How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

[JustSheila]

Hugs to you too. Been gone for so long I don't know how to use the emojis any more. I am really tired right now, Sheila. Just spotted your reply when I was going to bed. The sun is up already. Wow.

I didn't come up with mirroring. The concept is in the Gnostic writings having to do with the creation of this world. I believe it's in the Zohar also.

Love,

Hats

Well, I'm glad to see you!

It's an awesome concept and you took the concept and related it to modern times and put it in more modern terms. It would make a very interesting book, you know? There are very few books covering how animal behavior has progressed and the why and how and how it relates to humans, and no one is covering this in a spiritual sense. I hope we can chat more about this later.

Have a nice sleep, relax. Talk later in the week, I hope!

 

[DagwoodGum]

My "win" on attesting to New OT IV after 5 hours auditing over maybe 15 years was "Thank God that's over at last."

Paul, I've long considered that just the pure relief of thinking "wow, I've completed this and will never have to pay for or stagnate on this damned level again" to be the backbone of and central cog of Scientology completions.
Not to mention the elevated status that one anticipates having as one gets higher on the grade chart.
Also, keeping in mind the claim that at least 50% of wins come from training, I ask "how does one run a process honestly when the cognition of it already occurred to you in the academy when you read the process for the first time?
Hell, those "cogs" were the first thoughts I'd have when I would get run on the processes and I found myself trying to stifle those congnitive reflections I'd had while training in hopes that I could have the processes bite as they were being delivered by my auditor.

 

[pineapple]

So, in essence you got rid of the "tape recorder mechanism" from the clear cog? Why would that not last if the recorder is so called gone?

Well, the reason it doesn't last is because "clear" doesn't work. The solution to clear not working was OT III. You still have pictures after clear? Those aren't yours, they're the BTs' pictures.

In scn the ultimate result is never attained, so there's always something else you need to do, or to have repaired, or to do over.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Once upon a time a scn did a DCSI. Time passed by and being uncertain about the state of clear, did the new Clear check.

Years went by, still uncertain, this person does the new CCRD at an upper org. Blown out by many wins, they joined staff. This was it, finally!

Time went by, and this person was again uncertain about the state of clear and not doing very well in life.

This happened with OTs as well. Returning from recent auditing all shinny and bright, all sorts of really great things happening in their lives and then...crash and burn.

How long does this "High" last? Or has anyone maintained the "High" of attesting to clear or OT?

I was largely free'd from my Scientological perspective when an OT3, L's complete friend said "I've yet to see one example of lasting case gain in Scientology" back in the late 70's.
The Scientology onion began to break apart around me after that point.
As far as the question of "when does one feel normal again?"
I don't know that I've felt entirely normal ever since Hubbard first got into my head when I was in early high school.
Through this board and the shared experiences and knowledge of events in Scientology history that I otherwise would have had no way of knowing about I find that my first thought when I think of Hubbard is that he was a flim flam carney rather than holding onto the shredded perspective that he was some kind of messianic figure.
Knowing he was a lying plagarist, fraud and the backstory behind his plagiarisms dumps all of what he said into my minds circular file and I have little feeling of connection to Scientology or even the feeling that "I am an ex Scientologist" because I think one gets to a point where one no longer defines oneself as a former Scientologist as Scientology is no longer a factor in ones identity one way or another.
That's the normalizing factor in that one no longer defines oneself by have been a part of it.
It then only represents a detour in one's life and is no longer a scarlet letter that one has to wear.
I'd imagine the day will come when there becomes another board based on the concept of being an ex, ex Scientologist that shares the success stories people have experienced in recreating their identities that are no longer Scientology based, ex or otherwise.
I'd like to check out Knowledgism when I get some time after I get my house all fixed up, maybe they have further insights into creating a new non Ron based identity.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Paul, I've long considered that just the pure relief of thinking "wow, I've completed this and will never have to pay for or stagnate on this damned level again" to be the backbone of and central cog of Scientology completions. <snip>

Answered in new thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/elements-of-wins.50078/

Paul

 

[Hatshepsut]

Well, I'm glad to see you!

It's an awesome concept and you took the concept and related it to modern times and put it in more modern terms. It would make a very interesting book, you know? There are very few books covering how animal behavior has progressed and the why and how and how it relates to humans, and no one is covering this in a spiritual sense. I hope we can chat more about this later.

Have a nice sleep, relax. Talk later in the week, I hope!

Decades ago I was intrigued by saying #29 in the Book of Thomas.

(29) Jesus said: If the flesh came into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel. But if the spirit (came into existence) because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels. But as for me, I wonder at this, how this great wealth made its home in this poverty.

