (the neck length has been changed and a joint between the scroll and the neck of the instrument is visible).

These changes in the musical world facilitated the musical style we associate with Beethoven as compared with what Mozart was able to conceive of with the instruments he had available.

Both are my favorite composers.

Rog

Rog, as to their meeting, there was a two week window where they were both in Vienna in April, 1787, The 17 year old Beethoven was sent there specifically to study with Mozart but no advance arrangements were made. Apparently, in one of Mozart's early biographies, some people came forward claiming that they witnessed the meeting between the two men. They claimed that Mozart was very impressed when Beethoven extemporized and said to a group of people in an adjoining room, "Watch this young man, some day he will make a great 'noise' in the music world." Speculations go so far as to say that Beethoven even took a few lessons from Mozart but neither man ever mentioned such a meeting.

What puzzles me is that Beethoven lived 36 years after Mozart's death and no one ever asked him point blank if they had ever met. For Beethoven's part, he never mentioned one way or another whether such a meeting actually occured. It is very likiely the meeting took place but the scholars seem to be divided about 50-50 on that subject.

You make an excellent point regarding the construction of the piano. People might wonder how such a transformation in the piano occured between 1791 when Mozart last played and say 1805 when Beethoven was performing on a much more advanced piano. I think of the difference in American popular music as an example. Take 1945, Boogie - Woogie was the rage, swing dancing, slow ballads with distinct lyrics, etc. Twenty short years later, rock groups such as the Rolling Stones were the rage, playing on electrically amplified instruments. 15 or 20 years is enough time for enormous changes to occur in societies.

With Beethoven, we are lucky. In his early career as a composer, say 1793 to 1803, he composed a large quantity of work in the Mozart and Haydn style. In 1803 his Eroica, Symphony #3 signaled a new start for him, his second period, where he wrote many of his greatest works and took advantage of the new instruments of the time. This period lasted until about 1815 and then he entered a thrid period.
Lakey

 

[FoTi]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very sorry I posted what I did. It was a knee jerk reaction that I should have squashed. I understand fully your concern and this guy is not someone to put in a postion of power, let alone the presidency. I do not know what to think anymore; I used to be so sure of myself, but the more I find out about politicians I think they all are disasters. Please forgive me.

Okay, you're forgiven.

I tend to the conservative side. I don't like big govt. When I was a teenager in highschool, back in the 50's, it disturbed me that a person could never really own their own home because they continually had to pay taxes to the govt, on their house/property, every year, or lose it. I feel the govt has way too much power and control over people's lives and I'd like to see that reversed.

I don't think all politicians are bad. Some are better than others. Some are really rotten. I think Ron Paul is a pretty good guy. There seem to be some new people who are entering into the competition. Whoever takes over the presidency next has a hell of a mess to deal with.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Not exactly clear on what you mean by the Western scale being re-pitched. If you mean the modern A=440, that occurred in 1917. Anyhoo, whatever the tuning pitch, string instruments had and still have pegs to adjust. Strings used to be gut, ie a much less powerful sound, whereas today they are wound steel, with various cores. Also, perhaps you mean the length of the fingerboard, which has been extended since the 1700s. I have seen Stradivarius and Guarnari instruments, and even played an Amati cello. Occasionally they have been altered, but not usually, other than fingerboard and
the "rake" at which the neck is set. Perhaps that is the "pitch" to which you are referring.

Mozart would have taken advantage of the modern piano also, as Beethoven did, had he lived. There is a huge difference between a clavier and today's piano needless to say. I think Beethoven's genius also was developed beyond the imagination by his deafness. He was almost totally deaf by the age 28, when he wrote his famous "Heiligenstat Testament." "...forced to become a philosopher at such a young age." It is beyond comprehension how he wrote his greatest work never hearing a note of it. Perhaps that is why it became so incredible, because only his imagination and genius were at work unimpaired by the reality of sound. That is the true measure of his technical mastery of composition.

I am responding to both Terril and Winston with this post.

As Winston points out to Terril, Terril did not mention Mozart's operas. Mozart wrote 22 operas in a lifetime which lasted 35 years and 10 months. An entire opera only counts a 1 piece in the Kochel catalogue of his works. He wrote 22 operas and 604 other works for a total of 626 works in the Kochel catalog. All this in about 29 years of composition if you figure he started composing at age 6. Considering the quality and diversity of his works, his production was unprecented considering his short life!

