Is there any good in Scientology?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Wedinn, Dec 28, 2018.

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  1. Wedinn

    Wedinn Patron

    I've always been fascinated by the idea of self-discovery and the search for truth. With that in mind, I checked the internet for movements with such principles, and for a while Scientology was right up my alley.
    I checked their websites, watched their videos and even did some courses, but I never got around to reading any of the books, because I soon found out that the CoS is greedy and abusive, and I've sort of been keeping them in the back of my mind ever since.
    Is it worth reading church literature? Is there anything good and inspiring in books like "Dianetics" or "The fundamentals of thought"?
     
  2. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Naturally, you are on an EX-scientologist message board so 99% of the people here will tell you to run (not walk) away from anything to do with Scientology.

    Many of the folks here spent decades and many hundreds of thousands of dollars, only to learn later that it is nothing more than a cruel, avaricious and abusive hoax.

    Read what ex-scientologists say and you will find out why nearly 100% of Scientologists leave.

    As far as Hubbard's books, why not read something that contains a little bit of truth instead. You'd get far more "knowledge" by reading a train schedule book and it wouldn't cost anything. By the way, talking about trains, did you know that L. Ron Hubbard nearly got run over by a freight train on the planet Venus the other day? Yes, that is what he "taught" all Scientologists. You can find great value in his books, because you will learn much about of his intergalactic exploits and miraculous powers. LOL
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  3. Wedinn

    Wedinn Patron

    Oh, I am aware of the controversy surrounding Scientology and of the abuses that are going on behind the scenes, but I've noticed that some people still hold onto church values after leaving, like freezoners.
    That made me wonder whether or not there is anything valuable in Hubbard's writings, Venus and Xenu aside.
     
  4. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Is there any good in Scientology? Yes, but it's hard to separate it from the bad and one cannot do it while in Scientology because discussion of Scn is forbidden there.

    (I'm not a freezoner. My "stuff" includes bits cherry-picked from Scn, but some violates cherished Scn principles and much is based on original research.)

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  5. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Yes. If you look hard enough, you can find a little bit of good in almost anything or anybody.
     
  6. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    What Sheila says is true, but if you saw a nice juicy sweetcorn kernel embedded in a turd would you want to eat it? I don't think so.
     
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  7. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Since you mention "The Fundamentals of Thought", that was the first book I read about Scientology and long before I actually got involved with the CofS. I still like the chapter (The Reason Why) about purposes, games, freedom and barriers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  8. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    As Sheila and Paul implied above, sure, there are some things that are good.

    But from the perspective of a mouse, there are some good things in a mousetrap. Namely, the cheese. However, attempts to eat (or extract) that cheese could cause tremendous damage to him, if not kill him.

    And in my opinion, Scientology is very similar to that mousetrap. And the intentions of Hubbard were similar to the man who put out the mousetrap.

    While Hubbard and his "church" portray themselves and their teachings as a road to truth and freedom, the writings are full of lies and deception, and he created an organization which tends to enslave its members rather than freeing anyone.

    Like you, I was fascinated as well by the idea of self-discovery and the search for truth, and was attracted to Scientology based upon some things written by Hubbard. And based upon my experience over ten years, Scientology is the very last place I'd send someone who was on such a quest.

    Hubbard told hundreds of lies, about his own life and accomplishments, about the research he claimed to have done, about the abilities to be gained from applying Scientology to ones life, and many other things. For someone whom is on a search for truth why would you look for guidance from someone that lies their ass off?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  9. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    There's a lot of good stuff in the books of the 50s, but you have to read them as ideas to be evaluated and tested, not as Truth. I'm not sure he wrote anything free of ulterior motives after that.
     
  10. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    I personally believe one of the most insidious points of damage of Scientology is that it addresses the ego and confuses and conflates, intentionally, that with spiritual growth. The naive get snookered.
     
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  11. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    If we start in 1950, with Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, there were some outrageous claims made in the book, including those made for the abilities of a Clear that have never been demonstrated.

    Isn't fraudulent marketing indicative of ulterior motives?

    And how can one evaluate the ideas in that book without a preliminary study of psychology? Without that, one will come across ideas and techniques which they'll ascribe to the author while remaining unaware of their true origin.

    Dianetics, a form of abreaction therapy, isn't exactly the amazing 'discovery' as described by Hubbard.

    And most importantly, as Dulloldfart wrote above:
    Someone new to the subject would have no hope of being able to separate the good from the bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  12. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    Me too. But in scn, there is no more search for truth, because the truth has been found for all time by L. Ron Hubbard. And any suggestion that truth lies elsewhere is not looked upon kindly. Scn is the death of intellectual freedom.

    The biggest self-discovery is after you leave, when you realize how wrong you were and how easily you can be fooled.

    Look elsewhere.
     
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  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    Here is a good way for you to find out the answer to your question. . .

    The 4th word in "DIANETICS" is science. Read the title:

    Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health.​

    Then look up the word "science" in a free on-line dictionary.

    Then Google "Clear", which is the entire purpose of Dianetics, to make a Clear.

    Then, look online (for free) for as many minutes, hours, days, weeks, years or decades as you want to find any scientific evidence that any human being ever attained the abilities of a "Clear" since 1950.

    If you do the above, you won't even need to read the 5th words of the book Dianetics, or any other Hubbard books or 10 million words that Hubbard used in all his published BIG LIES.


    ps: There is an entire thread on this message board that has a FILMED lecture by Hubbard himself, some years after he published Dianetics where Hubbard admits that Dianetics does not produce a clear. GO TO LINK.

    Yet, Hubbard kept selling the Dianetics books and courses for decades after that and never informed his customers that it didn't produce a Clear. Still want to read his books? LOL
     
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  14. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Hubbard beat and cheated on and abandoned his wives. All three of them.