Then a few years ago I was listening to a vlog where they were discussing whether all humans have a soul, and at what point this assumption or investing occurs. I couldn't believe it when one doctor said if the developing human doesn't already have one at birth, it will GROW one. I thought it preposterous and conceited to believe there could be such a 'class' system to the quality of spirit.

I began to look at and observe pets closely. My plants too. Relationships fed each other and there seemed to be an increase of an intelligent Presence. Maybe it's a case or reciprocity, where there's simply agreement, 'You be this for me......and I'll be that for you'. Located roles in consciousness keep each other created as what they are. Reading the Enneads reinforced this notion for me. Forms of life come into existence to support other forms and there is a chain structure holding their particular quality or attributes in place. By grace or held by force? I know I'm gettin anal and introspected here.

How we regard spiritual beings is relevant, like whether we think all life is able to convert back into a single Divine nature. I guess that's a kind of animism? Can we agree that spirit is alive and aware of itself, as itself, separate from it's form or goal. Such questions were discussed in the Hermetic Corpus. According to Plotinus, qualities in animating spirit are matched to the forms they make alive. I've dealt with PTS situations where the game afoot and it's respective identities in play, were NOT human. Couldn't even think about the dynamics involved. Just knew I felt stopped and opposed by the forms of their energies. That's when I let go and just allow the images to flash at me. They tell the story, if you let them. They actually need to tell someone.

I very often conflict with people who are acting out an upset where they lost their whole universe. The flashing images tell me why they see me as the enemy, too many times. Like the ancient cities which were built upon the remains of those before them, living beings are compressed by the next wave of conquerors. What's there has collapsed and is used for building material. I think it's why we are having a revolt today.

A paragraph in this article I read on Friday says it well.
http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3707-the-delusional-futurism-of-liberal-world-order-academics
For those not familiar with the ideas behind futurism, I suggest reading my article 'The Meaning Of Good And Evil In Perilous Times'. To summarize, futurists consistently endorse the notion that old methodologies must be erased to make way for new methodologies. Traditions and ideals of the past are considered a prison which holds humanity back from progress and a better tomorrow. They believe that the solution to the imbalances and tragedies of today is to aggressively dismantle the existing system and rebuild it in a new and original way. This includes morals and guiding principles, which they see as stifling and relative.

Some of us just wear a 'resented' beingness. We don't even see it coming. LOL. When my Int was Out I kept having others act out that I was a 'hated' being, and causing harmful effects that would result in loss of everything for everybody. In different milieu, I seemed to extract from people around me, intense inclinations to get rid of me. Their words were always identical.... feelings confusing even to themselves as to why they really felt the way they did. How could so many react to me in the exact same way when I was being so benign. After attesting to Clear, I was kinda outside my body, while living among people identified with their humanity. I immediately found myself enveloped in an old mind, old valence, with a lot of vicious machinery. There were violent unresolved scripts I was carrying. I'd see a part of my packaging move over to blanket someone into a corresponding role, and they'd attack me, always. The involuntary re-enactment was painful. Where initially my affinity for others skyrocketed, I now seemed to inflame and be regarded as a supreme threat.

I think that automaticities are designed to settle back in upon a person in order to keep the existing matrix intact. Some INTENTION up top of the chain of Beings may be holding things in place. But then, apples suspended from a tree might panic and have no place to go, if the main body was to vanish into the ethers like Ezekial on his chariot

 

[DagwoodGum]

I couldn't believe it when one doctor said if the developing human doesn't already have one at birth, it will GROW one.

