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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Ted I don't agree with you. Especially these sentences at the end:

"The result is that all hierarchies inevitably become top-heavy with psychopaths. Since psychopaths have no limitations on what they can or will do to get to the top, the ones in charge are generally pathological. It is not power that corrupts, it is that corrupt individuals seek power."

It is not inevitable at all. I have known numerous hierarchies with really first class people at the top - people who fully deserved the positions they held and the respect they got from their juniors.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Ted I don't agree with you. Especially these sentences at the end:

"The result is that all hierarchies inevitably become top-heavy with psychopaths. Since psychopaths have no limitations on what they can or will do to get to the top, the ones in charge are generally pathological. It is not power that corrupts, it is that corrupt individuals seek power."

It is not inevitable at all. I have known numerous hierarchies with really first class people at the top - people who fully deserved the positions they held and the respect they got from their juniors.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Leon, I love your posts. You always bring a beacon of light and truth to a negative view that seems to make perfect sense, and often from a different perspective.

Power certainly corrupts many people. Not all. Gradients of power so a person can get accustomed to it without losing their centre, their "self", and doesn't fall into some weird identity makes a difference.

Some people are just natural leaders, though. Lincoln. Gandhi. They fell into their positions but never lost their integrity or compassion for even the lowliest.

Power is heady, dizzying. It's a different perspective but the perspective is only one of looking down on others if there is a false identity/false relationship to self. Then the relationship to others is based on that identity. The true perspective isn't one of elevation, after all. It's one of centeredness.

Lincoln was an arrogant, unlikeable jerk until he was challenged to a duel and backed down. Changed his perspective.

Some people get it.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Ted I don't agree with you. Especially these sentences at the end:

"The result is that all hierarchies inevitably become top-heavy with psychopaths. Since psychopaths have no limitations on what they can or will do to get to the top, the ones in charge are generally pathological. It is not power that corrupts, it is that corrupt individuals seek power."

It is not inevitable at all. I have known numerous hierarchies with really first class people at the top - people who fully deserved the positions they held and the respect they got from their juniors.



No shit.

I am not concerned with the actions of honorable people except to study them and try to emulate them. The question I ponder is, how do destructive nut cases rise to power?
 
Re: Psychopathic Domination

In Scientology, out of Scientology, this is the problem we face: :omg::omg::omg: From article, this explains--for those needing explanation--as to why/how the honest person can get nailed on a security check while the pathologically inclined skate on through. Emphasis below is mine:

http://www.whale.to/b/callahan1.html

When you understand the true nature of psychopathic influence, that it is conscienceless, emotionless, selfish, cold and calculating, and devoid of any moral or ethical standards, you are horrified, but at the same time everything suddenly begins to makes sense. Our society is ever more soulless because the people who lead it and who set the example are soulless – they literally have no conscience.

In his book Political Oenology, Andrej Lobaczewski explains that clinical psychopaths enjoy advantages even in non-violent competitions to climb the ranks of social hierarchies. Because they can lie without remorse (and without the telltale physiological stress that is measured by lie detector tests), psychopaths can always say whatever is necessary to get what they want. In court, for example, psychopaths can tell extreme bald-faced lies in a plausible manner, while their sane opponents are handicapped by an emotional predisposition to remain within hailing distance of the truth. Too often, the judge or jury imagines that the truth must be somewhere in the middle, and then issues decisions that benefit the psychopath. As with judges and juries, so too with those charged with decisions concerning who to promote and who not to promote in corporate, military and governmental hierarchies. The result is that all hierarchies inevitably become top-heavy with psychopaths. Since psychopaths have no limitations on what they can or will do to get to the top, the ones in charge are generally pathological. It is not power that corrupts, it is that corrupt individuals seek power.​


This piece just keeps working its way through my consciousness. I keep finding examples where I knuckled under to authority for no goods reason.

The effect that it's having is like Kingsley Wimbush's De-Dinging Process.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thanks for the validation.