    Hubbard abandoned his children.

    Hubbard cheated on Don Purcell...a benefactor that tried to help Hubbard.

    Hubbard cheated and lied to the VA with fake injuries while selling a book wherein he claimed he cured himself of the same injuries.

    Hubbard cheated and lied about his war record...claiming combat injuries that he never saw combat so he couldn't sustain those injuries.

    Hubbard cheated and lied his way into the military.

    Hubbard cheated and lied his way out of the military.

    Hubbard cheated and lied to the government about his income.

    Hubbard cheated and lied to Parsons while the two of them practiced Satanism.

    Hubbard lied about his various exploits of being an Indian bloodbrother and Mongols and Buddhists and Pygmies.

    Hubbard cheated and lied with his name authoring plagiarized works such as various rundowns and procedures and books.

    Hubbard cheated and lied with his Russian Handbook hoax.

    But if you believe that there's truth worth studying in his lectures and books and policies then knock yourself out.
     
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  15. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    There IS bit of workable stuff in Scientology. There is also a ton of lies, half truths, misdirection and evil traps.

    It might be possible to carefully research, test and figure out which is which, but why? NO ONE has been able to do that in 70 years.

    Because of the lies and misdirection built into the"tech", the job would be essentially impossible and certainly not worth it.
     
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  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Step back and look at the progression of ideas Hubbard created.

    Starting with Dianetics in 1950 it is the reactive mind that is the cause of all our problems. The solution is the erasure of engrams. There are prenatal engrams but we aren't going whole track yet. The reality level is more along the lines of traditional psychology.

    Within two years there is "What to Audit" aka "A History of Man" and we are now immortal spiritual beings that have lived trillions of years and countless lifetimes in alien societies and we are a composite: mind (with a reactive mind), body and thetan. And oh yeah, something called the genetic entity which seems to have been lost in the footnotes.

    Also in 1952 LRH is communicating with invisible Targs while on the meter, beings from another dimension who want to invade the physical universe but this concept doesn't go over well and is shelved until...

    In 1967 LRH creates the Sea Org and OT III is pitched on the ship where he conveniently has total control over everyone and all communications. Now we are trying to get rid of 75 million year old heavily traumatized disembodied thetans called Body Thetans aka BT's from overpopulated alien societies, with very aggressive tax auditors, that seem to have an insatiable inclination to stick to us. Where they go and who they stick to after we get rid of them and if we need to do this with every new body seems to be left vague.

    The next several levels of OT deal with BTs who had a drug problem or now there is an issue with whether the things you audited in the past were actually your things or BT things. We wonder if BTs can also have BTs?

    Then finally we discover that we mocked it all up.

    Conveniently all these things are completely unproven and unprovable. Each concept when accepted allows for a vast potentiality of other concepts each as subjective as the last. There are very interesting ideas in Scientology and it is interesting to use those ideas to analyze the irrationality of Scientology itself. For example, the idea of the Stable Datum. A single thing around which all other things can be brought out of a state of confusion. The greatest stable datum in Scientology after the reactive mind is Hubbard's concept of thetan. If you do not accept this premise then 99% of his doctrine becomes so much fantasy drek. But once you accept this idea then it all becomes feasible. This is the problem with a belief in spirituality - maybe it is and maybe it isn't but in the mean time somebody can exploit the unknown. After you accept KSW as a stable datum then no other idea is feasible, and oh yeah, you look like a complete idiot on video (read: TC).

    Scientology is excellent as a study of creating a progressive system of ideas that lead an individual into fundamentalism over unproven things that promise infinite potential while all the time hobbling individuality, intellectualism, critical thinking, freedom of association and communication, personal integrity and truth.

    In the end you will however be able to enjoy some very unique and eclectic culty humor.
     
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  17. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Where's Shelly?

    And all of this is the bare essential truth to say the least.
    Add the fact that they'll rob you of all your money. They practice robbing people just like you through smoke and mirrors to get you to fork it all over.
    Next they will control you socially and make you rat people out and then tell you that you are not to ever speak to them again, even if they're family members.
    It's really pure hell with nothing real or good about it at all!
    You'd be happier by shitting you pants everyday without ever changing your clothes.
    Plus you'd have more friends.
    Real friends.
     
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  18. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    This question pops up again and again here. It is never really answered.

    NO ONE has ever done any proper, valid research, so what such people are really asking for is unfounded and biased opinion. That's not worth much.
     
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  19. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I like to look at it like someone who fought a real shooting war in the military. Was it in the name of a good cause? Maybe. Did they learn things that were useful in life? Probably. Would they do it again if they didn't have to? Doubtful.
     
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  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    YES!!!

    There most certainly is good to Hubbard's work.

    Auditing and auditor training are superb, at least in the lower levels up to Grade IV/CLIV. A man or woman of good will who becomes an auditor can work wonders diminishing chaos in the hearts and minds of those around them and in their environment. Hubbard's second book, "Science of Survival" is nothing less, IMHO, than the finest basic handbook of human psychology ever written. It does have a couple real stinkers for flaws. The passage where he speaks of lepers and a Venezuela dictator made red flags wave in my skull. He also insists people who are "low on the tone scale" should be deprived of all civil rights. In America, civil rights are conferred upon the citizen at birth and suspended only by due process of law for actual crimes. Furthermore to deny a person rights is a fine way to drive a person down the tone scale and to hold them there.

    I worked on staff for most of two years until the horsecrap was finally more than I was willing to tolerate and SOME, not ALL of the complaints against Scn are quite valid but Hubbard's work contains much that our world and the future needs to study and employ
     
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