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The Major Flaw in Knowledgism

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
You do not get the concept per the above posts, unfortunately. There is no mass or goals involved. To be thinking of those in process stops looking. I know, I was doing something similar when I started. Idenics is not Scientology nor does it have the same construct or results IMO. If you want the results of the COS, stick to them.

I would disagree. Perhaps goals are not the idenics terminology, but the concept of direction of activity and the win/loss moment, and identity fixation are still operant.

Different modeling, terminology, same fundamental "problem", or is it "unwanted condition".
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Why do you continually insist upon talking about Knowledgism (or Idenics) when there's soooo much to say about scientology at this time?
 
Why do you continually insist upon talking about Knowledgism (or Idenics) when there's soooo much to say about scientology at this time?

There was a lot to say about scientology when the SP Times articles came out too. Not a squeak from Alex though. (unless I missed something).
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I would disagree. Perhaps goals are not the idenics terminology, but the concept of direction of activity and the win/loss moment, and identity fixation are still operant.

Different modeling, terminology, same fundamental "problem", or is it "unwanted condition".

It isn't the same, but wanting to understand is the requisite to understanding. Panda is right, I'll pass on any more comment.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
I would disagree. Perhaps goals are not the idenics terminology, but the concept of direction of activity and the win/loss moment, and identity fixation are still operant.

Different modeling, terminology, same fundamental "problem", or is it "unwanted condition".


You seem to be putting additives there to looking.

Say I am looking at the idea of speed of light being finite, how do I proceed?

The goal is simply to look and find what is there. It is pure discovery.

It requires some unlearning (giving up) of Scientology conditioning before one can really follow Idenics.

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
Just as in scientology, it is the "confront", the being there fully, perceiving fully what is there, that causes erasure. The significance is just the tag on the "problem", the opposing goals solidified.

I have the concept.

Thank you for your offer. It is very generous considering.


Do you have the concept? Really?

One is not considering engrams or erasure in Idenics. Such a consideration would be part of pre-conditioning in looking. One needs to recognize that.

Other things that you have noted above also seem to be a part of your pre-conditioning.

See, you already have an artificial viewpoint ready to look from. You need to recognize that.

.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Why do you continually insist upon talking about Knowledgism (or Idenics) when there's soooo much to say about scientology at this time?

I think it is entirely relevant to examine various practices, particularly Knowledgism and Idenics which both have precursors in scientology.

Interestingly this thread was moved from CULTS IN GENERAL to INDEPENDENT FIELD sections, whereas scientology is lambasted as a cult. Yet knowledgism is simalarly led by a charismatic man, and based on the same underlying principles.....and uses deceptive practices, as noted earlier in the thread, to recruit.

It is interesting to me that knowledgism gets a pass and scientology doesnt to a large degree on this forum. Yet the similarities are so striking from an "exterior" view. (yes I will acknowledge that knowledgism does not have the history of abuse that the Church of Scientology has, no need to remind me of that very important difference)

My following my interests, which are well known, should not be any impediment to you and others discussing what you want. I dont get all gleeful at every tidbit of bad news for the church. I think it is short sighted of those folk who do, as the church is situated financially and in member support to survive IN SOME FORM no matter what happens. The long term though is what needs to be influenced. That requires a look at what else is out there, how the church can change, etc. This is not the "glee at the down fall of the church" board, but per emma a place where people with an interest in scientology can talk about things that interest them.

Read my posts and you will discern a pattern. My interests are spiritual exploration, esoteric discussion, poetry and pot stirring. I am not as focused on scientology as I once was. Hard to believe, but remove that filter and I may make more sense.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Do you have the concept? Really?

One is not considering engrams or erasure in Idenics. Such a consideration would be part of pre-conditioning in looking. One needs to recognize that.

Other things that you have noted above also seem to be a part of your pre-conditioning.

See, you already have an artificial viewpoint ready to look from. You need to recognize that.

.

All viewpoints are artificial. All identities are too.

But you are saying I need to be free from pre-conditioning for idenics to work? If I were free from preconditioning I WOULDNT NEED IDENICS!

A spiritual exploration is, to me, a look at all the things piled on top of a silent and still loving awareness. I do realize that I use the model of scientology to understand some things. I have a thread about that.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11184

It starts out by saying "scientology is not the truth".
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
All viewpoints are artificial. All identities are too.

But you are saying I need to be free from pre-conditioning for idenics to work? If I were free from preconditioning I WOULDNT NEED IDENICS!

