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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And now after 15,259 posts, we get to see what this thread is really about :omg:

ummm, not completely

Ethics:

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Tech (Give me that hand):

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Admin:

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FULL OT 8:

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Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You know, of all the exposes and whatevers that have been written about the CofS over the years, it is this picture above of "Way to Happiness" that more than any other epitomizes the Church of Scientology and all of its its failures. This one picture is worth not a thousand words, but a trillion zillion.

I don't know who the guys in the picture are or which org this is, but this is where they get immortalized. May they live forever in the halls of failure!
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bali

Nope, never been the "working poor."

Have lost everything a time or two.

No regrets.

i do think that hard work, persistence, personal education, and following a dream is the way to go.

In the pack of footnotes I posted, in your referenced post, there were articles of the current political leadership of Haiti going to areas in Haiti that haven't been visited by the ruling politicians in thirty years. The president of Haiti is a rock star (literally). The theme song for my daughter's program, "Ti Manman Cherie" was written and sung by someone from one of these ghettos. Because of his brilliance, he is now represented by the president's own manager.

People, whether high or low on the totem pole of life are living their dreams.

I've been in the position to sleep in my truck for months on end. Not a big deal. I'm not stupid, not crippled, not mentally "off" - there just isn't too deep a rock bottom for me.

in Haiti, people eat rocks and mud to stave off hunger. Disease is wildly present. I'm so glad to hear I'm not evil, just ignorant. Within a couple of months, I'll be in Haiti building houses for people, very much worse off than I've ever been.

Since you seem to be judging me for my life, what exactly have you done for others?

I have children, step children, and grandchildren, who are hard working, hard playing members of the world community.

I never had the smarts to get stuck in the Co$, just took what I wanted (Clear, briefing course and friendships) that have stood me well over the decades. I was repairing pumps, tractors trucks, and cars, picking cherries, apricots, and walnuts shortly after learning to walk, collecting eggs, putting in sewer lines, water, electrical, and cutting up beef, fish, chicken, venison, and pork, repairing fences and going to school through my childhood. I had opportunities that few would even avail themselves of, if they were given the opportunity.

I have friends, who crawled through sewers to get to the USA, who risked their lives, quite literally, to be here. Just out of curiosity, do you even know an illegal alien? Are you yourself, homeless? What is your story? that you can judge me by?

Do you have a job? Usually someone pointing a finger has several pointing back at themselves.

Don't be so quick to write me off because I post some gnarly questions, ok?

It is not necessarily "judgmental" to get people to think, to look at things (including their personal values and strongly held beliefs) differently, and thus to possibly seek new solutions and ways of looking at some of the economic problems and conditions that plague our world, whether or not you are personally affected by those.

You wrote

People, whether high or low on the totem pole of life are living their dreams.

What a revelation it is to know that the people in Haiti about whom you wrote

in Haiti, people eat rocks and mud to stave off hunger. Disease is wildly present.

are "living their dreams."

The problems associated with poverty will never be alleviated until the underlying causes of that poverty are identified and addressed. Of course, if poverty is "their dream" then perhaps we should leave the poor alone to enjoy it...

There are those in this world who benefit from the exploitation (and resulting poverty) of others and who excuse this by promoting the idea that the "poor" are poor because they are lazy, or because they choose to be poor, or because they're "happy" to have so much less than the (relatively) "rich."

I believe that to be a myth forwarded by people -- including many who don't realize it -- who have a vested interest in making sure others have less, so they can have more, of the world's available resources and man-made comforts. Thus we have the "totem pole" you mentioned...

Charity is admirable, it can help to alleviate the immediate discomforts of poverty -- hunger, lack of shelter, disease, and so forth -- it doesn't solve the underlying causes.

As to your personal questions...

