What's new

The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bali

Moving to Bali

By Judith Schneider | The Wall Street Journal – 22 hours ago

'How did you find Bali?" and "What do you do all day?" are the two most common questions asked of us. I am a retired lawyer from California; my husband is a vintner (plus many other things). We're both 68 years old, and most people can't wrap their minds around the change we made moving to Bali, Indonesia, seven years ago.

As we approached retirement age, we kept a watchful eye for those places that were exotic, less expensive (we lived in California for 35 years) and comfortable for Americans. A top priority was warmth. We both grew up in Connecticut, and I spent four winters in Buffalo, N.Y., so we were done with cold and snow. We visited all the warm climates we could find on the globe.

It was by chance that a client/friend asked me to visit her in Ubud, Bali. When I returned, I said to my husband, "This may be it."

What was "it"? A constant 85-degree temperature, stunning landscapes, and a warm and gracious people with smiles so perfect that seeing them every day is added sunshine. We moved to Bali in May 2005. Unless changes in our health necessitate a return to the U.S., we plan to spend the rest of our lives here.

Laid-Back Lifestyle

Bali, with a population of about four million, is one of about 17,500 islands that make up Indonesia. We settled in a suburb of Ubud, which is considered the cultural and religious center of Bali. In our village, women and men wear sarongs as daily clothing, children take off their shoes and walk barefoot when the school day ends, and the entire community goes to a sacred spring to retrieve holy water.

We leased a half acre of land for 20 years for $50,000. The property overlooks a river valley with a small waterfall on the far side. We built a "villa," as a single-family home in Bali is called. Our house has a swimming pool, furniture handmade to our specifications, and flowers everywhere. But in Balinese fashion, there is no front door. An opening, yes, but no door to shut.

The cost to build our house today (approximately 2,000 square feet) would be about $350,000. That said, a perfectly nice home could be built for half that amount. A reasonable monthly budget for home maintenance, transportation, food and entertainment is about $1,000.

When it comes to cooking—and cleaning and all of those other daily time-consumers—we hire Balinese help. Our cook, who is paid $75 a month, shops in the market at 6:30 a.m. and prepares all of our meals from scratch. It's very healthy. Sundays we are on our own, and that is our brunch and pizza day. (We wouldn't want to forget our roots.) A meal costs about $15 with no alcohol. Alcohol comes with a 300% customs duty. The local beer is good and keeps us looking younger.

What do we do? We are very involved with a children's home, ensuring there is always enough food and medical care. My husband assists in teaching spoken English to schoolchildren. Many people in the U.S. want to help the Balinese (Indonesia is a poor country), so we check out projects to start and then follow the progress and oversee funds.

As for relaxation, we let Bali happen. Schedules and appointments here are extremely fluid; thus, we wait to hear what's taking place and join in if we're so inclined. Poetry readings, yoga, spa visits, massages, a classic film being shown at a coffeehouse, even an invitation to a wedding: All tend to be spur-of-the-moment. It's very liberating to do whatever strikes your fancy.

There is an English-language library here, as well as an English-language Christian church service and a Rotary Club. If you choose to shop, there are two large U.S.-style supermarkets called Delta and Bingtang. Wi-Fi, Starbucks, FedEx and satellite television are all here for the expat. Or you can choose to ignore them.
Many expats have a car or motorbike. We do, as well, but we never get behind the wheel. Why? From our perspective, most Balinese don't appear to follow the rules of the road, so we prefer to hire people who are used to driving here. It's much safer. Speaking of which, strolling the streets of Ubud at night is the same as the daytime—safe.

Hitches and Quirks

If you're thinking about spending any extended time in Bali, paperwork comes into play. Most people start out trying to get a "retiree visa," which under current rules would allow you to stay indefinitely—but that can be costly and time-consuming. One alternative: a "social visa." This allows you to remain in country for as long as six months, at which point you reapply. For our part, we typically use that opportunity to head to the States to visit children and grandchildren.

No, Bali isn't perfect. Medical care, for the most part, is substandard when compared with the U.S.; thus, expats typically have evacuation insurance to a country chosen by their insurer, typically Singapore or Australia. (Fortunately, some excellent clinics are starting to appear.)

Other hitches and quirks: the long rainy season (November into early April); heavy traffic in the island's main city of Denpasar; the plane trip back and forth to the U.S. (a 17-hour flight); our heights and weights (we feel like Gulliver in a society where most people are about five feet tall and weigh about 100 pounds); and haircuts. Balinese are almost all long- and straight-haired. I have curly short hair, which baffles most hairdressers, so I go to a hotel for tourists for my needs. My husband has straight black hair. No problem. The cost for his haircut: 50 cents.
Most of these issues are minor, to say the least. Most days border on the breathtaking. Each evening, as we lie in our bed watching the stars, we experience the hush of Bali. A lilting melody drifts down the valley as an upriver village has a ceremony. The magic of this island lulls us to sleep.

