Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Scientology Fair Game is one of its most pernicious practices.
Moral equivalence is a term used mostly in political debate, usually to deny that a moral comparison can be made about the actions of two groups in conflict against each other.
If the United States invades a country, for instance, in order to free them from despotic rule, that’s not morally equivalent to the USSR invading them, and enslaving them in totalitarian communism. That’s one classic use of the term ‘moral equivalence’ from the Cold War. (I’ll not comment any further)
So you’ll usually hear people make the argument that something done by one group is not morally equivalent to the same thing done by their enemy.
Yet the concept is much more useful when you perceive that one particular act committed by one side of a conflict is just as morally reprehensible if committed by the other.
FAIR GAME is a great example of moral equivalence.
Fair game is a policy set down by L Ron Hubbard where critics and other “enemies’ of the Church of Scientology were to be treated as ‘fair game’, where anything could be done to destroy them with no punishment to the Scientologist.
If you think about it, FAIR GAME would be just as morally reprehensible if done TO the Church of Scientology as it would be if it was done BY the Church of Scientology.
And so when Anti-Scientologists engage in Fair Game, that would be morally equivalent to when the Church of Scientology engages in Fair Game.
Right?
I’ve recently had a very civil and productive discussion with an avowed anti-Scientologist who is intelligent and articulate, and who seems to have every valid reason to be an anti-Scientologist.
She made the argument to me that BECAUSE Scientology was so morally reprehensible, then immoral acts such as fair game committed against Scientology and Scientologists are morally acceptable.
It was a very interesting discussion, to me at least. I think it’s the kind which needs to be had. So I’m going to publish it here for you to see.
I don’t believe, by the way, that I “won” the argument. I believe that, in our dialogue, we articulated our positions clearly, allowing you to decide which is more sound.
And so I present them here for you.
___________________________________________
Susan Smith
Cathy Tweed didn’t need compassion, but her daughter did! How any mother can abandon a child like she abandoned Taylor is beyond my imagination. If this is what Scientology teaches an investigation of the religion or cult needs to be started immediately.
Alanzo
This is not what Scientology teaches.
But it is too often the result of being a Scientologist in the Church of Scientology.
Maybe that can change.
Your investigation can begin by signing this petition.
Thanks for your comment and welcome to Alanzosblog!
Lora
Actually what tologists are taught is how to systematically have compassion and love for others … and to withhold these attributes at the drop of a dime. Any hesitation is met with an array of BS designed to keep their members suppressed. The actions C. Tweed took are consistent with that of a robot. Who knows what she really felt. Hard to say. At this point, she is well aware that she represents a cult and chooses not to walk away. No excuse. She can’t unknow what she knows. Pretending it’s all good is pro quo for many of the long term members. They know. At some point the writing on the wall appears. Failure to respond due to ignorance or fear is no longer an acceptable response. It an excuse.
Alanzo
Well said.
How much longer should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?
Lora
I guess that’s up to her. I imagine its why she stays put. I don’t think of her being punished? Her kid killed herself. She neglectedd her which helped it along. Could happen to anyone regardless of whatever faithless religion they represent. However, if you get behind the wheel of car drunk and kill someone by accident, you do life. Cathy is probably punishing herself by staying in the Church much more than those on the outside are. AND, she doesn’t get to see the shows or hear about them anyway right? Not really relevant.
Alanzo
It is relevant.
Cathy Tweed is not responsible for any of the abuse in the Church of Scientology. She’s not a public figure. She’s not a whale who donates large sums of money to keep the Church afloat. She’s not a celebrity who’s out there trying to promote Scientology.
She’s just a mother who has lost her daughter to suicide, and who happens to be a Scientologist.
Just as you mention, plenty of mothers do everything in their power – the best they know how – for their daughters to help them through tough times. And sometimes those mothers lose their daughters to suicide. Can you think of anything more catastrophic than that for any mother?
Here’s something to think about: If you want to ensure that no scientologist ever comes out of the Church, keep rubbing the suicide of her daughter in Cathy Tweed’s face. Keep being this cruel. It’s a Christmas present for David Miscavige that just keeps on giving. He says, “See how barbaric and cruel these “wogs” are? You do not want anything to do with those people!”
You asked why Cathy Tweed is still in Scientology and hasn’t left yet.
Could this be a reason for that?
