OBE (Out of Body) Intensive - The Moroe Istitute - near Charlottesville, VA

[Veda]

You didn't answer the question.

True, I didn't. Out of curiosity, I allowed some time to pass to see what percolated up on this thread.

Of course, I don't call myself a "thetan."

It was a silly question.

Rarely do I use a Hubbardism, and if I do, it's humorously, or in quotes.

I graduated from Scientology a long time ago, which I think you knew.

 

[Demented LRH]

http://assets.monroeinstitute.org/journal_archives/journal2012-1.pdf
...
SAM induces altered states of consciousness that most likely would be evidenced through both alterations in one’s qualitative experience of reality (already noted in hundreds of experiences) and the objective measurement of changes in brainwave arousal due to the ERTAS mechanism’s regulation of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which appears to be influential in the quantum coherence of parallel arrayed neuronal microtubules (Woolf & Hameroff, 2001).

One aspect of brain functioning somewhat beyond arousal states, attentional focus, and levels of awareness involves the cross-callosal connectivity of the hemispheric structure of the brain and the effect that interaction has on consciousness. SAM can actually enhance the effectiveness of the brain by enabling the user to either synchronize the arousal level of both hemispheres or calm down an overactive left or right hemisphere. The two cerebral hemispheres are like two separate information-processing modules. Both are complex cognitive systems; both process information independently and in parallel, and their interaction is neither arbitrary nor continuous (Zaidel, 1985).

Because of this, states of consciousness can be defined not only in terms of brainwave arousal states, attentional focus, and levels of awareness, but also in terms of hemispheric specialization and/or interaction. Some desired states of consciousness may require facile inter-hemispheric integration, while others may call for a unique hemispheric processing style (Zaidel, 1986). An individual’s cognitive repertoire, and therefore his/her ability to perceive reality and deal with the everyday world, is subject to his/her ability to control these states of consciousness, including the mediation of inter-hemispheric processing.

Hemispheric dominance in particular has an ultradian periodicity (Rossi, 1986). Individuals can, however, learn to control hemispheric dominance through the disciplines of biofeedback, yogic breathing, and others (Budzynski, 1986). But SAM is the only method of precise control of hemispheric specialization and/or interaction and the associated brainwave arousal states, attentional focus, and levels of awareness. The result of such control is the maximizing of experiences in altered states of consciousness, or, put another way, the effective employment of appropriate states of consciousness to state-specific environments or situations.

SAM arcs can be generated to facilitate inter-hemispheric integration (synchrony) or to specifically suppress left/right hemispheric dominance. If a state of consciousness is desired that requires inter-hemispheric processing, then conventional symmetrical SAM arcs are used. A conventional SAM signal generates identical movement-arc stimuli in each hemisphere and will encourage the same arousal level in both hemispheres, establishing equivalent environments and maximizing inter-hemispheric neural communication.

If a state of consciousness is desired that requires quieting a dominant hemisphere, then unconventional, special SAM arcs are used. An unconventional SAM signal is one in which the SAM movement-arc in one hemisphere is out of phase and/or frequency with the SAM arc presented to the other hemisphere. This calming down of a dominant hemisphere is possible, fortunately, by virtue of the physiology of the brain. The acoustic nerve fibers of each ear are unequally divided between the hemispheres. From each ear more nerve fibers (more SAM arc stimulation) go to the opposing hemisphere than to the local hemisphere (Luria, 1970).

SAM uses multiple movement-arcs with different frequencies that may be virtually located in many different spatial regions using the arc location and size parameters as illustrated below. This enables stimuli to be focused singularly or on a variety of cortical regions simultaneously. An almost limitless number of subtly different tremolo effects operating at different rates can be created. This flexibility enables unprecedented accuracy in the induction of altered states of consciousness; a wider variety of accessible states; a more reliable and effective methodology; a faster response time for the listener; and deeper...