What happens is that guys who have a basic out-of-valence condition in their lives flip valences more easily after that. Give them a sniff of power and they're ioff into thinking they are some sort of "only one" valence. God or superman or the messiah or something like that. A singularity exalted above all others. And then, not having the horsepower to handle such a power position, they go into a weird "protecting self" by destroying those under them. Down the tubes they go. Hubbard was a good example. The dwarf even better.

Mary's ethics pogram, thoroughly done, would have handled them.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Scientology on the High Seas: Ringing in 20 A.D. with the Commodore!

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/scientology_on.php
On November 18, we started a new feature here on Fridays: the Voice has obtained hundreds of copies of L. Ron Hubbard's previously unpublished "Orders of the Day," which he gave to crew members as he sailed the Mediterranean. Our documents cover the period from late 1968 through 1971, and this time we're looking at what was happening the week of January 1 through 7 during those years.

After the jump, LRH is not pleased with conditions aboard his yacht...


1969

January 3: The yacht's in bad shape? Turn in your shipmates!.......
 
Re: Psychopathic Domination

In Scientology, out of Scientology, this is the problem we face: :omg::omg::omg: From article, this explains--for those needing explanation--as to why/how the honest person can get nailed on a security check while the pathologically inclined skate on through.

Back in the 80s, I had this discussion with an OT5 Israeli. He told me the only thing a terrorist or SP would read on is times they got caught or nearly got caught because they have no conscience, simple as that.

I was in the SO at the time. Took me months to really take this in, with all its ramifications. Anything that doesnt' violate another's moral code isn't going to read. Anything that harms another that someone doesn't care about isn't going to read, either. Psychotics are completely selfish and self-centered so don't read on hurting others. But they all read on getting caught or nearly getting caught because they all know what society or others expect - they just don't take it personally onboard.

Using this, I became a crack D of P interviewer at AOLA.

But this is what dissociation is about, too - 'what applies to others doesn't apply to me'. A psychotic is fully dissociated, and every low responsibility, selfish person is dissociated to some degree, too.
 
Re: Psychopathic Domination

Back in the 80s, I had this discussion with an OT5 Israeli. He told me the only thing a terrorist or SP would read on is times they got caught or nearly got caught because they have no conscience, simple as that.

I was in the SO at the time. Took me months to really take this in, with all its ramifications. Anything that doesnt' violate another's moral code isn't going to read. Anything that harms another that someone doesn't care about isn't going to read, either. Psychotics are completely selfish and self-centered so don't read on hurting others. But they all read on getting caught or nearly getting caught because they all know what society or others expect - they just don't take it personally onboard.

Using this, I became a crack D of P interviewer at AOLA.

But this is what dissociation is about, too - 'what applies to others doesn't apply to me'. A psychotic is fully dissociated, and every low responsibility, selfish person is dissociated to some degree, too.

Yes, the true criminal will read on the violation of not having committed a crime . . . like a mad Jihadist would read on having failed to do the dictate of his calling . . . .

R
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Leon, I love your posts. You always bring a beacon of light and truth to a negative view that seems to make perfect sense, and often from a different perspective.

Power certainly corrupts many people. Not all. Gradients of power so a person can get accustomed to it without losing their centre, their "self", and doesn't fall into some weird identity makes a difference.

Some people are just natural leaders, though. Lincoln. Gandhi. They fell into their positions but never lost their integrity or compassion for even the lowliest.

Power is heady, dizzying. It's a different perspective but the perspective is only one of looking down on others if there is a false identity/false relationship to self. Then the relationship to others is based on that identity. The true perspective isn't one of elevation, after all. It's one of centeredness.

Lincoln was an arrogant, unlikeable jerk until he was challenged to a duel and backed down. Changed his perspective.

Some people get it.