I'm not inclined to whine about my misfortunes, such as they have been, nor to brag on my accomplishments, such that they are, but here are SOME answers:

I've never been homeless; I've never been hungry; I'm not homeless or hungry now

I no longer "have a job;" thanks to a small pension from an old job plus USA Social Security benefits that I paid into back when I was employed, I'm "retired"; you are free to speculate as much a you like on the size of my income and whether or not I still work and if I do, at what

I know lots of people (some working and some "retired") who live reasonably comfortable lives in the USA, on an income of around $1,000 per month --- the amount of money that in Bali, as you reported, buys what they would consider luxury. None of them have personal cooks or any other kind of servant in their employ, nor granite counter tops in their kitchens, nor any number of other material "things" many people in the USA seem to think are essential to life

I know quite a few immigrants and "illegal aliens" -- in fact, for several years I lived in a community populated almost entirely by illegals from Mexico and other countries south of the USofA; some had been here for many years, owned property, had businesses; some were more newly arrived. Most were fine, hard-working, pleasant people; a few weren't -- you'd find that in any community, I think. One lady I knew walked all the way from Guatemala in order to come here to live and work; I'm sure she wasn't the only one, I just happened to know that little piece of her story.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bali

*An acceptable standard of living* means to me a spacious, well-heated/air-conditioned, well maintained home, with a garden, all the amenities, in-home recreation space and requirements, such as a games or art room, maybe a piano or other musical instruments, a healthy and enjoyable diet based around organic foods, momey to spend on ones own education, all healthcare facilities, books, music, a vehicle of some kind (doesn't have to be fancy) decent clothes, outside entertainments, holidays and days out, enough income for the education of any children, enough income to save for for an enjoyable and secure retirement. And last but not least, enough income to be able to give generously to charity.

As an aside, everybody in our family gives a minimum 10% of their income to charity, and we all started doing this at the age of 7, out of our not-very-big pocketmoney allowances. We have a family meeting once a year to choose which charities we will support in the coming year. Charity is very important to us.

(It is interesting to me that the hebrew word for a righteous (person) Tzadik, comes from the same root as the hebrew word for charity,Tzedekah. The root word is Tzedek, meaning fairness and justice.)

So I think we treat our cook well. Am I right? If not, why not?

I think you treat your cook well.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Bali

So who would you trust with your comfort, safety, and well-being more? A competent bus driver? or a rich lawyer?

For legal matters, a rich lawyer but for transportation matters a competent driver. Part of selecting a lawyer is to get and check out the lawyer's references. The more thorough the vetting process, the safer.

And since you've already said the "lawyers should get more," how much more? 5 times more? 10 times more? 100 times more? 1000 times more? or "no limit" more?

Please see my remarks below. Up here, I will say no to "no limit" more.

Look at it from the other direction -- start with the lawyers' earnings (pick a number) -- should the bus driver get half that? one fourth? one tenth? one one-hundredth? one thousandth? or "no limit" on how low you can go and still get someone willing to drive the bus to keep from starving?

I would not waste my time trying to figure out what these ratios might be. It is a pointless task and there is no value to any figure which any one person might arrive at. I illustrate below how a free market supplies the figure you are asking me to guess at. If the value comes out too low to keep from starving, then society has created a minimum federal wage law which keeps a person from starvation. Any product or service which is truly desired by a society will always be able to command a wage above the starvation level. If people have to have something, say toilet paper, then there is a market for it and where there is a market, an enterprising worker who is willing to provide a decent product at a fair price will never starve. If a product was once desired but is no longer desired, such a film photography, then people better leave that field or they will starve.

Other questions:
are some people simply "destined" to be bus drivers, while others are "destined" to be lawyers?

I don't believe people are "destined" for certain jobs. Occasionally there is an exception. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was destined to be a musician, that is for sure! However, had he had a different father, he probably would have ended up doing something else - who is to say. Some people have all the tools to succeed at certain careers but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are destined for that career. Everyone of sound mind and body has some areas of talent and they will lead happier lives if they are able to pursue those fields which they enjoy rather than be forced to do things they don't really enjoy.

what if you really hate driving buses, and it's not what you are naturally good at and it's certainly not your "dream", but that's the only job or opportunity available, and you have responsibilities and the other choice is to be unemployed and entirely without funds -- should you take the job? or do... what?

