The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I wanted to add a bit more to this post so here it is:
ON THIS VIDEO, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF HUBBARD PIECES OF HUBBARD TECH, ONE TAUGHT TO HIM BY HIS GIRL FRIEND AND THE OTHER INITIATED BY HER AND THEN DEVELOPED BY HUBBARD. The first piece of tech is "Reach and Withdraw" Hubbard was living in Palm Springs, CA and was depressed and could not write books which had been ordered from him by his publisher. When he tried to write he would turn on headaches and other somatics. His girlfriend Barbara had studied quite a bit of Pyschology and she knew a drill which she thought might help him.

She put a blank piece of paper on his writing table and told him to stare at it for a while and to write or not write as he saw fit. For a while he did not write anything but then eventually picked up his pen and started writing a bit and then stopped. This went on for a while with Hubbard in front of his writing space, looking at his paper, pens and typewriter and handling them as he saw fit. Barbara left the scene for awhile and to her amazement, when she got back he was writing like crazy and was no longer depressed.

Another time she visited him somewhere else and he was extremely depressed again. She asked him to describe his feeling to her. He thought for a while and then wrote out the word "Apathy". When Hubbard did that he began to feel better. From that humble beginning, which never would have occurred without Barbara's help, he developed the first Tone Chart, later to by called the Tone Scale which appeared in the Book One Dianetics in 1950. On this one, Hubbard developed the Tone Scale on his own be he did need a jump start from his girl friend or he may never have written it.
Lakey

geez i wish i had some earphones, so many great submissions on this board require earphones...

yeah...

hubbard displays NORMAL AND USUAL artistic temperment and tempermentality; psychic and emotional labor pains and growing pains. the rotten fucktard was giving birth to something revolutionary and expanding human knowledge and horizons...

this usually ain't a pretty process...

unless you're some weirdo like myself, thrilled and drained by the awesomeness of coaching a beautiful mate through childbirth

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I don't care how many times you try denying, minimizing, diminishing, covering up, obfuscating here at ESMB regarding L. Con Hubbard's/$cientology's history of child abuse I will post eyewitness accounts and links.

"He put this 4½ year old little boy - Derek Greene - into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container, it's wet, it's full of water and seaweed, it smells bad. But Derek was sitting up, on the chain, in this place, on his own, in the dark, for two days and two nights... people heard him crying. That is sheer, total brutality. That is child abuse."

"Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-ness by shoving her down there! This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on."

"McMaster remembers once being asked by the Master at Arms to come and help her, He pulled up the wedge from the chain-locker, a dank and unhealthy part of the ship into which offenders were flung without food as a punishment. Out crawled a little girl who turned out to be a deaf-mute who had been unable to write her name and had incurred the Commodore's wrath."

Affidavit of Monica Pignotti

"I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. The boy was being put in the chain locker by three teen-age L. Ron Hubbard messengers. I witnessed this happening several times to people, even though I never experienced it myself."

Interview with David Mayo

"The length of time for children would vary, but no one was there less than a day. The average was a week or two. Three weeks was about the maximum. Age didn't matter. The youngest kids were 5, 6 or 7. Old, young, men, women, big, little; it wouldn't matter because to Scientologists the being is ageless so you don't think in terms of how young or old someone is."

Little Mark and Tony

"The four-year-old boy could no longer cry. He had been nearly 48 hours in the chain locker of the flagship _Apollo_ and his entire body was aching from his efforts to chip off rust. His knees and hands were raw with cuts and bruises. His voice was raspy from crying, and he was desperately afraid."

From the book "Messiah or Madman" by Bent Corydon

"The chain locker was dangerous. Located at the very bow of the ship under the water-line. It was the place where the section of the chain not in the water was stored. When the entire chain was brought up it filled most of this comparatively small, wet, dark, and some- times rat-infested locker. The only thing that was holding the chain in the locker was what is called a devil's claw, which was located well above the locker on the deck of the ship. If someone were to kick the claw, the entire chain would be pulled at high speed out of the locker by the weight of the anchor, and anyone down in the locker could very easily get caught in the outgoing chain and be yanked to his death."

Lawrence Wollersheim interviews Jesse Prince who was 2nd in command of Scientology

"Just looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is better than milk. . . I've seen those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they'd just lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream itself to sleep. . . They make them do what's called rocks and shows, where if they do something that they weren't told to do, they have to do sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished. From the cradle the children are punished."

Delphi puts sick boy in solitary confinement.
Biased Journalism Volume, December 25, 1996

"The boy was locked in a small room with no TV, no entertainment and no company, for almost the entire time. He was fed and an adult came to check on him a few times during the day. . . an ethics officer, who stood by while the child talked to his mother. The message was clear, "don't you dare complain."

Affidavit of Tonja C. Burden
25 January 1980

"On a number of occasions, I saw people placed in the 'chain lockers' of the boat on direct orders of Hubbard. These lockers were small, smelly holes, covered by grates where the chain for the anchor was stored. I saw one boy held in there for 30 nights, crying and begging to be released. He was only allowed out to clean the bilges where the sewer and refuse of the ship collected. I believe his 'crimes' were taking or using a musical instrument, I believe a flute, of someone else without permission. I also saw a young boy and a young girl thrown in the chain lockers at separate times because of romantic involvements they had with other people."

Life aboard Scientology's ship 'The Apollo' in 1968
Posting of Steve Manning 8 Mar 2000

"I was twelve years old and witnessed children younger than myself being thrown into the chain locker (a room for storing the anchor while at sea) for days on end until they persuaded the ethics officer that they were not enemies. Physical abuse of children was rife.