Hatshepsut,
As my biological father ran a center for autistic children out in Marysville, Washington I have a proposed answer to that conundrum. Perhaps the body has the ability to operate independently of having a soul operating it, Hubbard called it the genetic entity. I've interacted with a number of autistic children and though they can operate, it's at a base level that can be enhanced by gentle and continuous care by trained professionals, but it is often immediately apparent that they just don't have the same type of consciousness as the non-autistic. I hope not to offend those with autistic children as I'm not saying they are not valuable in their own right, just that without specific training they have a tough time operating in a highly complex world. Perhaps autism is the condition of being born with a damaged body/soul interface and resultingly a soul could not be planted in that body. I've never seen an autistic person completely cured of their condition but I would like to as I hope it can happen. I've come to the conclusion that our purpose as souls is to animate God's animations but that some are broken and cannot be piloted.
You mentioned carrying a script that would affect how others treated you and I can relate. I unraveled mine to come from a mean spirited horses ass of a step dad that had been passed off as my real dad by my mother and all my relatives. I could see something change in them when they made eye contact with me, they went immediately "on guard" so that the secret didn't leak out through them. At 22 yrs old a cousin of mine got just tipsy enough at the 4th of July party at their cabin and told me the truth. It has taken years to unravel the mental straight-jacket this circumstance left me in. In fact that had a hand in my leaving Scientology because I could see that they had nothing in their grade chart that could or would ever address this unusual set of circumstances. No one has any idea what a lie like that does to someones sense of self and how it effects the feelings others have for you too through some kind of overlap of consciousness. it got real fucked up when he discovered that his former girlfriend had his daughter around the time I was born from my real father but his parents were devoutly Catholic and wouldn't accept his Lutheran girlfriend, they were head cases. He was forced by circumstances to raise me rather than his real daughter. So he married my mother and had to adopt me as terms of the proposal and his own mother, my step grandmother originated to me on her own accord "you couldn't have pleased him no matter what you did as he was against you being part of the package from the get go. I had to straighten his ass out". Well, she accepted my mother because she was Catholic and that was the bottom line back in those days. When a child marinates in the hatred from a supposed father, he introverts on it and tries to figure out why he is hated but he doesn't have the key pieces to the puzzle so it gets put together all wrong.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Hatshepsut,
As my biological father ran a center for autistic children out in Marysville, Washington I have a proposed answer to that conundrum. Perhaps the body has the ability to operate independently of having a soul operating it, Hubbard called it the genetic entity. I've interacted with a number of autistic children and though they can operate, it's at a base level that can be enhanced by gentle and continuous care by trained professionals, but it is often immediately apparent that they just don't have the same type of consciousness as the non-autistic. I hope not to offend those with autistic children as I'm not saying they are not valuable in their own right, just that without specific training they have a tough time operating in a highly complex world. Perhaps autism is the condition of being born with a damaged body/soul interface and resultingly a soul could not be planted in that body. I've never seen an autistic person completely cured of their condition but I would like to as I hope it can happen. I've come to the conclusion that our purpose as souls is to animate God's animations but that some are broken and cannot be piloted.
You mentioned carrying a script that would affect how others treated you and I can relate. I unraveled mine to come from a mean spirited horses ass of a step dad that had been passed off as my real dad by my mother and all my relatives. I could see something change in them when they made eye contact with me, they went immediately "on guard" so that the secret didn't leak out through them. At 22 yrs old a cousin of mine got just tipsy enough at the 4th of July party at their cabin and told me the truth. It has taken years to unravel the mental straight-jacket this circumstance left me in. In fact that had a hand in my leaving Scientology because I could see that they had nothing in their grade chart that could or would ever address this unusual set of circumstances. No one has any idea what a lie like that does to someones sense of self and how it effects the feelings others have for you too through some kind of overlap of consciousness. it got real fucked up when he discovered that his former girlfriend had his daughter around the time I was born from my real father but his parents were devoutly Catholic and wouldn't accept his Lutheran girlfriend, they were head cases. He was forced by circumstances to raise me rather than his real daughter. So he married my mother and had to adopt me as terms of the proposal and his own mother, my step grandmother originated to me on her own accord "you couldn't have pleased him no matter what you did as he was against you being part of the package from the get go. I had to straighten his ass out". Well, she accepted my mother because she was Catholic and that was the bottom line back in those days. When a child marinates in the hatred from a supposed father, he introverts on it and tries to figure out why he is hated but he doesn't have the key pieces to the puzzle so it gets put together all wrong.

We have two members of the family that were on some level of the autism spectrum. The family's decision was to ignore it and let the babies grow out of it. I thought my brother's youngest son was without hope. The boy was disciplined out of the habits of bouncing on his tip toes and waving and flopping his limp wrists. He still talks like his tongue is too fat for his palette. He's 17 now and awkward in school. He cries when comparing himself to his genius of a brother who is two yrs older. Both boys are engineering geniuses. I never thought the autism would go away. It hasn't. But he's going to graduate next year. There's understandable worry about choosing a career as emotional outbursts come as they do, as well as the tendencies for conflict, typical for teenagers. I think miracles do happen though. The spirits of this and that descendeth.

In some instances I regard a condition as a spiritual construct of cluster. The Elizabethan scientist, Dr John Dee called upon certain phenomenon as if it were an Aeon that could be spoken to personally.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/aeon
Aeon, also spelled Eon, (Greek: “age,” or “lifetime”), in Gnosticism and Manichaeism, one of the orders of spirits, or spheres of being, that emanated from the Godhead and were attributes of the nature of the absolute; an important element in the cosmology that developed around the central concept of Gnostic dualism— ...