I like your second paragraph about gradients of power. How a person comes into power appears to be very important and coming into it on a gradient is often beneficial. Probably even more important is the person's motivation!! Are they motivated by a duty to serve their group or by self aggrandizement so that they can control the lives of others and demand adulation and homage from them? Another, factor is whether or not a potential leader's public wants them in office, i.e. are they elected or appointed or do they pull strings on the side lines and achieve power through coercion and appointing themselves.

I never heard that Lincoln was arrogant or unlikeable and have never heard that he was a "jerk". To the contrary, the man was extremely intelligent and beloved by his public. Even those who wanted to retain slavery realized that he was no "jerk". In the perspective of History, Lincoln is almost universally acknowledged as being one of our two greatest presidents, the other being Washington. An arrogant, unlikeable jerk, could you please explain how you came up with that?

I do not believe Gandhi or Lincoln "fell" into their power. Both men were duty motivated and fought hard against strong opposition in order to earn their power. Lincoln helped form a new party, the Republican party, as a platform from which he could achieve power and faced a very spirited oppostion, including a series of renown debates with Douglas. Gandhi, a man small in physical stature took on the whole of the British Empire with his intention and his will. Both these great leaders gave freedom to those whom they were serving.

In the C of S, DM was not appointed to power by his predecessor LRH, nor was he selected in by his fellow staff members. Instead, he seized power from within with an unscrupulous program to visciously eliminate any and all people who might oppose him. Now, even though his approach is not particularly commendable or ethical, he illustrated that he was capable of stealth and cunning ("street smarts"). He also illustrated the ability to bring his intention to fruition, both by achieving power and by staying in power over the decades.

The worst type of power would be exemplified by a person who reads some of Hubbard's or DM's writings and takes a little bit of Hubbard's training and processing and then uses those things to transform his previously humdrum life into a life with delusions of grandeur. He joins the Sea Org, Hubbard's supposedly "elite" team, takes on a zone of operations which he knows almost nothing about and them uses his Sea Org altitude to control people. This type of person is a fool and such fools usually enjoy humiliating and belittling the people over whom they have power.

A typical and classic case happened to me and my ex wife around 1999 when my daughter was 12 years old. Two recruiters, a male and a female, both about 18 years old were corraling our daughter after her Student Hat Course and were attempting to recruit her for the Sea Org. They were in a room with the doors closed but we could see our daughter through the windows. We knocked on the windows and yelled at the recruiters that we were there to pick up our daughter from course. The two lunatics flashed looks of disgust on their faces and motioned for us to go away. We opened the door and went in. The two psychos started yelling at us for interrupting a Sea Org recruiting cycle and threatened to write us up and have us "declared suppressive".

We got into their faces and a heated encounter took place. In the course of this encounter, the male psycho bellowed out that the Sea Org and its personnel were "Senior" to a kid's parents when it came to determining the future of their child!!! Now that statement was and is complete and total insanity and illustrates the outcome of the worst possible way for a person to attempt to achieve Power. Read something from a leader such as Hubbard, join his "elite" group and thereby appoint yourself to power.

Rather than being pure evil, it is probably pure immaturity and stupidity but the final outcome is virtually the same as an outcome attained through pure evil! This incident is what sparked me to leave C of S. The blatant insanity was so clearly obvious after what the recruiters said to us. My response was - "Sayonara baby!" I left that Org but tried another org with the same results. Then bye bye to C of S.

Lakey
 
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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Good post, Lakey.

I have over Christmas and whatever been getting into studying up on the written workd of Ingo Swann. You know who he is. Well as a researcher/writer he is very analtical and particular in disecting issues and breaking them down to their underlying parts, etc. You have to stay focussed to get through him.

He has a few books published on the topic of Power - what it is and how to achieve it. The first thing he makes clear is that humanoid power is based on the power pyramid - one or few people at the top, more in the middle who have some measure of power in order to get the top guy's orders come into reality, and masses of hoipoloi at the bottom who do as they are told. Virtually all of human power structures use this system, and the important aspect of it to really really grok is that the system is purpose-built to keep the less power people in their junior positions and prevent them from getting futher up the pyramid. The hows and whys of this get dealt with in detail.