Scientology's Shocking Treatment of Children Held in a Suburban Labor Camp by Tony Ortega
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_shane_kelsey_rpf.php

Scientology is child abuse by Dennis Erlich
http://www.xenu-directory.net/mirrors/www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_de1.html

Jenna Miscavige Hill (ABC Nightline)
[video=youtube;ExszasJngV8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExszasJngV8[/video]

hi FBM!

good to see you're paying attention

if you have any direct questions to ask me about these or any other items i would quite happy to answer and/or respond

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Happy Birth to Mozart!!!

Today in Wolfgang Mozart's birthday! He was born in 1756 and died too young in 1791.

Here is one of his most beautiful arias from all his operas. It is a duet between Pamina and Papageno were they dialogue on the joy and nobility of great harmony between Man and Woman. Don't forget that Mozart and most of those who participated in this opera were all members of the Masonic Order. There were several lodges in Vienna at the time, 1791. Mozart was Catholic by birth and remained Catholic all his life. He was not devout but he did write a very large body of religious music during his career. Anyway, here is the aria, one of the most beautiful things I know of and besides being beautiful and light hearted, not deadly serious as one might expect.

BTW, the man and woman doing the singing are not the lovers. Papageno, the man, is working for the Prince who is coming to save the woman Tamina. Even so, the opera text was designed for two people who were not in love to sing the song of love.

Here is the video. This is a movie presentation of the Magic Flute made directed by the great Swedish film maker Ingmar Bergman and it is sung in Swedish. Unfortunately, you tube no longer has a clip of just that one area from the Magic Flute but they do present the entire opera. To see the aria which I described above, you have to go to 36:49 into the opera and the area runs until 39:53.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGVO2hCi15w

If past life memories have any validity, I performed in that opera as Sarastro who has a deep bass voice. I, then only 24, was buddies with Mozart and the entire troupe. What a time we had in those days! When I got to CCLA in October of 1971, I saw a lot of similarities to CCLA and our opera company back in Vienna in the 1790's. Of course, I don't have total certainty on that being true but it sure feels likes its true.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

ahhh...

"the good old days" eh?

i was probably shoveling horseshit in some vienna stable at the time

'twas fine with me; i got hear mozart...

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I don't care how many times you try denying, minimizing, diminishing, covering up, obfuscating here at ESMB regarding L. Con Hubbard's/$cientology's history of child abuse I will post eyewitness accounts and links.

"He put this 4½ year old little boy - Derek Greene - into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container, it's wet, it's full of water and seaweed, it smells bad. But Derek was sitting up, on the chain, in this place, on his own, in the dark, for two days and two nights... people heard him crying. That is sheer, total brutality. That is child abuse."

"Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-ness by shoving her down there! This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on."

"McMaster remembers once being asked by the Master at Arms to come and help her, He pulled up the wedge from the chain-locker, a dank and unhealthy part of the ship into which offenders were flung without food as a punishment. Out crawled a little girl who turned out to be a deaf-mute who had been unable to write her name and had incurred the Commodore's wrath."

Affidavit of Monica Pignotti

"I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. The boy was being put in the chain locker by three teen-age L. Ron Hubbard messengers. I witnessed this happening several times to people, even though I never experienced it myself."

Interview with David Mayo

"The length of time for children would vary, but no one was there less than a day. The average was a week or two. Three weeks was about the maximum. Age didn't matter. The youngest kids were 5, 6 or 7. Old, young, men, women, big, little; it wouldn't matter because to Scientologists the being is ageless so you don't think in terms of how young or old someone is."

Little Mark and Tony

"The four-year-old boy could no longer cry. He had been nearly 48 hours in the chain locker of the flagship _Apollo_ and his entire body was aching from his efforts to chip off rust. His knees and hands were raw with cuts and bruises. His voice was raspy from crying, and he was desperately afraid."

From the book "Messiah or Madman" by Bent Corydon

"The chain locker was dangerous. Located at the very bow of the ship under the water-line. It was the place where the section of the chain not in the water was stored. When the entire chain was brought up it filled most of this comparatively small, wet, dark, and some- times rat-infested locker. The only thing that was holding the chain in the locker was what is called a devil's claw, which was located well above the locker on the deck of the ship. If someone were to kick the claw, the entire chain would be pulled at high speed out of the locker by the weight of the anchor, and anyone down in the locker could very easily get caught in the outgoing chain and be yanked to his death."

Lawrence Wollersheim interviews Jesse Prince who was 2nd in command of Scientology

"Just looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is better than milk. . . I've seen those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they'd just lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream itself to sleep. . . They make them do what's called rocks and shows, where if they do something that they weren't told to do, they have to do sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished. From the cradle the children are punished."

Delphi puts sick boy in solitary confinement.
Biased Journalism Volume, December 25, 1996

"The boy was locked in a small room with no TV, no entertainment and no company, for almost the entire time. He was fed and an adult came to check on him a few times during the day. . . an ethics officer, who stood by while the child talked to his mother. The message was clear, "don't you dare complain."

Affidavit of Tonja C. Burden
25 January 1980

"On a number of occasions, I saw people placed in the 'chain lockers' of the boat on direct orders of Hubbard. These lockers were small, smelly holes, covered by grates where the chain for the anchor was stored. I saw one boy held in there for 30 nights, crying and begging to be released. He was only allowed out to clean the bilges where the sewer and refuse of the ship collected. I believe his 'crimes' were taking or using a musical instrument, I believe a flute, of someone else without permission. I also saw a young boy and a young girl thrown in the chain lockers at separate times because of romantic involvements they had with other people."

Life aboard Scientology's ship 'The Apollo' in 1968
Posting of Steve Manning 8 Mar 2000

"I was twelve years old and witnessed children younger than myself being thrown into the chain locker (a room for storing the anchor while at sea) for days on end until they persuaded the ethics officer that they were not enemies. Physical abuse of children was rife.

