My thoughts on the cult - please feel free to comment

[Vinaire]

Well Pithy, I've never been a member of a cult - Scientology, or any other. I'm having a bit of trouble working out what you want though... We agree that the Cof$ is a corrupt and evil organization. Where can we go from there? If you want to talk, I'll talk.

My question to pithy is:

What constructive thing you are doing about this situation?

So far you have just been vampirish.

 

[Human Again]

Hi there Human again …
Let me address the points and snide accusations I take exception to in your reply to my thread.

I wasn't being snide, Pithy, I was being open and sincere. Thiose on the baord who know me in person , know this is how I am . Quite intense, serious and very openly sincere. It seems you have read me wrong and thinki am taking the piss out of you. I am not.

I answered the questions, gave you my personal experience and thoughts, which is what you asked for. Now I assumed that you could take as much s*&t as you gave and would welcome it - wrong assumption on my part. I am unsure why you are taking exception - although I will agree that calling you naive and incompassionate was rude. I wont do that again.



RE: religion vs tax fraud -

You didn’t think that was less than honest?

Of course I do - now. But as a kid I thought it was cool - bucking the system, doing things the smart way etc. Further consequences of misrepresentation etc never entered my mind while I was "in." Pithy, you asked me how it was for me then, I opened up and told you. Now your mad at me for how I felt back then?

“language - You confuse "doesn't exist" with common usage. If you understood etymology you wouldn't make this mistake.” - Condescending tone aside,

I will admit a condecending tone, but really, all words are "made up". There are no "natural" words and they are as valid as they are agreed upon by others. I think we will have to agree to disagree here because as cooky or as controlling as they are they're not invalid in my opninion.

I can't help but be picky, you use "fark", now I know you mean fuck but hey you've just invented another word man - hypofarkingcrit. No, no I take it back I didn't want to be rude to you, so I take it back - but that one seems so funny to me.

Most the people who use these words both in Scientology today and on this message board wouldn’t know how to communicate or express themselves if these words were removed.

? I can only assume your anger is speaking for you here. The people on this board live lives in the real world and make themselves understood. Some of us are well paid writers for goodness sake. So clearly this is emotional and not factual. And, it comes accross as mean and childish.

“You show further lack of compassion in not understanding WHY people find comfort in familiar terms actually being understood. Have you never noticed how foreigners LOVE to go to their home country and come back romaticising hearing their own language spoken?” I think the last 4 words of your question make my point and I am by nature compassionate.

Well, I am glad you're compassionate, I'd like to see more of it from you and perhaps it means you can believe that I am not here to attack you and will answer me in the same manner. I don't quite get what you are saying about the last 4 words though. As far as I am aware no one here denies that Scientology has it's own nomenclature.

We do not claim that the language is anything but specific to this world.

Somewhere else you mention it is controlling - I could not agree with you more. It's my perception that language is definately a way to put in control on someone, and that Scn is full of controlling language. You have only to look at that amazing thread of derogatory words to see evidence of it. And once someone has a concept all tied up in a word or phrase and connected to all sorts of pre-made judgements they effectively stop thinking o that topic - especially in Scientology where being "open-minded" is connected to being indecisive, weak, gullible etc.

But this is not a scn only phenomenon. First of all all the major religions do it, every government department does it, then acedemia does it - in some ways they are the worst. Do you know for example, in writing a doctoral thesis you cannot state a new idea without having references from other "authorative and credible" acedemics! My goodness, no wonder acedemic research crawls along at the rate of stonned snails!

Why make up new words? It's a good question - well when you see new things that have not been labelled before or see things in a new way, one needs to come up with new language to communicate it.

A finer distinction is needed in this topic too - When we use it on the board - (mostly, I have not read the whole board) the intention behind it is not to control or supress people. Unlike in the orgs where this is theunderlying intention as we can see now but which none of us could see while we were "in". So, in my view - which is different to yours and both are ok - the intention with which one communicates has a lot to do with how "good" or "Bad" words are.

“Reminiscing is a human pastime” – Agreed. I’m wondering if you ever reminisced about the person you labeled an SP, or the person you disconnected from, or the “KR” you wrote on someone for being “out ethics”*? *Not an actual term.

Yep. I "reminisced" about my dad who got labelled SP while I was in the SO. And my whole family , from whom I disconnected for a decade or so. Although in truth, I was kept so busy "clearing the planet" that I had little time to miss them, but yeah, I sure did. Not sure why you asked. I did not have any other connections who got declared.

