CarmeloOrchards
Crusader
Re: The old days
speaking of education, does anyone want to help me with my cunilinguistics homework?
speaking of education, does anyone want to help me with my cunilinguistics homework?
The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But
- Thread starter lkwdblds
- Start date
- Status
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Looks to me, Rog, like a few people around the board here still may have a bit of 'bpc' ... errrh ..., excuse me, ... 'unresolved personal upset' ... on the word 'process' despite their insistence on being 'past all that' and claims to having 'moved on in their lives'.
Perhaps a habit of routinely resorting to a good dictionary might help a few of them resolve the misconceptions which seem to plague them with regard to remarks made by others on the board?
Mark A. Baker
As you would already know Mark it wasn't so much the words that Roger used that I responded to ... it was the condescending superior attitude.
In the real world I would probably have just discreetly stuck my foot out and tripped him over ... just to see him fall in a messy undignified pile.
In the real world I would probably have just discreetly stuck my foot out and tripped him over ... just to see him fall in a messy undignified pile.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
And what sort of attitude is it that seeks out the apparency of a condescending superior attitude in others for the opportunity such present for public excoriation?
Matthew 7:3
It may be a legitimate complaint when one is offended by intentionally abusive language or direct personal abuse being used on a message board, however complaints based on one's own interpretation of another's emotional tone or implicit subtext is definitely a stretch. That is especially true as that the appearance of tone is often solely in the eye of the offended reader.
Rather than an excessive focus on implied incidentals of emotional sub-text it makes more sense to give thought to the ideas being expressed. I consider this to be true of all communications generally, but it is especially true of a medium such as the internet where individual posts are so easily misunderstood in part due to the lack of overt physical & emotional cues.
Mark A. Baker
And what sort of attitude is it that seeks out the apparency of a condescending superior attitude in others for the opportunity such present for public excoriation?
Matthew 7:3
It may be a legitimate complaint when one is offended by intentionally abusive language or direct personal abuse being used on a message board, however complaints based on one's own interpretation of another's emotional tone or implicit subtext is definitely a stretch. That is especially true as that the appearance of tone is often solely in the eye of the offended reader.
Rather than an excessive focus on implied incidentals of emotional sub-text it makes more sense to give thought to the ideas being expressed. I consider this to be true of all communications generally, but it is especially true of a medium such as the internet where individual posts are so easily misunderstood in part due to the lack of overt physical & emotional cues.
Mark A. Baker
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
You're probably right, but can I still stick my foot out now and again?
I like doing that.
And what sort of attitude is it that seeks out the apparency of a condescending superior attitude in others for the opportunity such present for public excoriation?
Matthew 7:3
It may be a legitimate complaint when one is offended by intentionally abusive language or direct personal abuse being used on a message board, however complaints based on one's own interpretation of another's emotional tone or implicit subtext is definitely a stretch. That is especially true as that the appearance of tone is often solely in the eye of the offended reader.
Rather than an excessive focus on implied incidentals of emotional sub-text it makes more sense to give thought to the ideas being expressed. I consider this to be true of all communications generally, but it is especially true of a medium such as the internet where individual posts are so easily misunderstood in part due to the lack of overt physical & emotional cues.
Mark A. Baker
You're probably right, but can I still stick my foot out now and again?
I like doing that.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWBvKAN8CBs
Mark A. Baker
You're probably right, but can I still stick my foot out now and again?
I like doing that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWBvKAN8CBs
Mark A. Baker
FoTi
Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
For Trouble's pleasure......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHWEZ_IjcSk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSEYXWmEse8&feature=related
For Trouble's pleasure......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHWEZ_IjcSk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSEYXWmEse8&feature=related
Last edited:
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
FoTi
Crusader
Last edited:
RogerB
Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Some of folks on ESMB emailed/PMed me about my trip to Iceland since I made it known I’d gone and returned.
Coincidentally, world and political events coincide with my observations of Iceland while there, so this morning I thought I might post on the issues . . . and where better than among this happy gang on board the Apollo.
This was sparked to action by the article linked here on the WSJ this morning concerning:
Be good if democracy worked as well here in the US, the UK, and even in Oz
We might end up with some honest pollies!!
