MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
I agree!
The use of the word "haters" may well be:
1) a wrong indication or invalidation (black dianetics in action)
2) though stopping definition
3) no confront of others ideas or viewpoints
4) lack of "greatness"
Bill Frank's story about brainwashing (thread merge)
- Thread starter gwells
- Start date
I agree!
The use of the word "haters" may well be:
1) a wrong indication or invalidation (black dianetics in action)
2) though stopping definition
3) no confront of others ideas or viewpoints
4) lack of "greatness"
Veda
Sponsor
Hubbard knew what he was doing when he made Scientology into a cult. It wasn't an accident.
The cover of Hubbard's secretly authored 1955 'Brainwashing manual' kind of sums it up: http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg
'Brainwashing Manual Parallels': http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=414206&postcount=24
'The Scientological Onion': http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105?p=414206&postcount=24
The cover of Hubbard's secretly authored 1955 'Brainwashing manual' kind of sums it up: http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg
'Brainwashing Manual Parallels': http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=414206&postcount=24
'The Scientological Onion': http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105?p=414206&postcount=24
Feral
Rogue male
I agree!
The use of the word "haters" may well be:
1) a wrong indication or invalidation (black dianetics in action)
2) though stopping definition
3) no confront of others ideas or viewpoints
4) lack of "greatness"
Well said and let that be the end of the use of this abominable term by the indies!!!
Fellers, it's really, really LAME!
I already knew that LRH used the O/W tech (as well as several other mechanisms imbedded in his "tech") to control people.
I've known that for some long time now -- for the 30+ years since I routed off staff. The fact that LRH actually admitted that to someone doesn't make it any more "real" to me because it was already "real" to me.
What I still don't know is:
why would people ALLOW themselves to be controlled by someone (LRH or anyone else) in this way?
...when all along they had the choice to walk away.
Why they would put up with it, year after year, $ after $, separation after separation due to "disconnection" policies? why would grown adults follow "orders" regarding important life issues given them by preteen children and teenagers? why would they consign their children to the Sea Org (or just turn them out and abandon them to the street, as some have done) to serve LRH and scientology? why would they engage in all the other appalling behaviors we've seen documented over the last couple of decades in order to serve LRH and scientology?
The fact that "LRH controlled them by telling them they had O/Ws" is, for me, an inadequate explanation for why people allowed themselves to be controlled and behaved as they did.
But if hearing this tidbit (that LRH actually admitted his true intentions to someone whose name you know) helps you get free of the LRH mindfuck, then I'm all for it. Hip hip hooray.
Ulf K. Maier
Patron Meritorious
Tech-hater
Or "NAZI", "neo-Nazi", "anti-Semite". It's just another ad-hominem attack used when the user has no other resort in a discussion (lacking brain or will).
Usually, the "hater-haters" wind up on my Ignore list. Guess that makes me a TECH-HATER. And so I must be.
Bye, OSA... PLONK.
Or "NAZI", "neo-Nazi", "anti-Semite". It's just another ad-hominem attack used when the user has no other resort in a discussion (lacking brain or will).
Usually, the "hater-haters" wind up on my Ignore list. Guess that makes me a TECH-HATER. And so I must be.
Bye, OSA... PLONK.
Jachs
Gold Meritorious Patron
Why . the control factors.
Is there Choice? ..without Fear, guilt, greatest good, losing salvation.
all external routes are cut off, deceptively hidden, communications barred, KSW1. and your kept so busy to ever wonder
Thrak
Gold Meritorious Patron
Because he was selling the way out of the vulnerabilities and weaknesses of being human and people wanted it to be true. It's such a compelling thing that people will put up with a lot just for the chance that it might be true and as well there were plenty of people saying that it was true.
P.S. This sort of topic is exactly what this board is here for so if it doesn't make sense to you then feel free to leave.
Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
They didn't have the choice, they were brainwashed. If you pay really close attention and concentrate real hard, you'll find that it is the topic of the thread.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
It's all about getting to the Champagne Room
How can you leave now when you're only one step away from entering the Champagne Room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUG7q4pccqU
RogerB
Crusader
Rae,
Mary said it nicely. Your post expresses some valuable truths, and raise some important points. The “tech” as practiced since about the mid to late ‘70s and certainly in the ‘80s after the midget took over has been destructive. And now we have the factual reason why and that it was maliciously intended by the source of the “tech.”
There is something else I might add here. It’s an observation of why it has been that we could have been so ensnared and trapped into looking in, looking in for what was wrong with us (ourselves) and “what were/are our ‘overts’ and/or W/Hs not yet found,” etc., etc., yip yap, yip.
What I’m about to write might help some folks and blow some charge . . . it also might offend some
The false tech that is run on folks has been the notion that they “had to have ‘overts’ and W/Hs against others, the environment, the Cof$ and whatever else was the flavor of the month of latest tech ideas.” And I put ‘overts’ in quotation marks for a reason. And that’s because notion of “overts” as has been too often applied is, itself, part of the false, wrong and damaging “tech.”