You know, despite what Leah and Mike want you to think, Scientologists are not pedophiles. They don’t deserve eternal punishment for their mistakes, do they?
Don’t you think Taylor’s suicide is enough punishment for Cathy Tweed?
So gotta ask again: How long should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?
Alanzo
Lora
What I don’t get is what side your on? There is much more tragedy happening in that church then the honor of Kathy Tweed. Maybe she has to take a hit for the team. Team shut the Fn Co$ down.
I don’t know how you can claim to be anti scientology and even more so and X member and not want to close that place down. Its mind boggling and from what I have surfed on your blog, I’m not alone in my amusement of your lukewarm perspective.
Mike Rinder was a complete scum bag. He destroyed hundreds of lives as a fair gamer and the ripple effect isn’t even chartable. Yet, he admits it, and exposes the church at the expense of himself. Kathy Tweed stays put living her flatliner lie. She should come on the Leah Remini show and expose her master at her expense. Put the blame on the right target. As should you.
And to answer the time tested question ” How long should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?”
Raising my kids in these schools, I saw plenty of shitty parenting done by OT7’s. Yes 3 off the top of my head. Covered for things like sexual perversion to simple orphaning a kid to be on course all the time.” Which this particular parents response was ” its okay, ill audit it out of her”. I happen to also suck as a parent. I paid 35K for my eldest son to do a Narcanon program in Nevada. He is a drugged out homeless person today. He literally lives in an encampment. If he chose to take his life ( not that I feel he even has one), I will be blamed forever by those who think I could have done more, loved more, given more…. I won’t be expecting people to understand or take pity on me. In fact the circles I run with, would blamed the engrained scn thinking for his lack of Medication or shrinks. Because I am totally upfront with my crappy mindset on these issues and I get called out frequently when I robotically attempt to inject into a moment with some Scn BS. Easier for me now that my mom has disconnected and hence it spilt over to all my kids childhood friends being forced to disconnect from them. Total devastation btw. And you want me to feel sorry for KATHY .. HA. She should feel sorry for me. My kids are alive and stuck living the mess of a crazy ass religion they were raised by. As I attempt to patch up their tender souls one day at a time.
Alanzo
Lora asked:
What I don’t get is what side your on? There is much more tragedy happening in that church then the honor of Kathy Tweed. Maybe she has to take a hit for the team. Team shut the Fn Co$ down.
I get asked this all the time, so I repeatedly answer this question, over and over.
Here’s my latest explanation:
Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?
The truth is on all sides of a conflict, not just one.
Lora
Read it and okay you feel that Leah and Mike should be criticized for embellishing on their quest to expose. And somehow, you feel this is unjust to the Co$ corp that they are trying to take down. Do you support anyone who is trying to get Co$ handled? I think their actions justify their means. To give a comparison: if your local priest had raped 15 alter boys all of which came forward to parents but weren’t allowed to tell police for fear of sbeing stocked and abused by the church and you knew this as you were friends of these families, would you A: Wait for the right kid to be molested in which the family was willing to take the church head on or B. Exaggerate or embellish to get the cops to look into it?
Alanzo
So the ends justify the means?
That’s exactly how Scientology thinks, just flipped for Anti-Scientology.
Real justice means the innocent don’t get harmed, just the guilty do. When Leah lied and told the Hollywood Reporter that all Scientologists believe in pedophilia, that lie smeared all kinds of innocent people. The fact is that almost all those pedophile cover-ups in Scientology were orchestrated by Mike Rinder as the head of the Office of Special Affairs.
I know of no one in Scientology – who weren’t Int Base Sea Org members or were being threatened by them – who would ever cover up pedophilia anywhere.
Mike Rinder wants us all to believe that all Scientologists were as crazy and fanatical as he was in Scientology.
Wrong. As the head of the Office of Special Affairs for 22 years, working directly for David Miscavige every day, there have been very few people as crazy and fanatical in Scientology as Mike Rinder.
All kinds of history is being revised here, and all kinds of reality is being pasted over.
So I’m speaking up.
If more people did that in Scientology, David Miscavige would be gone.
So the bottom line for me, Lora, is that if lying and smearing people is wrong then it is wrong for Scientologists AND for Anti-Scientologists.
I’ve been around too long, and seen too much, to be a one-sided fanatic any more.
People need the truth to get justice. And the truth exists on all sides of the conflict.