Ms. Schneider can be reached at [email protected].
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This really does sum up the prevailing US attitude to the world rather neatly. It truly is an attitude that is no longer sustainable.

The only thing that is holding the USA together right now - please note: the ONLY thing - is the fact that the US dollar is the international reserve currency. Yet as we speak nations are doing all they can to quietly, without rocking the boat too much, get out of their dependency on dollars. When the US loses that status it will be Game Over. When that happens you won't be able to print money any more - no one will want it. And seeing the current complacency and disbelief among Americans that one does - well I reckon that end is inevitable and soon.

In my bedside drawer I have a 500 million Zimbabwe dollar note - and that was issued after they devalued by chopping off six zeroes from their currency, so it is really 500 trillion dollars. When it was issued you could buy a loaf of bread with it. It is printed on plain paper, a bit thicker than newsprint and comes with a 'use by' date printed on it. I hope I don't get to add a similar US dollar note to my collection. But when I do, I look forward to seeing Mick Wenlock tell the world to get fucked.

Not at all true - the USA has a vast manufacturing base, vast natural resources and a fairly energetic population - somehow you seem to have moved right past that. It also has one of the highest per capita food production systems in the world. So if things are going to go tits up around the globe - most of the rest of the world will be deeper in the toilet than the USA. You may wish to study some stuff here because what you are saying doesn't actually track with reality.

wow - did you manage to misunderstand almost everything I wrote?

Not bad going. Maybe you may want to read it again.

Most people in the uSA don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks. And having seen what passes for information in the rest of the world - neither do I.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bali

Moving to Bali

By Judith Schneider | The Wall Street Journal – 22 hours ago

<snip> ... A reasonable monthly budget for home maintenance, transportation, food and entertainment is about $1,000.

When it comes to cooking—and cleaning and all of those other daily time-consumers—we hire Balinese help. Our cook, who is paid $75 a month, shops in the market at 6:30 a.m. and prepares all of our meals from scratch. ... A meal costs about $15 with no alcohol... <snip.

So... the Balinese cook earns less than 10% of the cost of a "reasonable monthly budget" ... or looked at another way, the Balinese cook earns enough every month to cover the cost of 5 meals -- just over one meal per week...

No doubt this is why people in third-world countries just love love love retired Americans...
 
Hmmmm. Do we have a moderator with an agenda? or is just thin skinned?

Changed:

OP-EDS
Republicans Won’t Gain by Attacking Obama on Syria
By James Mann
June 11, 2012 6:30 PM EDT
Facebook Twitter Queue
removed because this should be linked - not quoted.

Unchanged:

Bali
Moving to Bali

By Judith Schneider | The Wall Street Journal – 22 hours ago

'How did you find Bali?" and "What do you do all day?" are the two most common questions asked of us. I am a retired lawyer from California; my husband is a vintner (plus many other things). We're both 68 years old, and most people can't wrap their minds around the change we made moving to Bali, Indonesia, seven years ago.

As we approached retirement age, we kept a watchful eye for those places that were exotic, less expensive (we lived in California for 35 years) and comfortable for Americans. A top priority was warmth. We both grew up in Connecticut, and I spent four winters in Buffalo, N.Y., so we were done with cold and snow. We visited all the warm climates we could find on the globe.

It was by chance that a client/friend asked me to visit her in Ubud, Bali. When I returned, I said to my husband, "This may be it."

What was "it"? A constant 85-degree temperature, stunning landscapes, and a warm and gracious people with smiles so perfect that seeing them every day is added sunshine. We moved to Bali in May 2005. Unless changes in our health necessitate a return to the U.S., we plan to spend the rest of our lives here.

Laid-Back Lifestyle

Bali, with a population of about four million, is one of about 17,500 islands that make up Indonesia. We settled in a suburb of Ubud, which is considered the cultural and religious center of Bali. In our village, women and men wear sarongs as daily clothing, children take off their shoes and walk barefoot when the school day ends, and the entire community goes to a sacred spring to retrieve holy water.

We leased a half acre of land for 20 years for $50,000. The property overlooks a river valley with a small waterfall on the far side. We built a "villa," as a single-family home in Bali is called. Our house has a swimming pool, furniture handmade to our specifications, and flowers everywhere. But in Balinese fashion, there is no front door. An opening, yes, but no door to shut.

The cost to build our house today (approximately 2,000 square feet) would be about $350,000. That said, a perfectly nice home could be built for half that amount. A reasonable monthly budget for home maintenance, transportation, food and entertainment is about $1,000.

