The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

four Q motorforker!!! i am O freaking T as all bleeping hades!

if you say so.

I just got one of those "Advance" mag's in the mail, by the COS. Yep, they are still telling stories of OT Phenomena.

http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/the-anecdotal-fallacy/

Since Jeff Hawkins left as editor many moons ago, I guess they the COS got a new creative editor.

Even as good as LRH's ability to use Rhetorical sublime in his writings and lectures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(literary)

" Longinus defines the literary sublime as "excellence in language", the "expression of a great spirit" and the power to provoke "ecstasy" in one's readers.[SUP][1][/SUP] Longinus holds that the sublime may be found in every work, since the goal of a writer should always be to produce a form of ecstasy."

Hubbard sure did provoke ecstasy in his followers that fell for it, like me.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

One positive thing about limiting the right to vote to people who have a financial stake in the community (it was not just land owners, business owners qualified too): the people voting understand that they will be subjected to the consequences of their vote, and the consequences will be fairly quickly reflected in the market value of their property.

People who do not have a financial investment in the community know they can just move elsewhere if their choices make the community unlivable.

Excellent comments as usual for you! Besides voting, there is also the USA jury system. Legal disputes between parties were supposed to be judged by a jury of one's peers. The landowners, business owners and those well educated probably composed the majority of early US juries; I don't know this but am just guessing. We should be judged by our peers but in the great majority of jury trials in today's USA, this is not the case. The population at large is very poorly educated and is instead indoctrinated in a lot of untruths, clap trap and misinformation. Our news media is very corrupted and biased and plays a major role in influencing the thought processes of many jurors.

A person who is relatively rational and sane is often judged by a panel of jurors which is collectively unfit to properly carry out the duties of a jurist. The O.J. Simpson trial is a good example of how a jury can malfunction. A virtually open and shut murder case was judged such that a double murderer walked away pronounced not guilty by a journey in a trial which was more of an entertainment venue and media circus than it was a murder trial.

Still, every now and then, a jury will surprise us and render a truthful and just decision. The fact that this occasionally happens is mute testimony to the basic morals and intelligence which people have at their inner cores. No matter how much of a media circus takes place, every now and then a brave and honest judgement is made by an American jury. If we were actually judged by a jury of our peers, this outcome would consistently be the result of almost all jury decisions as was intended by the wise founders of our country!!
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

if you say so.

I just got one of those "Advance" mag's in the mail, by the COS. Yep, they are still telling stories of OT Phenomena.

http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/the-anecdotal-fallacy/

Since Jeff Hawkins left as editor many moons ago, I guess they the COS got a new creative editor.

Even as good as LRH's ability to use Rhetorical sublime in his writings and lectures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(literary)

" Longinus defines the literary sublime as "excellence in language", the "expression of a great spirit" and the power to provoke "ecstasy" in one's readers.[SUP][1][/SUP] Longinus holds that the sublime may be found in every work, since the goal of a writer should always be to produce a form of ecstasy."

Hubbard sure did provoke ecstasy in his followers that fell for it, like me.

advance has always been a piece of crap in literary terms but some of the oaty stories have piqued my interest. the hubbard material has been big for me but i've developed my esoteric capacities from many sources nopt to mention sauces. but. something which can sensibly be denominated as "OT" is quite real to me. not that anything i say or write will quell the chanting of the "no clears! no OT's" mantra

clear?

i don't know...

is there such a thing as a "reactive mind" which can be terminated?

i don't know and tend toward a belief this is not an exact truth

dianetics is presented as a science and i'm well grounded and have always treatwd it as a science and i views it's theories as "working theories:" and i've found them workable. even if clear and reactive mind are not perfect truths they are far from meaningless. responsive thought and action is distinct from reactive thought and action. "keyed out clear" is an exceptionally meaningful term. a mental, emotional and spiritual condition which fits well with those words is a matter of personal experience and seems quite observable in others

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

advance has always been a piece of crap in literary terms but some of the oaty stories have piqued my interest. the hubbard material has been big for me but i've developed my esoteric capacities from many sources nopt to mention sauces. but. something which can sensibly be denominated as "OT" is quite real to me. not that anything i say or write will quell the chanting of the "no clears! no OT's" mantra

clear?

i don't know...

is there such a thing as a "reactive mind" which can be terminated?

i don't know and tend toward a belief this is not an exact truth

dianetics is presented as a science and i'm well grounded and have always treatwd it as a science and i views it's theories as "working theories:" and i've found them workable. even if clear and reactive mind are not perfect truths they are far from meaningless. responsive thought and action is distinct from reactive thought and action. "keyed out clear" is an exceptionally meaningful term. a mental, emotional and spiritual condition which fits well with those words is a matter of personal experience and seems quite observable in others

you are talking words to describe.

