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Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tech

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

You cannot reform the un-reformable on that side of the fence anymore than you can deprogram the deprogrammers on this side. We are deprogrammed, that's why we're here as we have no agendas that are akin to theirs. We are largely agenda free.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Internal reform is probably impossible. External reform among people who've left the Church is possible,...

<snip>

The only reforms that I've seen have come externally, it is true.

And that is from those who are exposing the abusive and/or criminal practices of CoS by the media (traditional and social media).

Conditions for those who were in the Hole seemed to change (hopefully for the better) and policies on forced abortions by the CoS seemed to improve because of this type of external pressure.

But just having a conversation as an individual with those still in isn't going to accomplish anything imo. Ever.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

You cannot reform the un-reformable on that side of the fence anymore than you can deprogram the deprogrammers on this side. We are deprogrammed, that's why we're here as we have no agendas that are akin to theirs. We are largely agenda free.

I have an agenda. I just am honest about it. See sig.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Do you mean the possibility of reform? If so it is an interesting subject to me but not one I generally mention here unless I'm asked and even then I tend just to leave it at "I believe its still possible". It's certainly not something I constantly bring up on my own. I certainly don't advocate anyone else doing what I'm doing. If they want to it's their decision but I would never suggest that anyone else do it (unless maybe I'm talking to a currently very-in Scientologist as I'd rather them either start working toward reform (even if only in very small ways) or leave than stay in their current state - but still that's their choice ultimately).

There are no choices within $cientology, it's a mind control cult. $cio's are indoctrinated with "Ron says" to nth degree. Leaving the Cof$ is probably one of the hardest steps a person can take. It's full of dissonance, upset, pain, anxiety, worry about losing friends and/or family from disconnection, being declared and fear the Cof$ will come after them, losing the eternity along with the rest of Elcon's manipulative lies enforced by the Dwarfenfuhrer.

$cio's in the Cof$ aren't going to take you seriously, they will humor you while you buy your extension courses because you're a stat.

This $cientology is a religion and reform mantra of yours is just silly.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

The people whose minds I'd like to change are the ones that are very 'in' the church without critically evaluating what goes on around them.

If I can get one or two Scientologists that are in the church to read Going Clear or Scientology: History of a New Religion with an open mind. That's the kind of impact I'm talking about. I'm not trying to reform things myself - I want to give individual people that I interact with that have more skin the game the data that points to either reform or collapse and do it in a way that doesn't lead to instant rejection of the data. That means having to do a certain amount of relationship-building within the church.

:hysterical: :dieslaughing:

What planet are you on?

If you believe that, then you either truly have NO OBSERVATIONAL SKILLS of any sort, or are entirely living in a fantasy land of extreme delusion.

Reform is IMPOSSIBLE within the context of ANY version of ANY Church of Scientology.

If you change anyone's mind, they will LEAVE the Church of Scientology (as so many others have).

Hubbard built in Scientology's own self-destruct mechanism. It is hard-wired into the system, through endless policies and orders. What is the self-destruct mechanism? Scientology CANNOT CHANGE!

"Altering" the tech or the data or ANYTHING at all is forbidden. It is written hard and strong into the subject materials. If you fail to see that, then again, you either truly have NO OBSERVATIONAL SKILLS of any sort, or are entirely living in a fantasy land of extreme delusion. Either way sucks.

Ethics and Qual are setup to detect and handled any ALTERATION of any of the subject or practices of Scientology. This is INSANE. Why?

Because, any intelligent survey of life easily shows that any organism or group that cannot change will eventually wither and die. In REAL LIFE, organisms and groups evolve and develop as they respond to changes in the environment. As living things ADAPT to forces in the environment, they SURVIVE. Creatures and groups do NOT survive by endlessly foisting their will against the environment. Living organism find a NICHE. They find a balance where they maintain an equilibrium. Hubbard and Scientology NEVER even mention the words "balance", "peace" or "harmony". It is no wonder the Scientology view of all life is WAR and BATTLE.

Scientology is like Wall Street and the stock market where the ideal is "constant growth" - which is impossible. In real life, there are booms and busts. In absurd models of continual expansion (like Scientology), the pressure is always to MOLD the environment to ITS WILL. In fact, the stats never keep going up in Scientology either, and every time they crash - they blame some scapegoat "suppressive person" - that is just another example of the total idiocy of Scientology (the list of idiocies is nearly endless).