When it comes to cooking—and cleaning and all of those other daily time-consumers—we hire Balinese help. Our cook, who is paid $75 a month, shops in the market at 6:30 a.m. and prepares all of our meals from scratch. It's very healthy. Sundays we are on our own, and that is our brunch and pizza day. (We wouldn't want to forget our roots.) A meal costs about $15 with no alcohol. Alcohol comes with a 300% customs duty. The local beer is good and keeps us looking younger.

What do we do? We are very involved with a children's home, ensuring there is always enough food and medical care. My husband assists in teaching spoken English to schoolchildren. Many people in the U.S. want to help the Balinese (Indonesia is a poor country), so we check out projects to start and then follow the progress and oversee funds.

As for relaxation, we let Bali happen. Schedules and appointments here are extremely fluid; thus, we wait to hear what's taking place and join in if we're so inclined. Poetry readings, yoga, spa visits, massages, a classic film being shown at a coffeehouse, even an invitation to a wedding: All tend to be spur-of-the-moment. It's very liberating to do whatever strikes your fancy.

There is an English-language library here, as well as an English-language Christian church service and a Rotary Club. If you choose to shop, there are two large U.S.-style supermarkets called Delta and Bingtang. Wi-Fi, Starbucks, FedEx and satellite television are all here for the expat. Or you can choose to ignore them.
Many expats have a car or motorbike. We do, as well, but we never get behind the wheel. Why? From our perspective, most Balinese don't appear to follow the rules of the road, so we prefer to hire people who are used to driving here. It's much safer. Speaking of which, strolling the streets of Ubud at night is the same as the daytime—safe.

Hitches and Quirks

If you're thinking about spending any extended time in Bali, paperwork comes into play. Most people start out trying to get a "retiree visa," which under current rules would allow you to stay indefinitely—but that can be costly and time-consuming. One alternative: a "social visa." This allows you to remain in country for as long as six months, at which point you reapply. For our part, we typically use that opportunity to head to the States to visit children and grandchildren.

No, Bali isn't perfect. Medical care, for the most part, is substandard when compared with the U.S.; thus, expats typically have evacuation insurance to a country chosen by their insurer, typically Singapore or Australia. (Fortunately, some excellent clinics are starting to appear.)

Other hitches and quirks: the long rainy season (November into early April); heavy traffic in the island's main city of Denpasar; the plane trip back and forth to the U.S. (a 17-hour flight); our heights and weights (we feel like Gulliver in a society where most people are about five feet tall and weigh about 100 pounds); and haircuts. Balinese are almost all long- and straight-haired. I have curly short hair, which baffles most hairdressers, so I go to a hotel for tourists for my needs. My husband has straight black hair. No problem. The cost for his haircut: 50 cents.
Most of these issues are minor, to say the least. Most days border on the breathtaking. Each evening, as we lie in our bed watching the stars, we experience the hush of Bali. A lilting melody drifts down the valley as an upriver village has a ceremony. The magic of this island lulls us to sleep.

Ms. Schneider can be reached at [email protected].



MAJOR TEXT by me:

(Go ahead fiukyouheadwe, edit this)

WTF?

Starting with I am a libertarian

i am not a democrat or republican.

I'm 61 years old. When I was 13, I walked precincts for Barry Goldwater. My parents were for Rocky (Nelson Rockefeller).

So you fuck head Republican robots can take a flying fuck at the moon.

I was conservative before you thought about politics.

Obama's, not unlike Kennedy's, approach to international relations, is to be intelligent. Something Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld, never considered.

I getb it. You censored my copying an article that was not good cheer about Republiucans, but you left intact a nother copy paste about living in Bali for expats.

Since i don't give a fuck if I get bennaaed for life from ESMB or for a week or any time, try looking at the word "hypocrite."

I got it, you're for beating the evil democrats, and you don't give a flying fuck about people living in Bali.

It isn't about playing by the rules. It is about using the rules to suppress thought.

For life is like cricket - we play by the rules -
But the secret which few people know,
Which keep men of class well apart from the fools
Is to think up the rules as you go.
Do-de-oh-do.

- "The Roar of there Greasepaint, The Smell of the Crowd"

Anthony Newley, lyricist

[video=youtube;FwbAJm4k4Co]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwbAJm4k4Co[/video]
 
Re: Bali

So... the Balinese cook earns less than 10% of the cost of a "reasonable monthly budget" ... or looked at another way, the Balinese cook earns enough every month to cover the cost of 5 meals -- just over one meal per week...

No doubt this is why people in third-world countries just love love love retired Americans...

having cooked for myself and family for 40+ years, i don't think the job of cook is a 40 hour a week job. i can whip up gourmet food fit for a food critic in a half hour. Try rolling that into your equation.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Bali

having cooked for myself and family for 40+ years, i don't think the job of cook is a 40 hour a week job. i can whip up gourmet food fit for a food critic in a half hour. Try rolling that into your equation.