Scientology's Shocking Treatment of Children Held in a Suburban Labor Camp by Tony Ortega
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_shane_kelsey_rpf.php

Scientology is child abuse by Dennis Erlich
http://www.xenu-directory.net/mirrors/www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_de1.html

Jenna Miscavige Hill (ABC Nightline)
[video=youtube;ExszasJngV8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExszasJngV8[/video]

I'm with you on this topic, Free Being Me. I am totally against mistreating children. The excuse which Hubbard gave that they are old beings but just in a new body, never made sense to me, even when I was fully gung ho. I know that John Mc Master was away from the ship promoting Scn and when he got back the boy was in the chain locker and Mc Master went and let him out and returned him to his parents. He then went in to see Hubbard and challenged him on what Hubbard had ordered. As a result, Mc Master was soon offloaded out of the Sea Org. His status of being Clear #1 did not cut any slack with LRH. I'm not sure what shore story was used to justify getting rid of Mc Master who was so popular among Scientologists but I'm sure that some crazy shore story was created to justify Mc Master's departure.

I will say this, If Birdy, is loyal to Hubbard and believes that Hubbard did more good than harm, that is his honest opinion. I respect him as a person and am not going to say negatives about him if he believes Hubbard to be a good man. Because of Hubbard, I had some major personal gains but lost my brother to disconnection and wasted a lot of money and ended up losing a house in foreclosure. I see the evil in Hubbard, he appears to have had a very heavy case and in essence, he wanted all of us to run his case as well, assuming all humans had the same case. Yet, I recognize that he has helped me and others I know.

It seems to be a fact now that a substantial number of people hate Hubbard while a substantial number of people still idolize him and then some see both good and evil in him and his works. It seems as if there are about 1/3 in each category. That is really amazing. Whatever arguments you have and however strongly you feel about your opinion, I think it is great to put up factual posts and videos to support your points of view. That is activism and generally speaking it is a good thing. No one is going to get all other people to join in his or her opinion but you will probably make some converts Feelings may be strong on both sides but things don't have to get ugly.

As Rodney King (of the Watts Riots in L.A. fame in the early 90's) once said, "Can't we just all get along?"
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I'm with you on this topic, Free Being Me. I am totally against mistreating children. The excuse which Hubbard gave that they are old beings but just in a new body, never made sense to me, even when I was fully gung ho. I know that John Mc Master was away from the ship promoting Scn and when he got back the boy was in the chain locker and Mc Master went and let him out and returned him to his parents. He then went in to see Hubbard and challenged him on what Hubbard had ordered. As a result, Mc Master was soon offloaded out of the Sea Org. His status of being Clear #1 did not cut any slack with LRH. I'm not sure what shore story was used to justify getting rid of Mc Master who was so popular among Scientologists but I'm sure that some crazy shore story was created to justify Mc Master's departure.

I will say this, If Birdy, is loyal to Hubbard and believes that Hubbard did more good than harm, that is his honest opinion. I respect him as a person and am not going to say negatives about him if he believes Hubbard to be a good man. Because of Hubbard, I had some major personal gains but lost my brother to disconnection and wasted a lot of money and ended up losing a house in foreclosure. I see the evil in Hubbard, he appears to have had a very heavy case and in essence, he wanted all of us to run his case as well, assuming all humans had the same case. Yet, I recognize that he has helped me and others I know.

It seems to be a fact now that a substantial number of people hate Hubbard while a substantial number of people still idolize him and then some see both good and evil in him and his works. It seems as if there are about 1/3 in each category. That is really amazing. Whatever arguments you have and however strongly you feel about your opinion, I think it is great to put up factual posts and videos to support your points of view. That is activism and generally speaking it is a good thing. No one is going to get all other people to join in his or her opinion but you will probably make some converts Feelings may be strong on both sides but things don't have to get ugly.

As Rodney King (of the Watts Riots in L.A. fame in the early 90's) once said, "Can't we just all get along?"
Lakey

i too am against child abuse and do not endorse what happened to derek

i wouldn't call myself a loyalist of the randy old goat but he produced brilliance and is apparently not guilty of anything not easily forgiven

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i too am against child abuse and do not endorse what happened to derek

i wouldn't call myself a loyalist of the randy old goat but he produced brilliance and is apparently not guilty of anything not easily forgiven

That last line of years is really quite remarkable, "not guilty of anything not easily forgiven:!

If you believe that, how can you say that you a not a loyalist?

Let's see, he is guilty of breaking up families, making false claims and thus not delivering what he promised, torturing children. We have a young lady joining the S.O. and going to the Apollo in the late 60's and at first raving to her parents, in a letter, how great scientology is and then she suddenly commits suicide. Her Father comes to the Apollo and asks to speak to Hubbard concerning the death of his 18 year old daughter and Hubbard refuses to see him.

How about claiming things that other people developed and donated to him were developed by himself and then writing KSW #1 where he makes it policy that no one else but him was ever able to develop tech?

How about taking over all the Scio Missions in 1982. A half dozen or so top missionaires were making a good living running Scientology Missions. They provided basic Scn training and auditing and then funneled people to the Orgs in droves. They followed the rules and were successful in making some money for themselves while helping Hubbard to expand his movement. Hubbard did not like that someone other than him was making money in Scn so he had all those missionaires declared Suppressive, right on the spot with no hearings, as policy called for. He then took over their missions and effectively stole millions of dollars in cash and buildings from those who were helping him grow. Do you easily forgive that action of Hubbards?

We have Hubbard, married to Polly with two young children, Nibs and Katy, taking off for New York to pursue writing and leaving his family high and dry, paying nothing to support them. He then takes up with various women, has lots of affairs and ultimately marries another woman without divorcing Polly. He fathers a child with his second wife and then divorces her and abandons that child as well and then claims in his interviews that he never had a second wife. To top it all of, he then disowns the child from his second marriage and never sees her nor has any interest in seeing her when she comes to England as a teenager, wanting to get to know her Dad. Do you easily forgivel those crimes?