And there is an entrapping underlying reason why and how come we would have looked in to find these wrongly indicated things.
Intrinsically, we all have done things we have regretted doing, and we as human Beings are basically operating on and with a withholding of self. But the real deal is that these are actions and causes on self! They are of a different class of thing than what the Cof$ constantly accused us of. And it is also true that these causes/dones and W/Hs were not necessarily evilly intended . . . just clumsy wrong answers!
And the truth, in my experience, is that this is the stuff (the self to self stuff) that one really needs to clean up and undo in the long run . . . . but the rants by the Cof$ falsely accusing one of having O/Ws on other than self as it has been doing to its most advanced people and staff is missing this underlying true case scenario charge, and screwing things up big time!
The problem is, intrinsically, deep down, we have a sense that we are “withholding/restraining” something . . . but we have been missing it is us doing it to ourselves. So to ask for the generality of a “W/H” in the way it is being done with the presumption you’ve done it to another is a very destructive act. And it is to be noted, it will produce the BPC and upsets necessary to cause you to want to get the hell out of and away from there! Ditto the things we have “done” (to ourselves) we regret doing and have long ago hidden from self.
It seems obvious to me now, that the mis-use the O/W tech in the form of constant sec checking is a malicious control mechanism and one also designed to rip mega $$$ out of people. It is also very destructive.
It also should be said that the original 1960 version of “O/W” dealt with good causes as well as the stuff you wish you hadn’t done. To fixate on wrongnesses and bad cause as the Cof$ now does is actually a mark of its insanity. To concentrate on wrongness and “bad’ instead of addressing what is right and powerful and good that it might be enhanced and empowered is quite evil and insane.
There is a lot of good in us that should be honored and empowered.
RogerB
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
We?
Speak for yourself Roger, the above is not applicable to me.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
We?
Speak for yourself Roger, the above is not applicable to me.
It looks to me as if you need to go back for reprogramming, go see the extremely creepy man hold a pair of soup cans, he will help you get right
lkwdblds
Crusader
My experience may be similar to that of others.
My experience may be similar to that of many others. Two things which are seldom mentioned are factors internal to Scientology:
TWO INTERNAL FACTORS
1a. Scientology public are for the most part decent people with above average intelligence and the dedication to make society better.
1b. Scientology staff members are generally fine dedicated people and believe in what they are doing and are not aware that it is a scam.
2a. Scientology public are not allowed to discuss their case or the tech with other public. The penalties for doing so are severe.
2b. Scientology staff are not allowed to give their own opinions and must always refer questions from public or their juniors to LRH (Source).
TWO EXTERNAL FACTORS
3. While the physical sciences on Earth have progressed boldly, the humanities have not. Though there has been major progress in recent decades, psychology and psychiatry back in the 1940's and 1950's was not keeping step with the rapid progress in the physical sciences.
4. The manjor world Religions back in the 40's and 50's were looked at with skepticism and were not meeting the needs of the newer generation. In WWI both sides worshiped the same God and claimed he was on their side and in WWII, the major religions did not denounce the inhuman actions of the Nazis in a courageous manner and their reputations were tarnished.
For me personally, I was not finding what I wanted in the religion which I was born into and was looking for something else. I worked in aerospace and noticed that while the physical sciences were moving forward by leaps and bounds, the human type sciences were not really progressing.
I was open to something new and Scientology's pitch hooked me in.
1a and 1b above were a huge factor in my staying in for 31 years. The types of people who I was meeting in the Orgs, both staff and public, appeared in my estimation to be of higher caliber and had a better purpose than the non Scientologists whom I was running into at work and other places. I was a single guy when I got in and I was lonely and looking for friends and a wife. The selection of potential friends and lovers at the Orgs was fantastic. I was afraid to give that up and return to the "Wog" world where I falsely perceived people to be far less enlightened.
Factors 2a and 2b then came into play. They were control factors designed by Hubbard. Had the public and/or staffs been allowed to discuss the tech and their cases with one another, I believe that very few people would have kept paying the big bucks over the decades.
CHILDREN In my case, I would not tolerate the Orgs dictating how my kids would be raised. Teenage recruiters were threatening me and my wife with declares if we tried to insist that our kids finish high school. This was when my two kids were between 12 and 15. As soon as that started and we did our write ups to management complaining about over zealous recruitment and the Orgs ignored our write ups, our entire family quickly left C of S for good.
Lakey
My experience may be similar to that of many others. Two things which are seldom mentioned are factors internal to Scientology:
TWO INTERNAL FACTORS
1a. Scientology public are for the most part decent people with above average intelligence and the dedication to make society better.
1b. Scientology staff members are generally fine dedicated people and believe in what they are doing and are not aware that it is a scam.
2a. Scientology public are not allowed to discuss their case or the tech with other public. The penalties for doing so are severe.
2b. Scientology staff are not allowed to give their own opinions and must always refer questions from public or their juniors to LRH (Source).
