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What's this "Excalibur" thing? Will it give me OT powers?

Regarding Hubbard's definitions of Clear: the definition most commonly used to debunk Clearing is his description of it in DMSMH. There sure ain't any of dem Clears (at least, none that I've seen) but this DMSMH definition is obviously a posited or postulated definition. There were no actual Clears at all at the time of writing that book so it has to be a posited definition, something he thought might be achievable through Dianetics (if you happen to believe in that sort of thing).

In Dianetics Hubbard describes a state of being he calls "Clear." He describes this in such a way that a person reading the book would think that Hubbard had achieved that state with people by applying Dianetics to them in doing his research. In fact a person with the characteristics of the "state of Clear" as described in that book had not been achieved at the time of its publication and has not since been demonstrably achieved, despite Hubbard's continuing claims that it had been achieved.

The management of the Church of Scientology is not foolish enough to publicly makes the same claims Hubbard did, but there isn't a registrar in the organization who does not make these claims and refer to them in private when attempting to prey on Fresh Meat and indoctrinate them into the cult.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Be that as it may, the First Clear actually promoted as such was some considerable time and technology later than 1950's DMSMH.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Regarding Hubbard's definitions of Clear: the definition most commonly used to debunk Clearing is his description of it in DMSMH. There sure ain't any of dem Clears (at least, none that I've seen) but this DMSMH definition is obviously a posited or postulated definition. There were no actual Clears at all at the time of writing that book so it has to be a posited definition, something he thought might be achievable through Dianetics (if you happen to believe in that sort of thing).
PS: You didn't answer my question... or did you?

If I remember correctly, Hubbard claims in a tape - was it 'The Story of Dianetics and Scientology' (?) - that he made quite a few Clears in the 1947/1948 period.

This Free Zone/Freezone site pegs the number of Clears, before 1949, as 388:

http://www.fzaoint.net/scientology_doubt.html

The site cautions that some of the later Clear numbers may be inaccurate, and are approximations, or - in the case of the late 1970s - inflated by newly attested (past life, 1947/1948) Clears - although it would seem that this number would not exceed 388.

Bait and Switch, Institutionalized and/or internalized:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=218625&postcount=252

David Mayo on Clear:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=245719&postcount=14
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Yes, Veda. That's true (as to the claims not to the veracity of those claims) but I think he also qualified the State somewhat in that tape. I don't really remember and, in truth, I wouldn't give it any more credence than it deserves.

I'm sure there are many who think they were audited by Hubbard before 1950, that just makes me wonder where he found the time with everything else that was going on in those years but I wouldn't get into an argument over it.

My point really is that I believe that most of what is contained in DMSMH is postulated/posited rather than based on any actuality. I have a personal belief that Hubbard postulated it and it was those who folllowed and acted upon those postulates that brought Dianetics and scientology into being. It probably surprised the hell out of him!
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
If I remember correctly, Hubbard claims in a tape - was it 'The Story of Dianetics and Scientology' (?) - that he made quite a few Clears in the 1947/1948 period.

This Free Zone/Freezone site pegs the number of Clears, before 1949, as 388:
<snip>

That graph of Clears made is just plain silly. The assumptions made are not defensible, to my mind anyway. That 388 before 1948 figure is absurd, based on the fact that Hubbard said they existed, not on any solid evidence at all. Hubbard kept his boy scout journals. He threw away his Dianetics research notes? Extremely unlikely, especially since he is a known liar and self-aggrandizer.

Paul
 

Div6

Crusader
If I remember correctly, Hubbard claims in a tape - was it 'The Story of Dianetics and Scientology' (?) - that he made quite a few Clears in the 1947/1948 period.

This Free Zone/Freezone site pegs the number of Clears, before 1949, as 388:

http://www.fzaoint.net/scientology_doubt.html

The site cautions that some of the later Clear numbers may be inaccurate, and are approximations, or - in the case of the late 1970s - inflated by newly attested (past life, 1947/1948) Clears - although it would seem that this number would not exceed 388.

Bait and Switch, Institutionalized and/or internalized:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=218625&postcount=252

David Mayo on Clear:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=245719&postcount=14

I believe so....something along the lines of "I wrapped a towel around my head and opened a swami shop in LA...."

This would have been during his Parsons period, I suppose.

The early "clears" were just "thetans exterior" who were not stable.
"Homo Novis" was then postulated as a person with no service facsimile computations.
Then the "Whole Track" reared it's head......
 

Veda

Sponsor
I believe so....something along the lines of "I wrapped a towel around my head and opened a swami shop in LA...."

This would have been during his Parsons period, I suppose.

The early "clears" were just "thetans exterior" who were not stable.
"Homo Novis" was then postulated as a person with no service facsimile computations.
Then the "Whole Track" reared it's head......

It would be shortly after the Parsons period, and after he wrote the last known installment of the 'Affirmations' (some excerpts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwmsBLvcr4

Hubbard wrote this letter in October of 1947. (Making all those Clears must have reduced his havingness):

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3126000/l_ron_hubbard_begged_for_psychiatric_help

Some more information on Hubbard's 1978/79 discovery that Dianetics makes Clears routinely:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=75265&postcount=15

Incidentally, I don't recall anyone in the late 1970s, who was "on lines," and decided that he/she was a "past life 1947/1948, audited by Ron, Clear," being told, "No, sorry, that's just a Theta Clear," and that they needn't go "up lines" and spend thousands finding out if they're Clear or not.