KR - well you know I wrote KRs, but not about the stuff you would expect - I wrote KRs when I felt things were not being done right, usually when sanity seemed to being sidestepped or someone seemed to be hurting others. I can see how they can be misused and hurt people but I didn't do that. For me it was a bit like the 911 line - you call when there is something you can't fix on your ownand it needs to be known. I hope that answers your question.

RE: "out-ethics" not an actual term - ethics is in your dictionary Pithy and "out-ethics" was a really useful term in there. You weren't really "in" so I am not sure how to show you that it was useful. Also mis-used - yes, but a word is like a knife, it can be used for good or evil, depends on the person using it.

“You claim to have dismissed the standing in judgement of others years ago and yet here you are doing it right now” – No I didn’t claim anything of the sort –

OK, sorry to have misunderstood you, that's how it seemed. And I hope you can understand how angry it made me to think you were saying you weren't judgemental when you said the things you said.

what I claimed was that the organisation as a collective stood in judgement of those who weren’t within it or had been cast out of it. I also claimed that I found that collective mindset which is evident in most religions to be abhorrent. I stand in judgement of people all the time … However I don’t write reports on them or rummage through their waste bins or try to destroy them or label them an “enemy” if they happen to disagree with me.

I have never rumaged through someone's bin, or labelled them an enemy for disagreeing with me. I have NEVER tried to destry anyone. I wrote reports. yes. But I'm not sure if that is because of my training in the orgs or because I am an idealist who, given a system that said "we can make it more ideal if you let me know about it" wrote about it. I am one of those that always fills in suggestion box forms, when I found my neighbour was beating his wife I reported it and made sure something was done. I suspect it's my nature that was just supported by that particular Scn system, but who knows, maybe it is all from my training? I don't see it as bad. Perhaps another one we'll just have to hold different viewpoints on.

“You're in a paradigm right now” - Thanks for the heads up there. There is no point in discussing the paradigm thing with you further as it really isn’t relevant or comparable to the cult and your involvement in it.

HEY! I was not being smarmy when I said this. Don't take it that way. And the paradigm thing is THE WHOLE Farking point (see, your word is now agreed upon!) What the hell do you think a cult is if not a paradigm??????? Please excuse my raised voice and passion here but I am flabbergasted that you would say this. How on earth do you know what is relevent to my involvement with scn or not? Come on, every example I gave you is directly relevent. Is there "no point" discussing it or are you too lazy? Am I getting rude again? I don't mean to be. It's just that it seems to me this is the whole point. You seem to blame me and us for how we saw things when we were in a particular paradigm, and now that we are out you seem to be angry as to how we look back and see it because it is different to how you see it when you were never as "in it" as we were. And you started it all by asking how come we never saw it?

From the Webster dictionary: Paradigm - a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated. In social science, the term is used to describe the set of experiences, beliefs and values that affect the way an individual perceives reality and responds to that perception.

“but it gives you NO RIGHT to think you understand what it is like to have been in it fully and then found a way out. You are kidding yourself about your imperical viewpoint here.” – I admit I have no idea what it’s like to have been in it fully and then to get out … no idea at all. I don’t see how that is relevant to my questions though? I have never been a member of a white supremacist group however I did punch one in a pub once. This however is once again completely irrelevant and in no way precludes me from having an opinion on those groups and the people within them.

Okay, can we agree that while you see it as irrelevent - ie having no connection or affect on the topic - we see it as relevent - very connected and having a effect on the topic. From my viewpoint it is relevant because you seem to judge us for "not getting out quickly like you", for not seeing the group as it is seen from the outside while we were inside. You seem to be condeming us for holding views or thinking thoughts or saying things about a topic which you do not understand in the way we do. You have your own completely valid understanding but even you must see that it is not as thorough an understanding as we have?

RE: The punching thing? You know funny you should say this, but when you responded to my sincere post where I did answer your questions and contributed to the discussion, I felt as if I had been virtually punched in the nose. Did you punch the supremacist guy just for holding his views of for something he did?

“When will you realise the ways in which you are controlled now? By your current group? Do you really follow every dream and fullfil every potential you have? What thoughts/group agreements keep you from doing that?” – Almost sounds like a question out of a scientology pamphlet. I’m a member of no groups.

You have to be hermit for that to be true. And the questions? You can find them in every personal development writing from Napoleon Hill to Anthony Robbins to Esther Hicks - not Scientology - just the field of personal development.

My thoughts are my own … of course they are influenced by people and situations and change but they have never been nor ever will be subject to approval of an organisation. – In the interest of full disclosure I hate the Wallabies rugby team along with the rest of my mother nations rugby fraternity.