I had done the 3 Lists as repairs at Flag. These weren't Ls. The purpose was to assess to find for reasons a person is so charged they've gone out of valence. The same list is used on everyone. It's an attempt to discover life force we're carrying, which is overwhelmed and 'being' the attitudes, conditions etc on each list. The way the items are called off to you is session is like they do on Ls. It must carry a bit of bite. I think. It's a search and discover for anima which has been hammered in a way that is harmful to the PC, by harsh counter forces. I looked at this and realized I had been the effect many times without my even knowing it. Scientology didn't let me look at how I was being molded or created by the counter efforts I was receiving. It was overlooked. Today, I pay attention to 'how' others are creating me with their view of me. It affects me. The freed up life force that used to have fixidity, wants new hats. That's its purpose.... to do just that.

Oh, back to John Dee 007. I think he regarded the angels as forces...planets, passions, the sea. War. Everything was regarded as a thetan. He was said to be working his magic for the crown by communicating as such. Some say this brought a pall upon the world, a rage from sleeping aeons who preferred not to be bothered by foolish men. I never regard everything as a theta. I am comfortable with the old theta/ mest theory of conquest. But in relieving some of drama I seemed to be replaying, I had to ask if this was my theta or OT III type beings smashed into being the 'condition'. I found both to be true an irrelevant which.

I picked up a lot of false ideas about self from my mother. I was drawn into her orbit thru the fetus and a tractor beam. Tractors so often have to do with the dance of heady opponents. Getting born into a domestic situation where it's not intended for you to pull off any win is tough. You don't come in with a cache of credit cards and immediate allies. We have to find sure footing. Good advice is to always put yourself around people who want you to do well. If not, break orbit before negative games steal your energy.

When mom is upset with me there is a huge static electricity in the air and a swelling up of an old game valence from the Triassic period. There are somehow ballooning character roles that swamp me til I feel like a bee trapped under a glass jar. In these moments, I've no choice. I've been hatted.....earmarked for contest! And I really don't want to play. But when the sections of her composite valence become energized, the intention is to WIN the fiery battle. I' had run away from home several times to find a sense of future instead of one of foreboding. The point I make is these energies can be powerful enough to tamper with free will. In families, we take the chance of having roles forced upon us that we don't deserve or want. False reasons why may be assigned to calamity or conditions. It can hang us up.

My nephew is just like a regular kid today. Nobody would know unless they already were familiar with the syndrome. Like the tendency to hoard little menageries in the pockets and line them up......over and over. Things could have been worse if the parents had accepted the negative viewpoint that was popularly accepted. I was one of those who said 'that family is in denial'. I feel ashamed of doing that today.

 

[JustSheila]

Decades ago I was intrigued by saying #29 in the Book of Thomas.

(29) Jesus said: If the flesh came into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel. But if the spirit (came into existence) because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels. But as for me, I wonder at this, how this great wealth made its home in this poverty.

Then a few years ago I was listening to a vlog where they were discussing whether all humans have a soul, and at what point this assumption or investing occurs. I couldn't believe it when one doctor said if the developing human doesn't already have one at birth, it will GROW one. I thought it preposterous and conceited to believe there could be such a 'class' system to the quality of spirit.

I began to look at and observe pets closely. My plants too. Relationships fed each other and there seemed to be an increase of an intelligent Presence. Maybe it's a case or reciprocity, where there's simply agreement, 'You be this for me......and I'll be that for you'. Located roles in consciousness keep each other created as what they are. Reading the Enneads reinforced this notion for me. Forms of life come into existence to support other forms and there is a chain structure holding their particular quality or attributes in place. By grace or held by force? I know I'm gettin anal and introspected here.

How we regard spiritual beings is relevant, like whether we think all life is able to convert back into a single Divine nature. I guess that's a kind of animism? Can we agree that spirit is alive and aware of itself, as itself, separate from it's form or goal. Such questions were discussed in the Hermetic Corpus. According to Plotinus, qualities in animating spirit are matched to the forms they make alive. I've dealt with PTS situations where the game afoot and it's respective identities in play, were NOT human. Couldn't even think about the dynamics involved. Just knew I felt stopped and opposed by the forms of their energies. That's when I let go and just allow the images to flash at me. They tell the story, if you let them. They actually need to tell someone.

I very often conflict with people who are acting out an upset where they lost their whole universe. The flashing images tell me why they see me as the enemy, too many times. Like the ancient cities which were built upon the remains of those before them, living beings are compressed by the next wave of conquerors. What's there has collapsed and is used for building material. I think it's why we are having a revolt today.

A paragraph in this article I read on Friday says it well.
http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3707-the-delusional-futurism-of-liberal-world-order-academics
For those not familiar with the ideas behind futurism, I suggest reading my article 'The Meaning Of Good And Evil In Perilous Times'. To summarize, futurists consistently endorse the notion that old methodologies must be erased to make way for new methodologies. Traditions and ideals of the past are considered a prison which holds humanity back from progress and a better tomorrow. They believe that the solution to the imbalances and tragedies of today is to aggressively dismantle the existing system and rebuild it in a new and original way. This includes morals and guiding principles, which they see as stifling and relative.