His operas are the only ones from the 18th century which are still played regularly with the possible exception of Gluck's Orfeo and Euridice.

I agree with Winston's comments on Beethoven's deafness. To me, this deafness may have been psychosomatic or self induced. There was no other example of deafness in his family and as a young man his hearing and pitch were perfect. Its possible he somehow feared deafness and unknowingly created it himself. I am just guessing and have no special info whatever on this. It is a long shot but I feel it is a definite possibility.
Lakey

 

[FoTi]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

How did Bethoven go deaf?

http://www.sjsu.edu/beethoven/about_beethoven/faq.html

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You are forgetting his operas! Late Mozart is indeed a different breed of music, but I would not necessarily call it romantic. For me it is in a category of its own, which I would call sublime. His Symphonia Concertante for vln and viola is so incredible it defies description, the greatest opening of any concerto ever written. A colleague of mine insists that work is OPERA, not a concerto, and he is right. And I say sublime.

All musicians take homage in Bach. It is hard to explain, but to play Bach is to cleanse the soul. It is the foundation of western music. May seem academic to the listener, but to the player it is spiritual, forever revealing something new.

BTW, one theory is that Mozart died of kidney disease. Having had it, that would have been a tormented death. One of the late stages is going nuts, just losing the mind, and I believe Mozart had been documented as going crazy.

Winston,

Absolutely loving the stuff you’re putting up here re: Mozart et al!

Bach stirs my soul. My mother was a church pipe organist.

Bach + Pipe Organ = Heaven.

When I was in High School and College I sang in Madrigal and Advanced Choir.

For me, Handel + Voice = Heaven. Handel stirred my soul, too.

My late brother was a Church Soloist and sang Barbershop.

My Sister is a Piano Teacher and High School Choir Director

So many other composers have stirred my soul, as well…from Gregorian and Baroque to Romantic and Contemporary.

Music is Majesty. Music is Grace. Music expresses Life’s Essence.

To play well, to sing well is a magical moment of mastery of mind, body and soul.

To compose like Bach, Handel, Mozart and Beethoven is more than mastery, it is purity of Heart and whatever their life’s story, as long as folks like you bring forward their transcendent message, folks like me will listen, dream, weep and be uplifted.

Face

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Not exactly clear on what you mean by the Western scale being re-pitched. If you mean the modern A=440, that occurred in 1917. Anyhoo, whatever the tuning pitch, string instruments had and still have pegs to adjust. Strings used to be gut, ie a much less powerful sound, whereas today they are wound steel, with various cores. Also, perhaps you mean the length of the fingerboard, which has been extended since the 1700s. I have seen Stradivarius and Guarnari instruments, and even played an Amati cello. Occasionally they have been altered, but not usually, other than fingerboard and
the "rake" at which the neck is set. Perhaps that is the "pitch" to which you are referring.

Mozart would have taken advantage of the modern piano also, as Beethoven did, had he lived. There is a huge difference between a clavier and today's piano needless to say. I think Beethoven's genius also was developed beyond the imagination by his deafness. He was almost totally deaf by the age 28, when he wrote his famous "Heiligenstat Testament." "...forced to become a philosopher at such a young age." It is beyond comprehension how he wrote his greatest work never hearing a note of it. Perhaps that is why it became so incredible, because only his imagination and genius were at work unimpaired by the reality of sound. That is the true measure of his technical mastery of composition.

Yes, that's what I'm referring to, the old instruments having their necks and finger boards extended.

While I've not played the "oldies but goodies" I did see and examine some. This after I was told of the adaptions.

Not being around at the time of the change , I can only relate what I was told by a violin maker/repairer what had happened and why.

R

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Foti, thank you. Yes, when you own your home after X years of paying the mortgage, you continue to rent from the county. The fed govt is forbidden to tax property by the Constitution I believe, but the states have no compunction about that!! In some places, like Fairfax, VA, that tax amounts to $400 a month and more, sometimes much more.