"If a state of consciousness is desired that requires quieting a dominant hemisphere, then unconventional, special SAM arcs are used. An unconventional SAM signal is one in which the SAM movement-arc in one hemisphere is out of phase and/or frequency with the SAM arc presented to the other hemisphere. This calming down of a dominant hemisphere is possible, fortunately, by virtue of the physiology of the brain. "

When someone makes a statement like this one, he needs to show experimental data confirming it. Without experimental data statements like this one are unproven hypotheses.

The same is true about the whole article -- it contains plenty of theoretical material without description of a single experiment supporting theoretical inferences.

When I accepted Dianetics, I was a humble paralegal with no scientific training. If I were given this article at that time, I would have accepted its unproven hypotheses on faith because it is written in seamingly scientific language with plenty of big science-like words.

I have MS in Financial Engineering now, and I do plenty of research of stock market data. My research involves the methods of mathematical statistics. I write scientific articles now, and I have a very good understanding of the requirements that an article must meet; one of those requirements is the presence of empirical data.

This article has no experimental data, and it looks like a piece of garbage to me.

 

[Demented LRH]

The whole idea of exteriorization is utterly ridiculous because it implies that the soul (spirit) is located inside the body. Where exactly the soul is located? Is it in the brain, or in the bladder, or in the balls? No one knows because there is no experimental data about its whereabouts.

Perhaps, the soul is located outside the body. But then the exteriorization is permanent, and we are wasting our time discussing departure of the spirit from the body.

 

[Claire Swazey]

It's prolly the viewpoint that shifts. Perhaps the OBE thing, like perhaps Scn, addresses the illusory and seemingly real delusion.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The whole idea of exteriorization is utterly ridiculous because it implies that the soul (spirit) is located inside the body. Where exactly the soul is located? Is it in the brain, or in the bladder, or in the balls? No one knows because there is no experimental data about its whereabouts.

Perhaps, the soul is located outside the body. But then the exteriorization is permanent, and we are wasting our time discussing departure of the spirit from the body.

You are both right and wrong.

The commonly believed yet silliest aspect is the popular belief that a metaphysical conception (spirit) which is characterized as transcending the limitations of the physical universe nonetheless occupies and is bound by the limits of space & time. The more likely scenario is that that which is called spirit is better thought to lie "outside" of the limits of space & time.

With this latter model that which is called "interiorization" represents spirit's own considerations which have caused self-imposed limits on its own conception of self. The being is "interiorized" to the degree he sees himself as somehow limited as a spiritual being.

Similarly, "exteriorization" occurs when some of the spirit's own considerations which have resulted in him creating gradient self-imposed limits on his sense of self are somehow altered and those particular limits relax, reduce, or vanish.

In accordance with this model "exteriorization/interiorization" are not absolute states but gradient states. The individual's perception of greater freedom and space alters in accordance with his own changes in considerations about his space & his limitations.

Auditing & other techniques can affect "exteriorization/interiorization" by facilitating an individual's examination of his self-imposed limitations and the mental considerations which may underlie them. In general "good auditing" unravels limiting considerations of self and moves in the direction of "exteriorization". Alternately, "bad auditing" (aka "black dianetics/scientology") causes the individual to form considerations of self which reduce his sense of self, effectiveness, and personal space.

This certain better reflects my own experience of the phenomena.

Nonetheless as "physical reality" is that with which the human mind is most familiar at present, spiritual phenomena are usually described with the (incorrectly applied) use of physical concepts. This is common across cultures, not christian ideas of heaven/hell as places where corporeal pleasures/punishment are enjoyed by the denizens. The unfortunate result is the creation of a false impression of spirit actually possessing a physical location in spacetime, and much that seems to follow "logically" from that base.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Demented LRH]

I'm still waiting for results of an experiment proving that the exteriorization exists.

I have already described such experiment in this thread. Is anyone willing to carry it out to prove once and for all that the exteriorization is a real deal?