Some of us just wear a 'resented' beingness. We don't even see it coming. LOL. When my Int was Out I kept having others act out that I was a 'hated' being, and causing harmful effects that would result in loss of everything for everybody. In different milieu, I seemed to extract from people around me, intense inclinations to get rid of me. Their words were always identical.... feelings confusing even to themselves as to why they really felt the way they did. How could so many react to me in the exact same way when I was being so benign. After attesting to Clear, I was kinda outside my body, while living among people identified with their humanity. I immediately found myself enveloped in an old mind, old valence, with a lot of vicious machinery. There were violent unresolved scripts I was carrying. I'd see a part of my packaging move over to blanket someone into a corresponding role, and they'd attack me, always. The involuntary re-enactment was painful. Where initially my affinity for others skyrocketed, I now seemed to inflame and be regarded as a supreme threat.

I think that automaticities are designed to settle back in upon a person in order to keep the existing matrix intact. Some INTENTION up top of the chain of Beings may be holding things in place. But then, apples suspended from a tree might panic and have no place to go, if the main body was to vanish into the ethers like Ezekial on his chariot

Good morning, Hats!

That's a terrific quote. Intriguing, for sure.

You know me, I don't go in for all the past life stuff, but animal behavior and how it relates to humans and spirit is right up my alley.

I like to keep things simple, and humans and animals have far more in common than most people are willing to admit. You won't find many Christians promoting the fact that Genesis describes how God first offered various animals to Adam as mates, which Adam refused. Was it sense of humor on God's part? Was sense of humor even created yet? Or was the more obvious true, that God regarded Adam as an animal, but Adam turned out to be a separate species of animal and otherwise, there was no real difference?

I've dealt extensively with mildly to severely autistic children and adults. I see it as a bit of a brain glitch, an ability to mirror (sometimes scarily well), but without the inherent/automatic social comprehension that goes with it. The more severe the autism, the less and less a person can comprehend or even care about others' feelings or actions. Some autistic persons realize the effect on others afterward. They're just comprehending the cues too late. Others can't comprehend (or care) about others at all. There's a bit difference in scale.

Among other things, those that can't comprehend or empathize with others also blame them for their feelings and assign their feelings to them. They feel hate and a desire to destroy, but they will say that YOU feel that way toward them. Then they will act out in such a hateful, nasty way that you lose patience and feel angry and then wonder - or even believe - that the feelings they assigned to you might actually be true?

Think animals. If some beast is in pain and aggressively attacks you, it could be for anything. You moved your hand too fast, you stepped over a line, you turned your back, whatever. The beast comes at you and you bristle up, get ready to defend, or you run away. If you get ready to defend, the beast claims "you caused it to attack," or "you acted hateful and aggressive toward it." If you run away, then you did something wrong and had something to hide. In the beast's world, it's always you that is wrong. There's never a thought about its own feelings or actions or why. They automatically change the sequence in which things happen, too. The other person is always to blame, always started it, blah blah.

There's lots of people like that. Whether severe autism or some other malady, they assign their own feelings and actions to others.

 

[RogerB]

So, the questions is:
How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

Err, umm, I always thought that Hubbard's proposition was that getting rid of the "reactive mind" and going "Clear" was you returning to your true and normal, before becoming aberrated, self!

That's cheeky I know
/

 

[RogerB]

Actually, apart from my smart ass post above, my view is that there are some wonderful posts with wonderful points of wisdom contained in this thread.

Coincidentally I was caused to have to address this material below on my forum this morning. It relates to posts I made back in February, 2013 on various Facebook groups dealing with tech issues.

. . . with this one catch-up post you are getting several posts from earlier forums combined into this one . . .
This first one was originally posted elsewhere back in February, 2013.

Charge and the BEGINNING of Case​

In my opening post on this thread, I noted that the "basis of case is a positive." And comments showed this basic truth is rather real to you all.

This post follows by dealing with: "what is case?" How did it come into being and why has it created the effects on us that it has.

The basic positive underlying all of this is in the vein of that we reached to know, love, experience, relate, be in Unity with, co-create and reciprocate . . . and all that fun stuff.

That reach resulted in us coming into a oneness and being at-one with the existence we sought to know, love, experience, etc. This was the point wherein we were in Unity and Union, perfectly duplicating the existence of other spiritual Life-Force presences.

For reasons you will discover as you progress, something occurred that we didn't want to experience, and it increased to such intensity as to become anathema to us.

It was so un-experienceable that we shattered the union to get away from it.