AND it was the reason Secretariat only raced for 3 years, but in his case it was the federal inheritance tax. To me, loving Secretariat, that was one of the biggest crimes of the US Gubmint. The rate was a whopppppping 70%, so when Christopher Chenery died they had to come up with $6 mil or lose everything. Penny did not even have a second thought about it, just obediently raised the money by renting out Secretariat's, uh, hmm, phallus, um, long dong, um, hmm uh. Originally he was to have raced a 4th year, but the "renters" were nervous about injury so off to Claiborne Farm they sent him. He perhaps could have raced into his 6th or more year, breaking all imaginable records for all time. But no. The pigs in Washington had to be fed.

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, early early Mozart was most likely Leopold Mozart. That guy saw a gold mine in his little prodigy and pawned off his own stuff as Wolfie's. So who knows when Wolfie had enough and exerted his independence. Genius knows no bounds though, and all great composers had prodigious outputs. Unlike today when we are lucky to get 10 four minute songs from our "Idols."

Funny story about Mahler: he thought that writing a 9th symphony was the way to certain death, as Beethoven, Dvorak, Schubert, Bruckner and others died after their 9th. SO he called his 9th symphony the 10th, but it didn't work. He died . I think he forgot that by the time you write nine, you are an old man. This obviously does not apply to Mozart or Haydn, but those symphonies were more simple. Haydn wrote them as a job for his benefactors. Symphonies are just one measure. To many, Beethoven means piano--32 sonatas, 5 concertos, and dozens of great chamber works with piano. And there are 16 miraculous string quartets; sublime comes to mind with late Beethoven.
Poor first violins in quartets have to play concertos every concert, and Beethoven is the standard there.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, early early Mozart was most likely Leopold Mozart. That guy saw a gold mine in his little prodigy and pawned off his own stuff as Wolfie's. So who knows when Wolfie had enough and exerted his independence. Genius knows no bounds though, and all great composers had prodigious outputs. Unlike today when we are lucky to get 10 four minute songs from our "Idols."

Funny story about Mahler: he thought that writing a 9th symphony was the way to certain death, as Beethoven, Dvorak, Schubert, Bruckner and others died after their 9th. SO he called his 9th symphony the 10th, but it didn't work. He died . I think he forgot that by the time you write nine, you are an old man. This obviously does not apply to Mozart or Haydn, but those symphonies were more simple. Haydn wrote them as a job for his benefactors. Symphonies are just one measure. To many, Beethoven means piano--32 sonatas, 5 concertos, and dozens of great chamber works with piano. And there are 16 miraculous string quartets; sublime comes to mind with late Beethoven.
Poor first violins in quartets have to play concertos every concert, and Beethoven is the standard there.

Very nice Winston! I concur with all you say. You know, at the Salzburg orchestra in the mid 1770's the court orchestra had a star studded cast. The Kapelmeister, or head conductor, was Michael Haydn, Franz Joseph's younger brother. Leopold Mozart was vice Kapelmeister and young Wolfgang was Concert Master, who is usually the lead violinist who shakes hands with the conductor after the performance. Salzburg was a minor sort of provincial outpost at the time, probably something akin to Peoria, Illinois in today's world. The Archbishop did not even care that much for music.

Its really nice to get a discussion going on classical music on the Apollo '73 thread. I've tried it a few times and there was little interest, mainly Roger, Terril, FoTi and Leon made a few comments. Winston, I think your participation is what is stiring up the added interest.

We haven't talked about your man, J.S. Bach. What a guy, he fathered 20 children, several of whom were near genius musicians and his music stands at the apex of music as some of the finest pieces ever writeen.
Lakey

 

[FoTi]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Foti, thank you. Yes, when you own your home after X years of paying the mortgage, you continue to rent from the county. The fed govt is forbidden to tax property by the Constitution I believe, but the states have no compunction about that!! In some places, like Fairfax, VA, that tax amounts to $400 a month and more, sometimes much more.

AND it was the reason Secretariat only raced for 3 years, but in his case it was the federal inheritance tax. To me, loving Secretariat, that was one of the biggest crimes of the US Gubmint. The rate was a whopppppping 70%, so when Christopher Chenery died they had to come up with $6 mil or lose everything. Penny did not even have a second thought about it, just obediently raised the money by renting out Secretariat's, uh, hmm, phallus, um, long dong, um, hmm uh. Originally he was to have raced a 4th year, but the "renters" were nervous about injury so off to Claiborne Farm they sent him. He perhaps could have raced into his 6th or more year, breaking all imaginable records for all time. But no. The pigs in Washington had to be fed.