More on the above later.
Next in my morning reading I collide with this article concerning: “25 Signs That The Financial World Is About To Hit The Big Red Panic Button” . . . It speaks to what Iceland successfully handled, because they have honest democracy that enabled the Icelandic peoples to prevent themselves being shafted my the money-power-boyz who tried to stick the citizens with paying the money-power-boyz’s debt . . . which the Icelandic ex-PM is on trial in part for because he went along with the “boyz” and banksters trying to make the people cough up to pay for what the boyz did!
America, Europe, the UK et al, all screwed up. They tried to solve the debt problem by creating more debt and by also ripping of the good citizenry . . . you American’s might well remember the government bailing out the big banksters with your money . . . with the result the banksters paid themselves $$billions in bonuses . . . but nothing is solved. They’re still going down the tubes . . . but with your $$billions in their pockets as bonuses for the job they did.
Article here: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...orld-is-about-to-hit-the-big-red-panic-button
And if you think I or the author above are kidding about things being grim . . . get a load of this article concerning the secret report advice by Goldman Sax to its clients, headed:
Remember, these are the SOB’s that screwed Greece with deceitful or incompetent advice, and among the guys who shafted the American taxpayer and who tried and nearly successfully screw the Icelanders.
But here’s my story on Iceland. Mate here on ESMB emailed me when he heard about my trip. He’s always full of good advice, and his email had a link I recommend you go to.
This post contains his email and my reply.
______________________________________________
My Reply yesterday, before I saw this morning’s note on the Ex-Iceland PM in court:
Some of folks on ESMB emailed/PMed me about my trip to Iceland since I made it known I’d gone and returned.
Coincidentally, world and political events coincide with my observations of Iceland while there, so this morning I thought I might post on the issues . . . and where better than among this happy gang on board the Apollo.
This was sparked to action by the article linked here on the WSJ this morning concerning:
Here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...2151201647350.html?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_world
Be good if democracy worked as well here in the US, the UK, and even in Oz
We might end up with some honest pollies!!More on the above later.
Next in my morning reading I collide with this article concerning: “25 Signs That The Financial World Is About To Hit The Big Red Panic Button” . . . It speaks to what Iceland successfully handled, because they have honest democracy that enabled the Icelandic peoples to prevent themselves being shafted my the money-power-boyz who tried to stick the citizens with paying the money-power-boyz’s debt . . . which the Icelandic ex-PM is on trial in part for because he went along with the “boyz” and banksters trying to make the people cough up to pay for what the boyz did!
America, Europe, the UK et al, all screwed up. They tried to solve the debt problem by creating more debt and by also ripping of the good citizenry . . . you American’s might well remember the government bailing out the big banksters with your money . . . with the result the banksters paid themselves $$billions in bonuses . . . but nothing is solved. They’re still going down the tubes . . . but with your $$billions in their pockets as bonuses for the job they did.
Article here: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...orld-is-about-to-hit-the-big-red-panic-button
And if you think I or the author above are kidding about things being grim . . . get a load of this article concerning the secret report advice by Goldman Sax to its clients, headed:
Remember, these are the SOB’s that screwed Greece with deceitful or incompetent advice, and among the guys who shafted the American taxpayer and who tried and nearly successfully screw the Icelanders.
But here’s my story on Iceland. Mate here on ESMB emailed me when he heard about my trip. He’s always full of good advice, and his email had a link I recommend you go to.
This post contains his email and my reply.
______________________________________________
My Reply yesterday, before I saw this morning’s note on the Ex-Iceland PM in court:
Nice article . . . contains some error though. Iceland is and never was a member of the EEC. I just checked this to be sure on Wikipedia.
Also, this statement: “In 2003 Iceland’s debt was equal to 200 times its GNP, but in 2007, it was 900 percent. “ is incorrect. A more correct statement is that the amount of money invested in Iceland’s banks by foreigners seeking the high yields offered equaled %%% . . . . also, very sloppy writing “200 times” does not mean 200% . . . that would be 22,000% . . . 900% means 9 times.