Then he goes into real power, real thetan horsepower as we say. And what makes that andhow do the energetics of that work, etc. His third book on power, which takes the matter still further, is still in the writing stage.

But ole dwarfy - he is a pure humanoid dictator, as we all know. Once in a blue moon you get a national leader who rises to the top on the basis of real horsepower and who leads well. The are intensely interesting people where you find them. But mostly you find that people who rise up to the top are a mixture of the two types - they have basic good horsepower qualtities and they try to use the pyyramid system to everyone's best advantage. So you find aspects of both sides in them and biographers tend to focus on the side they wish others to believe in.


Ingo Swann is well worth the study effort one puts in. Studious types like me love it all, others may find it a bit much. But his studies of humen bio-energetics is utterly fascinating. I don't think any other writer ever has dealt with some of the topics he covers and the depth of understanding he presents.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Good post, Lakey.

I have over Christmas and whatever been getting into studying up on the written workd of Ingo Swann. You know who he is. Well as a researcher/writer he is very analtical and particular in disecting issues and breaking them down to their underlying parts, etc. You have to stay focussed to get through him.

He has a few books published on the topic of Power - what it is and how to achieve it. The first thing he makes clear is that humanoid power is based on the power pyramid - one or few people at the top, more in the middle who have some measure of power in order to get the top guy's orders come into reality, and masses of hoipoloi at the bottom who do as they are told. Virtually all of human power structures use this system, and the important aspect of it to really really grok is that the system is purpose-built to keep the less power people in their junior positions and prevent them from getting futher up the pyramid. The hows and whys of this get dealt with in detail.

Then he goes into real power, real thetan horsepower as we say. And what makes that andhow do the energetics of that work, etc. His third book on power, which takes the matter still further, is still in the writing stage.

But ole dwarfy - he is a pure humanoid dictator, as we all know. Once in a blue moon you get a national leader who rises to the top on the basis of real horsepower and who leads well. The are intensely interesting people where you find them. But mostly you find that people who rise up to the top are a mixture of the two types - they have basic good horsepower qualtities and they try to use the pyyramid system to everyone's best advantage. So you find aspects of both sides in them and biographers tend to focus on the side they wish others to believe in.


Ingo Swann is well worth the study effort one puts in. Studious types like me love it all, others may find it a bit much. But his studies of humen bio-energetics is utterly fascinating. I don't think any other writer ever has dealt with some of the topics he covers and the depth of understanding he presents.

Ingo has written a number of books. Do you have the titles for these two books on power you are referring to in the above post?

Ole dwarfy - what a perfect name for the midget...I love it. :hysterical:
 
Re: Psychopathic Domination

Yes, the true criminal will read on the violation of not having committed a crime . . . like a mad Jihadist would read on having failed to do the dictate of his calling . . . .

R


My favorite overt / withhold from the late 60s was a mafia guy, who didn't bump off someone, he said he would.

In those days, we didn't write that kind of thing down

Today, I'd hope for it being written down, so that I could look on the dead OSA person, who would have tried to use blackmail on the PC :)

Just kidding
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Good post, Lakey.

I have over Christmas and whatever been getting into studying up on the written workd of Ingo Swann. You know who he is. Well as a researcher/writer he is very analtical and particular in disecting issues and breaking them down to their underlying parts, etc. You have to stay focussed to get through him.

He has a few books published on the topic of Power - what it is and how to achieve it. The first thing he makes clear is that humanoid power is based on the power pyramid - one or few people at the top, more in the middle who have some measure of power in order to get the top guy's orders come into reality, and masses of hoipoloi at the bottom who do as they are told. Virtually all of human power structures use this system, and the important aspect of it to really really grok is that the system is purpose-built to keep the less power people in their junior positions and prevent them from getting futher up the pyramid. The hows and whys of this get dealt with in detail.