When you say the cook is paid $75 a month, I visualized a live in cook and thought that was way too low, similar to what Olska was thinking. Could you clarify how that works?

If it was a live in type job, then the $75 probably would also be augmented by free room and board as well so that would add considerably to the value of the job. What about food preparation? Would the cook be responsible to go to the market regularly and buy the food as well as do the cooking? Who does the clean up?

If the cook could rise early and whip up breakfast and perhaps make lunch in advance and leave it for the people in the refrigerator and then go about his/her business for the entire day and then return to prepare the evening meal, then be off for the entire night, maybe it would be an okay job IF room and board is included. Even there, $75 a week would make more sense than $75 a month.

If room and board is not included, it doesn't seem workable unless the person has another full time job somewhere else because the person would have to pay rent elsewhere and regularly pay for transportation to and from home to the cooking job.

Sorry, its no big deal one way or the other. A little clarification would help but is not really necessary. The other parts of your post are much more interesting and important!

Ah yes, Bali. Who can forget that beautiful song in the 1949 musical, South Pacific:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=815O6Qj2Nx8

Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The future isn't fixed. All there is is an almost infinite number of possible futures - "no fate but what we make".



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VawhGe79Emw

Thanks Smila for this provocative post. Have you experienced anything personally to aid you in getting rid of this background "noise"? Do you think it serves a purpose or that we would be better off without it?

I put up a post about things quieting down in my own space, not that long ago (4-5 months). Several people commented, including an informative post by Roger.

Not to focus the discussion on myself but my "background noise", as I call it, was much lower than that of my ex wife. This was a contributing factor to our breakup.

She was a bundle of nerves, worrying about our finances, worrying about the kids, worrying about her business. There was incessant worrying and she was having a lot of trouble sleeping night after night.

Being of French descent, she called me too "laissez-faire". She was saying that I should be worried more than I am and that it was inappropriate to be calm in the face of all these potential calamities. I would argue back that to go into the "worrying mode" only makes things worse. You get insufficient sleep, your mind is darting all over the place and the outcome is that you make mistakes and things get worse.

A universal lesson from this would be that spouses or potential spouses should not have widely varying degrees of this "background noise". If they do, it will interfere with the success of the marriage. Any comments, Smila?
Lakey
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thanks Smila for this provocative post. Have you experienced anything personally to aid you in getting rid of this background "noise"? Do you think it serves a purpose or that we would be better off without it?

My tool of choice for investigating the mind is sensory deprivation/flotation tank work. This means no (significant) sensory input. No gravity. No sound. Nothing to see. Nothing to hear. Nothing to feel. The liquid that is in contact with the body is at skin temperature, so the situation is utterly unlike anything else. One of the first things that become apparent is that generally speaking, there is a constant running commentary provided by the mind on sensory input. That's part of the 'background noise' you speak of. When that stops - which it does, it's possible to go into finer and finer levels of thought, and not just 'exteriorise' from the body, but to completely transcend it for a while, and beyond that to transcend the mind, and then just be. That is a state of utter peace, liveliness, vitality, curiosity and playfullness, but not tied to anything.

IMO, the best way to heal the mind is to transcend it entirely. When you come back to it, you can reprogram it. It's a bit like fixing a machine - a printing press, shall we say. To perform maintenance on it, you have to switch it off. In my experience, to do really really deep work on the mind, it has to be switched off while you work on it. For superficial housekeeping, like problem solving, or exploring attitudes, it can be left running.

What people think about as being their 'self' is actually the least interesting and most trivial part of us. It's the part which can describe itself - it's thoughts, opinions, beliefs and ideas, it's perceptions, it's memory, it's use of language - it's 'identity.'

I have found out (for myself) that all the above is the thinnest imaginable surface layer of an infinitely deep ocean, metaphorically speaking, that has different laws, inhabitants, worlds, logic, modes, and means of perception and meaning, at different depths. The deeper you go, the more of your 'self' you have to leave behind, until eventually you leave it all behind, and no longer exist as anything remotely similar to anything you thought you were at the suface level.

If and when you come back to the surface, you quickly find that it is actually completely impossible to describe what you saw in the deeper places via the use of a slightly upgraded monkey brain and a monkey's mouth. Best not to even try.

'Exteriorisation' is just an interesting party trick for surface dwellers. Even if you do manage to pop your consciousness out of your body for a while, you're still on the surface. If you don't believe me, ask an Elf.

302576_babf42851467f6c35358e07ac70c14ba_large.jpg




I put up a post about things quieting down in my own space, not that long ago (4-5 months). Several people commented, including an informative post by Roger.

A lot of people's background noise is actually sub-vocalisation, which is a mind/body interaction. This is so highly significant, that it is amazing to me that it's not given major attention in philosophy and psychology.