Lora
“When Leah lied and told the Hollywood Reporter that all Scientologists believe in pedophilia, that lie smeared all kinds of innocent people. The fact is that almost all those pedophile cover-ups in Scientology were orchestrated by Mike Rinder as the head of the Office of Special Affairs.”
So which is it, the acts never happened or Rinder was in charge of the cover ups?
And remember our friends that are still practing tologists are getting this side of the story. They are hearing whatever MicCabbage wants them to hear.
Honestly, i just feel like your still really locked up in your head on this. SCN bad. All of it. And the minions that stay are part of the casualty. I bet my mom would rather know that her lifes work has been a lie, and to rebuild relationship with her grankids and the world around her, then to be sure her fellow minion’s feelngs dont get hurt.
“So I’m speaking up.
If more people did that in Scientology, David Miscavige would be gone..”
Spoke up on what? We are thier eyes and voice. You and I. So while you want to make sure that no one gets hurt and you are a fair and impartial anti tologist, these folks are being robbed blind. The fact that Rinder is fanatical is exactly what should motivate you to help the sheep. The wolves are going to eat them. One fanatical wolf can eat many many sheep.
“So the bottom line for me, Lora, is that if lying and smearing people is wrong then it is wrong for Scientologists AND for Anti-Scientologists.”
I say that sometimes a lie can save way more lives then the truth. This isn’t a get into heaven with a gold star contest. Its about setting the people of SNC free and arresting the scum that keeps them locked up in thier heads. Its about restoring families. Its about awareness and stopping new pre clears from entering the bldg or taking what seems like harmless personality tests. ( which is also a lie). Its about making a house a home where parents raise thier own kids and not the CO$ Corp. So white lies and name smearing.. ehh whatever. Anyone who actually makes it out with thier mind in tack won’t cry about the lies, they will cry about the time lost.
If you have some better groups or individuals that you feel are better to support in this cause , Im all ears.
Alanzo
You definitely express the viewpoint I used to have as an anti-Scientologist very well. I thought exactly as you have expressed here for probably 13 or 14 years.
I’ve just learned that I can’t do that any more.
It’s kinda along these lines for me now:
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster… for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
___________________________________________
Who was right here?
Moral equivalence is a term used mostly in political debate, usually to deny that a moral comparison can be made about the actions of two groups in conflict against each other.
If the United States invades a country, for instance, in order to free them from despotic rule, that’s not morally equivalent to the USSR invading them, and enslaving them in totalitarian communism. That’s one classic use of the term ‘moral equivalence’ from the Cold War. (I’ll not comment any further)
So you’ll usually hear people make the argument that something done by one group is not morally equivalent to the same thing done by their enemy.
Yet the concept is much more useful when you perceive that one particular act committed by one side of a conflict is just as morally reprehensible if committed by the other.
FAIR GAME is a great example of moral equivalence.
Fair game is a policy set down by L Ron Hubbard where critics and other “enemies’ of the Church of Scientology were to be treated as ‘fair game’, where anything could be done to destroy them with no punishment to the Scientologist.
If you think about it, FAIR GAME would be just as morally reprehensible if done TO the Church of Scientology as it would be if it was done BY the Church of Scientology.
And so when Anti-Scientologists engage in Fair Game, that would be morally equivalent to when the Church of Scientology engages in Fair Game.
Right?
I’ve recently had a very civil and productive discussion with an avowed anti-Scientologist who is intelligent and articulate, and who seems to have every valid reason to be an anti-Scientologist.
She made the argument to me that BECAUSE Scientology was so morally reprehensible, then immoral acts such as fair game committed against Scientology and Scientologists are morally acceptable.
It was a very interesting discussion, to me at least. I think it’s the kind which needs to be had. So I’m going to publish it here for you to see.
I don’t believe, by the way, that I “won” the argument. I believe that, in our dialogue, we articulated our positions clearly, allowing you to decide which is more sound.
And so I present them here for you.
___________________________________________
Susan Smith
Cathy Tweed didn’t need compassion, but her daughter did! How any mother can abandon a child like she abandoned Taylor is beyond my imagination. If this is what Scientology teaches an investigation of the religion or cult needs to be started immediately.
Alanzo
This is not what Scientology teaches.
But it is too often the result of being a Scientologist in the Church of Scientology.
Maybe that can change.
Your investigation can begin by signing this petition.