Jesus Christ on a Cross Kate - of all the truly worthwhile things to direct attention at, invest energy in, and spend time on, why this minor passing largely insignificant Earth fad called Scientology? :unsure:

Nobody needs to attack Scientology for it to eventually fail. It will do so because it is hard-wired by Hubbard to RESIST CHANGE. And, it resists change severely. That which cannot adapt (change) will not survive. Scientology philosophy is built on the ideas of constant expansion and to HANDLE THE ENVIRONMENT in alignment with some purpose or goal. The concept of adaptation is nowhere to be found in the subject of Scientology.

Scientology cannot change. Your claims/statements/hopes/lies are absurd.

Last, "critical evaluation" is IMPOSSIBLE in Scientology. Critical evaluation is seen as "nattter", "misunderstood words", "overts" or "enemy line". There are so many aspects of Hubbard's "tech" that make any sort of "critical evaluation" entirely impossible in the context of the Church of Scientology.

This is not unlike trying to find unicorns in your backyard - you never will, though you can talk about it all you like. I only see what you say as empty words, or pretense, or distraction, or . . . . (fill in the blank). Maybe you are genuine, yet horrible naïve - that might explain these endless examples of intellectual absurdity. The intellect MUST connect to honest and accurate OBSERVATIONS, or it gets lost in excursions of vague abstract delusions (separate from honest and accurate observations of actual behaviors).

You might be "smart", but you are really not at all - because your observational skills seem to truly suck . . . . :confused2:
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I agree to some extent, I think this would happen with something like if DM got kicked out - I believe we would be in the same position... same shit different day, so to speak.

In my opinion true reform has to come from both outside pressure to the people at the top as well as bottom-up pressure from the inside.

Where do you people come from?

SCIENTOLOGY CANNOT CHANGE.

If you "change" the subject and practices (i.e. "reform"), then it will no longer be "Scientology". :duh:
 

Anonycat

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

Would anyone mind if a moderator is requested to move this whole derail to its own thread?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

If I can get one or two Scientologists that are in the church to read Going Clear or Scientology: History of a New Religion with an open mind. That's the kind of impact I'm talking about. I'm not trying to reform things myself - I want to give individual people that I interact with that have more skin the game the data that points to either reform or collapse and do it in a way that doesn't lead to instant rejection of the data. That means having to do a certain amount of relationship-building within the church.


You're trying to give Scientologists that are in the church the data they need to reform the "church"?

I was in for 10 years, almost all of it as a staff member, and not once did I ever see done what you are hoping to do.

If that's truly your agenda it's such a waste of an intelligent human being.

And again, if you believe you can have a significant impact in this way you may wish to read what Gadfly said to you I copied below.

He's telling it like it really is. :yes:

:hysterical: :dieslaughing:

What planet are you on?

If you believe that, then you either truly have NO OBSERVATIONAL SKILLS of any sort, or are entirely living in a fantasy land of extreme delusion.

Reform is IMPOSSIBLE within the context of ANY version of ANY Church of Scientology.

If you change anyone's mind, they will LEAVE the Church of Scientology (as so many others have).

Hubbard built in Scientology's own self-destruct mechanism. It is hard-wired into the system, through endless policies and orders. What is the self-destruct mechanism? Scientology CANNOT CHANGE!

"Altering" the tech or the data or ANYTHING at all is forbidden. It is written hard and strong into the subject materials. If you fail to see that, then again, you either truly have NO OBSERVATIONAL SKILLS of any sort, or are entirely living in a fantasy land of extreme delusion. Either way sucks.

Ethics and Qual are setup to detect and handled any ALTERATION of any of the subject or practices of Scientology. This is INSANE. Why?

Because, any intelligent survey of life easily shows that any organism or group that cannot change will eventually wither and die. In REAL LIFE, organisms and groups evolve and develop as they respond to changes in the environment. As living things ADAPT to forces in the environment, they SURVIVE. Creatures and groups do NOT survive by endlessly foisting their will against the environment. Living organism find a NICHE. They find a balance where they maintain an equilibrium. Hubbard and Scientology NEVER even mention the words "balance", "peace" or "harmony". It is no wonder the Scientology view of all life is WAR and BATTLE.