The above scenario is possible. A person should minimize their responsibilities until they are gainfully employed. What you don't want to do is have a lot of kids first and then go to work because you have to. That is a recipe for disaster. If it came down to doing that work or your kids would starve, I would say the person must take the job. In America for the last 220 years or so, opportunity always existed for people such as this to work their way out of this trap and achieve success in a job they actually liked. Now, I fear those days may be coming to an end.

Well, I already answered the 1st question above so let's start with the second question.
SUPPLY AND DEMAND Supply and demand is a big factor in establishing prices and this brings up the amount of training which is required.

Being admitted to law school takes more study than qualifying to learn to drive a bus and then several years are spent in law school leading to graduation and a law degree. Now the lawyer is ready to practice law. The law student had to pay tens of thousand of dollars for his education and likely has incurred a large student debt. Meanwhile, the lawyer has not on the job practical experience and now has to pick up experiences by successfully handling actual cases. Of course, as he successfully gains experience, he generates satisfied clients and his value increases through word of mouth.

Meanwhile the bus driver finished his training years earlier. Perhaps the training took a week or so and the driver paid a few hundred dollars for the training. NOTE: The bus driver has two advantage in that for 3 years, he has already been driving and earning money while the law student is going to school and also in that he owes no large student loans. Another positive factor is that he doesn't have to take his job home with him. When he punches out at quitting time, he is done. The lawyer often must take his job home with him, sometimes lying in bed at night worrying about his cases and the possible repurcusions if things go wrong. Here we have more responsibility being taken on by the lawyer than by the bus driver. Of course, this is also reflected in their relative salary levels.

I mention these factors because the length and cost of training tend to reduce the supply.

SETTING THE VALUE OF DIFFERENT SERVICES - Probably in primitive societies barter was the means of exchange. Barter works well for tangibles but for services rates of exchange are more difficult to determine.

If a bus driver needs legal services and a lawyer needs to travel somewhere, it is difficult to work out a barter exchange. Simply driving someone to a different location safely can't usually be exchanged for any but the most trivial legal matters.

VALUE BEING SET BY A FREE MARKET If one goes into business, he usually has a feel for what the existing competition charges and uses that as a guide to establish his initial pricing. Some businesses will set a lower price to entice buyers while others will charge more but extol the superiority of their services over the competition.

VALUE BEING SET BY KNOWLEDGE OF THE COST NEEDED TO PRODUCE THE GOODS OR SERVICE. Another way value is set is by computing the cost of producing goods or a service. One knows that he/she must charge more than what he/she pays to produce a particular good or service.

Those are the main ways of setting up prices for various goods and services. No one can just judge how much more legal services are worth than bus driving services; pricing does not work that way!

To get your name out in the public so that you can charge more, you need to be honest and have high quality goods. If you don't, you can bullshit the public that you do and get away with it for a while but word of mouth gets around and eventually a crooked lawyer or bus driver will be exposed and fail in business.

For an example of this, we need look no further than our friendly local C of S!
Lakey
 
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Bus drivers

Back in the mid 1960s, Electra Records put out a folk music sampler album, which I purchased. Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton were the only performers I now remember.

But back in the mid 1970s, when my wife's school began offering bus service, I got a bus driving license.i got it, so I could be a back up driver, should one of the regulars call in sick.

In my bus driving class, was one of the folk singers from that album.

I don't think there are any generalizations that I can make regarding bus drivers, or for that matter bar keepers or painters or most any job not requiring loads of college.

I've known a lawyer, who flipped burgers, one who drove for UPS.

Sometimes the right job isn't the highest paying one.Being happy in one's life is a lot more important.
 

JackStraw

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My philosophy, picked up from Taoism (iirc) is:

What is a wealthy man?
One who knows he has enough.

'nuff said, as far as I'm concerned.:thumbsup:

Jack
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: linking to articles

[...]

by opening the Apollo thread to a magazine format of smart interesting authors (Ted, Roger, Dart, etc), we created a catch all forum for smart commentary.

Ah, notoriety. I bask in the glow of such company.