Thanks for your comment and welcome to Alanzosblog!
Lora
Actually what tologists are taught is how to systematically have compassion and love for others … and to withhold these attributes at the drop of a dime. Any hesitation is met with an array of BS designed to keep their members suppressed. The actions C. Tweed took are consistent with that of a robot. Who knows what she really felt. Hard to say. At this point, she is well aware that she represents a cult and chooses not to walk away. No excuse. She can’t unknow what she knows. Pretending it’s all good is pro quo for many of the long term members. They know. At some point the writing on the wall appears. Failure to respond due to ignorance or fear is no longer an acceptable response. It an excuse.
Alanzo
Well said.
How much longer should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?
Lora
I guess that’s up to her. I imagine its why she stays put. I don’t think of her being punished? Her kid killed herself. She neglectedd her which helped it along. Could happen to anyone regardless of whatever faithless religion they represent. However, if you get behind the wheel of car drunk and kill someone by accident, you do life. Cathy is probably punishing herself by staying in the Church much more than those on the outside are. AND, she doesn’t get to see the shows or hear about them anyway right? Not really relevant.
Alanzo
It is relevant.
Cathy Tweed is not responsible for any of the abuse in the Church of Scientology. She’s not a public figure. She’s not a whale who donates large sums of money to keep the Church afloat. She’s not a celebrity who’s out there trying to promote Scientology.
She’s just a mother who has lost her daughter to suicide, and who happens to be a Scientologist.
Just as you mention, plenty of mothers do everything in their power – the best they know how – for their daughters to help them through tough times. And sometimes those mothers lose their daughters to suicide. Can you think of anything more catastrophic than that for any mother?
Here’s something to think about: If you want to ensure that no scientologist ever comes out of the Church, keep rubbing the suicide of her daughter in Cathy Tweed’s face. Keep being this cruel. It’s a Christmas present for David Miscavige that just keeps on giving. He says, “See how barbaric and cruel these “wogs” are? You do not want anything to do with those people!”
You asked why Cathy Tweed is still in Scientology and hasn’t left yet.
Could this be a reason for that?
You know, despite what Leah and Mike want you to think, Scientologists are not pedophiles. They don’t deserve eternal punishment for their mistakes, do they?
Don’t you think Taylor’s suicide is enough punishment for Cathy Tweed?
So gotta ask again: How long should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?
Alanzo
Lora
What I don’t get is what side your on? There is much more tragedy happening in that church then the honor of Kathy Tweed. Maybe she has to take a hit for the team. Team shut the Fn Co$ down.
I don’t know how you can claim to be anti scientology and even more so and X member and not want to close that place down. Its mind boggling and from what I have surfed on your blog, I’m not alone in my amusement of your lukewarm perspective.
Mike Rinder was a complete scum bag. He destroyed hundreds of lives as a fair gamer and the ripple effect isn’t even chartable. Yet, he admits it, and exposes the church at the expense of himself. Kathy Tweed stays put living her flatliner lie. She should come on the Leah Remini show and expose her master at her expense. Put the blame on the right target. As should you.
And to answer the time tested question ” How long should Cathy Tweed be punished for her daughter’s suicide?”
Raising my kids in these schools, I saw plenty of shitty parenting done by OT7’s. Yes 3 off the top of my head. Covered for things like sexual perversion to simple orphaning a kid to be on course all the time.” Which this particular parents response was ” its okay, ill audit it out of her”. I happen to also suck as a parent. I paid 35K for my eldest son to do a Narcanon program in Nevada. He is a drugged out homeless person today. He literally lives in an encampment. If he chose to take his life ( not that I feel he even has one), I will be blamed forever by those who think I could have done more, loved more, given more…. I won’t be expecting people to understand or take pity on me. In fact the circles I run with, would blamed the engrained scn thinking for his lack of Medication or shrinks. Because I am totally upfront with my crappy mindset on these issues and I get called out frequently when I robotically attempt to inject into a moment with some Scn BS. Easier for me now that my mom has disconnected and hence it spilt over to all my kids childhood friends being forced to disconnect from them. Total devastation btw. And you want me to feel sorry for KATHY .. HA. She should feel sorry for me. My kids are alive and stuck living the mess of a crazy ass religion they were raised by. As I attempt to patch up their tender souls one day at a time.
