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Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i hope this doesn't upset a lively conversation but i got a question for the jolly band of pirates off the good ship apollo...

tonja burden swore an affadavit which appears to make several allegations mentioned nowhere else; that children were in the chain locker for weeks at a time and one was there for a month allowed out only to clean the bilge

can anyone either corroborate and/or verify her statement or attest that she is blowing smoke?


as to the conversation here

dianetics is optional, not requisite to a productive healthy creative life nor to a living relationship with That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves

personally i like it, i got a lot of good out it and i've produced much good for others
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i hope this doesn't upset a lively conversation but i got a question for the jolly band of pirates off the good ship apollo...

tonja burden swore an affadavit which appears to make several allegations mentioned nowhere else; that children were in the chain locker for weeks at a time and one was there for a month allowed out only to clean the bilge

can anyone either corroborate and/or verify her statement or attest that she is blowing smoke?


as to the conversation here

dianetics is optional, not requisite to a productive healthy creative life nor to a living relationship with That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves

personally i like it, i got a lot of good out it and i've produced much good for others

Thank you for your fine post Commander. As regards children being placed in the chain locker, by 1973, the only year that I was on the Apollo, the "gen" or gossip around the ship was that in the ship's earlier days, the practice of throwing crew overboard if LRH considered that they screwed up or putting people in the chain locker if they screwed up had taken place years earlier but had been stopped several years prior to 1973.

I believe that it was CO2 who published a lot of materials on John McMaster, Clear #1, and in those materials, as I recall, though I may be incorrect, there is an anecdote where McMaster came back from representing COS at the United Nations and as soon as he arrived onboord the Apollo, some panicked crew member told him that a very young lad, perhaps 3 or 4, had been put in the chain locker by LRH for several days and this staff member was afraid that he might be in the process of catching a serious disease.

The story continues, saying that LRH was sleeping at the time so McMaster ordered someone to open the chain locker and remove the child, dry him off, put him in warm clothing and take him to the MLO (Medical Liason Officer) to be treated and cared for. As soon as LRH woke up, so the story continues, McMaster stormed in to see him and said to him, "What the Hell do you Think You are Doing?" LRH responded that children were thetans with young bodies and that they needed to be treated as such and not cut any slack when they screwed up.

The incident between the two men was then dropped but a short time later, Johnny M. was offloaded from the ship. I don't remember if he was Comm Eved or Fitness Boarded or what but he was kicked off the ship. That is all I remember of the anecdote. You can probably find the full story if you Google it and filll in the parts that I no longer recall.
Lakey
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, for any who have even ever so lightly scanned over this thread will have already noticed that Lakey, bless his heart, seems to have a one note response to any posts that doesn't suit him.

Right, how brilliant a deduction. The thread has attained 1.73 million views where most threads do several hundred or several thousand views. Are you one of those who have ever so lightly scanned over this thread and then came to that conclusion? If so, maybe the outpoint lies, not with a one note response which I have to any posts that don't suit me but rather with the fact that you should read the thread and its posts more thoroughly before giving your opinion about why the thread is no good.
Lakey
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

LRH's assertion that children are old thetans etc etc is a pure justification and an attempt to lessen the overt. He should have had his face shoved in it.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

. . . an aberration is essentially an ability - but it is an ability that has gone out of control"


This is correct. LRH talks about it too somewhere. Every aberration is a normal ability that is either being asserted too strongly or being repressed or being used inappropriately.

Viewed from a different angle - each of the various ilogics from the Data Series is being introduced into the ability without the awareness of the aberree.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This is correct. LRH talks about it too somewhere. Every aberration is a normal ability that is either being asserted too strongly or being repressed or being used inappropriately.

Viewed from a different angle - each of the various ilogics from the Data Series is being introduced into the ability without the awareness of the aberree.

Wow, its really nice to hear from you Leon. You are one of those posters, who did the most for me personally, especially concerning my experience on OT III. I was doing well on the level for almost 3 weeks and then went into a persistent rock slam on the meter. I double checked my two meters and tried several times over 2 days to restart my sessions but it was always a persistent rock slam. I went into AOLA and did a D of P interview on a meter, where they say to you, "I am not auditing you." After the interview, I was told to wait on the couch in reception.

About an hour later, I was called up to the D of P and was told that I had completed the level and would immediately start on OTIV the next day. This was an extreme example of atrocious tech. From that point forward, for about 34 years, I believed that a persistent rock slam was the End Phenomena of OT III. What a crock of bullshit.

It was Leon who revealed to me that if an OT level did not bite, the thing to do was to just go on to the next level and hope that level bites and if it does, as in my case, the guy just continues up the bridge with major misconceptions about OT III and its End Phenomena.