I look back at the late 30's and early 40's, around the time I was born and compare those days to how life is today. Back then, before I was born (my parents were married for 6 years before I was born), my mother was a secretary and my father was going to chiropractic college. My mother worked and supported both of them, put my father through school (there were no student loans back then), bought a house in the Hollywood hills, bought a new Chevy and they ate out in restaurants most of the time. This was all done on a secretary's salary. When my father graduated, I was born (the bill for doctor and hospital was only $50....1/3 of a monthly salary that my mother made as a secretary), my mother became a housewife and a mother and my father started practicing. He had one client and with that one client he made enough money (which he could use himself because they didn't have taxes and big govt like we have today) to start his own business, which grew and supported the family and then he started another co, and then another and then another. By the time I was 13, taxation was growing, govt was getting bigger and they wanted a piece of his pie or else. My parents then had to sell their home to cover the new taxes. His businesses continued to flourish and they shortly bought another, smaller home. By the time I graduated from high school, the govt....FDA, set out to squash him. He spent a lot of money in legal fees, trying to fight back, but soon realized that they were bigger than he was and he had to give up. When he saw the unbeatable corruption in the govt, he became despondent, didn't want to work any longer, sold his business and retired and was never the same again. Govt power and control broke his spirit. Over time he assumed the viewpoint that the govt was right and he was wrong. They overwhelmed him and he never recovered.

My uncle, my father's brother, back in those days, went to USC and got his degree in architecture and eventually became VP of Welton and Beckett, in charge of designing Hilton Hotels all over the world, among other things. He worked and put himself through school. His family did not have money. He also married, bought a house, had a wife and two kids and supported them while he was finishing up school and getting his license. There were no student loans back then. USC is a private school and is outrageously expensive today.

None of the above is even remotely possible today.

There was no medical insurance back then....people were able to keep the money they made and pay their own doctors. And no one was forced by law into any kind of vaccines, medications or medical treatment that they didn't chose of their own accord.

Just think of all the money the govt has sucked out of each one of you over the years so that they could stuff their own pockets and spend your hard earned money the way they wanted to and not necessarilly the way you wanted them to. They have power and control over you and what can you do about it?

These are just a few of the reasons I don't like big govt.

I would love to again see the day when people could start their own business or service and have free trade without govt interference and being taxed out of existence.....where young people could go to college without graduating under the burden of huge student loans that take forever to pay off, while some never can and are driven into financial ruin.

The govt has outgrown the people it was supposed to serve and has turned into a monster and has it's claws into every one of us.....and we're all wondering what is going to happen now and will we survive this monstrosity?

It's become very ugly and no one seems to know how to kill off the monster without the monster crashing down on them and maybe killing them too.

Interesting problem, no?

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very nice Winston! I concur with all you say. You know, at the Salzburg orchestra in the mid 1770's the court orchestra had a star studded cast. The Kapelmeister, or head conductor, was Michael Haydn, Franz Joseph's younger brother. Leopold Mozart was vice Kapelmeister and young Wolfgang was Concert Master, who is usually the lead violinist who shakes hands with the conductor after the performance. Salzburg was a minor sort of provincial outpost at the time, probably something akin to Peoria, Illinois in today's world. The Archbishop did not even care that much for music.

Its really nice to get a discussion going on classical music on the Apollo '73 thread. I've tried it a few times and there was little interest, mainly Roger, Terril, FoTi and Leon made a few comments. Winston, I think your participation is what is stiring up the added interest.

We haven't talked about your man, J.S. Bach. What a guy, he fathered 20 children, several of whom were near genius musicians and his music stands at the apex of music as some of the finest pieces ever writeen.
Lakey

Well, I pretty much grew up with music around me. My brother was a pianist (first) and a clarinetist and bassoonist. He had friends over all the time to play woodwind quintets and to accompany some very good violinists, so I was immersed in it. He unfortunately got messed up in drugs in the late 60s and died in 1997. I went on to play pro cello after a detour through the cult. I have recently gotten in touch with many of his friends through FaceBook, and they all are devastated at his demise. For me it is sad, but it has now been a long time ago.

Don't forget JS Bach's 21st child, PDQ.