As a positivist, I accept only empirical data, not theological or theosophical talk that we, the positivists, call "metaphysical garbage".

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I'm still waiting for results of an experiment proving that the exteriorization exists.

I have already described such experiment in this thread. Is anyone willing to carry it out to prove once and for all that the exteriorization is a real deal?

As a positivist, I accept only empirical data, not theological or theosophical talk that we, the positivists, call "metaphysical garbage".

And that applies to only one conception of what exteriorization constitutes, and not what it may actually be.

Experiences are limited by a person's thoughts. Reality exceeds expectations.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Smilla]

I only go by my own direct experience in the area of my consciousness, and how I interface with the physical universe and other beings.

Other people have come up with models that are of use to them and that's fine, but I've gone my own way, and it's a beautiful journey.

Direct experience trumps theory.

 

[Wants2Talk]

I'm still waiting for results of an experiment proving that the exteriorization exists.

I have already described such experiment in this thread. Is anyone willing to carry it out to prove once and for all that the exteriorization is a real deal?

As a positivist, I accept only empirical data, not theological or theosophical talk that we, the positivists, call "metaphysical garbage".

Would you take the "trip" if we can raise the 2500?

 

[Gottabrain]

It's prolly the viewpoint that shifts. Perhaps the OBE thing, like perhaps Scn, addresses the illusory and seemingly real delusion.

I think so, too.

When my car got hit by a Mac truck, I visually experienced a continuation of moving forward, as if the car was still going 80 mph. I had hit my head on the steering wheel and apparently momentarily blacked out. The sensation of being ahead of my body and having to return to where I was, was quite disorienting.

Did it really happen? Was I really ext? Now I would say, probably not.

But after some of the other posts here, I read some other info online and found that our minds are capable of producing such a visual illusion and that others who have experienced such a thing did not have what they had visualized turn out to be accurate in reality by actual observation.

It's quite a visual illusion, but I think that's the likely truth. There are many things we think we see and interpret as being there that turn out to be different than what we supposed them to be. Perhaps motion itself and the constant moving of the eyes in driving (so many ext stories are about driving) and then having that suddenly - unexpectantly - interrupted produces this phenomenon.

 

[Smilla]

Sometimes we think we imagined something that was real, and sometimes we imagine something that we think is real. Memory is 100% unreliable - it's a mental simulation of events that we believe took place. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I still have detailed and vivid memories of my 'imaginary playmate' when I was four. I can remember places we went, and things we did. My mother only told me about five years ago when we were chatting one day, that my 'imaginary playmate' never existed. I have memories of him, and she doesn't.

Some people hate it when I say this, but reality is an opinion.

YMMV.

 

[Gottabrain]

Smilla, I get what you're saying, but we're not quite talking about the same thing here.

My experience was a true, 3 dimensional visual hallucination, where what I had previously ACTUALLY been seeing just continued for a few moments.

That's actually not unusual or even abnormal. It's just what the mind does - it fills in the gaps and interprets things and sometimes that affects one visually in the form of a sort of hallucination, where either the previous perceptions continue on, motion is perceived where there is none, or something is seen as complete or incomplete when it is not.

Here are a few common ones that we all experience:

This picture is NOT actually moving.

Lines are the exact same length.

ha ha - love this one... :grin:

 

[Smilla]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, and you're quite right. This is an area I'm very interested in - what the mind/brain can do. It can do a lot.

Here's something. The work that I do can be exhausting beyond belief. I'm talking completely spent. On two occasions when I've been totally exhausted, something very strange happened.

The first time I was sat on my bed, and my senses crashed. Froze. I look to my left and up and down. Nothing changed. Perspective didn't work - I'd look to the side and still see the front. It was exactly like a DVD on 'pause'. I lift my hand up to look at it, and couldn't see the hand come up.

The second time - same circumstances, my senses crashed, and I saw a grid something like this:

In both cases I woke up feeling fine after about 14 hours sleep.