If you still want to follow Hubbard for the reasons you state, fine. You think his tech is brilliant and the good it has done for people ABSOLVES Hubbard from the various crimes he has committed against others. Fine, as they say in Yiddish, "Fuhr Gezint!" which means "Go in good health but don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

I don't know, maybe I am old fashioned but somehow I don't want to accept as my Spiritual Leader and Teacher a man so flawed and unethical as LRH. That's just me, Birdy, if you choose to feel otherwise, fine. The only thing that really bothers me about your post are the words "easily forgiven". That really fires me up.

If you pondered over the matter long and hard, weighing the good LRH has done against the harm and chose to support the good, I wouldn't have a problem with what you wrote. I would disagree with you, but I would respect your decision. But the fact that you find all Hubbard's crimes easy to forgive is the thing that really bothers me.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

That last line of years is really quite remarkable, "not guilty of anything not easily forgiven:!

If you believe that, how can you say that you a not a loyalist?

Let's see, he is guilty of breaking up families, making false claims and thus not delivering what he promised, torturing children. We have a young lady joining the S.O. and going to the Apollo in the late 60's and at first raving to her parents, in a letter, how great scientology is and then she suddenly commits suicide. Her Father comes to the Apollo and asks to speak to Hubbard concerning the death of his 18 year old daughter and Hubbard refuses to see him.

How about claiming things that other people developed and donated to him were developed by himself and then writing KSW #1 where he makes it policy that no one else but him was ever able to develop tech?

How about taking over all the Scio Missions in 1982. A half dozen or so top missionaires were making a good living running Scientology Missions. They provided basic Scn training and auditing and then funneled people to the Orgs in droves. They followed the rules and were successful in making some money for themselves while helping Hubbard to expand his movement. Hubbard did not like that someone other than him was making money in Scn so he had all those missionaires declared Suppressive, right on the spot with no hearings, as policy called for. He then took over their missions and effectively stole millions of dollars in cash and buildings from those who were helping him grow. Do you easily forgive that action of Hubbards?

We have Hubbard, married to Polly with two young children, Nibs and Katy, taking off for New York to pursue writing and leaving his family high and dry, paying nothing to support them. He then takes up with various women, has lots of affairs and ultimately marries another woman without divorcing Polly. He fathers a child with his second wife and then divorces her and abandons that child as well and then claims in his interviews that he never had a second wife. To top it all of, he then disowns the child from his second marriage and never sees her nor has any interest in seeing her when she comes to England as a teenager, wanting to get to know her Dad. Do you easily forgivel those crimes?

If you still want to follow Hubbard for the reasons you state, fine. You think his tech is brilliant and the good it has done for people ABSOLVES Hubbard from the various crimes he has committed against others. Fine, as they say in Yiddish, "Fuhr Gezint!" which means "Go in good health but don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

I don't know, maybe I am old fashioned but somehow I don't want to accept as my Spiritual Leader and Teacher a man so flawed and unethical as LRH. That's just me, Birdy, if you choose to feel otherwise, fine. The only thing that really bothers me about your post are the words "easily forgiven". That really fires me up.

If you pondered over the matter long and hard, weighing the good LRH has done against the harm and chose to support the good, I wouldn't have a problem with what you wrote. I would disagree with you, but I would respect your decision. But the fact that you find all Hubbard's crimes easy to forgive is the thing that really bothers me.
Lakey

to forgive does not mean you approve of the act

it means you forgive an act of which you do not approve


now something about susan meister...

first, a thumbnail actuarial study:

the sea project lasted eight years and there were seven ships and thousands of people

there was one suicide

this not an alarming rate of suicide

so far a i know she was just some nice sweet somewhat ditzy little girl who one day dcided to pull the "look ma! i'm an asterisk!" trick

and as to ron not meeting her father i'm reminded of richard nixon. there was some controversial tragedy and tricky dickie's advisors were suggesting he meet with some bereaved parents. he thought it over an said "i'd really like to do that but 'Nixon' can't do that" there is nixon himself and then there is "Nixon" the public figure

like everyone else lakey, i tend to suspect some measure of cowardice as part of ron's refusal to meet with susan' father

but...

i'm a christian

my honcho says:

"judge not that thou be not judged"

observe, consider, weigh, discuss etc and so on i'm in for it. i've been on this board five years and i turn my eyes away from nothing, i dodge nothing. pass judgement? on things that occurred in private?

nein, danke...


i never did look at ron from such an admiring view as you held for decades. i think the discomfort of disillusion has allowed the howlers to intimidate you to some degree lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

to forgive does not mean you approve of the act

it means you forgive an act of which you do not approve


now something about susan meister...

first, a thumbnail actuarial study:

the sea project lasted eight years and there were seven ships and thousands of people

there was one suicide

this not an alarming rate of suicide

so far a i know she was just some nice sweet somewhat ditzy little girl who one day dcided to pull the "look ma! i'm an asterisk!" trick

and as to ron not meeting her father i'm reminded of richard nixon. there was some controversial tragedy and tricky dickie's advisors were suggesting he meet with some bereaved parents. he thought it over an said "i'd really like to do that but 'Nixon' can't do that" there is nixon himself and then there is "Nixon" the public figure

like everyone else lakey, i tend to suspect some measure of cowardice as part of ron's refusal to meet with susan' father

but...

i'm a christian

my honcho says:

"judge not that thou be not judged"

observe, consider, weigh, discuss etc and so on i'm in for it. i've been on this board five years and i turn my eyes away from nothing, i dodge nothing. pass judgement? on things that occurred in private?

nein, danke...


i never did look at ron from such an admiring view as you held for decades. i think the discomfort of disillusion has allowed the howlers to intimidate you to some degree lakey

Thanks for your reply to my earlier post. You did not acknowledge my main point which was your use of the term "easily" forgiven. With your Christian doctrine, you are compelled too forgive everybody for doing anything. I don't agree with that doctrine myself but respect Christians and other who do. My question which concerns your use of the word "easily", still remains.