Then he goes into real power, real thetan horsepower as we say. And what makes that andhow do the energetics of that work, etc. His third book on power, which takes the matter still further, is still in the writing stage.

But ole dwarfy - he is a pure humanoid dictator, as we all know. Once in a blue moon you get a national leader who rises to the top on the basis of real horsepower and who leads well. The are intensely interesting people where you find them. But mostly you find that people who rise up to the top are a mixture of the two types - they have basic good horsepower qualtities and they try to use the pyyramid system to everyone's best advantage. So you find aspects of both sides in them and biographers tend to focus on the side they wish others to believe in.


Ingo Swann is well worth the study effort one puts in. Studious types like me love it all, others may find it a bit much. But his studies of humen bio-energetics is utterly fascinating. I don't think any other writer ever has dealt with some of the topics he covers and the depth of understanding he presents.

Very interesting Leon. I find many of your topics above interesting. I didn't know too much about Ingo Swan, only that he was somehow affiliated with CCLA through a connection with Yvonne and that he participated with Hal Puthoff in remote viewing experiments conducted for the U.S. Military. Both Swan and Puthoff had done the OT levels in the early and mid 70's and were claiming more remote viewing capabilities might be available from the OT Levels.

On the Power Pyramid which you describe, Hubbard's Org Board comes to mind as an example of a a Power Pyramid. You see the name L Ron Hubbard in the upper left in LARGE print. Also up in that corner in smaller print were names of other Int Execs. Then the Divisions of the Org Board are listed below and each Division is broken down into Departments and each department into Sections. The Org Board has some nice features which I think are brilliant such as each Department having an "awareness characteristic" associated with it and the entire Org Board being set up on a Thetan, Mind Body and Product set up with each Division, Department also conforming to the Thetan, Mind Body and Product concatenation.

With these features, a lot of power could have been generated lower on the Org Board, in the Divisions and Departments but Hubbard & Co. seemed to frown on a middle or lower level exec doing any original thinking. Any effort in that direction was immediately stamped out by one's seniors!

You quite accurately describe DM in your post. When you associate with some who has above average horsepower and is attempting to lead so that everyone wins, it is really a pleasure to work in such a situation. Thanks, Leon, for the tips on Ingo Swan; I will check out his writings.
Lakey
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hubbard's Org Board is "brilliant"?

Does anybody know of any company ( not staffed by slave labor ) that had ( has ) successfully run using a fully staffed org board and not gone out of business ( OOB ) eventually of filed BK.

Seems lots of companies tried to run on an org board but it just didn't work out in application as it took too many people dedicated to busy work an not production.

2 or 3 people operating off an org board with several whole divisions being held from above ( HFA ) hardly count as a " full " org board.

Org boards are, at best, needlessly cumbersome ( not to mention having a lowly value of the persons on a "post" needing so much constant oversight ).

Anyway, workable example in a business without slave labor ?
 
Re: Psychopathic Domination

My favorite overt / withhold from the late 60s was a mafia guy, who didn't bump off someone, he said he would.

In those days, we didn't write that kind of thing down

Today, I'd hope for it being written down, so that I could look on the dead OSA person, who would have tried to use blackmail on the PC :)

Just kidding

Now there's a story!
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hubbard's Org Board is "brilliant"?

Who said that Hubbard's Org Board is brilliant? I sure didn't. You have a technique where you incorrectly state what someone says into something with a completely different meaning and then criticise the statement which you just made up while acting as if you are criticising the other person? It is getting old and tiresome. If you comment on something, you should quote what was actually said.

Does anybody know of any company ( not staffed by slave labor ) that had ( has ) successfully run using a fully staffed org board and not gone out of business ( OOB ) eventually of filed BK.