Thanks Leon for giving a cogent reply to the statement made by Gib that every aberration is an ability that has gone awry. With your fine example, referring back to the data series and the logics and illogics, I can see how it could be that way but I still am not 100% sold on the statement being true.

I no longer hold LRH in awe as an infallible source of information. To me, he was bright and had some good ideas but his major talent was in sorting out data as to order of importance and then packaging it attractively so that it would sell to the Western public. As it turned out, most of the data was developed by others and would then be plagerized by LRH.

The friggin Data Series has some merit but overall I believe the system is deeply flawed. IMO, it needs more work to be done on it to be a worthwhile tool for running things.

Case in point is the Data Evaluation I was ordered to write an up to find the "Why" behind the fact that the 1973 Celebrity Center was becoming an upstate Class IV Org with only a few genuine celebrities on lines. I had already thought about this topic several months earlier when I was a Sea Org member in CCLA Treasury. The "Why" came to me during a Thursday night staff meeting where all stats for the week were revealed to all staff at a large weekly staff meeting. It caught my attention immediately that an out point existed in a Division 6 (Public Division) stat called "New Bodies in the Shop". All Class IV orgs as well as AOLA and ASHO had this same stat. Instantly, I decided that for a celebrity center, if more genuine celebrities were desired, the stat should be called, "New Celebrities in the Shop".

I'm not certain if I reported this new insight to Yvonne Jentzsch in my weekly report to her. Maybe not, because no one at CCLA, including Yvonne seemed to be very concerned in getting more big name celebrities on lines. Her Org was growing by leaps and bounds, From a couple of staff members to 150 or so staff members in only 1 1/2 years and her public did have perhaps 8 or so big name celebrities and perhaps 10-12 others who were not household names but could be considered celebrities. The idea was that Yvonne knew what she was doing and had grown a large and flourishing Org almost overnight so the idea was not to rock the boat.

However, back at Flag, somebody - it almost had to be LRH or perhaps Diana Hubbard, who decided that CC was more of just an upstat Class IV Org than a genuine Celebrity Centre. Word went up in October of 1973 to find that "Why" and as luck would have it, finding that "Why" was assigned as my first duty, even though I had never done the Data Series Evaluator Course.

Fortunately, I already knew the "why" so I just blurted it out to my Senior, Sandy. She looked at me with the glee of insanity both at my "Why" and also at my handling, which was to just rename the Stat by changing the word 'Body' to the word 'Celebrity'. Sandy ordered me not to go any further with my "Why" which was the correct "Why". I tried 3 Evals, but always arrived at my correct Why. She ripped my papers into shreds and threw them in my face or stomped on them in the waste basket. Finally, she assigned me the condition of Danger and did my Eval herself. I read the monstrosity which she created. It was many pages long and was a very bureaucratic and stilted piece of work. It was so boring that after a few pages of reading it, I began doping off. One thing I knew for certain was that CC staff would not be capable of implementing such a program and even if they did , doing those dozens and dozens of steps would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on CCLA bringing in more genuine Celebrities.

True to my prediction, Sandy's Eval was implemented but no perceivable change in stats took place. Here on ESMB, I found out 3 or 4 years ago that around 1998 or 1999, someone figured out that the stat should be changed and it was changed to exactly what I had recommended 36 years earlier. Not only that but people on CC lines who were not actual celebrities were ordered to transfer out of CCLA and into the L.A. Org, AOLA or ASHO.

So there it was, I had a Bachelor's degree in Math with a minor in physics and had worked as a professional scientific computer programmer in the Apollo Space Program for 9 years. I worked with people who knew how to solve problems and knew what they were doing. Many of the Engineers and Scientists whom I worked with were Cal Tech and MIT caliber people who really knew conceptually engineering, physics and math. When it came to living life with gusto, most of them weren't that smart, though there were a few exceptions. These guys were book smart and when I say smart, I mean super smart but most were not street smart!! I knew enough to understand what they wanted and in those pre home computer days, I had to transfer their calculations and equations into computer code and design intricate programs to solve their equations. Also, I had to command the computer to print our their instructions in graph form so that their figures could be readily analyzed. Finally there was tech writing, and I had to write up detailed user manuals for all my programs.

In closing, I will say, just to tell the truth as I see it, that with my education and background, I was able to spot an outpoint just by paying attention to what was being said at a staff meeting and then come up with a spot on "Why" and a simple "Fix", which was to simply change one word in the name of one particular stat.

We were sold the lie that WOG education was virtually worthless while studying LRH data, such as the Data Evaluators Course, was of infinite value. I bought into this horseshit and went along with the lie. 40 years later, I saw the actual truth. Sandy S. should have been shining my shoes but on the Apollo, the situation was reversed. Not only that, but at every turn, Sandy and many. but not all, of the trolls and robots who were present there in the Flag Bureaux not only had me shining their shoes but they were rubbing my face in the shoe polish at every opportunity which they could find.