It might be easy for you and other Christians to forgive evil since you are compelled to forgive everything. Let me ask you this. For you as a Christian, is their anything at all which would be difficult for you to forgive?

What about non Christians? Some of us may never forgive Hubbard's evil acts while others may forgive him. I'm guessing that for many of those non Christians who forgive Hubbard, they will experience some difficulty in arriving at the decision to forgive him.

I still say that your use of the term, "easily forgiven" doesn't make much sense. What good is an act of forgiveness if it is mandated by ones religion that he must forgive everybody for all sins? IMO forgiveness doesn't mean much if it is a knee jerk action ordered by one's diety. To have any real meaning, forgiveness needs to be given by the person himself or herself, having studied the situation and coming to the conclusion that a particular sinner is worthy of forgiveness. If someone forgives automatically because his religion orders him to do so, that particular act of forgiveness is virtually meaningless.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i'm not "doctrinal", lakey...

i'm an up close and personal kind of guy

if you're a soul whose thought and action are the result of externally imposed doctrine, disciplines, indoctrinations you got an exoskeleton kaboobski; yer a bug, a cockaroach

ahhh...

but if the true seed has fallen on your spiritual patch of earth and is moistened with your own blood sweat and tears and germinates in The Light of The Son...

if it's vine has grown despite the tares and it's roots spread wide despite the rocky ground

and the fragrance of it's blossom has graced your nose

and the barbs of it's thorns have scratched your heart

if your ship has ever capsized when the leviathan has risen from the deep

if the beast that battered you in the night has had your own face

then you are one who may be fit to say "i forgive"

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i'm not "doctrinal", lakey...

i'm an up close and personal kind of guy

if you're a soul whose thought and action are the result of externally imposed doctrine, disciplines, indoctrinations you got an exoskeleton kaboobski; yer a bug, a cockaroach

ahhh...

but if the true seed has fallen on your spiritual patch of earth and is moistened with your own blood sweat and tears and germinates in The Light of The Son...

and the fragrance of it's blossom has graced your nose

and the barbs of it's thorns have scratched your heart

if your ship has capsized when the leviathan has risen from the deep

if the beast that battered you in the night has had your face

then you are one who may be fit to say "i forgive"

All well and good, but still no mention of why the term "easily forgiven" was used by you. Once again, two questions, #1 - can some things be hard for you to forgive and #2 - you write easily forgiven as if it applies for everyone. You have explained why it is easy for YOU to forgive crimes of that magnitude but the way you wrote it, your sentence implies tacitly that it is easy for OTHERS to forgive Hubbard as well.

Am I interpreting your comment correctly? Either I am interpreting correctly and you just assume that forgiveness of Hubbard is easy for others or I am misinterpreting you and you are saying that it is easy only for you to forgive Hubbard, If the latter is the actual case, then what you are saying is that Hubbard committed no crimes that were not easily forgiven by YOU alone. How others feel about forgiving Hubbard is a subject which you steer clear of. If that is so, then you should have come out and said that.

We've spent quite a bit of ink dissecting this point, so I am giving you the last word and moving on to other topics. Thanks for your many responses.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

All well and good, but still no mention of why the term "easily forgiven" was used by you. Once again, two questions, #1 - can some things be hard for you to forgive and #2 - you write easily forgiven as if it applies for everyone. You have explained why it is easy for YOU to forgive crimes of that magnitude but the way you wrote it, your sentence implies tacitly that it is easy for OTHERS to forgive Hubbard as well.

Am I interpreting your comment correctly? Either I am interpreting correctly and you just assume that forgiveness of Hubbard is easy for others or I am misinterpreting you and you are saying that it is easy only for you to forgive Hubbard, If the latter is the actual case, then what you are saying is that Hubbard committed no crimes that were not easily forgiven by YOU alone. How others feel about forgiving Hubbard is a subject which you steer clear of. If that is so, then you should have come out and said that.

We've spent quite a bit of ink dissecting this point, so I am giving you the last word and moving on to other topics. Thanks for your many responses.
Lakey

well...

question numero uno...

as it happens lakey...

the irish catholic old boyfriend of the lefthanded black irish ex-nun who bore my three sons kidnapped my children and killed my firstborn son

and...

yes lakey...

as it happens it is somewhat of a challenge to rid my heart of a tone four-zip O muthuhfukkin T intention to stick a gat in his face and put a bullet in his head but i can't do that because forty-five years and three days ago at fort lewis washington at 18:03 hrs PST specialist fourth class william otho burdwood jr. US51968348 signed off active duty in The Armed Forces of the United States of America and as the pen scrawled upon the page he silently swore in his heart of hearts that he would lay down all firearms and go naked in the world unarmed so long as he could survive working for PEACE!!!

and, same rules as last year, a card laid is a card played

of course i do know how, gaining the element of surprise, to kill him with my bare hands in less than two seconds and i can't count the number of times i have weighed that option, a number likely to increase in the future

but...

one of the primary sources of civilization is the ancient law of hammurabi which declares adultery by a woman a capital offense for both her and the paramour but if the man shall spare his wife the king will spare his servant and i love her lakey, she was a gutsy broad, the world would be less w/o her...

but yes lakey, the answer to your first question would be yes there are offenses i can find it difficult to forgive and i hopes this is adequate to make the response "clear" as it were...

more to come, i've other threads to attend

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

i'm not "doctrinal", lakey...