I well remember the brouhaha over the referendum and the Icelanders’ refusal to pay the debts incurred by stupid bankers and dumb investors. Those debts had nothing to do with the Icelandic people and were not theirs. I applauded the rebellion then.
All this was part of the reason we went there . . . though V has had it on her mind to visit (for whatever reason
Well it is an eye-opener. 100% literacy . . . and that helps them think and make sound decisions.They all speak English as well . . . and very well.
They are a wonderfully friendly culture, and very competent at everything they take on. It is quite amazing to see. They are living on something like near half a dozen live volcanoes, the island is factually splitting apart as it is on the mid-Atlantic rift system from which it grew, and it suffers in the order of 30+ earthquakes a day . . . all small and hardly recognizable . . . but the place is seismically very active!
We visited the rift . . . quite remarkable . . . you actually see the split of the planet between the Euro and North American tectonic plates!
So many things impressed me. Imagine the responsibility level, care and coordinated thinking required to provide the resources, equipment and training such that every citizen is trained on how to a) conduct sea rescue and helicopter rescue and b) to be rescued at sea and by helicopter. They have a special sea-going training vessel for this.
There are reasons why this type of forward planning for disaster response when needed is prudent . . . things like the glacier V and I climbed and walk on sits atop a volcano that is “overdue to blow” . . . and when it does, it’ll make Mt St. Helens mud-flood look like a bath tub draining.
When you compare Iceland’s forward planning and societal preparedness . . . and their capacity to respond to that of, for example, the local authorities and US government’s response to Hurricane Katrina and the flooding of New Orleans, etc., etc., you’ve got to respect these people. You might remember reading over the years of the many seismic events, glacial floods, volcano blow ups etc., they continue to handle with no drama whatsoever!
Their society is an exemplar of good and sensible application of advanced tech (much developed by them) to harness their environment. It’s way cool!
The take-away message for me was that the Icelanders are a wonderfully responsible, productive, competent people who work together for the common good and who respect each other and are very friendly . . . V and I witnessed some remarkable expressions of this while there. (Had the best restaurant experience there I’ve had anywhere! And I’ve been around
They also have a real and full sense of who they are and where they came from as they carry forward as part of their education their folk tales and history as an integral part of their education.
Big surprise to me was that “Westminster is not the Mother of Parliaments” . . . . . noooo . . . Iceland started its parliament in around 900 and formalized it in 930 when its executive and judicial branches of government were written in its Codex.
I suppose one of the redeeming features of the place is that, with a population of only 318,000, who till the advent of jet travel, were all relatively stuck on the island to live together and had get along. So the folks all became mutually supporting of each other.
So, I’d say, democracy in Iceland was more advanced and truer in 900 than anywhere else on the planet before or since including the vaunted democracy of ancient Greece. And as we saw in their handling of the financial catastrophe, theirs is a better, more workable, truer democracy than any we are seeing on the planet today.
Though, it is true, they failed to regulate or supervise their banks to the degree needed in a modern system to prevent greed and mismanagement from harming the innocent and stupid.
Rog
PS: On a note to clarify Iceland’s status relating to the EEC, they are a member of an “affiliate” organization along with Liechtenstein, Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland (The European Free Trade Association [EFTA]) see wiki. These countries are not members of the EEC.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
The key phrase in your tome (emphasis added) ...
For a comparison the burrough of staten island, the smallest in new york, is half again as large as all of iceland. The city of santa ana in california (11th largest in the state) is of comparable population size. And the state of wyoming, the least populous in the united states in nearly twice as large as the whole of iceland.
I'm no fan of democracy but small groups are arguably easier to reason with, coordinate, or manage. Human populations don't respond well to increases in scale.
Mark A. Baker
Some of folks on ESMB emailed/PMed me about my trip to Iceland since I made it known I’d gone and returned.
Coincidentally, world and political events coincide with my observations of Iceland while there, so this morning I thought I might post on the issues . . . and where better than among this happy gang on board the Apollo.
This was sparked to action by the article linked here on the WSJ this morning concerning:
Here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...2151201647350.html?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_world
Be good if democracy worked as well here in the US, the UK, and even in Oz
The key phrase in your tome (emphasis added) ...