In summary, just because LRH said something doesn't mean all that much to me. Some of his stuff works and some of it not only doesn't work but it also makes things worse, often much worse. Everything he said or wrote has to be evaluated before putting any of it into use.
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: Hubbard's Data Evaluation Techniques

I was thinking about my last post. Hubbard brought out his Data Evaluator's course in 1973 and set up the Flag Bureaux to learn it and do Evaluations. Probably, Hubbard or CS 6 Diane Hubbard Horwich astutely noticed that though CCLA was growing like wildfire, it was not really a Celebrity Center in the full sense of the term, as had been defined by Hubbard. A call was done for Data Evaluators in the Flag Bureaux to find the "Why" and correct it.

What should have been a stroke of luck for Hubbard was that I had already figured out the why and an effective handling for it on my own without the use of the Data Evaluators write ups. In Hubbard's organizations, it was not encouraged or even allowed for someone to conceive of an original idea on their own. After KSW #1 came out in 1965, it seemed unlikely that Hubbard would be willing to make someone else's ideas part of his tech. Thus my epiphany on how to solve a problem which Hubbard wanted solved was literally thrown in the trash, stomped on and run through a shredder.

As a result, for 36 years, long after Hubbard had died, his simple request to find a why was left unsolved. Finally in 1999 someone else found the correct "why" independently and implemented the correct handling. I have no idea which individual figured it out. Most likely, it might have been DM himself because I doubt if anyone else was allowed to do any original thinking on their own. Just think about it. For Hubbard and COS, time lags were to be avoided at all costs, yet here was 36 year communication lag that could have been avoided!!

WHAT I MIGHT HAVE DONE: Sometimes, over the years, I thought that I should have written up my discovery to Hubbard. There was a line which Flag staff members could use to get personal data to him. The reason that I did not do this was because my senior Sandy, who was much more hatted than me in Data Evaluation, vehemently rejected my discovery in such a violent manner that I thought it best to not go over her head.

Say what you will about Hubbard but he was no fool. I believe that he would have found merit in my discovery and probably would immediately implemented it. I'm almost positive that he would have taken credit for figuring it out himself but the "why" which I found was so obviously the correct why, it is almost inconceivable that he would have ignored it.

AGNES HADLEY and HER STORY ABOUT HOW BIG LEAGUE SALES CLOSING TECHNIQUES BECAME PART OF COS THROUGH HER WRITING A REPORT TO LRH

In 2009 I read Agnes Hadley's story of being a registrar at St Hill in England. She had upstats for a long time but finally they leveled out. Her seniors started to get on her to get her stats moving upwards again but try as she might, she was not able to get them any higher, without going out ethics with repect to misusing parishioners, etc. On her hygiene time in a drug store being supplies, she notice the Big League Sales Closing Techniques book on the store book shelves. She purchase a copy for about $10 using her tiny amount of staff pay.

She was pretty sure that if her seniors saw her reading the book or knew that she was applying its teaching, she would be removed from post for out ethics and squirreling. Thus she concealed what she was doing but started reading the book and using its data. Immediately, states started to rise and went to a new and much higher range. Her seniors asked her what she was doing and she played dumb. As she read further and implemented more of Les Dane's teachings, her stats took off, much like one of those cartoon stat graphs which DM shows at his events. From highest evers she busted through that plateau and went much higher into a new plateau.

As I said above, Hubbard was no fool and he kept an eye on extreme downstats and extreme upstats. With an extreme upstate, he would find out what successful actions they were putting into use. Finally, Hubbard wanted to know what Agnes was doing to raise her stats so dramatically. She was really hesitant to tell him that she had purchased a non LRH book and was reading it and implementing its contents. As hesitant as she was, she had no choice and so she spilled the beans and told her everything about the Les Dane book.

She expected to be heavily discipline gut instead she was heartily validated. Hubbard took the Les Dane book and made reading it part of the Registrar Hat. He did revise the bppl by removing all references to Psychology which were liberally sprinkled throughout the book. Hubbard never mentioned Agnes's name as the source person for introducing Big League Sales Closing Techniques into COS. He even went so far as to retain Dane to come to Flag and teach courses on Big League. Dane made appearances teaching Big League at Flag for many years up until his debt.

My case was much simpler, Hubbard would take credit for my discovery and implement it and nothing more would have been done.
 
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Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This is correct. LRH talks about it too somewhere. Every aberration is a normal ability that is either being asserted too strongly or being repressed or being used inappropriately.