Your thoughts are shared by others, especially the thoughts about the Wallabies team. Good for you on being out from under an organisations mind control. You seem to look down on people who are not quite as free. If that is the case I suggest you exercise that compassion of yours - almost everyone here on the board has managed to free themselves from the chains of "approval of an organisation" whihc, let me clarify for you who have never had that particular challenge - is no mean feat. And, yes to defend myself again, for those of us who were born into it - I doubt anyone who was not can fully understand how hard it is, how complex and how painful.

“Ever have a bad thing happen in your life? Can you honestly say you got NOTHING from the experience?” - Yes and no I can’t say that.
“Ever had a relationship go wrong? But you had honestly been in love with that person? It wasn't all bad- ever.” – yes I have and no it wasn’t all bad.

Cool, same with us, our relationship with the blood sucking church of scientology wasn't all bad, at one point , each of us loved scn and the orgs, now we realise how crap it is. And each one in a differnt way.

“And to blanket the people on this board as standing by a technology?” – I didn’t - re read my quote.
“Well, you know what, most of us don't and those that do - how about dropping that judgementality you were bagging a few lines ago? How do you know that they didn't get value from it? Maybe it was worth the pain for them? … but who's to say someone else who had problems with that all their life and perhaps reading some stuff, or doing level 0 or something changed that for them for the better?” – Because in doing so they more likely than not (but not definitely) played an active part in an evil movement and organisation. That’s farken why.

I'm feeling mad at you again, reading this paragraph. You did some rudimentary courses, you played an active part to, smaller than most of us, sure but you still played it. You scored a goal or two for the church. And, although it's different form how you see it, I still reckon each person has to judge for themselves if the "cost" was worth their gains. For me, no, it wasn't. If I could undo it, I would go back and unsign that contract and get back my years. I am sorry for every contribution I have them that allowed the evil to go on.

“Your view or no value in the view - that's what I am hearing from your post.” – Get that hearing tested. I love other views, I love debate, I love discussion – I believe that these things are essential. That is not to say I can’t be outraged by hypocrisy and question it.

Then you'll take all my words on face value and recognise that I did not blow you off? I spent time and consideration answering every one of your questions and perhaps manage to not be outraged - although your views have caused me a bit of "outrage" too.

“Do you gain anything by eating meat? Well, do you have ANY IDEA the cruelty, pain, suffering and degredation the livestock goes through to ensure you get your steak?
Do you enjoy your Nike shoes? Ever had a bit of coke or drugs that orriginated in a third world country? Do you know what working conditions were suffered by those who made your nike's or your bit of chemical joy? Any idea how many people went to jail or died to get it to you?” – Valid points all of them however once again not relevant or comparable to a discussion or a stance I have taken against the evil organisation.

I'm going to take you at your word that you welcome discussion. These are relevant in the answering of your orginal question of: How can you still stand by and say I gained something from an organisation which is by design evil?
No one is saying YOU gained anything but they might have. Just like people gained by eating meat or wearing nikes or taking drugs. That is how it is relevant. The fact that there was evil intended or evil ocouring is not directly connected to what people got out of it.

Now, personally I am working on sorting the issue of "can there be anything good come from a narccistic meglomaniac with evil intentions?" But your way of asking - it's so make-wrong that I expect you only look at the issue in a shallow way.” – Good luck with working through that issue. I have nothing to say about your assumptions about my view.

Are you being sincere here? I can't tell if you are or if you're just shutting me off.

“After all I had been an SO member since I was 16 and an exec since I was 17.” Why tell us that … Do you still wear that as a badge of honour?

No - I say it so you understand how indoctrinated I was - how early that prgramming was installed and how water tight the "logic" appeared to be. Jeez, I bare my heart and you think I am wearing a badge of honor?

“You're about as naive and judgemental as they come, Pithy. To have dipped a toe in and think you know all about the ocean most of us swam in.” You poor battle scarred, life hardened thing … give me a farken break.

I am not feeling self pity. I was being poetic. Clearly I failed.

You were a part of a cult – a small minded, evil, controlling cult which brain washed you, which indoctrinated you and which probably made you some of the person you are today …

My point exactly, except I don't hate me for it like you seem to.

And you asked for an insight into how it was... You basically asked "How the (bleep) did you put up with it?" but you seemed unable to hear the answers... you think I am justifying when I am explaining to answer your question you dolt. (dolt is a semi-affectionate term, not meant to insult just point out a point that seems obvious to me0

spare me the “your naïve” bullshite – and as for the “If this post sounds angry, well, I suspect you don't mind raising a bit of anger in those you communicate with. What's that about, Pithy?” What the fark is that question about ‘humanagain’? Were you trying to get a feel for where I am on the tone scale?