For a comparison the burrough of staten island, the smallest in new york, is half again as large as all of iceland. The city of santa ana in california (11th largest in the state) is of comparable population size. And the state of wyoming, the least populous in the united states in nearly twice as large as the whole of iceland.
I'm no fan of democracy but small groups are arguably easier to reason with, coordinate, or manage. Human populations don't respond well to increases in scale.
Mark A. Baker
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Roger could you expand on how ‘Iceland’ has handled the problem?
As I recall, in October 2008, one of the governors of the Central Bank of Iceland, Davíð Oddsson, stated that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless". I'm not sure how attempting to ignore their responsibilities under international law is a valid solution.
Many individual savers as well as several local councils in the UK were faced with the prospect of losing the huge amounts that they had invested with Icelandic banks. This forced the UK government to agree emergency loans to the Icelandic government and to cover the amounts invested by UK citizens in order to prevent a wider collapse in confidence in the banks. Iceland, as a country still owes the Dutch government around €1.7 billion and the UK around £4 billion and as far as I know, they still haven’t agreed how, or even if they will repay this.
These sums may not seem large by American or even Greek standards, but for a country with such a small population, this is a crushing debt.
I feel desperately sorry for the Icelandic people who I admire very much. They were let down by naïve and careless politicians and greedy and immoral bankers and other businessmen. It isn’t fair that they should be saddled with a debt that will probably last a generation.
But, we cannot allow a situation where governments fail to meet their responsibilities in regulating the financial institutions operating in their country. If one country got away with it, then others would surely follow and we really would get a global economic collapse.
Axiom142
Roger could you expand on how ‘Iceland’ has handled the problem?
As I recall, in October 2008, one of the governors of the Central Bank of Iceland, Davíð Oddsson, stated that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless". I'm not sure how attempting to ignore their responsibilities under international law is a valid solution.
Many individual savers as well as several local councils in the UK were faced with the prospect of losing the huge amounts that they had invested with Icelandic banks. This forced the UK government to agree emergency loans to the Icelandic government and to cover the amounts invested by UK citizens in order to prevent a wider collapse in confidence in the banks. Iceland, as a country still owes the Dutch government around €1.7 billion and the UK around £4 billion and as far as I know, they still haven’t agreed how, or even if they will repay this.
These sums may not seem large by American or even Greek standards, but for a country with such a small population, this is a crushing debt.
I feel desperately sorry for the Icelandic people who I admire very much. They were let down by naïve and careless politicians and greedy and immoral bankers and other businessmen. It isn’t fair that they should be saddled with a debt that will probably last a generation.
But, we cannot allow a situation where governments fail to meet their responsibilities in regulating the financial institutions operating in their country. If one country got away with it, then others would surely follow and we really would get a global economic collapse.
Axiom142
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Damn you for being so logical, Baker!
There is a lot to admire about the Icelandic people and nation (apart from sending all their Vikings over to molest our monks a few hundred years ago).
Running a small homogenous group or organization is much easier than trying to manage a very large one with widely differing cultures, values and mindsets, not to mention languages and huge geographical distances.
Axiom142
Damn you for being so logical, Baker!
There is a lot to admire about the Icelandic people and nation (apart from sending all their Vikings over to molest our monks a few hundred years ago).
Running a small homogenous group or organization is much easier than trying to manage a very large one with widely differing cultures, values and mindsets, not to mention languages and huge geographical distances.
Axiom142
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
well not to be too logical Ax but the Vikings afflicting the UK were from Denmark and Norway - the Icelandics were famed for sending out bards to afflict everyone with endlessly complex verse forms.
Damn you for being so logical, Baker!
There is a lot to admire about the Icelandic people and nation (apart from sending all their Vikings over to molest our monks a few hundred years ago).
Running a small homogenous group or organization is much easier than trying to manage a very large one with widely differing cultures, values and mindsets, not to mention languages and huge geographical distances.
Axiom142
well not to be too logical Ax but the Vikings afflicting the UK were from Denmark and Norway - the Icelandics were famed for sending out bards to afflict everyone with endlessly complex verse forms.