Hubbard used sublime to create a state of "clear" or "OT" in a persons mind, the definition he gave for clear & OT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)

"In aesthetics, the sublime (from the Latin sublīmis) is the quality of greatness, whether physical, moral, intellectual, metaphysical, aesthetic, spiritual, or artistic. The term especially refers to a greatness beyond all possibility of calculation, measurement, or imitation."

I'm glad you are sublimed.

Now, for the rest of us dupes, well............I see no clears or ot's. And I too speak from personal experience.

 

[SpaceVaccine888]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

to explain and offer experiences that there are no "clears" and "OTs"?

Actually, there are. Many magickal organizations are full of people with extraordinary psychic powers that fit the definition of OT. The Typhonian OTO, Temple of Set, and several others regularly produce these abilities in people. Even Scientology produced a few, like Ingo Swann, and the CIA's Remote Viewing teams are capable of such abilities.

 

[lkwdblds]

EXORCISE AND EXERCISE

Actually, there are. Many magickal organizations are full of people with extraordinary psychic powers that fit the definition of OT. The Typhonian OTO, Temple of Set, and several others regularly produce these abilities in people. Even Scientology produced a few, like Ingo Swann, and the CIA's Remote Viewing teams are capable of such abilities.

Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff had some ability to view drawings or sketches from a distance. The one example which I saw from Swann was a pretty close copy of a picture which he was viewing at a different location from where the picture was. A lot of people can do isolated acts such as that, When I touch a person's head while massaging them I often pick up on their pictures and am able to see and feel what they are thinking. That may be a small instance of an OT ability being manifested but it is not 100% percent accurate and it does not occur 100% of the time. Hubbard stated that an OT would be at total cause, both obectively and subjectively over matter, energy, space, time and life. No such person has even been produced in Scientology, including Hubbard himself.

Also, large cash awards are available on the internet for any being who can come forward and demonstrate OT abilities on a predicable and one for one basis. Why haven't some of those alleged OT's not come forward to collect this money?

I believe that Hubbard's "old" OT levels had more of a chance of achieving that result than the current NOTS OT levels which supplanted them. Assuming beings are trillions of years old, as Hubbard does (and that is a very big assumption), and that we all had OT powers early in our histories but lost them through committing overt acts and having withholds and being entrapped and implanted by other beings (another huge assumption), it would seem that our OT powers have atrophied over this huge span of time since we lost them and that the road back to regaining them would be to do drills and exercises to restore those former powers. Physical Therapy exists to restore former abilities to a withered body and most likely a similar thing would be needed to do the same for a weakened spirit!

In this manner the earlier OT levels were similar to exercises which a physical therapist might perform on one's body or memory so as to restore former abilities. A lot of Hubbard's early books outlined many such exercises, especially the book called, "The Creation of Human Ability".

EXORCISE AND THEN EXERCISE!!
An exorcism type of process would not of itself be sufficient to restore abilities lost eons ago. I can see doing a lot of exorcisms to isolate a being from various entities which he/she has confused themselves with but once the exorcisms are done one would still have to exercise and build the being back up to a more powerful state.

Thus a combination of doing the NOTS levels first and then the old OT Levels afterwards would make more sense than relying on just NOTS to give one OT abilities! That was never entertained by Scientology management, at least in so far as I know.

Also, when it comes to exorcism, it seems logical that one hang on to their spiritual allies and team mates rather then just get rid of them along with all the negative things one releases.
Lakey

 

[SpaceVaccine888]

Re: EXORCISE AND EXERCISE

Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff had some ability to view drawings or sketches from a distance. The one example which I saw from Swann was a pretty close copy of a picture which he was viewing at a different location from where the picture was. A lot of people can do isolated acts such as that, When I touch a person's head while massaging them I often pick up on their pictures and am able to see and feel what they are thinking. That may be a small instance of an OT ability being manifested but it is not 100% percent accurate and it does not occur 100% of the time. Hubbard stated that an OT would be at total cause, both obectively and subjectively over matter, energy, space, time and life. No such person has even been produced in Scientology, including Hubbard himself.