Viewed from a different angle - each of the various ilogics from the Data Series is being introduced into the ability without the awareness of the aberree.

there goes the engram theory, even in the OT levels of getting to basic basic or the great wall of fire. :laugh:

there is a sucker born every minute.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Wow, its really nice to hear from you Leon. You are one of those posters, who did the most for me personally, especially concerning my experience on OT III. I was doing well on the level for almost 3 weeks and then went into a persistent rock slam on the meter. I double checked my two meters and tried several times over 2 days to restart my sessions but it was always a persistent rock slam. I went into AOLA and did a D of P interview on a meter, where they say to you, "I am not auditing you." After the interview, I was told to wait on the couch in reception.

About an hour later, I was called up to the D of P and was told that I had completed the level and would immediately start on OTIV the next day. This was an extreme example of atrocious tech. From that point forward, for about 34 years, I believed that a persistent rock slam was the End Phenomena of OT III. What a crock of bullshit.

It was Leon who revealed to me that if an OT level did not bite, the thing to do was to just go on to the next level and hope that level bites and if it does, as in my case, the guy just continues up the bridge with major misconceptions about OT III and its End Phenomena.

Thanks Leon for giving a cogent reply to the statement made by Gib that every aberration is an ability that has gone awry. With your fine example, referring back to the data series and the logics and illogics, I can see how it could be that way but I still am not 100% sold on the statement being true.

I no longer hold LRH in awe as an infallible source of information. To me, he was bright and had some good ideas but his major talent was in sorting out data as to order of importance and then packaging it attractively so that it would sell to the Western public. As it turned out, most of the data was developed by others and would then be plagerized by LRH.

The friggin Data Series has some merit but overall I believe the system is deeply flawed. IMO, it needs more work to be done on it to be a worthwhile tool for running things.

Case in point is the Data Evaluation I was ordered to write an up to find the "Why" behind the fact that the 1973 Celebrity Center was becoming an upstate Class IV Org with only a few genuine celebrities on lines. I had already thought about this topic several months earlier when I was a Sea Org member in CCLA Treasury. The "Why" came to me during a Thursday night staff meeting where all stats for the week were revealed to all staff at a large weekly staff meeting. It caught my attention immediately that an out point existed in a Division 6 (Public Division) stat called "New Bodies in the Shop". All Class IV orgs as well as AOLA and ASHO had this same stat. Instantly, I decided that for a celebrity center, if more genuine celebrities were desired, the stat should be called, "New Celebrities in the Shop".

I'm not certain if I reported this new insight to Yvonne Jentzsch in my weekly report to her. Maybe not, because no one at CCLA, including Yvonne seemed to be very concerned in getting more big name celebrities on lines. Her Org was growing by leaps and bounds, From a couple of staff members to 150 or so staff members in only 1 1/2 years and her public did have perhaps 8 or so big name celebrities and perhaps 10-12 others who were not household names but could be considered celebrities. The idea was that Yvonne knew what she was doing and had grown a large and flourishing Org almost overnight so the idea was not to rock the boat.

However, back at Flag, somebody - it almost had to be LRH or perhaps Diana Hubbard, who decided that CC was more of just an upstat Class IV Org than a genuine Celebrity Centre. Word went up in October of 1973 to find that "Why" and as luck would have it, finding that "Why" was assigned as my first duty, even though I had never done the Data Series Evaluator Course.

Fortunately, I already knew the "why" so I just blurted it out to my Senior, Sandy. She looked at me with the glee of insanity both at my "Why" and also at my handling, which was to just rename the Stat by changing the word 'Body' to the word 'Celebrity'. Sandy ordered me not to go any further with my "Why" which was the correct "Why". I tried 3 Evals, but always arrived at my correct Why. She ripped my papers into shreds and threw them in my face or stomped on them in the waste basket. Finally, she assigned me the condition of Danger and did my Eval herself. I read the monstrosity which she created. It was many pages long and was a very bureaucratic and stilted piece of work. It was so boring that after a few pages of reading it, I began doping off. One thing I knew for certain was that CC staff would not be capable of implementing such a program and even if they did , doing those dozens and dozens of steps would have absolutely no effect whatsoever on CCLA bringing in more genuine Celebrities.

True to my prediction, Sandy's Eval was implemented but no perceivable change in stats took place. Here on ESMB, I found out 3 or 4 years ago that around 1998 or 1999, someone figured out that the stat should be changed and it was changed to exactly what I had recommended 36 years earlier. Not only that but people on CC lines who were not actual celebrities were ordered to transfer out of CCLA and into the L.A. Org, AOLA or ASHO.