To be noted is that, that experience was all throughout our Being as infinite Presences in Union as a Unity of oneness.

So, what was it that was so anathema to us that we had to get away from the Union that we had formerly loved, enjoyed and were at one time seeking and even demanding to experience?

To answer this question we need to look at one of the basic positives we practiced and enjoyed in that union. That positive was the reciprocation of moods/emotions and imagery (spiritual holographic imagery and sensation) . . . this "exchange" of reciprocated delights formed or acted as a form of "motion" (flows) between the "polarities" we alternated between within what was actually the "static" of the infinite spiritual presence of us at that time. These flows afford delights of experience

What happened, was that "charge" began to build up and accumulate. I'll not be giving you my version of why/how: that would not be appropriate here.

A definition is in order here. LRH gave us some definitions of "charge and BPC." They are in the Scn dictionary. A regular dictionary as well as science dictionaries define charge (in simple terms) as: "The accumulating or building up of energy." (Going to the books is in order here) In Kn, we have definitively articulated what "charge" is . . . you can read on this in my write-up on Meter Reads and Using the Meter.

In that lovely wanted game of long ago, the enjoyed reciprocation of flows of spiritual Life-Force (energy) began to slow and then become stuck and build up as accumulated unfulfilled exchange. And that is the genesis of the "charge" and stuck/stopped flows of energy that accumulated. Some wags refer to it as our "own spiritual Life-Force that went wrong."

The solution to the untenable experience and spiritual pain of the accumulated energy within was the wrong answer of "getting out of here" to go elsewhere. _)L

And thus, this led to the existence of a bunch of "disconnected" spiritual Beings running about trying to solve the next problem.

In later posts, I'll explain what happened later in the sequence . . . it involves the accumulation of friends and forming up into spiritual teams.

For now I will post a file on our Knowledgism "Charge Handling Process"

There is a history to it and its development, and I'll give you that as well. This because this subject of "charge" and our correct understanding and handling of it is perhaps the, or certainly one of the, most important pieces of tech I can pass on to you.
Rog

****​

This one more recently . . .​

CHARGE versus SIGNIFICANCE.​

Let's review some of the history of our subject. What I want to point out to you is where the subject went off the rails and began to "fail."

If one goes to 1950 with the publication of DMSMH, we find that in dealing with "engrams" one was in actuality addressing and dealing the charge and force on the case. To get where I am going with this little ditty, it might be good to do a refresher and the material already on this thread and the write-up on "charge."

During the '50's lot's of processes and techniques were developed that dealt with the "charge, force and mass" on the case. These in essence were the issues upper most in he books 8-80 and 8-8008. CofHA did also, but also mainly dealt with direct address to spiritual abilities and powers.

During 1962 we were dealing with the actual "living lightening" of own goals and deployment of our spiritual Life-Force. In around December, 1962, LRH wrote that the "Reliable Items" of the line plots of the Goals Problems Masses contained both SIGNIFICANCE AND MASS. Alan defined mass very well in his Knowledgism dictionary . . . but in essence it is simply coagulated, encysted and compounded charge and force. (Spiritual Life-Force that has been mis-applied and gone wrong.)

However, the tragedy is that the tech of '62-'63 never dealt with the MASS in those "Reliable Items" LRH spoke of. In actuality, the tech only located and articulated the SIGNIFICANCE (in the form of the name and concept-content) of the item. No action was taken to unlock the force, charge and mass of or contained in the items of the GPM other than to cross-oppose items one to the other. Believe me, I was there and went through God knows how many hours and items of that stuff in '62 and '63.

In around April, '63, LRH abandoned own Goals and the truth of our deployed spiritual Life-Force, stating all Goals found (early) on a case are not your own, but implants! And off he went into THE SIGNIFICANCES of their content. And to be noted, again there was no true or real address to the charge, force and mass contained therein. 3N was the process used in '63, and I did hours upon hours of it . . .

In retrospect now, if one looks at "The Bridge" one can see that once one goes "Clear," however it is attained: all subsequent actions merely only address SIGNIFICANCE not the actual charge, force and mass on the case (though OT3 does deal with some to a degree). NOTs does not . . . it is all an exercise in finding SIGNIFICANCES.
Looking at the KSW "Bridge" as now implement, the question arises: where is and how much of the Charge, Force and Mass on the case addressed and handled?

NOT MUCH if in any real measure.

I write this to point out to you that one of the very clear statements Alan Walter made was that THE CHARGE, FORCE AND MASS ON THE CASE IS THE PRIME TARGET. That is, that is what is to be found, addressed and handled.

You'll notice his R/Ds all get you into the force, charge and mass and have you handle it.