Also, large cash awards are available on the internet for any being who can come forward and demonstrate OT abilities on a predicable and one for one basis. Why haven't some of those alleged OT's not come forward to collect this money?

I believe that Hubbard's "old" OT levels had more of a chance of achieving that result than the current NOTS OT levels which supplanted them. Assuming beings are trillions of years old, as Hubbard does (and that is a very big assumption), and that we all had OT powers early in our histories but lost them through committing overt acts and having withholds and being entrapped and implanted by other beings (another huge assumption), it would seem that our OT powers have atrophied over this huge span of time since we lost them and that the road back to regaining them would be to do drills and exercises to restore those former powers. Physical Therapy exists to restore former abilities to a withered body and most likely a similar thing would be needed to do the same for a weakened spirit!

In this manner the earlier OT levels were similar to exercises which a physical therapist might perform on one's body or memory so as to restore former abilities. A lot of Hubbard's early books outlined many such exercises, especially the book called, "The Creation of Human Ability".

EXORCISE AND THEN EXERCISE!!
An exorcism type of process would not of itself be sufficient to restore abilities lost eons ago. I can see doing a lot of exorcisms to isolate a being from various entities which he/she has confused themselves with but once the exorcisms are done one would still have to exercise and build the being back up to a more powerful state.

Thus a combination of doing the NOTS levels first and then the old OT Levels afterwards would make more sense than relying on just NOTS to give one OT abilities! That was never entertained by Scientology management, at least in so far as I know.

Also, when it comes to exorcism, it seems logical that one hang on to their spiritual allies and team mates rather then just get rid of them along with all the negative things one releases.
Lakey

I agree with you completely on the exorcise-exercise thing. And I'm surprised they don't train the psychic muscles at all with the new OT levels. Creation of Human Ability is full of excellent exercises for this, and no one uses them?

Their magickal floundering days may end soon. I heard that Mark Luskin from the Temple of Set was hired in NYC to give seminars to $cientologists last year. Perhaps they've caught on to what they're missing and trying to fill in the gaps?

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

you are talking words to describe.

Hubbard used sublime to create a state of "clear" or "OT" in a persons mind, the definition he gave for clear & OT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)

"In aesthetics, the sublime (from the Latin sublīmis) is the quality of greatness, whether physical, moral, intellectual, metaphysical, aesthetic, spiritual, or artistic. The term especially refers to a greatness beyond all possibility of calculation, measurement, or imitation."

I'm glad you are sublimed.

Now, for the rest of us dupes, well............I see no clears or ot's. And I too speak from personal experience.

sugarplum

lifting the sox off the canvas in the bottom of the ninth in game four of the 2004 ALCS ain't in my mind. it's in the record book

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

sugarplum

lifting the sox off the canvas in the bottom of the ninth in game four of the 2004 ALCS ain't in my mind. it's in the record book

what is true for you, is true for you

how do you convince what is true for you, to be true for others?

------------

what is true to you, is true to you

how do you convince what is is true to you, to be true to others?

 

[Ted]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

what is true for you, is true for you

how do you convince what is true for you, to be true for others?

------------

what is true to you, is true to you

how do you convince what is is true to you, to be true to others?

Salesmanship.

In fact, a good salesman doesn't even have to feel it's true for him in order to sell it. Many times the commission/reward is enough to keep him going strong.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

what is true for you, is true for you

how do you convince what is true for you, to be true for others?

------------

what is true to you, is true to you

how do you convince what is is true to you, to be true to others?

with what might be termed "OT" a being only knows of it from direct experience

i can point to results

i cannot prove my relationship to said results. by definition if it could be proven it would not be transcendent

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Salesmanship.

In fact, a good salesman doesn't even have to feel it's true for him in order to sell it. Many times the commission/reward is enough to keep him going strong.

i'm not a salesman ted. in fact i refuse to sell CoS services...

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Salesmanship.

In fact, a good salesman doesn't even have to feel it's true for him in order to sell it. Many times the commission/reward is enough to keep him going strong.

Salesmanship is such an extremely powerful force in everyday living that its power is virtually incalculable. Salesmanship seems to be the determining factor in two of the most interesting games being played on planet Earth, namely the game of having sex and finding a sexual partner and the game of getting into and running a government.