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
From Wikipedia (where else?):
The Old Norse feminine noun víking refers to an expedition overseas. It occurs in Viking Age runic inscriptions and in later medieval writings in set expressions such as the phrasal verb fara í víking "to go on an expedition". In later texts such as the Icelandic sagas, the phrase "to go viking" implies participation in raiding activity or piracy, and not simply seaborne missions of trade and commerce.
I remember sitting next to an Icelander in the sauna at St Hill who was quite proud of his Viking heritage and told me that they still used the phrase “to go Viking”.
You are right that it was mainly the Dane and Norwegians who came over to molest our monks, but I’m sure the Icelanders weren’t adverse to a bit of plundering. I mean, who wouldn’t?
Axiom142
From Wikipedia (where else?):
The Old Norse feminine noun víking refers to an expedition overseas. It occurs in Viking Age runic inscriptions and in later medieval writings in set expressions such as the phrasal verb fara í víking "to go on an expedition". In later texts such as the Icelandic sagas, the phrase "to go viking" implies participation in raiding activity or piracy, and not simply seaborne missions of trade and commerce.
I remember sitting next to an Icelander in the sauna at St Hill who was quite proud of his Viking heritage and told me that they still used the phrase “to go Viking”.
You are right that it was mainly the Dane and Norwegians who came over to molest our monks, but I’m sure the Icelanders weren’t adverse to a bit of plundering. I mean, who wouldn’t?
Axiom142
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
One man's 'seaborne missions of trade and commerce' is another man's piracy.
Mankind raided before he traded. Now, with the advent of financial globalization, the two have become one.
Mark A. Baker
One man's 'seaborne missions of trade and commerce' is another man's piracy.
Mankind raided before he traded. Now, with the advent of financial globalization, the two have become one.
Mark A. Baker
Hatshepsut
Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
How very astute.
_________
Actually, I see ...it's same old, same old
One man's 'seaborne missions of trade and commerce' is another man's piracy.
Mankind raided before he traded. Now, with the advent of financial globalization, the two have become one.
Mark A. Baker
How very astute.
Actually, I see ...it's same old, same old
RogerB
Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Ax,
This part in color above:
As I recall, in October 2008, one of the governors of the Central Bank of Iceland, Davíð Oddsson, stated that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless". I'm not sure how attempting to ignore their responsibilities under international law is a valid solution.
It wasn't a debt incurred by the Icelandic people. It was debt incurred by private, independent commercial banks operating in Iceland.
There was no violation of international law by the nation or its people . . . what there was, was a failure of the banks as commercial enterprises to honor their contracts. And that is not something the citizens of any nation who did not contract or incur the debt should have to pay for.
A better explanation of the sequence and the current scenario was carried in yesterday's The New York Times . . . sorry I had not read my delivered "Times" at the time I posted yesterday. I'd only read my on-line WSJ (my sweet V takes the print copy to work with her each day, so I'm left to do it on-line)
This Times article is worth reading. In essence, what happened is that the source of the trouble began with the PM who preceded the ex-PM being sued.
This is an excerpt from the Times article:
Link to the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/world/europe/05iceland.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Geir Haarde&st=cse
Rog
Ax,
This part in color above:
As I recall, in October 2008, one of the governors of the Central Bank of Iceland, Davíð Oddsson, stated that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless". I'm not sure how attempting to ignore their responsibilities under international law is a valid solution.
It wasn't a debt incurred by the Icelandic people. It was debt incurred by private, independent commercial banks operating in Iceland.
There was no violation of international law by the nation or its people . . . what there was, was a failure of the banks as commercial enterprises to honor their contracts. And that is not something the citizens of any nation who did not contract or incur the debt should have to pay for.
A better explanation of the sequence and the current scenario was carried in yesterday's The New York Times . . . sorry I had not read my delivered "Times" at the time I posted yesterday. I'd only read my on-line WSJ (my sweet V takes the print copy to work with her each day, so I'm left to do it on-line
)This Times article is worth reading. In essence, what happened is that the source of the trouble began with the PM who preceded the ex-PM being sued.