i'm an up close and personal kind of guy

if you're a soul whose thought and action are the result of externally imposed doctrine, disciplines, indoctrinations you got an exoskeleton kaboobski; yer a bug, a cockaroach

ahhh...

but if the true seed has fallen on your spiritual patch of earth and is moistened with your own blood sweat and tears and germinates in The Light of The Son...

if it's vine has grown despite the tares and it's roots spread wide despite the rocky ground

and the fragrance of it's blossom has graced your nose

and the barbs of it's thorns have scratched your heart

if your ship has ever capsized when the leviathan has risen from the deep

if the beast that battered you in the night has had your own face

then you are one who may be fit to say "i forgive"

as to your second question...

how could one poor frail mortal sinner speak for everyone or even for all who would cop to being a poor frail mortal sinner?

i think lakey, you have lived long enough to have met enough people to know some of these would find this post good lyrics for their choir

surely you do not mark me as one who would leave no quarter for those who discriminate by other verses?

be assured i would not score the music of the time warp invocation w/o a strong bass counterpoint in D minor

this was the last post of page 2015 of this board's grandest thread. have you not noticed i've interjected historic bookmarkers to parallel page number and anno domini. would you not expect birdsong to be in full voice as we LEAP INTO THE FUTURE!!!?

though i might have prepared something more than a few words off the cuff. if you'll give it a moments thought you might realize if i had set up the closing line articulating a much further sustained litany i'd have a fairly nifty it of poesy there...

(picture and hear this post recited by ernie kovacs in his percy dovetail character lakey)

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

but i digress...

are you interpreting me accurately?

sort of yes and no, i think. you and i see differently and think differently. no. i do not presume to enforce an It Must Be Easily Forgiven on you or others but i do write with something greater than the personal voice which might be heard either as "lo, i am as the voice of one crying in the wilderness" or as "a voice as it were a voice of many multitudes"

and you allude to "crimes of such magnitude"

pifflewidgets

i'm not seeing "crimes of such magnitude" in our brash redhaired kid from the prairie lakey; a four year old child unharmed after being uncomfortable for two days isn't "a crime of such magnitude"

i've studied it all for years lakey. rake it all into a big pile and the howlers don't have squat on the lad

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

" Forgiveness ". It would seem this act of forgiveness is FOR the one doing the forgiving NOT the one receiving it.

It seems an act to free oneself from negative emotions tied to action or inaction of another.

It reminds me of a woman who even 40 plus years after a divorce is still very bitter & very vocal about her X who is no longer in her life.

He? Moved on. Remarried. He never thinks of her. He is a happy man.​

Is this not an instance of where if she could bring herself to forgive she might find a happier life for herself?

There is always the how do we forgive one who not only does not repent but continues their exact same behavior?

Put a child in the chain locker. Forgive. Put another child in the chain locker. Forgive & so on for 40 more laps of inhumanity.

Or the drunk driver driving on a suspended license with 4 DUI convictions that kills your family in a car accident ?

Or the one who molested your child?

Yes, there are extremely difficult situations that many - if not most of us - have faced at one time or another.

Oh, this " forgiveness " thing. What a monster to wrestle. Like there is a person who were it not have wanted ( and still wanting ) to be with my spouse & help reaise our children I'd have long killed. Yep. Flat out murder with premeditation & all that.

But, am I better to hold onto my hate & bitterness to sour my own life with or - gasp - " FORGIVE " that person so *I* can move on & not fixate on my hatred of them ?
Easy ? Nope.

Seems this forgiving business is so highly personal & I've no business whatsoever trying to judge what some one else
" should " or " should not " forgive.

But, I do firmly believe this act of forgiveness is to free oneself - hell, the person being forgiven may not even be aware of being forgiven ( or care ).

Perhaps the root of all this lies in first forgiving ourself.


.....

But, this business of " easy" or "hard" ( ye gads or even to forgive at all ! ) for one to forgive a particular act ot set of actions / inactions ?

What may not step on my toes at all may have crushed the toes of another & vice versa so I think it more than haughty for me to try to tell another what they should / shouldn't find easy / hard to do this forgiveness business with.

When it come to Hubbard ? I suspect each of us has our own set of feelings that - for the most part - run very deeply.

Some people did a course or two & drifted away while others spent decades, tons of money, disconnected from friends & family, faced divorce & even the all too soon passing of friends, family & loved ones. Ain't the same, is it ?

And, in any event, I sure have no right - or cause - to have my nose over in somebody else's business trying to tell them who or what they should forgive based on *MY* set of values.

I got to stand on I feel forgiveness is really for freeing of the one who forgives & beyond that is beyond my scope.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

but i digress...

are you interpreting me accurately?

sort of yes and no, i think. you and i see differently and think differently. no. i do not presume to enforce an It Must Be Easily Forgiven on you or others but i do write with something greater than the personal voice which might be heard either as "lo, i am as the voice of one crying in the wilderness" or as "a voice as it were a voice of many multitudes"

and you allude to "crimes of such magnitude"

pifflewidgets

i'm not seeing "crimes of such magnitude" in our brash redhaired kid from the prairie lakey; a four year old child unharmed after being uncomfortable for two days isn't "a crime of such magnitude"

i've studied it all for years lakey. rake it all into a big pile and the howlers don't have squat on the lad

In my opinion, Hubbard is an SOB. Forgiven or not forgiven he is still an S.O.B.. Hubbard pulled me out of CCLA Treasury, where I was winning, had lots of friends and was moving up the bridge and posted me as a purchasing officer on the yacht Apollo in Portugal. My entire job was to spend my workday getting price quotes for different materials needed on the ship. To get these prices I had to make phone calls in the Portuguese language to various vendors in Lisbon. Of course I spoke no Portuguese but what the hell, what difference did that make? By intending to get prices , I was supposed to be able to make it happen.