Alanzo
Lora asked:
What I don’t get is what side your on? There is much more tragedy happening in that church then the honor of Kathy Tweed. Maybe she has to take a hit for the team. Team shut the Fn Co$ down.
I get asked this all the time, so I repeatedly answer this question, over and over.
Here’s my latest explanation:
Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?
The truth is on all sides of a conflict, not just one.
Lora
Read it and okay you feel that Leah and Mike should be criticized for embellishing on their quest to expose. And somehow, you feel this is unjust to the Co$ corp that they are trying to take down. Do you support anyone who is trying to get Co$ handled? I think their actions justify their means. To give a comparison: if your local priest had raped 15 alter boys all of which came forward to parents but weren’t allowed to tell police for fear of sbeing stocked and abused by the church and you knew this as you were friends of these families, would you A: Wait for the right kid to be molested in which the family was willing to take the church head on or B. Exaggerate or embellish to get the cops to look into it?
Alanzo
So the ends justify the means?
That’s exactly how Scientology thinks, just flipped for Anti-Scientology.
Real justice means the innocent don’t get harmed, just the guilty do. When Leah lied and told the Hollywood Reporter that all Scientologists believe in pedophilia, that lie smeared all kinds of innocent people. The fact is that almost all those pedophile cover-ups in Scientology were orchestrated by Mike Rinder as the head of the Office of Special Affairs.
I know of no one in Scientology – who weren’t Int Base Sea Org members or were being threatened by them – who would ever cover up pedophilia anywhere.
Mike Rinder wants us all to believe that all Scientologists were as crazy and fanatical as he was in Scientology.
Wrong. As the head of the Office of Special Affairs for 22 years, working directly for David Miscavige every day, there have been very few people as crazy and fanatical in Scientology as Mike Rinder.
All kinds of history is being revised here, and all kinds of reality is being pasted over.
So I’m speaking up.
If more people did that in Scientology, David Miscavige would be gone.
So the bottom line for me, Lora, is that if lying and smearing people is wrong then it is wrong for Scientologists AND for Anti-Scientologists.
I’ve been around too long, and seen too much, to be a one-sided fanatic any more.
People need the truth to get justice. And the truth exists on all sides of the conflict.
Lora
“When Leah lied and told the Hollywood Reporter that all Scientologists believe in pedophilia, that lie smeared all kinds of innocent people. The fact is that almost all those pedophile cover-ups in Scientology were orchestrated by Mike Rinder as the head of the Office of Special Affairs.”
So which is it, the acts never happened or Rinder was in charge of the cover ups?
And remember our friends that are still practing tologists are getting this side of the story. They are hearing whatever MicCabbage wants them to hear.
Honestly, i just feel like your still really locked up in your head on this. SCN bad. All of it. And the minions that stay are part of the casualty. I bet my mom would rather know that her lifes work has been a lie, and to rebuild relationship with her grankids and the world around her, then to be sure her fellow minion’s feelngs dont get hurt.
“So I’m speaking up.
If more people did that in Scientology, David Miscavige would be gone..”
Spoke up on what? We are thier eyes and voice. You and I. So while you want to make sure that no one gets hurt and you are a fair and impartial anti tologist, these folks are being robbed blind. The fact that Rinder is fanatical is exactly what should motivate you to help the sheep. The wolves are going to eat them. One fanatical wolf can eat many many sheep.
“So the bottom line for me, Lora, is that if lying and smearing people is wrong then it is wrong for Scientologists AND for Anti-Scientologists.”
I say that sometimes a lie can save way more lives then the truth. This isn’t a get into heaven with a gold star contest. Its about setting the people of SNC free and arresting the scum that keeps them locked up in thier heads. Its about restoring families. Its about awareness and stopping new pre clears from entering the bldg or taking what seems like harmless personality tests. ( which is also a lie). Its about making a house a home where parents raise thier own kids and not the CO$ Corp. So white lies and name smearing.. ehh whatever. Anyone who actually makes it out with thier mind in tack won’t cry about the lies, they will cry about the time lost.
If you have some better groups or individuals that you feel are better to support in this cause , Im all ears.
Alanzo
You definitely express the viewpoint I used to have as an anti-Scientologist very well. I thought exactly as you have expressed here for probably 13 or 14 years.
I’ve just learned that I can’t do that any more.
It’s kinda along these lines for me now:
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster… for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
___________________________________________
Who was right here?