This is an excerpt from the Times article:
Link to the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/world/europe/05iceland.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Geir Haarde&st=cse
Rog
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
You are right Roger – it was a debt incurred by private companies.
However, since the Icelandic government had overall responsibility for regulating all financial institutions operating in it’s country and covering any failures of the same, the debt has had to be transferred to the Icelandic state and therefore to the people of Iceland. According to Wikipedia, the total national debt is now around $10.4billion
Understandably, they (the people) are very angry about this and I expect you heard a bit about this and how unfair it was when you went to the country. And it is unfair, however that is the position they are in.
BTW, you didn’t answer my original question.
Could you expand on how ‘Iceland’ has handled the problem?
The question as to whether or not international law was broken is actually not clear, but in any case a moot point as I’ll explain.
As I mentioned previously, the Icelandic government had a responsibility to regulate the financial institutions operating in its country and when Davíð Oddsson announced that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless", he enraged the British Chancellor of the Exchequer (Alistair Darling). This was because around 300,000 British savers as well as quite a few local councils had money invested in Icelandic banks and the UK government would have to cover the amounts lost.
The UK government argued that the Icelandic government were refusing to meet their obligations under international law and froze the assets of the Landsbanki Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsbanki_Freezing_Order_2008 ). This was considered such a serious situation, the order was made under the provision of The Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. The Icelandic people were rather upset at the time that such a law was enacted against them, but then again what choice did the UK government have?
There seems to be some merit in the argument that the Icelandic government were breaking the law – see here: http://www.asil.org/insights100301.cfm
A Joint Legal Opinion by four experts under the auspices of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council (ECOFIN) reached the preliminary conclusion that Iceland is under an obligation to ensure that its deposit-guarantee scheme has adequate means and is in a position to indemnify depositors. But whether this amounts to an obligation to achieve that result in all circumstances, or refers to an obligation to set up and operate an effective deposit insurance scheme with adequate capitalization, is disputed.
But in any case, it is a moot point as the Icelandic government appear to have agreed to cover the losses and ensure that depositors get their money, so any further action will (hopefully) not be necessary.
I think that there is a lesson here for all of us – make sure you know what your politicians are letting you in for!
Axiom142
You are right Roger – it was a debt incurred by private companies.
However, since the Icelandic government had overall responsibility for regulating all financial institutions operating in it’s country and covering any failures of the same, the debt has had to be transferred to the Icelandic state and therefore to the people of Iceland. According to Wikipedia, the total national debt is now around $10.4billion
Understandably, they (the people) are very angry about this and I expect you heard a bit about this and how unfair it was when you went to the country. And it is unfair, however that is the position they are in.
BTW, you didn’t answer my original question.
Could you expand on how ‘Iceland’ has handled the problem?
The question as to whether or not international law was broken is actually not clear, but in any case a moot point as I’ll explain.
As I mentioned previously, the Icelandic government had a responsibility to regulate the financial institutions operating in its country and when Davíð Oddsson announced that "we [the Icelandic State] do not intend to pay the debts of the banks that have been a little heedless", he enraged the British Chancellor of the Exchequer (Alistair Darling). This was because around 300,000 British savers as well as quite a few local councils had money invested in Icelandic banks and the UK government would have to cover the amounts lost.
The UK government argued that the Icelandic government were refusing to meet their obligations under international law and froze the assets of the Landsbanki Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsbanki_Freezing_Order_2008 ). This was considered such a serious situation, the order was made under the provision of The Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. The Icelandic people were rather upset at the time that such a law was enacted against them, but then again what choice did the UK government have?
There seems to be some merit in the argument that the Icelandic government were breaking the law – see here: http://www.asil.org/insights100301.cfm
A Joint Legal Opinion by four experts under the auspices of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council (ECOFIN) reached the preliminary conclusion that Iceland is under an obligation to ensure that its deposit-guarantee scheme has adequate means and is in a position to indemnify depositors. But whether this amounts to an obligation to achieve that result in all circumstances, or refers to an obligation to set up and operate an effective deposit insurance scheme with adequate capitalization, is disputed.