A spiritual exploration is, to me, a look at all the things piled on top of a silent and still loving awareness. I do realize that I use the model of scientology to understand some things. I have a thread about that.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11184

It starts out by saying "scientology is not the truth".


You seem to be employing a generality here. See my last post.

We can have an Idenics session to look at this pre-condition resulting from Scientology if you wish.

.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
On the same token, you need to remove the filter of Scientology that you are wearing, and then Idenics will make more sense.

:D

30+ years.....I have a lot of experience looking through it.

It is my basic and fundamental "model" of the world and life.

I know this.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
30+ years.....I have a lot of experience looking through it.

It is my basic and fundamental "model" of the world and life.

I know this.


Truth may be sorted out from deceptive curves thrown in Scientology through the use of Idenics if you wish.

It requires willingness to give up one's favorite biases in favor of truth.

.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Let’s Blow Alex’s Cover

Let’s Blow Alex’s Cover

If we return to page 11 of this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11851&page=11
You’ll see from post number 101 onwards he is being exposed as having irrefutably stated falsehoods in his obvious, to many of us, attempts to smear Alan and the subject of Knowledgism.

It figures, of course, as Alan and his work is a major successful alternative and “competitor” to the Church of $ in the Church’s view.

When challenged on the falsehood Alex posted on the issue of EdisonLearning, Inc. being a front operation of Knowledgism, Alex dissembled, and eventually ran for cover.

For those interested, it makes for somewhat interesting reading to go though the sequence of posts on the above page.

You’ll see I particularly challenged Alex on names and sources as to the falsehood on Edison because I knew Alex would put his head in a noose and blow his cover as he tried to cover his tracks.

Alex’s final back-down on this particular falsehood was this, on post # 107:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerB
It's the "Effective Life Plan" (a total package of services that includes both the Life & Skills Analysises) that costs $150 . . . not the "OCA type test" alone you falsely presented as costing $150.

As to Edison . . . who . . . . otherwise remove the falsehood.

Alex Answered:
alex; said:
Sorry I will not single out individuals who are not promoting themselves. I'll remove it.


So, the question becomes who was Alex’s source of “information” that EdisonLearning was a front for Kn? And whose viewpoint, agenda and wishes (nay, orders) has Alex been pushing with and on this thread, and his attack on the thread I started “On the Subject of Knowledgism”?

Well, let’s look at the facts.

EdisonLearning, Inc., is the new name for Edison Schools, Inc., formerly a public company that was set up many years ago by one Chris Whittle of “Channel One” fame.

Now, I happen to know this and the fact that Edison has nothing to do with Kn, because my sweetheart, Virginia used to be Edison’s pension and medical benefits consultant.

But no one at Edison knew or knows she studies Kn.

Edison does not use any Kn, nor any Scn “study tech.” I know, I spoke to their head people on this.

The only thing which links Kn to/with Edison is this:
********************
BackCover.jpg
[/IMG]

This is the back cover of a book Virginia and I have written.

You’ll note that a former school superintendant for Westchester County who was an Edison employee, gave us his opinion on the materials in the book as a credential for the book.

Of course, the book itself scares the pants off the church . . . it blows their “study barrier” shit out of the water. You see, a non-defined word is not a study barrier—it is a barrier to comprehension. The same with the other misrepresented “study barriers.”

The title of our book is:

How to Learn–How to Teach: Overcoming the Seven Barriers to Comprehension

Note the distinction here. It is a classic example of LRH’s screw-ups. First he steals another’s discovery and presents it as his own (see Alan’s “Opening Pandora’s Box” thread, and the stealing of the Berners’ discoveries on education) but then he screws it up by misidentifying learning as study, and totally misses the importance and relevance of comprehension and its being impeded.

Now in case any of you folks are wondering if this book is a steal on Scn, or is something of Kn reworked by me and Virginia; think again:)

I’ve been in the coaching and consulting game a very, very long time. For a period, I was a Fellow of The British Institute of Management, and conducted management training courses and symposia for them and the Management Center Europe based in Brussels. I am also a Certified Performance Technologist with the International Society for Performance Improvement (as is Virginia).

This work on the subject of learning and education is a way bigger thing than Hubbard’s puny little effort to address his misguided “study barriers.” It has been a hobby-horse of mine for some time, and I can tell you there have been others earlier than Hubbard who did a far better job of addressing the area than he.