Hallucination?

Maybe.

I think it was real, but utterly utterly strange. The machine doing something very peculiar, for reasons unknown.

Like your experience, which was being generated somehow, for some reason that we don't fully understand. Your point about the mind filling in the gaps makes sense.

Here's a quote from John Lilly that I don't fully agree with, but find very interesting. It scares me a little.

"The most important things to do in science is to figure out who the human is and how he operates biochemically. We're never going to understand how the brain works. I always say that my brain is a big palace, and I'm just a little rodent running around inside it. The brain owns me, I don't Own the brain. A large computer can simulate totally a smaller computer but it cannot simulate itself, because if it did there wouldn't be anything left except the simulation. Consciousness would stop there."

 

[Gottabrain]

Wow, Smilla.

Yes, you sound like you had a full visual hallucination, but then, maybe it wasn't exactly a hallucination? Maybe the brain, rather than reversing images seen, rather than aiming forward with the eyes as it should, sort of glitched and turned inward?

Like - do you ever get those ghosts (like maybe a scar on the inner eye, or bubbles) across your vision on a very bright, sunny day? That's certainly not external vision, unless it's dust or something. Nobody has ever come up with the explanation for those, but most people have had it happen.

I am also extremely interested in this phenomenon.

Sensory deprivation in prison camps results in all sorts of phenomenon. Really bad stuff, too, apparently.

 

[Dilpickle]

The second time - same circumstances, my senses crashed, and I saw a grid something like this:

Smilla - In the Don Juan/Castaneda books, Don Juan talks about "SEEING".. vs "LOOKING".. looking is seeing the world as solid.. "Seeing" is seeing the world as ENERGY.. he describes lines of light, similar to your photo, that have "awareness".. they are conscious lines.. did yours seem to have that sense about them?

 

[Smilla]

Wow, Smilla.

Yes, you sound like you had a full visual hallucination, but then, maybe it wasn't exactly a hallucination? Maybe the brain, rather than reversing images seen, rather than aiming forward with the eyes as it should, sort of glitched and turned inward?

Like - do you ever get those ghosts (like maybe a scar on the inner eye, or bubbles) across your vision on a very bright, sunny day? That's certainly not external vision, unless it's dust or something. Nobody has ever come up with the explanation for those, but most people have had it happen.

I think that at least some of that is due to Cosmic Rays striking the retina. It's more pronounced if you're flying at high altitude, and it can be quite spectacular for astronauts. There might be something else to it, but I don't know what.

I am also extremely interested in this phenomenon.

Sensory deprivation in prison camps results in all sorts of phenomenon. Really bad stuff, too, apparently.

Well I've done hundreds of hours floating in sensory deprivation/float tanks and find it very rewarding, but it's not for everyone. A friend of mine tried it and felt very claustrophobic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu6TjXdkdjc&feature=related

I find just being in the ocean for a long time does amazing things for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpKVXTMGWEc

 

[Smilla]

Smilla - In the Don Juan/Castaneda books, Don Juan talks about "SEEING".. vs "LOOKING".. looking is seeing the world as solid.. "Seeing" is seeing the world as ENERGY.. he describes lines of light, similar to your photo, that have "awareness".. they are conscious lines.. did yours seem to have that sense about them?

It's hard to say about that particular experience, but I am familiar with a *seemingly* living grid or lattice-like continuum, because I've come across it in float tank sessions. A bit like this, but obviously my body is lying down in the tank.

 

[Dilpickle]

It's hard to say about that particular experience, but I am familiar with a *seemingly* living grid or lattice-like continuum, because I've come across it in float tank sessions. A bit like this, but obviously my body is lying down in the tank.

YES..that looks very much like what Don Juan would be describing as seeing the World as Energy ) Nice. Even the EGG shape around the body, as he mentions!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

It's hard to say about that particular experience, but I am familiar with a *seemingly* living grid or lattice-like continuum, because I've come across it in float tank sessions. A bit like this, but obviously my body is lying down in the tank.