The huge wins Dex and you other guys are reporting from the "Unpleasant Sensations Handling" and the "De-Dot procedures" of identity handling, and the many other processes and R/Ds posted here are the result of those R/Ds directly addressing and handling the force, charge and mass on the case.
Sad to say, that vital action has diminished to the point of almost being completely dropped out of the KSW Bridge.

Paul Adams with his "Paul's Robot" "Rub and Yawn" etc., does a good job of reducing the force, charge and mass off of the case. It is a good intro level for newbie types to get started with.

For the rest of you, I want to invite you to realize how important this issue of the force, charge and mass is that has been missed being handled in the KSW Bridge.

We have lots of it on our cases. Make no mistake about that. You'll be dealing with it till you are "caseless" J
The other side of the coin is that some folks are hugely BIG on only hunting for and ruminating about in the "thinkingness" of things and the shuffling about of significances . . . they continuously bounce out of and away from the force, charge and mass of and on their cases. You'll see it all the time on discussion boards.

Also to be noted, now that I've posted the "Charge Handling Process" is that LRH and his tech never really dealt with "charge" . . . he did manage to trigger and key out lots of old by-passed charge by getting the significance element of the area or subject . . . but he never dealt with or truly addressed the CHARGE that is hung up in all the events of our existence. And, of course, dealing only with the significance on the case, one has left all or most of the force, charge and mass in place.

To be recognized is the fact that it is in THE FORCE, CHARGE AND MASS that your powers, awareness and sovereignty are locked up. And you'll only recover your powers and sovereignty by address THE FORCE, CHARGE AND MASS on you case.

Rog​

****
Now to the real reason for today's post.
ROGER'S CHARGE HANDLING PROCEDURE​

The history of the development of this R/D is also given in this document . . . and you'll see Alan's original, original version of March 2001, as written up on the board during a lecture I am about to post as part of the Charge and By-Passed Charge set of videos.
Attached is the pdf of CHARGE HANDLING PROCESS Roger's Version
R

/

 

[DagwoodGum]

Good morning, Hats!

That's a terrific quote. Intriguing, for sure.

You know me, I don't go in for all the past life stuff, but animal behavior and how it relates to humans and spirit is right up my alley.

I like to keep things simple, and humans and animals have far more in common than most people are willing to admit. You won't find many Christians promoting the fact that Genesis describes how God first offered various animals to Adam as mates, which Adam refused. Was it sense of humor on God's part? Was sense of humor even created yet? Or was the more obvious true, that God regarded Adam as an animal, but Adam turned out to be a separate species of animal and otherwise, there was no real difference?

I've dealt extensively with mildly to severely autistic children and adults. I see it as a bit of a brain glitch, an ability to mirror (sometimes scarily well), but without the inherent/automatic social comprehension that goes with it. The more severe the autism, the less and less a person can comprehend or even care about others' feelings or actions. Some autistic persons realize the effect on others afterward. They're just comprehending the cues too late. Others can't comprehend (or care) about others at all. There's a bit difference in scale.

Among other things, those that can't comprehend or empathize with others also blame them for their feelings and assign their feelings to them. They feel hate and a desire to destroy, but they will say that YOU feel that way toward them. Then they will act out in such a hateful, nasty way that you lose patience and feel angry and then wonder - or even believe - that the feelings they assigned to you might actually be true?

Think animals. If some beast is in pain and aggressively attacks you, it could be for anything. You moved your hand too fast, you stepped over a line, you turned your back, whatever. The beast comes at you and you bristle up, get ready to defend, or you run away. If you get ready to defend, the beast claims "you caused it to attack," or "you acted hateful and aggressive toward it." If you run away, then you did something wrong and had something to hide. In the beast's world, it's always you that is wrong. There's never a thought about its own feelings or actions or why. They automatically change the sequence in which things happen, too. The other person is always to blame, always started it, blah blah.

There's lots of people like that. Whether severe autism or some other malady, they assign their own feelings and actions to others.

Sheila,
That's why my doctrine is to be kind to animals and all lesser forms including damaged humans.
If God created them and the saying "God is everywhere" can be taken literally then would not God feel his creations pain from being abused or killed?
It was the American Native Indians way to stop by the animal they killed and help facilitate the animal souls departure from the body, thanking it for the food and thanking God for the gift.
I used to hunt and always felt really bad when I killed a deer, now I don't hunt anymore because I love seeing them and there won't be any to see if we keep killing them as a sport.
How is it sporting, and why would that act make one a "sportsman" for blowing wildlife to kingdom come with high powered rifles?
The Indians were also kind to tribe members that had mental conditions and thought of them as touched by the hand of God who were to be respected and honored.