No, I don't know of any? A typical pattern which occurs often involves a Chiropractic or Dental business. The Org Board is installed and weekly pressure is put on the clients for large sums of immediate cash. The Gross Income stat rises dramatically for a few weeks. A large sum of money is collected and most of it goes to agents of the C of S who end up making huge donations to the IAS or Super Power building with other peoople's funds. The Chiro or Dentist now has a big back log of customers who have prepaid for services but they don't have the delivery capability to perform those serivces. The clientele get upset, threaten to sue and/ or go elsewhere to seek out another practitioner. That is the pattern

Seems lots of companies tried to run on an org board but it just didn't work out in application as it took too many people dedicated to busy work an not production.

2 or 3 people operating off an org board with several whole divisions being held from above ( HFA ) hardly count as a " full " org board.

Org boards are, at best, needlessly cumbersome ( not to mention having a lowly value of the persons on a "post" needing so much constant oversight ).

Anyway, workable example in a business without slave labor ?

Before you criticize, you might try reading and DUPLICATING a person's entire post! What I did is cite a couple of feature on the Org Board which I felt were brilliant. My next paragraph then says the following:

"With these features, a lot of power could have been generated lower on the Org Board, in the Divisions and Departments but Hubbard & Co. seemed to frown on a middle or lower level exec doing any original thinking. Any effort in that direction was immediately stamped out by one's seniors!" (Blue type and Bold Print added for this post)

Therefore, after pointing out what I felt were clever features, I said that they could have led to a lot of Power being generated by middle and lower range staff BUT THEY DID NOT BECAUSE HUBBARD DID NOT WANT ANY CRITICAL OR ORIGINAL THINKING DONE BY HIS STAFFS. If the staff actually tried to think with or use these clever features then Hubbard and his higher execs would severly upbraid the lower level exec.

That is one reason the Org Board does not work when applied out in society. Another reason is the system of weekly stats and the demand that the stat must increase every week or the person in charge did not perform well. This leads to no long range planning and no company can survive and grow without that.

Take something such as the amount to be spent on Promotion. Hubbard demans 14% of the Gross Income be spent of promo for ALL businesses. This figure may be proper for Scientology but when I was a Building Contractor, it was way, way too high. To generate about 1 million dollars of construction volume in a year, I only had to spend about $20,000 a year or only 2% of Gross, not 14%.

I tried to follow Hubbard's Org Board in my own business and spend more on promo. If business went over about 1.2 million a year in home remodels, we did not have the staff to deliver a good product on time. I was therefore placed in the position of bringing in sub par workmen and subcontractors to try and build more jobs than I was set up to handle. The result was customer complaints and the threat of lawsuits, etc.

Toady, did you ever run your own business using Hubbard's Org board? You don't have to tell me it doesn't work. I know through years of using it in my own business that it does not work for most businesses. I tried for many years to make it work, always thinking it was I who was in error. Finally, I realized that a Hubbard Org Board was not workable in my type of business.

BTW, another silly feature of the Hubbard business model is that companies must pay CASH for everything. Buying on credit is not allowed. In most business, you can't function unless some things are purchased on credit. The reason Hubbard's Orgs work though they deal only in CASH is because they are a Church and they are a monopoloy in the services they deliver. I regular business must compete with other similar businesses and they cannot Crush Reg and bankrupt their clients as a regular way of doing business as C of S does.
Lakey
 
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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Charlie Rush - Long time Sea Org Member

It has come to my attention that my old fellow Celibrity Centre Sea Org member, Charlie Rush, is back on chemotherapy.

Half a lifetime ago, from 1971 to 1973 Charlie and I were both Sea Org staff at CCLA. Charlie was an outstanding musician and performed frequently at CC. Later on, he became a member of the Apoll Stars band aboard the Apollo. Charlie is a great guy and was a lot of fun to work with.

The word is that he battled lung cancer several years ago and that two years ago it was believed that he beat the cancer and that it was in total remission. Now, the cancer has resurfaced and he has been place back on chemotherapy.

Please join me in intending Charlie to have a full and total recovery this time around in his battle with cancer.
Lakey
 
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