Scientology is like Wall Street and the stock market where the ideal is "constant growth" - which is impossible. In real life, there are booms and busts. In absurd models of continual expansion (like Scientology), the pressure is always to MOLD the environment to ITS WILL. In fact, the stats never keep going up in Scientology either, and every time they crash - they blame some scapegoat "suppressive person" - that is just another example of the total idiocy of Scientology (the list of idiocies is nearly endless).

Jesus Christ on a Cross Kate - of all the truly worthwhile things to direct attention at, invest energy in, and spend time on, why this minor passing largely insignificant Earth fad called Scientology? :unsure:

Nobody needs to attack Scientology for it to eventually fail. It will do so because it is hard-wired by Hubbard to RESIST CHANGE. And, it resists change severely. That which cannot adapt (change) will not survive. Scientology philosophy is built on the ideas of constant expansion and to HANDLE THE ENVIRONMENT in alignment with some purpose or goal. The concept of adaptation is nowhere to be found in the subject of Scientology.

Scientology cannot change. Your claims/statements/hopes/lies are absurd.

Last, "critical evaluation" is IMPOSSIBLE in Scientology. Critical evaluation is seen as "nattter", "misunderstood words", "overts" or "enemy line". There are so many aspects of Hubbard's "tech" that make any sort of "critical evaluation" entirely impossible in the context of the Church of Scientology.

This is not unlike trying to find unicorns in your backyard - you never will, though you can talk about it all you like. I only see what you say as empty words, or pretense, or distraction, or . . . . (fill in the blank). Maybe you are genuine, yet horrible naïve - that might explain these endless examples of intellectual absurdity. The intellect MUST connect to honest and accurate OBSERVATIONS, or it gets lost in excursions of vague abstract delusions (separate from honest and accurate observations of actual behaviors).

You might be "smart", but you are really not at all - because your observational skills seem to truly suck . . . . :confused2:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I repeat:

Jesus Christ on a Cross Kate - of all the truly worthwhile things to direct attention at, invest energy in, and spend time on, why this minor passing largely insignificant Earth fad called Scientology? :confused2:

It isn't important enough on any level to try to reform, fix, repair or anything. :no:
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

I don't do auditing in the church so I'm not subject to sec checks.


I don't know how you came to believe that ^^^^^^ but it's false.

You can be ordered to sec checks regardless of whether you receive auditing or not.

You can refuse them but there will be severe consequences if you do - like being Declared SP.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

And again, if you believe you can have a significant impact in this way you may wish to read what Gadfly said to you I copied below.

He's telling it like it really is. :yes:

:itstrue:

:thankyou:

:bow:

In the end people see what they want to see, or push some agenda, often in direct contradiction to great amounts of easily observable facts and evidence. :banghead:

Very intelligent people can get behind really DUMB IDEAS. The intellect can get so "strong" that it resists conforming with honest and accurate observations. Hubbard used that in his favor when he planned his system of Scientology indoctrination - cognitive dissonance is a common side-effect of involvement with Scientology.

Hubbard was onto something when he placed "lookingness" (observations) FAR above "thinkingness" (intellect, reasoning, conceptualization). Kate, you display a common reversal where the intellect takes an improper place of superiority OVER skills of observation.

"Critical thinking" isn't really so much a matter of "thinking" at all - but of LINKING honest and accurate observations of real-life people, activities and behaviors to ones ideas about these same and relevant people, activities and behaviors.
 
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Anonycat

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

No problem with me, as I mentioned I'd rather not even be having this conversation. Pushing Scientology reform is not at all why I'm here. I go to the CofS to push reform, pushing reform here would be barking up the wrong tree.

It started wandering on page 1, but didn't get fully derailed until page 2, with the new topic, so I reported your post on page 2, and requested a thread. Out of consideration, how about if you make your own threads, rather than derail, and make others clean it up? Thanks!
 

Leland

Crusader
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

No problem with me, as I mentioned I'd rather not even be having this conversation. Pushing Scientology reform is not at all why I'm here. I go to the CofS to push reform, pushing reform here would be barking up the wrong tree.

Then please do so. Go to the CofS and reform them and stop clogging all the threads here posting about it.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Re: Independent Scientologist Mark Shreffler promotes use of COS Admin abd Ethics Tec

-deleted-
 
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