It has been my experience that a link gets you almost zero clicks, but the full words especially with images get tons of response.

Yeah. I hate linking around. Most of the time I won't even go that extra click. I just skip it.

I chose outright theft of copyrighted material because more people read it.

It is an old sales maxim that amateurs invent while professionals steal (from each other). I think that stealing and including the link is the correct estimate of honor and effort. But that's me. I do not write the law. BTW, many laws are written by people in power. They are designed to consolidate and maintain that power while shutting out potential rivals.

This **link shit** will just result in less reading, LESS SHARING OF IDEAS, LESS CHANGE IN OPINIONS.

[...]

Laws are meant to be broken, Ah, the rebel self speaks! Speed limit on I-4 around here is 55 mph. If you drive at 55 you will likely get run over. 70 to 90 is the norm.

[...]

...
 
True Wealth

My philosophy, picked up from Taoism (iirc) is:

What is a wealthy man?
One who knows he has enough.

'nuff said, as far as I'm concerned.:thumbsup:

Jack

I looked in vain on YouTube for "I'd Rather Be a Newsboy in the USA, Than a Ruler in a Foreign Land," the 1919 hit written by (lyrics)Charles Kuhn, Jeff Branen, and (music) Robert Kuhn.

The Goodtime Washboard Three re-popularized it back in the 60s or 70s. If I recall correctly, Gene Nelson (of KYA and KSFO) played kazoo on it.

Alas it isn't available for mass downloading.

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There was a night that I felt I was the richest person in the world. It was when the Comet Kohoutek was in the sky. It was around 10 at night, my riding partner and I had been riding along a mountain stream listening to the night sounds. We were under a tree canopy, and we came into a clearing, and there in the sky, was the comet. Sitting atop our warm horses, bareback, in the cool night air, we gazed in awe. I've never felt richer. Pretty girl by my side, warm powerful horse beneath me, awesome natural surroundings, beautiful night sky. It doesn't get a lot better than that.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Thanks for this post Terril, Of course I did not know that the FEBC course contained both the ESTO data and the Prod/Org system. At that time, FEBC was hailed as the Admin equivalent of what the Class VIII course was to Tech. The data on what the FEBC consisted of was kept confidential at that time.

I find it very amusing that LRH said that he solved the problem of succession - have the successor do the OEC / FEBC. Look at who LRH's successor is!!! I know that DM has never done the OEC / FEBC so maybe LRH needed an undercut stating that any potential successor had to have done the OEC / FEBC. Also, prior to being eligible to even take OEC / FEBC some sort of ethics clearance should have been required. DM overcame all these tentative requirements simply by getting a Notary Public license and learning to duplicate LRH's signature!! As far as getting someone to witness his signature, he could order any staff member to do it but from what I have read, he often used Ray Mithoff.

David Fagan, who just left C of S recently has a great section in his write up of his experiences concerning DM's prerequisites for taking over as the leader of the Church from LRH.

You make an excellent point about having top execs doing an FEBC / OEC Internship! That would have been the way to go!! Nothing of that sort was ever implemented as far as I know.

Bill Franks had just come back from doing his OEC /FEBC at the Apollo while I was doing my first Dianetic Course at the L.A. Org. I had paid $1,300 (about $8k today) for the HSDC - Academy Level Package. For this fee, I was promised that I would train up to what is now Class V and would also receive my Dianetic and Grades auditing from other students while I was doing this course.

As I wrote early in this thread, the L.A. Org did not follow the Senior Policy in all Scientology - "We deliver what we promise." They attempted to reg me for thousands more to do Life Repair and Straightwire before I could receive Dianetics or my grades.

I demanded to see Bill Franks, the new FEBC, to sort out this violation of Senior Policy. Since I was brand new and knew the Senior Policy, I figured that Bill Franks would automatically be in my corner. When I told him my story, he showed no reaction or emotion and told me to wait in the back of the room while he talked to his junior. He told his junior, under his breath, that I was a "nut job" and a "trouble maker" and to body route me to the reg and make sure I paid for Life Repair and Straight Wire. Upon hearing this I snuck out a side door and jogged over to CCLA to transfer onto their lines. Up until arriving on ESMB, I always felt that Bill Franks was a dirt bag but since being on ESMB, I have learned that he was kicked out by DM himself and is actually a pretty decent and able guy.