Do you or any of the other contributors play an instrument? (RogerB seems to know quite a bit and I wondered if he is a violinist) A few people here have heard me play via Zinjifar who would host my mpgs. I could email stuff to you if you like.

Right now, I am preparing for an audition; Beethoven Sym 2 (???), Mendelssohn Scherzo to Midsummer's Night Dream, Debussy La Mer, Brahms Sym 2, slow mvt, and the solos from his 2nd piano concerto are on the list. It is for assistant principal cello.
I cannot figure why they want Beeth #2, I can sight read that. I thought they made a mistake and meant #5, but they said no. Strange. Also they want a Bach prelude from one of the suites and another movement, player's choice. I will play prelude to the 4th Suite and Gavotte from the 6th suite. Asking for Bach is quite unusual also, as that would tell you nothing about whether a player could play in a group. So we shall see. I have memorized all the music now, so it is a pain waiting for Aug 27 to get here.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, I pretty much grew up with music around me. My brother was a pianist (first) and a clarinetist and bassoonist. He had friends over all the time to play woodwind quintets and to accompany some very good violinists, so I was immersed in it. He unfortunately got messed up in drugs in the late 60s and died in 1997. I went on to play pro cello after a detour through the cult. I have recently gotten in touch with many of his friends through FaceBook, and they all are devastated at his demise. For me it is sad, but it has now been a long time ago.

Don't forget JS Bach's 21st child, PDQ.

Do you or any of the other contributors play an instrument? (RogerB seems to know quite a bit and I wondered if he is a violinist) A few people here have heard me play via Zinjifar who would host my mpgs. I could email stuff to you if you like.

Right now, I am preparing for an audition; Beethoven Sym 2 (???), Mendelssohn Scherzo to Midsummer's Night Dream, Debussy La Mer, Brahms Sym 2, slow mvt, and the solos from his 2nd piano concerto are on the list. It is for assistant principal cello.
I cannot figure why they want Beeth #2, I can sight read that. I thought they made a mistake and meant #5, but they said no. Strange. Also they want a Bach prelude from one of the suites and another movement, player's choice. I will play prelude to the 4th Suite and Gavotte from the 6th suite. Asking for Bach is quite unusual also, as that would tell you nothing about whether a player could play in a group. So we shall see. I have memorized all the music now, so it is a pain waiting for Aug 27 to get here.

I took piano lessons from ages 8 to 11 and then played French Horn in the Jr High School orchestra and also for one year in the Senior High School Orchestra. A lot of what I learned about music was from reading the record jackets in the 60's and 70's. My earliest favorite classical piece was the William Tell Overture (of Lone Ranger fame) by Rossini. That was at about age 17. At 18, my two favorite composers were Beethoven and Tschaikowski and my favorite pieces were Beethoven's 5th symphony and Tschaikowky's 1812 Overture.

My first Mozart recording was purchased at age 19 when I was at U.C.L.A. I bought a beat up used copy of Mozart's 35th Symphony, the "Haffner". After that it was all over. I dropped my interests in the other composers and was compelled to read, hear and learn everything I could about Mozart.

Later I developed a strong recollection of a life in Austria where I became personally acquainted with Mozart. I met him in Salzburg in 1776 while taking music lessons from his Father. We reconnected again in early 1789 in Vienna when I was a member of the musical troupe headed by Emmanuel Shikaneder. I was a bass singer and part time composer and was present at his house rehearsing his Requiem Mass the day he died. I believe that I promised him that I would promote his music to the world as long as I was able to do so and that is where this manic interest in him seems to come from.

I admire you greatly because you are actually heavily involved with classical music and are really creating it. I'm at a much lower level, just writing about it and playing recordings. You have my deepest admiration and respect for what you are doing.

Besides your skill and devotion to performing music, you are also very knowledgeable about its roots, its history and its individual composers. Also your taste in composers and music in general is of a very high level. I salute you!
Lakey

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You are forgetting his operas! Late Mozart is indeed a different breed of music, but I would not necessarily call it romantic. For me it is in a category of its own, which I would call sublime. His Symphonia Concertante for vln and viola is so incredible it defies description, the greatest opening of any concerto ever written. A colleague of mine insists that work is OPERA, not a concerto, and he is right. And I say sublime.