In romance, sex appeal is used to sell everything to do with that game, even though other factors are factually more important. The only power in romance which can contest sex appeal is wealth. Sometimes some one with extreme sex appeal will sell out and go with a not so sexy person who has a lot of money. Sex appeal also spreads beyond romance and is used to sell all manner of products. Look at this video add featuring Kate Upton for a new Carl's Jr. hamburger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdViveJYD0

Pretty amazing!!

Salesmanship is also especially used to sell politics and government. Seek the votes of the lower income classes including those who have little or no education and little or no money. Promise them all manner of freebees having to do with food, housing, employment, medical care. Make it easy for them to vote, whether they are a citizen of the country they are voting in or not. Basically, the test is only that they be alive and can get hold of an official ballot.

The game is then to make these people more plentiful than the rest of the population and then to isolate the rest of the population and characterize them as fat cats who don't care about the poor. At that point, those fat cats lose their chances to have political representation in the most populated and biggest states and all future national elections will be won by the lower income and less educated classes.

Oddly enough, the fat cats then become the ones who are supporting the lower classes. This should endear them to the fat cat class but it doesn't. The political hacks do more salesmanship and sell to the poor and uneducated that they, the political hacks, are the ones responsible for assisting the poor. The fat cats are painted as evil people who do not want to help the poor but are being forced by the elite and enlightened political hacks to give up a small portion of their riches to assist the poor. Salesmanship reins King, especially in the Western democraices.

Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Salesmanship is such an extremely powerful force in everyday living that its power is virtually incalculable. Salesmanship seems to be the determining factor in two of the most interesting games being played on planet Earth, namely the game of having sex and finding a sexual partner and the game of getting into and running a government.

In romance, sex appeal is used to sell everything to do with that game, even though other factors are factually more important. The only power in romance which can contest sex appeal is wealth. Sometimes some one with extreme sex appeal will sell out and go with a not so sexy person who has a lot of money. Sex appeal also spreads beyond romance and is used to sell all manner of products. Look at this video add featuring Kate Upton for a new Carl's Jr. hamburger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdViveJYD0

Pretty amazing!!

Salesmanship is also especially used to sell politics and government. Seek the votes of the lower income classes including those who have little or no education and little or no money. Promise them all manner of freebees having to do with food, housing, employment, medical care. Make it easy for them to vote, whether they are a citizen of the country they are voting in or not. Basically, the test is only that they be alive and can get hold of an official ballot.

The game is then to make these people more plentiful than the rest of the population and then to isolate the rest of the population and characterize them as fat cats who don't care about the poor. At that point, those fat cats lose their chances to have political representation in the most populated and biggest states and all future national elections will be won by the lower income and less educated classes.

Oddly enough, the fat cats then become the ones who are supporting the lower classes. This should endear them to the fat cat class but it doesn't. The political hacks do more salesmanship and sell to the poor and uneducated that they, the political hacks, are the ones responsible for assisting the poor. The fat cats are painted as evil people who do not want to help the poor but are being forced by the elite and enlightened political hacks to give up a small portion of their riches to assist the poor. Salesmanship reins King, especially in the Western democraices.

Lakey

had it been possible to get a network to air such a commercial in 1963 there would have been angry crowds outside the burger joint the next day...

 

[Ted]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Salesmanship is such an extremely powerful force in everyday living that its power is virtually incalculable. Salesmanship seems to be the determining factor in two of the most interesting games being played on planet Earth, namely the game of having sex and finding a sexual partner and the game of getting into and running a government.

In romance, sex appeal is used to sell everything to do with that game, even though other factors are factually more important. The only power in romance which can contest sex appeal is wealth. Sometimes some one with extreme sex appeal will sell out and go with a not so sexy person who has a lot of money. Sex appeal also spreads beyond romance and is used to sell all manner of products. Look at this video add featuring Kate Upton for a new Carl's Jr. hamburger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdViveJYD0

Pretty amazing!!

Salesmanship is also especially used to sell politics and government. Seek the votes of the lower income classes including those who have little or no education and little or no money. Promise them all manner of freebees having to do with food, housing, employment, medical care. Make it easy for them to vote, whether they are a citizen of the country they are voting in or not. Basically, the test is only that they be alive and can get hold of an official ballot.