"Subvocalization, or silent speech, is defined as the internal speech made when reading a word, thus allowing the reader to imagine the sound of the word as it is read.[1] This is a natural process when reading and helps to reduce cognitive load, and it helps the mind to access meanings to enable it to comprehend and remember what is read.[2] Although some people associate subvocalization with moving one's lips, the actual term refers primarily to the movement of muscles associated with speaking, not the literal moving of lips. Most subvocalization is undetectable (without the aid of machines) even by the person doing the subvocalizing[2]." Emphasis mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocalization


Not to focus the discussion on myself but my "background noise", as I call it, was much lower than that of my ex wife. This was a contributing factor to our breakup.

Understood.

She was a bundle of nerves, worrying about our finances, worrying about the kids, worrying about her business. There was incessant worrying and she was having a lot of trouble sleeping night after night.

That's really a health issue IMO, of the group of Anxiety Disorders.Too high a basal arousal level in the nervous system. It also sounds like she was experiencing a degree of Hypervigilance, which is fairly common in moderate to severe anxiety states.

"
Hypervigilance is an enhanced state of sensory sensitivity accompanied by an exaggerated intensity of behaviors whose purpose is to detect threats. Hypervigilance is also accompanied by a state of increased anxiety which can cause exhaustion. Other symptoms include: abnormally increased arousal, a high responsiveness to stimuli, and a constant scanning of the environment for threats.[1][2] Hypervigilance can be a symptom of posttraumatic stress disorder[3] and various types of anxiety disorder. It is distinguished from paranoia. Paranoid states, such as those in schizophrenia, can seem superficially similar, but are characteristically different."


Being of French descent, she called me too "laissez-faire". She was saying that I should be worried more than I am and that it was inappropriate to be calm in the face of all these potential calamities. I would argue back that to go into the "worrying mode" only makes things worse. You get insufficient sleep, your mind is darting all over the place and the outcome is that you make mistakes and things get worse.

You were right - worrying doesn't help, but it seems that she was not able to modulate/moderate it, so outside help, in the form of psychological and physical therapy is needed, if the person is to re-learn how to modulate/moderate their emotions. Interestingly, the ability to modulate one's emotions is a learned behaviour. Babies can't modulate their emotions - when they start crying, they literally don't know how to stop. They learn it from the way their parents treat them. It can be called 'self-soothing'. Like any ability, it can be developed and improved.

As well as the idea of 'background noise' the factor of the level of physiological excitation or arousal level of the whole mind/body *Unity* has to be looked at. Fearful people have very aroused bodies and burn energy at a tremendous rate.

So I would say that rather than being psychological, her unease is largely physiological, but obviously the two are entangled.

She probably has some unhealed trauma.

A universal lesson from this would be that spouses or potential spouses should not have widely varying degrees of this "background noise". If they do, it will interfere with the success of the marriage. Any comments, Smila?

I would rather say that she had a health issue which the two of you were unable to resolve, and knowing you to be a compassionate and humane individual, I'm sure you tried.

Lakey


Sorry if that wall of text came over as being a bit blunt, but you asked some powerful questions, so I responded in kind. Also, please note that my beliefs apply fully only in my own sphere of existence :omg:
 
Re: Bali

When you say the cook is paid $75 a month, I visualized a live in cook and thought that was way too low, similar to what Olska was thinking. Could you clarify how that works?

If it was a live in type job, then the $75 probably would also be augmented by free room and board as well so that would add considerably to the value of the job. What about food preparation? Would the cook be responsible to go to the market regularly and buy the food as well as do the cooking? Who does the clean up?

If the cook could rise early and whip up breakfast and perhaps make lunch in advance and leave it for the people in the refrigerator and then go about his/her business for the entire day and then return to prepare the evening meal, then be off for the entire night, maybe it would be an okay job IF room and board is included. Even there, $75 a week would make more sense than $75 a month.

If room and board is not included, it doesn't seem workable unless the person has another full time job somewhere else because the person would have to pay rent elsewhere and regularly pay for transportation to and from home to the cooking job.

Sorry, its no big deal one way or the other. A little clarification would help but is not really necessary. The other parts of your post are much more interesting and important!

Ah yes, Bali. Who can forget that beautiful song in the 1949 musical, South Pacific:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=815O6Qj2Nx8

Lakey

pay, rent, food, and the value of money and labor are highly variable across the globe.

we do live in a global economy.

We have a garage, that I converted to living quarters a decade ago. It is 600 square feet with wifi, cable, garbage disposer, microwave, stove, fridge with ice and water, jacuzzi bath, rose and vegetable gardens, a small orchard, and a pleasant woody view. We rent it for $1,700. a month. Usually to Stanford students, but an occasional peripatetic professional like a rocket scientist.