And the book is not a piece of Kn. I offered it to Alan for use, but he declined:melodramatic:

So, how does or could Alex know of any such alleged connection? The book is not “out there” yet. It’s not been made public. Alex has never met me unless he was operating under cover as one of the two guys I’ve met from this board, or otherwise is his Alex sig a sock puppet for another sig used by him/her on this board, which I’ll explain.

Last January, I exchanged PMs with “dmarie” after she posted openly on this board that she wanted some help with study. The upshot of my caring to help was that I agreed to prepare her a bound proof copy of the book which she agreed to pay for. (Doing the Kinkos photocopy shop trick costs, no?)

The copy was duly mailed off (that costs money too), but nothing further was heard of or from “dmarie.” She did not pay the agreed costs, and despite emails to her, no reply as to safe receipt or anything else. One can only assume it was an OSA op. :) Hey, I’ve got nothing to hide, though I’m quite happy to keep them wasting time with unimportances! :yes: “If “dmarie” has an honest explanation for the above, I’d be delighted to correct my assumption here.

There is another possible avenue through which OSA became aware of my book, but the above will do for now.

But then who is Alex, what is his true name/identity.

The Church’s Office of Special Affairs knows of this book though, and I am stating this is the only way Alex could know of any alleged connection of EdisonLearning to Knowledgism and the notion of Edison’s being a front for Kn and “using Kn’s material.” It is false info, though believed to be accurate, supplied him by you-know-who.

I am stating Alex has acted on information supplied him by OSA.

It is obvious from his (or is it a “her”?) dissembling and deceitful misrepresentations of Knowledgism—that is, he states it to be something which it isn’t, and then attacks and attempts to discredit that false notion which he himself has presented—that he has not been acting in good faith.

He has also broken the rules of this board on a consistent basis; particularly Rule # 1 via his personal attacks on Alan in various threads on this board.

My view is that it is time to report to the mods the infractions of good faith and board rules as noted above.

RogerB
 
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alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Let’s Blow Alex’s Cover

If we return to page 11 of this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11851&page=11
You’ll see from post number 101 onwards he is being exposed as having irrefutably stated falsehoods in his obvious, to many of us, attempts to smear Alan and the subject of Knowledgism.

It figures, of course, as Alan and his work is a major successful alternative and “competitor” to the Church of $ in the Church’s view.

When challenged on the falsehood Alex posted on the issue of EdisonLearning, Inc. being a front operation of Knowledgism, Alex dissembled, and eventually ran for cover.

For those interested, it makes for somewhat interesting reading to go though the sequence of posts on the above page.

You’ll see I particularly challenged Alex on names and sources as to the falsehood on Edison because I knew Alex would put his head in a noose and blow his cover as he tried to cover his tracks.

Alex’s final back-down on this particular falsehood was this, on post # 107:



Alex Answered:



So, the question becomes who was Alex’s source of “information” that EdisonLearning was a front for Kn? And whose viewpoint, agenda and wishes (nay, orders) has Alex been pushing with and on this thread, and his attack on the thread I started “On the Subject of Knowledgism”?

Well, let’s look at the facts.

EdisonLearning, Inc., is the new name for Edison Schools, Inc., formerly a public company that was set up many years ago by one Chris Whittle of “Channel One” fame.

Now, I happen to know this and the fact that Edison has nothing to do with Kn, because my sweetheart, Virginia used to be Edison’s pension and medical benefits consultant.

But no one at Edison knew or knows she studies Kn.

Edison does not use any Kn, nor any Scn “study tech.” I know, I spoke to their head people on this.

The only thing which links Kn to/with Edison is this:
********************
BackCover.jpg
[/IMG]

This is the back cover of a book Virginia and I have written.

You’ll note that a former school superintendant for Westchester County who was an Edison employee, gave us his opinion on the materials in the book as a credential for the book.

Of course, the book itself scares the pants off the church . . . it blows their “study barrier” shit out of the water. You see, a non-defined word is not a study barrier—it is a barrier to comprehension. The same with the other misrepresented “study barriers.”

The title of our book is:

How to Learn–How to Teach: Overcoming the Seven Barriers to Comprehension

Note the distinction here. It is a classic example of LRH’s screw-ups. First he steals another’s discovery and presents it as his own (see Alan’s “Opening Pandora’s Box” thread, and the stealing of the Berners’ discoveries on education) but then he screws it up by misidentifying learning as study, and totally misses the importance and relevance of comprehension and its being impeded.