Nah - I haven't used that shit for a decade at least. I guess I just felt so attacked I wondered why you had provoked it.

n And no I have no problem what so ever with raising the ire of ex cultists who try to justify their time in there or make excuses for why it went pear shaped but more to the point why do you? This organisation is tantamount to fanatical islam and nazidom as far as control of people and suppression or thought, speech and expression goes and it always has been. It was never good before hand.

You're right.

The possible derived wins aren’t worth the distruction this organisation causes. Not a thousand times. I don’t care if someone got some “gains” doing a course or learnt how to handle the bitch in the office a little better …

OOh, this one is up to each individual to choose for themselves. I don't reckon you can say what's worth it for someone else. Again, a difference of views and I will not try to change yours, although I'd like to. This is what I saw as incompassionate. You can't handle someone else feeling what they got was worth it.


I

Re: Questions about my intentions - Simply to have some questions answered and to promote thought and debate - that's a quite a popular thing for normal free thinking people.

But when you got answers and debate...

In conclusion my intention was to have some questions answered ... they haven't been.

? You obviously hated my answers but there were LOTS of them. What did you want to hear?

My intention was also to prompt discussion and debate instead of a whole bunch of back slapping and reminicing about the good old days and talk about how horrible they all are but without actually actively doing anything which happens on this site. Everyone of you should become members of anonomous or in some way get active and expose these farkers for the nasty, destructive, oppresive barstards they are.

Thanks for your opinion of what you think we should do. Are you going to join in? Actually some of us are very active.

Anyhow, I hope you have managed to hear what I've said and we can drop the extreme anger and outrage?

 

[Pithy]

Pithy you sound like David Miscavige in tone and behavior.

.

That's a comment from somone exhibiting all the things that make me sick about scientologists.

 

[Pithy]

Well Pithy, I've never been a member of a cult - Scientology, or any other. I'm having a bit of trouble working out what you want though... We agree that the Cof$ is a corrupt and evil organization. Where can we go from there? If you want to talk, I'll talk.

Cool - lets talk.

 

[Pithy]

'Human again' ... how do I quote excerts from your reply like you did to mine?

 

[Carnaubawax]

Cool - lets talk.

As I said I've never been into Scn. I got involved with the subject via Anonymous during the spring, and have taken certain steps to oppose the cult in ways that I have available to me. That's mostly spreading information about the cults crimes via internet. There is no Scn presence near me - I live a long long long way from the nearest Scn operation. (I live a long way from any fucking thing.) I got involved because I've been a human rights activist for a long time, and hearing about what Scn does to people made me very angry. I'm in it for the long haul. Want to see the cult dismantled. I see the 'Freezone' as 'Scientology lite' and just as potty as the CofS, but concede that they do not perpetrate any human rights abuses, as far as I can see. They just peddle the garbage to dazed ex churchies and a few - very few newbies. What I've read of the wonderful "Hubbard Tech" seems to be a mixture of stuff he half understood and ripped off from other sources, and his own drug fuelled ravings. I don't like this cult being on my planet haha, so I'm trying to do something about it. That's a bit about me, anyway.

 

[Pithy]

As I said I've never been into Scn. I got involved with the subject via Anonymous during the spring, and have taken certain steps to oppose the cult in ways that I have available to me. That's mostly spreading information about the cults crimes via internet. There is no Scn presence near me - I live a long long long way from the nearest Scn operation. (I live a long way from any fucking thing.) I got involved because I've been a human rights activist for a long time, and hearing about what Scn does to people made me very angry. I'm in it for the long haul. Want to see the cult dismantled. I see the 'Freezone' as 'Scientology lite' and just as potty as the CofS, but concede that they do not perpetrate any human rights abuses, as far as I can see. They just peddle the garbage to dazed ex churchies and a few - very few newbies. What I've read of the wonderful "Hubbard Tech" seems to be a mixture of stuff he half understood and ripped off from other sources, and his own drug fuelled ravings. I don't like this cult being on my planet haha, so I'm trying to do something about it. That's a bit about me, anyway.

You’re an inspiration. I have taken on the farkers head to head a couple of times in defence of ex scientologists who were being ripped off. What I noticed was in fact when confronted head on and removed from the safe confines of their orgs and their silly little infrastructure was that they are quite easy to fark with. I have had letters published in Newspapers telling story’s of what I knew of their activity’s and make it a habbit to shout abuse when ever I pass an org (not the most effective form of protest I know). I feel very passionately about this organisation being brought down.