So there it was, I had a Bachelor's degree in Math with a minor in physics and had worked as a professional scientific computer programmer in the Apollo Space Program for 9 years. I worked with people who knew how to solve problems and knew what they were doing. Many of the Engineers and Scientists whom I worked with were Cal Tech and MIT caliber people who really knew conceptually engineering, physics and math. When it came to living life with gusto, most of them weren't that smart, though there were a few exceptions. These guys were book smart and when I say smart, I mean super smart but most were not street smart!! I knew enough to understand what they wanted and in those pre home computer days, I had to transfer their calculations and equations into computer code and design intricate programs to solve their equations. Also, I had to command the computer to print our their instructions in graph form so that their figures could be readily analyzed. Finally there was tech writing, and I had to write up detailed user manuals for all my programs.

In closing, I will say, just to tell the truth as I see it, that with my education and background, I was able to spot an outpoint just by paying attention to what was being said at a staff meeting and then come up with a spot on "Why" and a simple "Fix", which was to simply change one word in the name of one particular stat.

We were sold the lie that WOG education was virtually worthless while studying LRH data, such as the Data Evaluators Course, was of infinite value. I bought into this horseshit and went along with the lie. 40 years later, I saw the actual truth. Sandy S. should have been shining my shoes but on the Apollo, the situation was reversed. Not only that, but at every turn, Sandy and many. but not all, of the trolls and robots who were present there in the Flag Bureaux not only had me shining their shoes but they were rubbing my face in the shoe polish at every opportunity which they could find.

In summary, just because LRH said something doesn't mean all that much to me. Some of his stuff works and some of it not only doesn't work but it also makes things worse, often much worse. Everything he said or wrote has to be evaluated before putting any of it into use.

when one realizes Hubbard's Clear & OT levels are simply "sublime", one can be free of Hubbard's notions of Clear & OT. (or one can read the idenics book to understand how Hubbard evaluated, which is persuasion, hypnosis, brainwashing or whatever one wishes to call it)

For the state of "clear" and "ot" are simply sublime.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sublime def #2.

Hubbard said first and foremost he was a writer. Well, look to Hubbards education at his George Washington University, he got good grades in English and Rhetoric. And in fact said to his Dean Wilbur that he, Hubbard, would be using Dean Wilburs book on Rhetoric in 1936 to write a book in the future.

Sublime writing is a part of Rhetoric. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longinus_(literature)

So why did Hubbard say he was a Nuclear Physicist, when in fact he got an F or D in the subject? Why did he lie?

Answer, to establish Credibility. That is Ethos, Rhetoric, one part of the 3 means of persuasion.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/

In the modern day, people will write their resume for seeking a new job, and what do people do, but glorify their accomplishments in their work experience. This is sublime, whether a person realizes it or not.

This is what politicians do, this is what everybody does whether they realize it or not.

And Hubbard sure as hell realized it to control.
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

there goes the engram theory, even in the OT levels of getting to basic basic or the great wall of fire. :laugh:

there is a sucker born every minute.

This post is on topic and the comment being stated is worthy of consideration. That being said, IMO there is a quantum jump in logic being made which is not at all obvious. I am referring to the line, "there goes the engram theory, even in the OT levels of getting to basic basic or the great wall of fire.

Even if you accept Gib's and Leon's premise that aberration is based on improper use of one or more of one's abilities, I don't see how Gib's conclusion immediately follows.

Let's take an example where someone's aberration concerns one's ability to do basic math. Let's say that one person simply lacks this ability and this causes him to miscalculate some distances while driving so that he crashes and thus experiences impact and then damage to one of his body parts. If such an incident existed for this fictional person, how would Gib's conclusions stated above automatically be seen to be true.

I look at this over and over and I just don't see how Gib's conclusion automatically becomes so easy to see that it becomes a given, not even requiring an explanation. It is extremely easy to construct counter examples which don't align with Gib's conclusions.

For example, if one's aberration concerned his ability to do math, wouldn't it seem like a good idea to regress back to the earliest point where his ability to do math first became compromised and prevented him from operating competently. That point in time for that person could be considered an engram if pain and unconsciousness were present in the incident or a secondary engram if those weren't present.

Hubbard's Printed Definitions of Aberration form the Tech Dictionary.
I have with me a Tech Dictionary by Hubbard, Copyrighted in 1975. The main definitions are as follows:
#1 - A departure from rational thought or behavior...It means basically to err, to make mistakes or more specifically to have fixed ideas which are not true. Hubbard elaborates further, "Taken in its scientific sense, it would also mean the lack of straightness or to see crookedly...as a man who sees a horse thinks he sees an elephant.

Aberrated conduct would be wrong conduct, or conduct not supported by reason. When a person has engrams, these tend to deflect what would ge his normal ability to perceive truth and bring about an aberrated view of situations ........
#2 - An aberrated person wanders from his self-determined course.
#3. Mental derangement
#4. The aberree's reactions to and difficulties with his current environment.
#5. The manifestation of an engram and is serious only when it influences the competence of the individual in his environment.
#6. The degree of residual plus or minus randomity .....