All musicians take homage in Bach. It is hard to explain, but to play Bach is to cleanse the soul. It is the foundation of western music. May seem academic to the listener, but to the player it is spiritual, forever revealing something new.

BTW, one theory is that Mozart died of kidney disease. Having had it, that would have been a tormented death. One of the late stages is going nuts, just losing the mind, and I believe Mozart had been documented as going crazy.

I'm sadly somewhat blind to opera, despite much efforts. But love requiems masses etc.

For vocal music I turn towards Indian music which I played at one time, and other oriental traditional music especially Java.

Not sure if I even know the symphonie Concertante! Will have
to listen.

Bach was not the foundation of western music. Just perhaps its greatest practitioner. He wasn't even a revolutionary. In his day his music was considered old fashioned.

Its often considered that Tchaikowsky was the greatest melodist,
and perhaps he composed some of the greatest. Bach, though near that level, composed many more.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, early early Mozart was most likely Leopold Mozart. That guy saw a gold mine in his little prodigy and pawned off his own stuff as Wolfie's. So who knows when Wolfie had enough and exerted his independence. Genius knows no bounds though, and all great composers had prodigious outputs. Unlike today when we are lucky to get 10 four minute songs from our "Idols."

Funny story about Mahler: he thought that writing a 9th symphony was the way to certain death, as Beethoven, Dvorak, Schubert, Bruckner and others died after their 9th. SO he called his 9th symphony the 10th, but it didn't work. He died . I think he forgot that by the time you write nine, you are an old man. This obviously does not apply to Mozart or Haydn, but those symphonies were more simple. Haydn wrote them as a job for his benefactors. Symphonies are just one measure. To many, Beethoven means piano--32 sonatas, 5 concertos, and dozens of great chamber works with piano. And there are 16 miraculous string quartets; sublime comes to mind with late Beethoven.
Poor first violins in quartets have to play concertos every concert, and Beethoven is the standard there.

Just bought my first CD of Havergal Brian, symphonies 25 and 26.
[Naxos for around$10] 32 symphonies in all. His first The "Gothic" needs more perfomers than Mahler's 8th. I think Im prefer the snippets I've heard of his first.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm sadly somewhat blind to opera, despite much efforts. But love requiems masses etc.

For vocal music I turn towards Indian music which I played at one time, and other oriental traditional music especially Java.

Not sure if I even know the symphonie Concertante! Will have
to listen.

Bach was not the foundation of western music. Just perhaps its greatest practitioner. He wasn't even a revolutionary. In his day his music was considered old fashioned.

Its often considered that Tchaikowsky was the greatest melodist,
and perhaps he composed some of the greatest. Bach, though near that level, composed many more.

Opera requires, I think, much more work - first of all there is actually understanding what it is they are singing - a casual listener will have a very hard time even hearing the words that a soprano is enunciating.

IMHO (and its not often I say that) the best way to get the most out of opera is to get tickets to a big production produced by some of the greater opera companies. Book it well in advance.

Buy a good CD of the opera that also has the score and preferably a translation too.

Follow the CD with the score and the translation so you know what is going on and can start to discern if the singers are actually getting it right in terms of the emotions.

Then go see it. If you pick a great opera the result can pay off so well, you would be surprised.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, I pretty much grew up with music around me. My brother was a pianist (first) and a clarinetist and bassoonist. He had friends over all the time to play woodwind quintets and to accompany some very good violinists, so I was immersed in it. He unfortunately got messed up in drugs in the late 60s and died in 1997. I went on to play pro cello after a detour through the cult. I have recently gotten in touch with many of his friends through FaceBook, and they all are devastated at his demise. For me it is sad, but it has now been a long time ago.

Don't forget JS Bach's 21st child, PDQ.

Do you or any of the other contributors play an instrument? (RogerB seems to know quite a bit and I wondered if he is a violinist) A few people here have heard me play via Zinjifar who would host my mpgs. I could email stuff to you if you like.