The game is then to make these people more plentiful than the rest of the population and then to isolate the rest of the population and characterize them as fat cats who don't care about the poor. At that point, those fat cats lose their chances to have political representation in the most populated and biggest states and all future national elections will be won by the lower income and less educated classes.

Oddly enough, the fat cats then become the ones who are supporting the lower classes. This should endear them to the fat cat class but it doesn't. The political hacks do more salesmanship and sell to the poor and uneducated that they, the political hacks, are the ones responsible for assisting the poor. The fat cats are painted as evil people who do not want to help the poor but are being forced by the elite and enlightened political hacks to give up a small portion of their riches to assist the poor. Salesmanship reins King, especially in the Western democraices.

Lakey

It is a bizarre situation, isn't it?

Congress Is Now Mostly A Millionaires Club

In other words, fat cats and cronies of one stripe who publicly demonize fat cats and cronies of another stripe while the rubes and dupes look on in hopes of casting their votes for the "best" benny package.

 

[Ted]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdViveJYD0



Lakey

I am probably old enough to be her grandfather. Not much sex appeal there for me. However, it did get my attention at least this once. The gyrations came pretty close to a couple of beaver shots, or did I miss it?

Anyway, I was getting nervous over hamburger juice marring that mohair sweater. Glad to see that she took it off. Yeah, I am that old and far too practical.

 

[Ted]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

i'm not a salesman ted. in fact i refuse to sell CoS services...

Regarding CoS services, yes, I know that.

Regarding what people think of as traditional sales, right, you are not a salesman, not of cars, vacuum cleaners, real estate, computers, … .

Regarding sales in a broad sense, everyone is selling something even when they assert, "I am not a salesman." In that case, that's what they are selling. And you know what, that's okay. It's Life as we know and practice it at this time and place called Earth.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

had it been possible to get a network to air such a commercial in 1963 there would have been angry crowds outside the burger joint the next day...

Do you remember that Swedish beauty from the early 60's who was selling Noxema shaving cream. Her line was, "Take it off men, take it all off!" She was referring only to the men's beards, not their clothes but that was about as suggestive as an add could be at that time.

Here is the commercial from 1967 television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkpGM_MvZ2Y.

This young lady, Gunella Knutson got enough publicity from the ad to appear on the Johnny Carson show in 1968. I know because I was on business in Houston with 4 other guys, all working for IBM. We went there with our boss to attempt to gain a new contract at NASA in Houston. We were there about a week and had we been successful, we would have relocated there along with the rest of our group for 2 or 3 years. I knew Houston well already from having worked there from June, 1964 to June 1965 for a company called Wolf Research and Development. Houston of that period was a great town in several ways but the weather was the worst of any place I have ever lived. The humidity and mugginess were extreme, often being compared to Calcutta, India. Only because of the humid weather did I want to immediately find a job somewhere else. The friendliness of the people was very apparent compared to Californians of that period. Also no state income tax and only 4% sales tax was nice to live with.

Arriving in June 1964, just after the major civil rights act of 1964 became the law of the land, I got to see a faint vestige of what a Jim Crow society must have been like. Houston had basically accepted the law enthusiastically. They almost had to because NASA was located there and President Johnson and Lady Bird Johnson were from that area. NASA was totally color blind my first year there but individual Southerners still had some residual racism remaining from the Jim Crow days.
Lakey

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

Salesmanship.

In fact, a good salesman doesn't even have to feel it's true for him in order to sell it. Many times the commission/reward is enough to keep him going strong.

I reckon back in the old days of Socrates, Plato & Aristotle,

salesmanship was actually Rhetoric, as the word salesmanship wasn't even invented yet. But the purpose of Rhetoric, back then, from what I can figure was to understand it so as not to be hoodwinked.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/

Fortunately for me, I understand CB's rhetoric, or salesmanship, ever so slightly clever it is. But CB sure believes what he says.

yep, I'm selling people to read about Rhetoric, but it's free. LOL

The work was free, so keep it so. laugher.

 

[Gib]

Re: A new follow up post from Mama

with what might be termed "OT" a being only knows of it from direct experience

i can point to results

i cannot prove my relationship to said results. by definition if it could be proven it would not be transcendent

I always wanted to go clear & ot.

I'm like you, only a straightwizer completion.

Oh, the power of advertising to want.