 

[Human Again]

quoting

'Human again' ... how do I quote excerts from your reply like you did to mine?

It takes a few steps.

1. Press the quote button instead of reply.

2. When you have a bit you want to enclose in one of those blue boxes you put [/QUOTE] which closes the box.

3. To start a new box you copy the first quote thingy (technical jargon - not real) which is something like

I do that step with a cut and paste because it is easier.

Hope that helps.

p.s. to do multimple quotes, use multiple quotes button and then quote for final one.

 

[Vinaire]

That's a comment from somone exhibiting all the things that make me sick about scientologists.

David Miscavige feels sick about Scientologists too.

He probably feels sick about everybody. You seem to be that way too.

.

 

[Vinaire]

'Human again' ... how do I quote excerts from your reply like you did to mine?

You are probably a young college kid still wet behind the ears... quite immature... unable to get along with anybody... wanting sex but obnoxious with girls too.

That is my reading of Mr. Pithy.

.

 

[Vinaire]

You’re an inspiration. I have taken on the farkers head to head a couple of times in defence of ex scientologists who were being ripped off. What I noticed was in fact when confronted head on and removed from the safe confines of their orgs and their silly little infrastructure was that they are quite easy to fark with. I have had letters published in Newspapers telling story’s of what I knew of their activity’s and make it a habbit to shout abuse when ever I pass an org (not the most effective form of protest I know). I feel very passionately about this organisation being brought down.

Mr. Pithy sounds like just a talker and not a doer. I don't think he has participated in any of the rallies in front of the Scientology orgs. He seems to be quite stuck up with himself.

.

 

[Vinaire]

deleted.

 

[Carnaubawax]

deleted.

deleted.

 

[Vinaire]

People may see me as a "spiritual" person. They may find me as being out of character when I am being "obnoxious" as on this thread.

Yes, this could be shocking... but ultimately, freedom includes...

Freedom to be spiritual
Freedom to be obnoxious
Freedom to be anything...

There is nothing wrong or right about being so mercurial. What may be considered unwanted is getting stuck in any one identity.

How many of you have been stuck in the same identity?

.

 

[Vinaire]

When I see somebody being obnoxious I just want to try that identity out for a size. This can be fun.

When one wants to be obnoxious go all the way. Why hold oneself back? This would be my advice to Mr. Pithy.

Of course, he is under no obligation to pay any heed to it.

.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Re: Questions about my intentions - Simply to have some questions answered and to promote thought and debate - that's a quite a popular thing for normal free thinking people.

Re: Who ever it was who has put me on their "ignore" list ... are you officially disconnecting from me? - I guess some things never change.

Good twin: It obviously means something to you as you needed to reply.

Fluffy: Godwins law is not relevant here as there is a genuine comparison between both cults.

Re: My politics - I am a lefty with a normal coloured neck.

Re: Arrogance, superiority and black and white - yes, yes and yes I suffer from all 3 of these - an unfortunate aspect of the human condition.

In conclusion my intention was to have some questions answered ... they haven't been. My intention was also to prompt discussion and debate instead of a whole bunch of back slapping and reminicing about the good old days and talk about how horrible they all are but without actually actively doing anything which happens on this site. Everyone of you should become members of anonomous or in some way get active and expose these farkers for the nasty, destructive, oppresive barstards they are.

Nazism was not a cult. And, yes, it still was an example of Godwin's law.

In any event, it's pretty offensive to be damning ex Scn'ists with the Nazi tarbrush.

 

[scooter]

All this makes me wonder if Pithy indeed lives under a bridge during the day

 

[degraded being]

During the day and at knight.

 

[Pithy]

All this makes me wonder if Pithy indeed lives under a bridge during the day

Scooter ... your a twat. You were always a twat. You are the personification of the worst most atrociaous disgusting things about that organisation. You are and have always been a an intellectual light weight who tried his hardest to be a superior being but always fell short when he opened his mouth. Instead of posting on this board you should be doing something productive (something you always had trouble with) and telling people about how the organisation made you the twit you are.

 

[Pithy]

When I see somebody being obnoxious I just want to try that identity out for a size. This can be fun.

When one wants to be obnoxious go all the way. Why hold oneself back? This would be my advice to Mr. Pithy.

Of course, he is under no obligation to pay any heed to it.

.

Your a republican aren't ya Vinaire? I can tell.