Next I am transferred to the Flag Bureaux as a programs chief to do Data Evaluations using the material from the Data Evaluator's Course to help improve conditions at CCLA. This was the Apollo, the highest Org on the planet, with Hubbard personally on board. Certainly the Apollo would have Hat Packs for each post, right? Also, I would just be in training until on my post until I finished the Data Evaluator's Course, right? Wrong on both counts! I am thrown onto the Evaluators Post with no Hat Pack and no training in doing evaluations. CCLA gets cited by the City of L.A. for putting on public events where up to 150 people attend plus having a snack bar with food and drinks with no City of L.A. licence to operate either an auditorium or a snack bar. I am CCLA programs chief so I get crucified for something I had absolutely no involvment with, they put my head on a pike and I am hated by all my associates and am sent to work on the deck.

Meanwhile, the night I am busted, El Flubbard sends a messenger to my cabin and she passes on Flubby's communication as follows, "I know that you have embezzled money from CCLA Treasury and you have gotten away with it by lying but this time you are not going to get away with it!" Do you realize how much psychological damage this can do to a fairly young guy, 33 years old, who regards Flubbard as some sort of a God?

In actual fact, I never embezzled anything from anybody and did just the reverse, giving CCLA thousands and thousands of dollars for services and then, while on staff, using my car to run Org errands and pick people up from the airport , with me paying my own gas and auto expenses. When the Org had a low week in income, I chipped in and used my own money to buy supplies such as paper, both auditing paper and toilet paper. A couple of weeks after my senior Brownie left for Boston, I was reorganizing his desk and found a key. It turned out that the key opened the coin box to the washer and dryer in the basement of the Org. I opened the coin boxes only to find $165 in quarters, almost $1,000 in today's money. No one else in the Org knew about the coin boxes and Brownie did not mention them in his Hat Write Up. I was the head guy in Treasury and neither the FBO nor Yvonne nor any of the other execs knew about them. I could have pocketed the $165 and had a steady income of $35 a week. This was substantial at the time when staff pay for S.O. was only $10 a week.

What did this embezzler do with the key and the money. I went up to see the FBO, Chris R., and I turned the money and key over to him after first letting Yvonne know of all this. After that, the FBO opened the coin boxes himself and put the money in one of his S.O. accounts.

I quit a high paying computer programming job at IBM to join the S.O.. That was the stupidest decision of my entire life but I did it because I believed in LRH. Two years later, LRH treated me like a piece of garbage. Of course with my scio and S.O. training, I believed that I "pulled it in". It was may case which was causing me to fail, or so I believed. Now that I am much older and wiser, I don't look at LRH as a God anymore. Quite the contrary, I think he was a narcissistic S.O.B.. I cut him quite a bit of slack because he helped me a lot when I first joined up and even today, I am seeing people helped by using some of his stuff. No matter what kind of good he did for me or others, I still think he was an S.O.B..
Lakey

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

In my opinion, Hubbard is an SOB. Forgiven or not forgiven he is still an S.O.B.. Hubbard pulled me out of CCLA Treasury, where I was winning, had lots of friends and was moving up the bridge and posted me as a purchasing officer on the yacht Apollo in Portugal. My entire job was to spend my workday getting price quotes for different materials needed on the ship. To get these prices I had to make phone calls in the Portuguese language to various vendors in Lisbon. Of course I spoke no Portuguese but what the hell, what difference did that make? By intending to get prices , I was supposed to be able to make it happen.

Next I am transferred to the Flag Bureaux as a programs chief to do Data Evaluations using the material from the Data Evaluator's Course to help improve conditions at CCLA. This was the Apollo, the highest Org on the planet, with Hubbard personally on board. Certainly the Apollo would have Hat Packs for each post, right? Also, I would just be in training until on my post until I finished the Data Evaluator's Course, right? Wrong on both counts! I am thrown onto the Evaluators Course with no Hat Pack and no training in doing evaluations. CCLA gets cited by the City of L.A. for putting on public events where up to 150 people attend plus having a snack bar with food and drinks with no City of L.A. licence to operate either an auditorium or a snack bar. I am CCLA programs chief so I get crucified for something I had absolutely no involvment with, they put my head on a pike and I am hated by all my associates and am sent to work on the deck.

Meanwhile, the night I am busted, El Flubbard sends a messenger to my cabin and she passes on Flubby's communication as follows, "I know that you have embezzled money from CCLA Treasury and you have gotten away with it by lying but this time you are not going to get away with it!" Do you realize how much psychological damage this can do to a fairly young guy, 33 years old, who regards Flubbard as some sort of a God?

In actual fact, I never embezzled anything from anybody and did just the reverse, giving CCLA thousand and thousand of dollars for services and then while on staff, using my car to run Org errands and pick people up from the airport , with me paying my own gas and auto expenses. When the Org had a low week in income, I chipped in and used my own money to buy supplies such as paper, both auditing paper and toilet paper. A couple of weeks after my senior Brownie left for Boston, I was reorganizing his desk and found a key. It turned out that the key opened the coin box to the washer and dryer in the basement of the Org. I opened the coin boxes only to find $165 in quarters, almost $1,000 in today's money. No one else in the Org knew about the coin boxes and Brownie did not mention them in his Hat Write Up. I was the head guy in Treasury and neither the FBO nor Yvonne nor any of the other execs knew about them. I could have pocketed the $165 and maybe had a steady income of $35 a week. This was substantial at the time when staff pay for S.O. was only $10 a week.

What did this embezzler do with the key and the money. I went up to see the FBO, Chris R., and I turned the money and key over to him after first letting Yvonne know of all this. After that, the FBO opened the coin boxes himself and put the money in one of his accounts.