"An insatiable lust for power and money." David Mayo, from Tape 3 of this interview:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm
 

Div6

Crusader
I suspect that any foray into ragheaded swamidom by Ron is purely in His imagination.

Zinj

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=4319

Hubbard came back from Rhodesia and stated "A lone OT will fail!"

What he left out was: Especially if they dress up in a kaftan, turban, embroidered slippers, use a long art-deco cigarette holder and face rouge.

He also stated: "It takes a team of OTs to win!" He also left out: "We'll dress them in pretty sailor suits - and they can salute each other and call each other, Sir!"
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
From reading the various arguments concerning the state of 'clear' as a postulated state, it appears that:

1. It is not an objective state that falls within the context if Lcon's descriptions.

2. It is not a state that has been objectively measured to ascertain any degree of actual real world ability to function more effectively.

3. Thus the state of 'clear' has no definite definition; the processes used in an attempt to achieve the state may be part of what one does while participating but the final outcome is loosely defined by it adherents as 'to each his own'. In other words- the state is an IDEA presented, a participant must decide to aim at it (believe it can be done), participate in the various processes that are described as the route to the state and eventually, upon 'his own estimation' decide to 'state' he's 'clear'.

4. So the 'State' in the phrase 'The State of Clear' means in practice what one states as his concept of whatever he feels he gained from it.

5. For someone who firsts get attracted to this 'state' because he finds the notion of 'improving the analytical mind' to be a worthy task, it's apparent that while obtaining any such benefits- the participant's direct analytical thought process is ALSO being restructured to:

A. Ignore the first definition given.

B. Ignore that it was a lie.

C. Realize your own definition.

D. Ignore any factual evidence that disagrees with your own realized definition.

E. Decide that your 'postulate' of your 'state of clear' is your 'truth' that doesn't require any objective agreement.

F. Find out that 'processing' also includes having your analytical thought process restructured to allow or disallow factual analysis, when making decisions, at your own whim.........

Actually the more I look at this, it becomes 'clear' that the 'state of clear' is just as Lcon intended it to be...

Whatever the hell one wishes it to be, and to hell with what anybody else has to say about it.
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
But if a BT starts to freewheel whose body is it that is denied sleep and dies? There aren't a whole lot of them that he is attached to. :)
Interesting. I hadn't been reading that into it, thinking the pre-OT wouldn't be the adverse effect of a BT to that extent. That's an important consideration.

If you read the 1978 confidential HCOB about Clear (not a NOTs one), accompanying the "Clear cog" (or shortly thereafter) is the ability to not do it any more, to lose the automaticity.
Thanks. Useful data. :thumbsup:
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
That's not how I see it. I see clear as your condition when you are not presently restimulated: you have control of your emotions, are responding appropriately to your environment given your consciously aware set of goals (nothing suppressed and generating conflict/dissonance).

I think Ron had it wrong in terms of it being something that is a stable state, because I believe one only approaches this by constantly confronting reality as it is to the best of your ability. We have certain threshholds, though, at which we cannot function (having a fever over 107 degrees for instance should kill you in an hour). When those threshholds are exceeded, one's "clarity" simply cannot be maintained. Hubbard had it RIGHT, though, IMO, when he said the "analyzer" shuts off during "engrams" (which I term "traumatic incidents", because I think it is more accurate), and that a person can be deranged by this, afterward, and if they don't correct their derangement, can have secondary traumatic stress, and suffer from a variety of symptoms, which fall under the rubric of PTSD, these days.

However, even when a person is totally free from traumatic stress, in their own estimation, they never display what Ron defined as the State of Clear. Memory is not accurate the way Ron thought, lifespan is not significantly improved, if at all (it may be, IMO, if a person had less stress in their life, that they would be less liable to suffer illness, as stress decreases immune response).

I consider it a deliberate "trance" state, valuable in pressure situations and for recovering from stressful situations, but more of a "safe mode" existence than I wish to lead. I enjoy feeling emotions, I enjoy "plus randomity" and zanyness. Safe Mode is not for me.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=4319

Hubbard came back from Rhodesia and stated "A lone OT will fail!"

What he left out was: Especially if they dress up in a kaftan, turban, embroidered slippers, use a long art-deco cigarette holder and face rouge.

He also stated: "It takes a team of OTs to win!" He also left out: "We'll dress them in pretty sailor suits - and they can salute each other and call each other, Sir!"

OK. That I'll buy. But, I think it's a near certainty that Ron never actually pulled such stunts Himself in LA during the pre DMSMH or Parson's period. He *did* probably know people who did and incorporated their story into His. And tried, unsuccessfully, to repeat the 'success' in a fairly inappropriate venue :)

Zinj
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
Hence the importance of "briefing the pc" when he first recognizes the phenomenon for himself. :)
Well now, I'm listening to the Class VIII lectures as part of my theory study for OTIII. I just found this …

LRH Class VIII tape #8, 1 Oct 1968
I'm going to let you in on something. I didn't even get R6ed. I'm not from this planet.

And then we have the handwritten OTIII "Data" sheet (undated)
In December 67 I knew somebody had to take the plunge. I did and emerged very knocked out but alive. Probably the only one ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but only that given here is needful.

If we are to believe both quotes then this wasn't LRH's R6 incident, but some BT's, and it still had a near fatal effect on LRH. :omg:
:confused2:

:nervous:
 
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