But in any case, it is a moot point as the Icelandic government appear to have agreed to cover the losses and ensure that depositors get their money, so any further action will (hopefully) not be necessary.
I think that there is a lesson here for all of us – make sure you know what your politicians are letting you in for!
Axiom142
RogerB
Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973
Ax,
I honestly don't have time to get into all the "i" dotting thing. This sort of thing ends up going on forever . . . I'm not in for that.
I will say I did follow this case from its beginning, and at first the original government in power was going along with sticking the taxpayers with the losses . . . at the behest of the IMF and all the usual international monetary suspects. The people objected, and that government got voted out and a referendum was held on the issue.
In essence, what Iceland did to solve the scene was to declare the insolvent banks bankrupt, to then have the government take them over and fire the managements responsible for the screw-ups and to then get the banks and their internal financial system back in working order.
What they did not do is print a lot of money and throw it at a criminal banking system still run by the dunces who screwed up . . . as has been done in the US, UK, and Europe.
Iceland did not take from the taxpayer the taxpayers' money and thus cause hardship to the taxpayers and nor did it inflate its currency to the detriment of its people to reward criminal bankers as was done in the US.
The US and European banks have not been made solvent for all of the cash sunk into them . . . . just wait and watch what's coming down the pike this and next year. The governments have sunk $Trillions into the banks only to see the money being misused and not being applied to benefit the national economies . . .
Iceland killed the debt and liabilities by declaring bankrupt the banks in accordance with law and approved accounting standards, taking them over, managing them correctly and honestly and starting afresh. And the country is now relatively back on its feet.
Compare this to the US where the major banks are factually insolvent and should be declared bankrupt but are only kept afloat by phony accounting valuations . . . pressure was brought to bear on the FASB (March 2009) to relax its normal accounting standards so that now banks can carry on their books fraudulent valuations they themselves determine . . . not the market. That is: they are carrying mountains of "assets" that have no market value (as no one will buy them) on their books at fictional values.
And this is one major reason why there is no "credit available" in the US. These banks are walking dead.
I could go on, but you should research it if you are particularly interested. I have already posted on ESMB all the links needed to do that in earlier posts (not just on this series of my visit to Iceland) . . . and I wonder if you actually read the links in this recent post??
Or better still . . . go to Iceland like I did
But as to the jaw-boning by all the monetary wonks . . . you've only cited that which suits the IMF and Central banker types . . . it's rather like saying it was OK for Hank Paulson to hold a gun to the head of the US Executive Branch to rip off the US taxpayer: as happened. And the action of the Brit government is in accord with their grandstanding . . . nothing new there. The do outrage rather well.
The real deal, is that silly "investors" tried to get a deal that was too good to be true . . . and we are always warned to be suspicious of that. And so they should not be looking to innocent parties to solve their loss that resulted from their own imprudence and/or greed.
In fact, I did question the idiocy of the Icelandic banks offerings long ago . . . in the context of the international monetary market, you had to be an idiot to not see their offer had to come unstuck. It's a tiny country, and its banks are making these grand crazy offers . . . how in God's name were they going to make the promised returns to depositors and investors. It was silly on its face. The offered rates of return were not available anywhere.
I had the option of investing in it as well . . . I looked at it and said no bloody way just as I would not put any money anywhere near Greece or Zimbabwe, etc.
Fact is, the banking system in Iceland went bankrupt. Central Bank oversight sucked . . . blame the bankers, not the people nor the rest of its government.
Did you read the Times piece . . . . the former prime minister engineered a change in the banking scene then took over the central bank! That's the bastard who should be standing trial.
and as to you last paragraph:
I would say the better lesson is: make sure you are not too greedy and to make sure you truly understand what you are investing in . . . and as far as you "knowing what your politicians are letting your in for" . . . I'd say the better solution is to be involved as the Icelanders were and to take charge and be sure your elected officials do indeed represent your wishes and not their own corrupt interests, as the shithead who screwed the Icelandic system and became its Central Banker, did.
In the US, the electoral is so disconnected that the politicians have turned the system into a pig-fest for themselves. And the electorate are not only not having their interests represented as ought be, but they are being shafted at every turn by most of their "representatives."