 

[No One]

Not specifically ever finished Clear or OT, (lots of reviews though) but in the Sea Org, one is expected to automatically be OT anyway, so there's that... I really do not think I've ever felt completely 'normal' again after being involved with the COS from childhood through to middle age.
What 30, maybe 40 years later and still struggling with the past and currently still the effect of disconnection policies.
UGH, what a mess.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Think animals. If some beast is in pain and aggressively attacks you, it could be for anything. You moved your hand too fast, you stepped over a line, you turned your back, whatever. The beast comes at you and you bristle up, get ready to defend, or you run away. If you get ready to defend, the beast claims "you caused it to attack," or "you acted hateful and aggressive toward it." If you run away, then you did something wrong and had something to hide. In the beast's world, it's always you that is wrong. There's never a thought about its own feelings or actions or why. They automatically change the sequence in which things happen, too. The other person is always to blame, always started it, blah blah.

I LOVE This! A real aha moment for me. THANKS Sheila. Still chortling here while thinking of incidents where I've seen this true.

 

[renegade]

Well, the reason it doesn't last is because "clear" doesn't work. The solution to clear not working was OT III. You still have pictures after clear? Those aren't yours, they're the BTs' pictures.

In scn the ultimate result is never attained, so there's always something else you need to do, or to have repaired, or to do over.

There's a reference about a person having no pictures and they are derogatorily called a "Black case" and require special handling. Clear and Ot make you a Black case?

No "ultimate" results, sounds like a loophole how the still-ins can be told, "You are not Clear, re-do the Purif, Objectives, and NED." And they never question the validity of the tech.

Makes me wonder if the removal of the state of clear, re-do rundowns, re-buy the "new" books and tapes, was a ploy of dm to filter out anyone who would not toe the line and pay up for empty buildings and more.

His EP of the Pay Again Bashing Rundown: Remaining scn obey, do not question anything and result in the removal of those that resist his command intentions.

 

[Gib]

So, the questions is:
How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

Err, umm, I always thought that Hubbard's proposition was that getting rid of the "reactive mind" and going "Clear" was you returning to your true and normal, before becoming aberrated, self!

That's cheeky I know
/

"Err, umm, I always thought that Hubbard's proposition was that getting rid of the "reactive mind" and going "Clear" was you returning to your true and normal, before becoming aberrated, self!"

That's true, and how you became aberrated was because of words which were spoken when one is unconscious, and those words acted as hypnotic commands. And once one goes clear, why one now with scientology is supposed to go OT or cause over MEST.

Little did I know and not until after I got out, I realized there was no reactive mind nor OT, I never ran an engram with words spoken that acted as hypnotic commands for me to follow. In fact, what I realized is the hypnotic commands I was to follow was by reading and listening to Hubbard's millions of words, those were the hypnotic commands, clever he was.

 

[phenomanon]

HI Hats! It's been a long time. Good to see you!


I REALLY like this idea (above). Animals do this all the time - wild animals become humanized when we take care of them, and they take on human traits and human likes and dislikes as well.

People also do it.

"Mirroring" is a great word for this. This is a terrific philosophy and I've never heard it before. Did you come up with this yourself? Wow. Seriously cool.

I liked it, too.

 

[pineapple]

There's a reference about a person having no pictures and they are derogatorily called a "Black case" and require special handling. Clear and Ot make you a Black case?

Actually, IIRC a "Black V" (five) was a case that couldn't see pictures, only blackness. A clear (in theory) has erased his own pictures, but can still intentionally mock them up. And of course he'd soon discover he still had pictures he wasn't intentionally mocking up. Those pictures supposedly come from BT's.

 

[programmer_guy]

<snip> A clear (in theory) has erased his own pictures, but can still intentionally mock them up. And of course he'd soon discover he still had pictures he wasn't intentionally mocking up. Those pictures supposedly come from BT's.

Supposedly a Clear has erased all "charge" in the, so-called, "reactive mind" but not the "memories"... just "charge".

But since the notion of the state of "Clear" failed, Hubbard invented the notion of Body Thetans and carried on from there in pre-OT levels. (He wouldn't admit that they were pre-OT levels ... just OT levels on the SCN Grade Chart.)

Also, IIRC, Hubbard eventually said that the state of "Clear" was just on the 1st Dynamic. Excuses excuses.
(Correct me if I am wrong on this particular item.)

 

[renegade]

Supposedly a Clear has erased all "charge" in the, so-called, "reactive mind" but not the "memories"... just "charge".

Does that mean a clear still had pictures but any reaction to them were "Handled" and would not affect the pc? The idea was now recovered unconscious reactive memories were now stored into the "Analytical Mind" after auditing, which now did not affect the pc in a reactive manner. You have access to them at will, but they were no longer abberrative?