The house across the street we just rented for $9,500. It is four bedrooms and baths with a pool. Stanford MBA students claimed it.

Our daughter lives in Haiti. She has armed guards. $20. goes a long way in Haiti if you're poor.

The reason I posted the Bali article is because I'm keenly aware of the fact that many of the readers and contributors on ESMB are getting old, and living on a small, perhaps non existent pension.

We have a tenant that has had his lifestyle so pinched, that we a afraid he may commit suicide.

I know of another 60+er, who has come down from a $2.5M house to a $500. a month room.

I've met my share of ESMBers, who are homeless.

perhaps Bali or some city in Mexico or South America might be a good fit for someone with a fixed income.

Instead of critiquing the pay a Balinese might work for, consider whether it is better to be Balinese and unemployed or working for $75 a month.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Not at all true - the USA has a vast manufacturing base, vast natural resources and a fairly energetic population - somehow you seem to have moved right past that. It also has one of the highest per capita food production systems in the world. So if things are going to go tits up around the globe - most of the rest of the world will be deeper in the toilet than the USA. You may wish to study some stuff here because what you are saying doesn't actually track with reality.

wow - did you manage to misunderstand almost everything I wrote?

Not bad going. Maybe you may want to read it again.

Most people in the uSA don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks. And having seen what passes for information in the rest of the world - neither do I.

America also has one very important thing over the rest of the world. We are political mature.

Now by that I don't mean how politicians and voters behave at election time.

And I don't mean the lack of basic civility in our pollitical discourses.

What I am talking about is that we know we are one country. And we want to be one country.

The purpose of the Constitution was to make a more perfect union.

The U.S Constitution was not written because the Founding Fathers wanted a weak Federal Government. They wanted a strong Federal government. That is why they met.

The Articles of Confederation established a weak central government. And the Constitution was written to fix the weakness of that government.

When war nearly broke out between Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia over the Chesapeake Bay, the intelligent folks new it was time to have a strong Federal Government instead of a confederation.

James Madison (who is called the Father of the Constitution) wrote to Thomas Jefferson who was in Paris as the confederation's plenipotentiary.

Madison wanted Jefferson's advice.

Jefferson sent Madison fifty different history books all on republics of the past. Jefferson told him to read the books and he would know what to do.

Madison, being a classically educated man like Jefferson, read all the books in their original Greek, Latin, and French.

He made extesive notes on each republic, listing what it did right and what it did wrong.

He used these notes during the Constitutional Convention.

When one reads his notes one learns why the Constitution permits certain things and forbids others.

For example, the Constitution forbids any ex-post-facto laws. This is because in the ancient Roman Republic, the Grachi instituted an ex-post- facto law regarding land reform which led to the civil war that ended the republic and resulted in an empire with an emperor.

His notes about the other republics in history was a laundry list of do's and don't's.

This is the reasoning behind most of the structure of the Constitution.

These lessons of the past moderate by current situations and considerations and interests of the delegates is why the original Consitution is the way that it is.

The U.S. Constitution was a product of hard work, genius, leadership and talent. Kind of like the Sistne Chapel.

But its goal was a strong Federal Government restrained by built in checks-and-balances.

Democracy ws a dirty word back then. The Founders were more impressed with ancient Sparta, which was a republic, and frowned upon ancient Athens which was a democracy.

The Athenian democracy voted to kill Socrates. And they voted to put Alcibiates back in charge of their military forces after he already had betrayed Athens to its enemies.

Sparta had a republic with the elderly aristocratic legislators picking the two main kings (president's so to speak.)

And all free men served in the military.

They had a perfect balance of Kings, aristocrats, free yeoman, and slaves.

And in the war between Athens and Sparta, Sparta won.

It was a republic.

That's what the founding fathers worked to established.

Our constitution isn't being watered down; Quite the opposite.

More people are included in today than was original thought possible.

It is not that Jefferson and Adams and Madison did not want to end slavery, they just didn;t know how.

But they left a Federal Government in place that would eventually prevail and create a more perfect union.

Today corporations control politics. But they always have.

In the late 1890s more than half of the Supreme Court Justices were appointed straight from their jobs as railroad attorneys.

The notorious Supreme Court decision in the Plessy v. Ferguson case was not decide just because of racism; it was decided based partially on what was best for railroad business.

My whole point is that despite the corruption, which is always present, and despite the divisiveness in political discourse, Americans still beleive we are one country. And we are.

Americans love our flag. Americans from Maine to Hawaii and Alaska to Florida will fight and die for that flag.

The European Union has a flag, too.

But I don't think that the average Frenchman or Greek or Italian or Brit will fight and die for it.

American is mature enough to realize and maintine that we are one country, from Atlantic to pacific.

The rest is just details.

E Pluribus Unum!