Since Franks is a decent guy and he was fresh off of the OEC / FEBC course at Flag at the time of our run in, this illustrates that his FEBC training put more stress on going after stats and money in Scientology Orgs than it did on delivering what the Org promised. This was in Sept. - Oct. of 1970!

Why have a "Senior Policy" if your very highest training course teaches one not to honor that policy but rather go after stats and money from a brand new person?
Lakey

Why ethics clearing prior to OEC/FEBC? Its nonsence. No reason it should be confidential. OK some of it can be food for critics. So can so much else!

Bill Franks was there at the beginning of my FEBC. Then chained up and
not allowed to come to the second mission holders conference. He was very capable. What most impressed me was his " qual" action of a friend of mine who had just completed grade 0. He pushed every button he could and she was uber cool. Is a darling :) he told her " Hey honey, you done good" or similar. He was the ED of that org at that time. [ before my FEBC]

Thats qual!!!

He was of course an excellent product officer, FEBC/ class 9, appointed by LRH and kicked out by the midget. Yeah some dark side. But he was up for reform.

We have Bill and Mayo no longer considering themselves scientologists.
There is a pattern that those most abused leave. This is very sad.
 
Re: linking to articles

[video=youtube;1fXAO1MyPJs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fXAO1MyPJs[/video]


Do you have any preference as to caliber and target area?

Well, first you gotta ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky?"

[video=youtube;8Xjr2hnOHiM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xjr2hnOHiM[/video]
 

JackStraw

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hey, CO,


Good to see you back!

You go away for a couple days and the thread seems to go...weird somehow...:goodorbad:

Jack
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

Why ethics clearing prior to OEC/FEBC? Its nonsence. No reason it should be confidential. OK some of it can be food for critics. So can so much else!

Come on Terril, I don't think you got my point. LRH, supposedly the ablest being in the Universe, claims FEBC/OEC solves the problem of succession. Wonderful thing - right? Then his own successor ends up as the worst possible choice which could have been made!!! There is a HUGE outpoint here!!

Talk about the Supreme test of a thetan, "making things go right". What worse mistake could a being make than to have a successor take over for him who is dedicated to destroying his church and altering all his work.

In looking at how these events unfolded, I saw that DM never did the FEBC/OEC course. Looking earlier, I saw that LRH should have issued a policy that any successor of his would have to be an FEBC/OEC graduate. Probably, I should have stopped right there.

Instead, I thought that those who took the course should first be thoroughly checked by ethics, perhaps using the Security Checks which DM is demanding of everyone else. The sole purpose of this would be to insure that LRH's successor would be an in-ethics person.



Bill Franks was there at the beginning of my FEBC. Then chained up and
not allowed to come to the second mission holders conference. He was very capable. What most impressed me was his " qual" action of a friend of mine who had just completed grade 0. He pushed every button he could and she was uber cool. Is a darling :) he told her " Hey honey, you done good" or similar. He was the ED of that org at that time. [ before my FEBC]

Thats qual!!!

He was of course an excellent product officer, FEBC/ class 9, appointed by LRH and kicked out by the midget. Yeah some dark side. But he was up for reform.

We have Bill and Mayo no longer considering themselves scientologists.
There is a pattern that those most abused leave. This is very sad.

Yes, I've heard a lot of good things about Franks on ESMB. He is on Facebook at this time and I even "made friends" with him, Facebook style, and have read several of his posts over there and they seem very well intended.

The fact that Mayo no longer considers himself a scientologist reflects very badly on LRH. If you are honest, you are left no choice to see that ultimately, LRH, must be called to account for this. He did not apply his own policies about turning over all his hats. It looks as if he started to do this in 1982 by making it very clear that he wanted Mayo to take over his Tech Hats. Mayo was very diligent in carrying out these duties. DM got rid of him as he did with many of Ron's favorites.