Welcome to the Matrix.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Dilpickle]

I've had quite a number of Out of Body Experiences.. I don't call them hallucinations at all.. they are Real to me. HOWEVER.. I also do not feel I am in CONTROL of what I do or where I go yet.. It's a slippery slope for sure, until you have experience it enough and get some control.

For instance, once, years ago, I was lying in bed working on exteriorizing with some methods I'd thought up. We lived in a small one story one bedroom house at the time. I was lying on my back, relaxing, and putting my attention on my entire body at one time.. just "feeling" it, the energy, etc.. Then I imagined I was about 5 feet above my head, towards the ceiling, and from that viewpoint, I looked down at my legs, and imagined they were lifting up off the bed.. I started to feel like some "legs" were actually lifting, but not my real legs..

At one point, it felt like something sucked up my whole body up into the air, and deposited it on the floor.. like a big WHOOOSH.. I just stood there for a minute, kind of shocked, and then thought.. Hey.. I'll go out into the living room. When I got to the bedroom door, I could actually grasp the doorknob, and walked into what I immediately thought was my ACTUAL APARTMENT on the 10th floor.. Somehow I think I had gotten into another dimension, where I actually DID live on the 10th floor of an apt, and my little dog Nathan was there (although in real life, he had died years earlier) and to me it was all just NORMAL.. I had totally forgotten that I really lived in a small one story house with no Nathan.. my mind tricked me into believing that I was a different "me".. if that makes any sense..

Anyway.. even though I thought I was this "other dimension" me.. I DID remember that I was exterior, and decided to have some fun with it. I told Nathan.. watch this.. I'm going to jump down into the park below. I walked out onto the balcony, and with no hesitation, I jumped off and kind of floated down to the grass below.. somehow, Nathan ended up down there with me.. I told him I was going to try to fly.. but all I managed to do was kind of jump up about 10 or 15 feet into the air and land softly a few times, and I thought that was pretty fun. Then my partner/friend turned over in his sleep, and bonked me with his elbow, and I returned to the one story house immediately and realized what I had done..

I'm thinking, one reason why it might be so difficult to do experiments, like leave your body and tell someone what is behind the screen, or in the next room, is you might be exteriorizing into a different Reality, so that what is behind THAT screen is a different thing. Until you really get comfortable with all this, and can be cognizant of where you are in what dimension, it is extremely tricky. I don't know if we will ever know it all.. but I am having alot of fun working on it.

Last night I experimented with just telling myself I was getting better and better at this stuff, and more successful, and just closed my eyes and imagined I could SEE the fireplace and the mantle and the brass vases on it.. Nothing happened for a while, and then I could see sort of a black and white blurry version of it, and then all of a sudden it all lit up in HUGE PERFECT DETAIL AND COLOR.. so much so that it was a SHOCK and I immediately jumped back in my body, or whatever I did

I most definitely think exteriorization is possible.. Like the time a couple of cars bumped into each other and one of them zigzagged towards me and my dogs on the sidewalk taking a walk.. I saw it coming towards us, and all of a sudden the whole world slowed down.. I could see the two men in the front seat looking at us with wide eyes, hollering at us to MOVE, and I felt like I had 100 years to decide what to do... they were coming at us in Slow Motion.. I yelled at the dogs, RUN!! And we took off out of the way..

That kind of strange TIME seems also aligned with spirituality.. some other kind of knowledge or presence.. I don't have any other explanation for it. Don Juan calls the exterior being, The Other. I do believe The Other Exists and the fun is getting it to know you and getting you to know it, getting both sides entirely familiar with each other.. so you can be in either place at will.. Don Juan calls that The Totality of the Self... although, I still wonder if beyond that is the Static.. that is something I have NOT experienced knowingly.. Dilpickle