The Anabaptist Jacques

(There will be a test on Friday)
 
M

Moderator 2

Guest
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Carmello,

I tried to send the below as a PM but your mail box is full.

Please don't post walls of copyrighted text.

Put a snippet up and a link to the actual article.

If you can, please provide me with the links to the articles you posted and I'll edit your posts and add the links in line with our legal obligations.

M2
 

RogerB

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Carmello,

I tried to send the below as a PM but your mail box is full.

Please don't post walls of copyrighted text.

Put a snippet up and a link to the actual article.

If you can, please provide me with the links to the articles you posted and I'll edit your posts and add the links in line with our legal obligations.

M2

Correct . . . the FAQ's/rules mentions avoidance of a) long posts and, b) copyrighted materials.

It also mentions respect for the Mods . . .


R
 

RogerB

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

America also has one very important thing over the rest of the world. We are political mature.

Now by that I don't mean how politicians and voters behave at election time.

And I don't mean the lack of basic civility in our pollitical discourses.

What I am talking about is that we know we are one country. And we want to be one country.

The purpose of the Constitution was to make a more perfect union.

The U.S Constitution was not written because the Founding Fathers wanted a weak Federal Government. They wanted a strong Federal government. That is why they met.

The Articles of Confederation established a weak central government. And the Constitution was written to fix the weakness of that government.

When war nearly broke out between Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia over the Chesapeake Bay, the intelligent folks new it was time to have a strong Federal Government instead of a confederation.

James Madison (who is called the Father of the Constitution) wrote to Thomas Jefferson who was in Paris as the confederation's plenipotentiary.

Madison wanted Jefferson's advice.

Jefferson sent Madison fifty different history books all on republics of the past. Jefferson told him to read the books and he would know what to do.

Madison, being a classically educated man like Jefferson, read all the books in their original Greek, Latin, and French.

He made extesive notes on each republic, listing what it did right and what it did wrong.

He used these notes during the Constitutional Convention.

When one reads his notes one learns why the Constitution permits certain things and forbids others.

For example, the Constitution forbids any ex-post-facto laws. This is because in the ancient Roman Republic, the Grachi instituted an ex-post- facto law regarding land reform which led to the civil war that ended the republic and resulted in an empire with an emperor.

His notes about the other republics in history was a laundry list of do's and don't's.

This is the reasoning behind most of the structure of the Constitution.

These lessons of the past moderate by current situations and considerations and interests of the delegates is why the original Consitution is the way that it is.

The U.S. Constitution was a product of hard work, genius, leadership and talent. Kind of like the Sistne Chapel.

But its goal was a strong Federal Government restrained by built in checks-and-balances.

Democracy ws a dirty word back then. The Founders were more impressed with ancient Sparta, which was a republic, and frowned upon ancient Athens which was a democracy.

The Athenian democracy voted to kill Socrates. And they voted to put Alcibiates back in charge of their military forces after he already had betrayed Athens to its enemies.

Sparta had a republic with the elderly aristocratic legislators picking the two main kings (president's so to speak.)

And all free men served in the military.

They had a perfect balance of Kings, aristocrats, free yeoman, and slaves.

And in the war between Athens and Sparta, Sparta won.

It was a republic.

That's what the founding fathers worked to established.

Our constitution isn't being watered down; Quite the opposite.

More people are included in today than was original thought possible.

It is not that Jefferson and Adams and Madison did not want to end slavery, they just didn;t know how.

But they left a Federal Government in place that would eventually prevail and create a more perfect union.

Today corporations control politics. But they always have.

In the late 1890s more than half of the Supreme Court Justices were appointed straight from their jobs as railroad attorneys.

The notorious Supreme Court decision in the Plessy v. Ferguson case was not decide just because of racism; it was decided based partially on what was best for railroad business.

My whole point is that despite the corruption, which is always present, and despite the divisiveness in political discourse, Americans still beleive we are one country. And we are.

Americans love our flag. Americans from Maine to Hawaii and Alaska to Florida will fight and die for that flag.

The European Union has a flag, too.

But I don't think that the average Frenchman or Greek or Italian or Brit will fight and die for it.

American is mature enough to realize and maintine that we are one country, from Atlantic to pacific.

The rest is just details.

E Pluribus Unum!


The Anabaptist Jacques

(There will be a test on Friday)

TAJ,

That is a stellar, spectacular post. Quite wonderful.

R
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

America also has one very important thing over the rest of the world. We are political mature.

Now by that I don't mean how politicians and voters behave at election time.

And I don't mean the lack of basic civility in our pollitical discourses.

What I am talking about is that we know we are one country. And we want to be one country.

The purpose of the Constitution was to make a more perfect union.

The U.S Constitution was not written because the Founding Fathers wanted a weak Federal Government. They wanted a strong Federal government. That is why they met.