I have no doubt that Hubbard made the statements which Leon and Gib have heard on tape but why would those definitions trump the written definitions in Hubbard's Tech Dictionary. One of Hubbard's maxims was that if it isn't written it isn't true and another maxim had to do with the date Hubbard stated something, with the most recent date always outranking earlier definitions. Clearly, those who study Hubbard must use the written definitions from his 1976 Tech Dictionary over some comments he made on tape, many years earlier.
Lakey
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thank you for your fine post Commander. As regards children being placed in the chain locker, by 1973, the only year that I was on the Apollo, the "gen" or gossip around the ship was that in the ship's earlier days, the practice of throwing crew overboard if LRH considered that they screwed up or putting people in the chain locker if they screwed up had taken place years earlier but had been stopped several years prior to 1973.

I believe that it was CO2 who published a lot of materials on John McMaster, Clear #1, and in those materials, as I recall, though I may be incorrect, there is an anecdote where McMaster came back from representing COS at the United Nations and as soon as he arrived onboord the Apollo, some panicked crew member told him that a very young lad, perhaps 3 or 4, had been put in the chain locker by LRH for several days and this staff member was afraid that he might be in the process of catching a serious disease.

The story continues, saying that LRH was sleeping at the time so McMaster ordered someone to open the chain locker and remove the child, dry him off, put him in warm clothing and take him to the MLO (Medical Liason Officer) to be treated and cared for. As soon as LRH woke up, so the story continues, McMaster stormed in to see him and said to him, "What the Hell do you Think You are Doing?" LRH responded that children were thetans with young bodies and that they needed to be treated as such and not cut any slack when they screwed up.

The incident between the two men was then dropped but a short time later, Johnny M. was offloaded from the ship. I don't remember if he was Comm Eved or Fitness Boarded or what but he was kicked off the ship. That is all I remember of the anecdote. You can probably find the full story if you Google it and filll in the parts that I no longer recall.
Lakey

the story i've read on j mc/chain locker/child is in coreyden's book. it was the deaf girl in for five days and a woman appealed to johnny who went o the old man who said "o god. i didn't know. well get her out"

i've always had a general impression of hubbard as someone who often responded to appeals and the people around him as being reticent to appeal lightly but responsible for doing so when it must be done.

to me, an acceptable balance. let the old goat push the envelope but have the guts to yank his chain if it must be yanked. there were apparently an awful lot of the right kind of people near the old sonofabitch

the thing is dying now. they're fighting "defeatist" attitudes in their ranks. but it was quite a thing while it lived

and...

i don't know what, but somthing will rise from the ashes
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For example, if one's aberration concerned his ability to do math, wouldn't it seem like a good idea to regress back to the earliest point where his ability to do math first became compromised and prevented him from operating competently. That point in time for that person could be considered an engram if pain and unconsciousness were present in the incident or a secondary engram if those weren't present.

well, you're getting closer. Drop the pain & unconsciousness or secondary engram from your training/thoughts and you are getting closer yet.

It's all decisions a person makes to hisself. What one says to hisself certaintly sticks, hubbard got that right (but probably stole from another). Except hubbard turned it into a long drawn out lifetime mindfuk = Bridge to Freedom = turning square ballbearings into round ball bearings ( or in other words Scientologists following Ron) = $ = cult

Like I said earlier, this is all covered in the Idenics book, and not in scientology terms.

yes, it's true, I'm not a good writer. I never had the ability from nature. I certainty makes leaps of logic, as I can't put them into words easily. That's why I reference a lot in my postings, to fill the gaps, as others say it better than me.
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

well, you're getting closer. Drop the pain & unconsciousness or secondary engram from your training/thoughts and you are getting closer yet.

It's all decisions a person makes to hisself. What one says to hisself certaintly sticks, hubbard got that right (but probably stole from another). Except hubbard turned it into a long drawn out lifetime mindfuk = Bridge to Freedom = turning square ballbearings into round ball bearings ( or in other words Scientologists following Ron) = $ = cult

Like I said earlier, this is all covered in the Idenics book, and not in scientology terms.

yes, it's true, I'm not a good writer. I never had the ability from nature. I certainty makes leaps of logic, as I can't put them into words easily. That's why I reference a lot in my postings, to fill the gaps, as others say it better than me.

Well, we are getting much closer to agreement here.

I didn't really want to put in the Dianetic terms "engram" and "secondary engram" but since you were attacking Dianetic procedures, I felt that to respond directly to your attack, it was necessary to insert those into my post. Also, I was thinking how Leon might accept my response because if I'm not mistaking, he stills believes that Dianetics is valid.