Right now, I am preparing for an audition; Beethoven Sym 2 (???), Mendelssohn Scherzo to Midsummer's Night Dream, Debussy La Mer, Brahms Sym 2, slow mvt, and the solos from his 2nd piano concerto are on the list. It is for assistant principal cello.
I cannot figure why they want Beeth #2, I can sight read that. I thought they made a mistake and meant #5, but they said no. Strange. Also they want a Bach prelude from one of the suites and another movement, player's choice. I will play prelude to the 4th Suite and Gavotte from the 6th suite. Asking for Bach is quite unusual also, as that would tell you nothing about whether a player could play in a group. So we shall see. I have memorized all the music now, so it is a pain waiting for Aug 27 to get here.

Yes, Winston, I did study violin for a few years.

In 1957 I was written up as "The Bohemian Surfer" in the Sydney Daily Telegraph ( a second string rag, last heard out of business). Such was their astonishment that a sportsman would also be into something like playing the violin!!!

Anyhow, several things coalesced to conspire to having me put the fiddle aside, sadly to never return.

I developed rather large, well muscled shoulders (made it uncomfortable to contort around the instrument) . . . see my period pic in my profile album of me at the time as an athlete, and spending many hours a day in the water meant my finger tips didn't develop the callouses and toughness for fingering the strings.

Loving the music though I did, what it took to play it was more than I was at that time willing to devote to it as I was intent on being a champion athlete . . . also $cn began to eat up my $$$s and time.

I always thought I'd get back to it. That's why I haunted the violin shops in London, and Basel . . . . but it has not been so.

None the less, the love of the stringed instruments is still there.

I went to a live concert recently of of a string quintet. An intimate affair in the local Seventh Day Adventist Church.

One of the cellos seemed to me to have a very unusual configuration. It was way differently proportioned to the other cellos in the group.

It fascinated me. I went up to the player after the concert to discuss his instrument. It turned out it was a replica of a Strad

Wow! fascinating to chat about and get the nuances of proportions and comportment of this cello as compared to the other instruments.

I just find it fascinating . . . . Virginia was amazed I spotted the difference from the audience.:wink2:

Though I'm happy with my life and what I've been, done, had . . . not still playing the violin is one of my less than ideal scenarios.

Actually, a more favorite instrument to me is the viola . . . I just love its tonal qualities. Great shame a lot more solo piece have not been written for it. I place the cello as joint second favorite with the violin.

I read recently that some musical wonks, having research the tonal ranges of the stringed instruments, actually expanded the number of instruments . . . I think, from memory it's either 5 or 6.

These folks then commissioned the making of the extra instruments (one is set between the viola and the cello). These instruments are in a museum in New Jersey. They have been very recently used in a concert.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of this development . . . maybe there is a huge opportunity here for some folks to do some special arrangements for such an array of instruments . . . .

Rog

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm sadly somewhat blind to opera, despite much efforts. But love requiems masses etc.

For vocal music I turn towards Indian music which I played at one time, and other oriental traditional music especially Java.

Not sure if I even know the symphonie Concertante! Will have
to listen.

Bach was not the foundation of western music. Just perhaps its greatest practitioner. He wasn't even a revolutionary. In his day his music was considered old fashioned.

Its often considered that Tchaikowsky was the greatest melodist,
and perhaps he composed some of the greatest. Bach, though near that level, composed many more.

Yes, technically Bach may not be the foundation of western music, but I have yet to meet a professional musician who does not revere Bach as much as I do. To play that stuff is downright a spiritual experience, preferably with no audience, just the player and the notes. I am aware he was considered old-fashioned in his own day. but if you look at the crap that was being composed then you would chalk it up to deluded dunces with that opinion.

Just bought my first CD of Havergal Brian, symphonies 25 and 26.
[Naxos for around$10] 32 symphonies in all. His first The "Gothic" needs more perfomers than Mahler's 8th. I think Im prefer the snippets I've heard of his first.

Just because someone wrote a gazillion symphonies does not make them worth listening to. I could do that, but, being a gentleman, I won't. Mahler's 8th is seldom performed because the cost is prohibitive. Union scale for 800 musicians, besides the gargantuan venue needed, breaks the bank. Max Reger wrote an absolutely astounding number of compositions, most just curiosities now of interest only to advanced students looking for challenging stuff. They are difficult, but boring as hell.

I always found it wild that Mahler would have a huge orchestra onstage and have extended sections of either a solo flute or just a few instruments in a chamber music setting, while everyone else just sits. He had no fear of cutting down the orchestra. While a fantastic composer, he was first a conductor very at home with large orchestra.

Winnie