The Icelanders did not stand for that because they are involved!
Rog
Ax,
I honestly don't have time to get into all the "i" dotting thing. This sort of thing ends up going on forever . . . I'm not in for that.
I will say I did follow this case from its beginning, and at first the original government in power was going along with sticking the taxpayers with the losses . . . at the behest of the IMF and all the usual international monetary suspects. The people objected, and that government got voted out and a referendum was held on the issue.
In essence, what Iceland did to solve the scene was to declare the insolvent banks bankrupt, to then have the government take them over and fire the managements responsible for the screw-ups and to then get the banks and their internal financial system back in working order.
What they did not do is print a lot of money and throw it at a criminal banking system still run by the dunces who screwed up . . . as has been done in the US, UK, and Europe.
Iceland did not take from the taxpayer the taxpayers' money and thus cause hardship to the taxpayers and nor did it inflate its currency to the detriment of its people to reward criminal bankers as was done in the US.
The US and European banks have not been made solvent for all of the cash sunk into them . . . . just wait and watch what's coming down the pike this and next year. The governments have sunk $Trillions into the banks only to see the money being misused and not being applied to benefit the national economies . . .
Iceland killed the debt and liabilities by declaring bankrupt the banks in accordance with law and approved accounting standards, taking them over, managing them correctly and honestly and starting afresh. And the country is now relatively back on its feet.
Compare this to the US where the major banks are factually insolvent and should be declared bankrupt but are only kept afloat by phony accounting valuations . . . pressure was brought to bear on the FASB (March 2009) to relax its normal accounting standards so that now banks can carry on their books fraudulent valuations they themselves determine . . . not the market. That is: they are carrying mountains of "assets" that have no market value (as no one will buy them) on their books at fictional values.
And this is one major reason why there is no "credit available" in the US. These banks are walking dead.
I could go on, but you should research it if you are particularly interested. I have already posted on ESMB all the links needed to do that in earlier posts (not just on this series of my visit to Iceland) . . . and I wonder if you actually read the links in this recent post??
Or better still . . . go to Iceland like I did
But as to the jaw-boning by all the monetary wonks . . . you've only cited that which suits the IMF and Central banker types . . . it's rather like saying it was OK for Hank Paulson to hold a gun to the head of the US Executive Branch to rip off the US taxpayer: as happened. And the action of the Brit government is in accord with their grandstanding . . . nothing new there. The do outrage rather well.
The real deal, is that silly "investors" tried to get a deal that was too good to be true . . . and we are always warned to be suspicious of that. And so they should not be looking to innocent parties to solve their loss that resulted from their own imprudence and/or greed.
In fact, I did question the idiocy of the Icelandic banks offerings long ago . . . in the context of the international monetary market, you had to be an idiot to not see their offer had to come unstuck. It's a tiny country, and its banks are making these grand crazy offers . . . how in God's name were they going to make the promised returns to depositors and investors. It was silly on its face. The offered rates of return were not available anywhere.
I had the option of investing in it as well . . . I looked at it and said no bloody way just as I would not put any money anywhere near Greece or Zimbabwe, etc.
Fact is, the banking system in Iceland went bankrupt. Central Bank oversight sucked . . . blame the bankers, not the people nor the rest of its government.
Did you read the Times piece . . . . the former prime minister engineered a change in the banking scene then took over the central bank! That's the bastard who should be standing trial.
and as to you last paragraph:
I would say the better lesson is: make sure you are not too greedy and to make sure you truly understand what you are investing in . . . and as far as you "knowing what your politicians are letting your in for" . . . I'd say the better solution is to be involved as the Icelanders were and to take charge and be sure your elected officials do indeed represent your wishes and not their own corrupt interests, as the shithead who screwed the Icelandic system and became its Central Banker, did.
In the US, the electoral is so disconnected that the politicians have turned the system into a pig-fest for themselves. And the electorate are not only not having their interests represented as ought be, but they are being shafted at every turn by most of their "representatives."
The Icelanders did not stand for that because they are involved!
Rog
- Status