Sure, my statement which you cite is clearer and more to the point when those two descriptives are left off. On your comment that 'it's all decisions a person makes to himself, what one says to himself that sticks, I agree.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Well, we are getting much closer to agreement here.

I didn't really want to put in the Dianetic terms "engram" and "secondary engram" but since you were attacking Dianetic procedures, I felt that to respond directly to your attack, it was necessary to insert those into my post. Also, I was thinking how Leon might accept my response because if I'm not mistaking, he stills believes that Dianetics is valid.

Sure, my statement which you cite is clearer and more to the point when those two descriptives are left off. On your comment that 'it's all decisions a person makes to himself, what one says to himself that sticks, I agree.

I will always attack Dianetics, for it is fraud, pretended knowledge of how the mind works.

And the COS still promotes this fraud hidden now under the guise of religion.

It is a hellvahoax.
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I will always attack Dianetics, for it is fraud, pretended knowledge of how the mind works.

And the COS still promotes this fraud hidden now under the guise of religion.

It is a hellvahoax.

well gibby...

you got a position and you are going to hold to it and that's just fine

personally, i just flipped my van out on rte 50 and after being medevac'd by chopper to reno getting cat-scanned and bounced on to the street i ran the incident in my mind up to the point of impact where the windscreen shattered and the roof caved in and man that IMPACT! was near as solid as when it happened. i ran it three more times and it was just as solid each time and it was getting me a tad woozy. and then i came up with a thought vaguely resembling a "cognition" and ran it through again and the image looked and sounded just the same but no more solid impact and i continued through it until the van came to a rest and i felt physically better

this all accords with dianetic theory

so you can hold your position and bolster it by citing the acts of scammers but i'm holding my own empirically gained position
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

well gibby...

you got a position and you are going to hold to it and that's just fine

personally, i just flipped my van out on rte 50 and after being medevac'd by chopper to reno getting cat-scanned and bounced on to the street i ran the incident in my mind up to the point of impact where the windscreen shattered and the roof caved in and man that IMPACT! was near as solid as when it happened. i ran it three more times and it was just as solid each time and it was getting me a tad woozy. and then i came up with a thought vaguely resembling a "cognition" and ran it through again and the image looked and sounded just the same but no more solid impact and i continued through it until the van came to a rest and i felt physically better

this all accords with dianetic theory

so you can hold your position and bolster it by citing the acts of scammers but i'm holding my own empirically gained position

I'm glad you survived.

According to Dianetic theory, it's the words spoken during unconsciousness that act as hypnotic commands, thereby turning a person into a robot to the words spoken during unconsciousness.

Did you go unconscious and were there words spoken when you were unconsciousness?

And, if so, did you recall those words so as to remove their hypnotic effect on you?
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm glad you survived.

According to Dianetic theory, it's the words spoken during unconsciousness that act as hypnotic commands, thereby turning a person into a robot to the words spoken during unconsciousness.

Did you go unconscious and were there words spoken when you were unconsciousness?

And, if so, did you recall those words so as to remove their hypnotic effect on you?

in dmsmh (and also in the original thesis) hubbard places great emphasis on verbal content of engrams. i think there is some truth to it but i tend to think it is other than precise

i was alone at the time and to busy with present time reality to talk to myself so there's no verbal content. yes. i did go unconscious. twice. for a fraction of a second when the wheels hit the gully and flipped the van and again for a fraction of a second with the impact upside down that flipped it back the other way. i'm fairly strongful and willful and came back to conscious real quick both times. when trying to run through the incident the second impact was the hard one. after the fourth try i felt like i was just beating my head against a wall and then it came undone and i could continue through the darkly aware moment airborne, weightless, eyes closed holding the wheel tight then rumbling about as i landed on all fours and came to a stop. and the painful frozen psychic energy melted. and i felt better. not to say i felt good...

but as to ron's central idea of dianetics, i don't think that's entirely accurate. what i find more accurate is all the ideas the central semi-falacy generates. "time track", "anaten", "restimulation", "circuitry", "valences" etc., etc...


and thanx pal, i too am glad i survived with but a pulled muscle...
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

in dmsmh (and also in the original thesis) hubbard places great emphasis on verbal content of engrams. i think there is some truth to it but i tend to think it is other than precise

i was alone at the time and to busy with present time reality to talk to myself so there's no verbal content. yes. i did go unconscious. twice. for a fraction of a second when the wheels hit the gully and flipped the van and again for a fraction of a second with the impact upside down that flipped it back the other way. i'm fairly strongful and willful and came back to conscious real quick both times. when trying to run through the incident the second impact was the hard one. after the fourth try i felt like i was just beating my head against a wall and then it came undone and i could continue through the darkly aware moment airborne, weightless, eyes closed holding the wheel tight then rumbling about as i landed on all fours and came to a stop. and the painful frozen psychic energy melted. and i felt better. not to say i felt good...

but as to ron's central idea of dianetics, i don't think that's entirely accurate. what i find more accurate is all the ideas the central semi-falacy generates. "time track", "anaten", "restimulation", "circuitry", "valences" etc., etc...


and thanx pal, i too am glad i survived with but a pulled muscle...