The Articles of Confederation established a weak central government. And the Constitution was written to fix the weakness of that government.

When war nearly broke out between Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia over the Chesapeake Bay, the intelligent folks new it was time to have a strong Federal Government instead of a confederation.

James Madison (who is called the Father of the Constitution) wrote to Thomas Jefferson who was in Paris as the confederation's plenipotentiary.

Madison wanted Jefferson's advice.

Jefferson sent Madison fifty different history books all on republics of the past. Jefferson told him to read the books and he would know what to do.

Madison, being a classically educated man like Jefferson, read all the books in their original Greek, Latin, and French.

He made extesive notes on each republic, listing what it did right and what it did wrong.

He used these notes during the Constitutional Convention.

When one reads his notes one learns why the Constitution permits certain things and forbids others.

For example, the Constitution forbids any ex-post-facto laws. This is because in the ancient Roman Republic, the Grachi instituted an ex-post- facto law regarding land reform which led to the civil war that ended the republic and resulted in an empire with an emperor.

His notes about the other republics in history was a laundry list of do's and don't's.

This is the reasoning behind most of the structure of the Constitution.

These lessons of the past moderate by current situations and considerations and interests of the delegates is why the original Consitution is the way that it is.

The U.S. Constitution was a product of hard work, genius, leadership and talent. Kind of like the Sistne Chapel.

But its goal was a strong Federal Government restrained by built in checks-and-balances.

Democracy ws a dirty word back then. The Founders were more impressed with ancient Sparta, which was a republic, and frowned upon ancient Athens which was a democracy.

The Athenian democracy voted to kill Socrates. And they voted to put Alcibiates back in charge of their military forces after he already had betrayed Athens to its enemies.

Sparta had a republic with the elderly aristocratic legislators picking the two main kings (president's so to speak.)

And all free men served in the military.

They had a perfect balance of Kings, aristocrats, free yeoman, and slaves.

And in the war between Athens and Sparta, Sparta won.

It was a republic.

That's what the founding fathers worked to established.

Our constitution isn't being watered down; Quite the opposite.

More people are included in today than was original thought possible.

It is not that Jefferson and Adams and Madison did not want to end slavery, they just didn;t know how.

But they left a Federal Government in place that would eventually prevail and create a more perfect union.

Today corporations control politics. But they always have.

In the late 1890s more than half of the Supreme Court Justices were appointed straight from their jobs as railroad attorneys.

The notorious Supreme Court decision in the Plessy v. Ferguson case was not decide just because of racism; it was decided based partially on what was best for railroad business.

My whole point is that despite the corruption, which is always present, and despite the divisiveness in political discourse, Americans still beleive we are one country. And we are.

Americans love our flag. Americans from Maine to Hawaii and Alaska to Florida will fight and die for that flag.

The European Union has a flag, too.

But I don't think that the average Frenchman or Greek or Italian or Brit will fight and die for it.

American is mature enough to realize and maintine that we are one country, from Atlantic to pacific.

The rest is just details.

E Pluribus Unum!


The Anabaptist Jacques

(There will be a test on Friday)

an exceptional posting TAJ
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Jefferson sent Madison fifty different history books all on republics of the past. Jefferson told him to read the books and he would know what to do.

Madison, being a classically educated man like Jefferson, read all the books in their original Greek, Latin, and French.


He made extesive notes on each republic, listing what it did right and what it did wrong.


He used these notes during the Constitutional Convention.


When one reads his notes one learns why the Constitution permits certain things and forbids others.


For example, the Constitution forbids any ex-post-facto laws. This is because in the ancient Roman Republic, the Grachi instituted an ex-post- facto law regarding land reform which led to the civil war that ended the republic and resulted in an empire with an emperor.


His notes about the other republics in history was a laundry list of do's and don't's.


This is the reasoning behind most of the structure of the Constitution.

I concur that this was an excellent post. I especially liked what I snipped above because it contained some details that I didn't know before. The Constitution is a wonder to behold, IMO. And Madison and Jefferson will always be National Treasures.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Correct . . . the FAQ's/rules mentions avoidance of a) long posts and, b) copyrighted materials.

It also mentions respect for the Mods . . .


R

the rules have been there for years.
I've broken them for years
obviously the winds have changed
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

the rules have been there for years.
I've broken them for years
obviously the winds have changed


Tony Ortega had a hissy fit when I posted his VV article here in full and was very, very nasty about it. So I'm sure the mods are being very careful now.

Don't take it personally, Carm.

It's not you.

It's me. :p
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Tony Ortega had a hissy fit when I posted his VV article here in full and was very, very nasty about it. So I'm sure the mods are being very careful now.

Don't take it personally, Carm.

It's not you.

It's me. :p

Yes Lulu belle, you are the reason we cannot have nice things :biggrin:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top