Now in case any of you folks are wondering if this book is a steal on Scn, or is something of Kn reworked by me and Virginia; think again:)

I’ve been in the coaching and consulting game a very, very long time. For a period, I was a Fellow of The British Institute of Management, and conducted management training courses and symposia for them and the Management Center Europe based in Brussels. I am also a Certified Performance Technologist with the International Society for Performance Improvement (as is Virginia).

This work on the subject of learning and education is a way bigger thing than Hubbard’s puny little effort to address his misguided “study barriers.” It has been a hobby-horse of mine for some time, and I can tell you there have been others earlier than Hubbard who did a far better job of addressing the area than he.

And the book is not a piece of Kn. I offered it to Alan for use, but he declined:melodramatic:

So, how does or could Alex know of any such alleged connection? The book is not “out there” yet. It’s not been made public. Alex has never met me unless he was operating under cover as one of the two guys I’ve met from this board, or otherwise is his Alex sig a sock puppet for another sig used by him/her on this board, which I’ll explain.

Last January, I exchanged PMs with “dmarie” after she posted openly on this board that she wanted some help with study. The upshot of my caring to help was that I agreed to prepare her a bound proof copy of the book which she agreed to pay for. (Doing the Kinkos photocopy shop trick costs, no?)

The copy was duly mailed off (that costs money too), but nothing further was heard of or from “dmarie.” She did not pay the agreed costs, and despite emails to her, no reply as to safe receipt or anything else. One can only assume it was an OSA op. :) Hey, I’ve got nothing to hide, though I’m quite happy to keep them wasting time with unimportances! :yes: “If “dmarie” has an honest explanation for the above, I’d be delighted to correct my assumption here.

There is another possible avenue through which OSA became aware of my book, but the above will do for now.

But then who is Alex, what is his true name/identity.

The Church’s Office of Special Affairs knows of this book though, and I am stating this is the only way Alex could know of any alleged connection of EdisonLearning to Knowledgism and the notion of Edison’s being a front for Kn and “using Kn’s material.” It is false info, though believed to be accurate, supplied him by you-know-who.

I am stating Alex has acted on information supplied him by OSA.

It is obvious from his (or is it a “her”?) dissembling and deceitful misrepresentations of Knowledgism—that is, he states it to be something which it isn’t, and then attacks and attempts to discredit that false notion which he himself has presented—that he has not been acting in good faith.

He has also broken the rules of this board on a consistent basis; particularly Rule # 1 via his personal attacks on Alan in various threads on this board.

My view is that it is time to report to the mods the infractions of good faith and board rules as noted above.

RogerB

Roger, I got the connection to edison from Virginia's Linkedin page. My apologies for the mistake. I believe it is the ONLY factual error in my posting on this thread. I removed it from the post I could still edit and asked the mods to remove it from the one I could not edit.

http://www.linkedin.com/ppl/webprof...thType=name&trk=ppro_viewmore&lnk=vw_pprofile

"Virginia Koenig
Benefits Mgr. at Edison Schools Inc.
Greater New York City Area Human Resources"

Sorry no grand conspiracy, but I didnt want to name Virginia as she does not promote knowledgism in the manner I have shown other knowledgists to be doing.

Show me a personal attack on Alan by me.

But it is interesting that when I start a thread about knowledgism and what I perceive to be its flaws, your response is to call me osa rather than to refute my points. Use your study abilites to fully understand the concept of ad hominem as a logical fallacy. And perhaps then reflect on the fact that you and others on this thread are using the same tactics the church does, dead agenting, misdirecting, character assassination etc.

(for the record I am not in any sort of communication with osa and have not received any information from ANY church terminal regarding Alan, knowledgism, Roger, Virginia, Edison, etc)

(and PS, you do look better with your "royal navy" beard as you mention on your "voice over" page.)
 
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alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
My experience from this thread is that Knowledgists act a lot like Scientologists. Secretive, vindictive, superior, and always attack, never defend.

IMO

It is true that had I not had a series of bad experiences involving Alan, I probably would not have started this thread. Intelligent people will discern my "bias", I believe.

But I think that I have made some valid points, that stand unchallenged, and that the behavior and postings of the knowledgists are telling.
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks Nick, I'll remember this.

Yeah - either you're OSA - or you sit there at your PC tracking down every conceivable connection with Kn and any vaguely associated name you can find - i.e. behave like B1 GO anyway.

I've had it with you.

Nick
 
I would disagree. Perhaps goals are not the idenics terminology, but the concept of direction of activity and the win/loss moment, and identity fixation are still operant.

Different modeling, terminology, same fundamental "problem", or is it "unwanted condition".


Gangaji does the same.
 
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