Hey, I'm glad you agree it's pretended knowledge.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

in dmsmh (and also in the original thesis) hubbard places great emphasis on verbal content of engrams. i think there is some truth to it but i tend to think it is other than precise

i was alone at the time and to busy with present time reality to talk to myself so there's no verbal content. yes. i did go unconscious. twice. for a fraction of a second when the wheels hit the gully and flipped the van and again for a fraction of a second with the impact upside down that flipped it back the other way. i'm fairly strongful and willful and came back to conscious real quick both times. when trying to run through the incident the second impact was the hard one. after the fourth try i felt like i was just beating my head against a wall and then it came undone and i could continue through the darkly aware moment airborne, weightless, eyes closed holding the wheel tight then rumbling about as i landed on all fours and came to a stop. and the painful frozen psychic energy melted. and i felt better. not to say i felt good...

but as to ron's central idea of dianetics, i don't think that's entirely accurate. what i find more accurate is all the ideas the central semi-falacy generates. "time track", "anaten", "restimulation", "circuitry", "valences" etc., etc...


and thanx pal, i too am glad i survived with but a pulled muscle...

Thanks for notifying us of the incident, Commander. Its good to hear that you are recovering and I am glad that you were able to apply dianetics and run the incident through a few times and get some relief. Of course, your experience is just one single instance and it is anecdotal so, scientifically, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Anecdotal evidence does have a place in this world. If many people experience similar gains, it is a factor to consider.

To me, the most interesting anecdotal evidence is when someone goes to a big Jesus rally, such as those which were given by Billy Graham and they accept Jesus as their savior. There is no science there at all but more often then not, the person will shoot up to enthusiasm or exhilaration and often achieve some major healing and do much better in life, at least for a while. Billy's sermon worked like a charm and made the person happier. Here is a case where there is no scientific explanation but there are a very large number of anecdotal success stories. The gains have to be attributed to faith.

How can you blame someone for going this route? I never went for it because I have an obsession to seek out truths but even though I would not take that path myself, I have no bone to pick with those who do.

I believe in allowing a person to believe in and use whatever works for them as long as it doesn't hurt others. That's where I and a few others on ESMB differ with a large group of others. Many others, but far from all, demand compliance with their own personal beliefs. Hubbard might well be the poster boy for leaders demanding TOTAL compliance. I don't want to emulate Hubbard in this respect, however others who hate Hubbard and his tech are with him on this one important point, "Its my way or the highway!!!"

On last thing Commander, what is the prognosis for your recovery. Will you fully recover without any permanent injuries? I sure hope so! Keep us posted!
Lakey
 
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Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thanks for notifying us of the incident, Commander. Its good to hear that you are recovering and I am glad that you were able to apply dianetics and run the incident through a few times and get some relief. Of course, your experience is just one single instance and it is anecdotal so, scientifically, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Anecdotal evidence does have a place in this world. If many people experience similar gains, it is a factor to consider.

To me, the most interesting anecdotal evidence is when someone goes to a big Jesus rally, such as those which were given by Billy Graham and they accept Jesus as their savior. There is no science there at all but more often then not, the person will shoot up to enthusiasm or exhilaration and often achieve some major healing and do much better in life, at least for a while. Billy's sermon worked like a charm and made the person happier. Here is a case where there is no scientific explanation but there are a very large number of anecdotal success stories. The gains have to be attributed to faith.

How can you blame someone for going this route? I never went for it because I have an obsession to seek out truths but even though I would not take that path myself, I have no bone to pick with those who do.

I believe in allowing a person to believe in and use whatever works for them as long as it doesn't hurt others. That's where I and a few others on ESMB differ with a large group of others. Many others, but far from all, demand compliance with their own personal beliefs. Hubbard might well be the poster boy for leaders demanding TOTAL compliance. I don't want to emulate Hubbard in this respect, however others who hate Hubbard and his tech are with him on this one important point, "Its my way or the highway!!!"

On last thing Commander, what is the prognosis for your recovery. Will you fully recover without any permanent injuries? I sure hope so! Keep us posted!
Lakey

The scientific explanations has been around for quite awhile, its called endorphins, seratonin adrenalin etc and has little do with faith and more to
do with highschool pep rally or a couple beers on a saturday night :coolwink:
 
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