I quit a high paying computer programming job at IBM to join the S.O.. That was the stupidest decision of my entire life but I did it because I believed in LRH. Two years later, LRH treated me like a piece of garbage. Of course with my scio and S.O. training, I believed that I "pulled it in". It was may case which was causing me to fail, or so I believed. Now that I am much older and wiser, I don't look at LRH as a God anymore. Quite the contrary, I think he was a narcissistic S.O.B.. I cut him quite a bit of slack because he helped me a lot when I first joined up and even today, I am seeing people helped by using some of his stuff. No matter what kind of good he did for me or others, I still think he was an S.O.B..
Lakey

Natter ?

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Forgiveness.

Again ?

Seems something I work on pretty consistently. .... ( working on may or may not produce progress ! )

Well, this scientology thing.

Oh boy. ( or girl as your orientation may be ).

Do I forgive scientology ?

or

Do I forgive myself for doing - getting involved in - scientology ?

I suspect if I forgave myself I'd most likely be content to no longer take jabs at it & it's vocal proponents of some of it's tenets.

( It's like the more I seriously pursue & study other areas of spirituality the more it seems either Hubbard got it very wrong or he always intended to trap rather than free others )

Just may be that as long as I poke at it I haven't resolved forgiveness of myself ?

Or ... could I just pretend some parts of dear old scientology or Ron ( same thing ) really were good & just continue on ?



Like all ( most if not many ) things........... to be continued ( or not ).

Seems that sometimes an answer just provides several more questions.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

In my opinion, Hubbard is an SOB. Forgiven or not forgiven he is still an S.O.B.. Hubbard pulled me out of CCLA Treasury, where I was winning, had lots of friends and was moving up the bridge and posted me as a purchasing officer on the yacht Apollo in Portugal. My entire job was to spend my workday getting price quotes for different materials needed on the ship. To get these prices I had to make phone calls in the Portuguese language to various vendors in Lisbon. Of course I spoke no Portuguese but what the hell, what difference did that make? By intending to get prices , I was supposed to be able to make it happen.

Next I am transferred to the Flag Bureaux as a programs chief to do Data Evaluations using the material from the Data Evaluator's Course to help improve conditions at CCLA. This was the Apollo, the highest Org on the planet, with Hubbard personally on board. Certainly the Apollo would have Hat Packs for each post, right? Also, I would just be in training until on my post until I finished the Data Evaluator's Course, right? Wrong on both counts! I am thrown onto the Evaluators Post with no Hat Pack and no training in doing evaluations. CCLA gets cited by the City of L.A. for putting on public events where up to 150 people attend plus having a snack bar with food and drinks with no City of L.A. licence to operate either an auditorium or a snack bar. I am CCLA programs chief so I get crucified for something I had absolutely no involvment with, they put my head on a pike and I am hated by all my associates and am sent to work on the deck.

Meanwhile, the night I am busted, El Flubbard sends a messenger to my cabin and she passes on Flubby's communication as follows, "I know that you have embezzled money from CCLA Treasury and you have gotten away with it by lying but this time you are not going to get away with it!" Do you realize how much psychological damage this can do to a fairly young guy, 33 years old, who regards Flubbard as some sort of a God?

In actual fact, I never embezzled anything from anybody and did just the reverse, giving CCLA thousands and thousands of dollars for services and then, while on staff, using my car to run Org errands and pick people up from the airport , with me paying my own gas and auto expenses. When the Org had a low week in income, I chipped in and used my own money to buy supplies such as paper, both auditing paper and toilet paper. A couple of weeks after my senior Brownie left for Boston, I was reorganizing his desk and found a key. It turned out that the key opened the coin box to the washer and dryer in the basement of the Org. I opened the coin boxes only to find $165 in quarters, almost $1,000 in today's money. No one else in the Org knew about the coin boxes and Brownie did not mention them in his Hat Write Up. I was the head guy in Treasury and neither the FBO nor Yvonne nor any of the other execs knew about them. I could have pocketed the $165 and had a steady income of $35 a week. This was substantial at the time when staff pay for S.O. was only $10 a week.

What did this embezzler do with the key and the money. I went up to see the FBO, Chris R., and I turned the money and key over to him after first letting Yvonne know of all this. After that, the FBO opened the coin boxes himself and put the money in one of his S.O. accounts.

I quit a high paying computer programming job at IBM to join the S.O.. That was the stupidest decision of my entire life but I did it because I believed in LRH. Two years later, LRH treated me like a piece of garbage. Of course with my scio and S.O. training, I believed that I "pulled it in". It was may case which was causing me to fail, or so I believed. Now that I am much older and wiser, I don't look at LRH as a God anymore. Quite the contrary, I think he was a narcissistic S.O.B.. I cut him quite a bit of slack because he helped me a lot when I first joined up and even today, I am seeing people helped by using some of his stuff. No matter what kind of good he did for me or others, I still think he was an S.O.B..
Lakey

as anyone who is familiar with the birdsong oeuvre on esmb knows i have been known to refer to the sonofabitch as a sonofabitch and to hit the LOL! button when HH asks "why was hubbard never circumcised?" and answers "because there was no end to the prick"

i don't say he comes up smelling like a rose. he comes up smelling like what you put on your roses to make 'em grow

and in the forty years since i studied in his shop i've cultivated a wide variety of roses over a good size swath of our land...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

and the howlers still can bring it all together in a pile that can be covered with a lawyer's handkerchief

e.g.

in the late 40's or early 50's the S.O.B. wrote some notes to himself in private and the hwlers have been shrieking about them for more than thirty years

writing notes to yourself violates what statute lakey?

sure...

five hundred years ago writing notes to yourself could get you burned at the stake and content didn't matter. if you could read and write but were not taught by the RCC it was a capital offense

maybe i could talk to sherman and see if mr. peabody would warm up the waybac and the howlers can go off to a time where public jurisprudence would be a match for their own...