DM should not have been there acting as LRH's successor while LRH was still alive. He was able to dupe LRH that Mayo was an SP and shove LRH off to the side as he took over running the show. The bottom line was that DM was able to take over and get rid of all the good people who he felt were threats to him.

Its as if LRH had set up this huge fortress to keep his legacy alive and assure proper succession. There were policies, organizations, personal, groups within groups, checks and balances, all there to keep the machine going and preserve LRH's legacy after he died. DM simply made a speedy end run around all this huge apparatus, totally bypassing with ease all the checks and balances which LRH had erected.

Once DM got in, Mayo boldly carried on with his Advanced Ability Center, fought and battled DM again, while LRH was still alive. DM's ruthless C of S destroyed him again and made his name the most detested name in scientology - something akin to the name Quisling, given to the Nazi collaborator. All this occurred while LRH was still alive. What more could DM do? He moved on to something else, he had no choice.

This responsibility for this debacle has to lie at the feet of LRH. He just did not make things go right. It's a sad thing to confront but its an honest look.
Lakey
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: linking to articles

I have been posting consistently for however many years I've been on ESMB, complete quotes from news services that I have found interesting. This includes the obvious, NY Times, AP, Yahoo, Bloomberg, plus dozens of others that I have stolen from.

Mick's censorship was the first time anyone had said "boo" about this.

I do know the law about this, and the penalties, should anyone push it, are severe. I think, more for me, than ESMB, but draconian, to say the least.

Frankly, I like being quoted. I like my words spread around. If I was any of the authors, who I have stolen from, I would be happy my words were being read.

One of the raisons d'état for the Apollo thread, as we currently view it, was that I observed the huge readership that it had generated as a thread about the Apollo and Celebrity Centre, an i wanted to continue the momentum. Writing for 200 readers of something I wrote, paled in comparison, to being read by thousands.

I'm a hot dogger!

no apologies

by opening the Apollo thread to a magazine format of smart interesting authors (Ted, Roger, Dart, etc), we created a catch all forum for smart commentary.

It has been my experience that a link gets you almost zero clicks, but the full words especially with images get tons of response.

I chose outright theft of copyrighted material because more people read it.

This **link shit** will just result in less reading, LESS SHARING OF IDEAS, LESS CHANGE IN OPINIONS.

oh, well.

that's the way it goes.

One of the strengths of this message board is the **multi media** aspect. I can link and materialize personal photos, YouTube vids, and my own personal "take'" on a subject.

Sure beats e mail.

A Thousand people read this thread a day minimum.

Compared to, even, a newspaper, this thread is a drop in the bucket.

I had a client, once, who had a diaper fetish. He / she took me to an adult diaper factory, near our house. He / she took photos and posted them. She /he got 4,000 hits in the first 24 hours on his / her photo / word essay. -- Kind of puts this in perspective, doesn't it?

The Apollo thread is about rock 'n' roll of the mind. We have contributors, who rock. Using all of the multi media tools has been a part of that. Stealing from excellent authors has been a part of that.

hey, once again, no apologies, just shock at finally being stopped.

Laws are meant to be broken,

I travel a road, Hwy 17, pretty regularly. It was the road I chose to drive the day I got my learner's permit at age 15 1/2 (EXACTLY). It is a windy mountain road to the beach. I've been driving it for 46 years. i've never driven it at the speed limit. There are 40 MPH curves, that I wouldn't consider driving at less than 57MPH.

This is who I am. I'm not a good little boy. I break rules. I push the envelope. Not gonna change.

So shoot me.


aha - a rebel without a pause?

AS for "censorship" au contraire mon vieux, I merely asked you to post the link so that people can a) read the article in the place it was produced so that those who worked can receive the credit/kudos/ad revenue for their work b) be sure they are reading the whole article.

Nothing censored.

Though I find your justification for doing it to be kind of byzantine.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

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Roping in friends/family would be a help too! :biggrin:

Roger

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