TWO EXTERNAL FACTORS
3. While the physical sciences on Earth have progressed boldly, the humanities have not. Though there has been major progress in recent decades, psychology and psychiatry back in the 1940's and 1950's was not keeping step with the rapid progress in the physical sciences.
4. The manjor world Religions back in the 40's and 50's were looked at with skepticism and were not meeting the needs of the newer generation. In WWI both sides worshiped the same God and claimed he was on their side and in WWII, the major religions did not denounce the inhuman actions of the Nazis in a courageous manner and their reputations were tarnished.
For me personally, I was not finding what I wanted in the religion which I was born into and was looking for something else. I worked in aerospace and noticed that while the physical sciences were moving forward by leaps and bounds, the human type sciences were not really progressing.
I was open to something new and Scientology's pitch hooked me in.
1a and 1b above were a huge factor in my staying in for 31 years. The types of people who I was meeting in the Orgs, both staff and public, appeared in my estimation to be of higher caliber and had a better purpose than the non Scientologists whom I was running into at work and other places. I was a single guy when I got in and I was lonely and looking for friends and a wife. The selection of potential friends and lovers at the Orgs was fantastic. I was afraid to give that up and return to the "Wog" world where I falsely perceived people to be far less enlightened.
Factors 2a and 2b then came into play. They were control factors designed by Hubbard. Had the public and/or staffs been allowed to discuss the tech and their cases with one another, I believe that very few people would have kept paying the big bucks over the decades.
CHILDREN In my case, I would not tolerate the Orgs dictating how my kids would be raised. Teenage recruiters were threatening me and my wife with declares if we tried to insist that our kids finish high school. This was when my two kids were between 12 and 15. As soon as that started and we did our write ups to management complaining about over zealous recruitment and the Orgs ignored our write ups, our entire family quickly left C of S for good.
Lakey
TG1
Angelic Poster
Anybody here been in group therapy before? The kind where people sit together in a circle and run their shit up the flagpole for others to read / look at / evaluate? There are some benefits to be obtained from such sessions, but they can also be destructive, not to mention irritating as shit.
In fact, group therapy is tailormade to generate "wrong indications" and whatever else it is that causes you to want to haul off and bitch slap everybody in the room because they are so fucking stupid and do not GET YOU!
A complicating element in group therapy is that everybody's working from their own unique problem or trauma toward their own recovery, even if the group was organized to focus on a common topic like "Marriage" or "Alcohol Abuse" or "Recovering from Having Been in a Cult."
My marriage is nothing like your marriage was. My alcohol abuse was quite different from yours. My cult experience, even if it was the same cult during the same time frame and I played a similar role to yours, was unique to me. And to the extent our experiences in the cult varied, boy do I have a different take on things than you do.
Thereafter, bitch-slapping is inevitable.
But still, it's not very kind.
Therefore, I apologize for bitch-slapping anybody here lately. I'm now sitting on my hands.
TG1
tl;dr My deal ain't yours. And yours ain't mine.
In fact, group therapy is tailormade to generate "wrong indications" and whatever else it is that causes you to want to haul off and bitch slap everybody in the room because they are so fucking stupid and do not GET YOU!
A complicating element in group therapy is that everybody's working from their own unique problem or trauma toward their own recovery, even if the group was organized to focus on a common topic like "Marriage" or "Alcohol Abuse" or "Recovering from Having Been in a Cult."
My marriage is nothing like your marriage was. My alcohol abuse was quite different from yours. My cult experience, even if it was the same cult during the same time frame and I played a similar role to yours, was unique to me. And to the extent our experiences in the cult varied, boy do I have a different take on things than you do.
Thereafter, bitch-slapping is inevitable.
But still, it's not very kind.
Therefore, I apologize for bitch-slapping anybody here lately. I'm now sitting on my hands.
TG1
tl;dr My deal ain't yours. And yours ain't mine.
degraded being
Sponsor
Looking forward to Bill's next words.
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Being just human is good enough!
Thanks Roger, I totally agree with your perspective on this. I want you to know that even though we come from very different "camps" and life experiences, I really respect you and your skills as a counselor.
Basic socialization for kids in pre-school and kindergarten is to learn to control their negative and harmful impulses and to bring forward and encourage their helpful and cooperative impulses.
We are all capable of both, as part of being human. It's normal and natural. We are all human. We can work on ourselves to be the best humans that we can be, each according to his and her own best light to see by, which thankfully changes over time as we live and grow.
Nothing to be ashamed or astonished about, or to pay a ton of money for indoctrination about.
The notion that we must transform humanity into some new species (Homo Novus) in order to survive is false and self-defeating. Yes, we all have both harmful and helpful traits and impulses that we learn to control and modulate as part of our basic socialization.
And yes, some of us are more highly socialized than others. Some of us are even over-socialized! 
(I put myself in that camp~ along with all the "helping professions", teachers, nurses, ministers, social workers, counselors, etc., having made a career out of helping others to further their own socialization! 
)
Scientology has always been all about mind control and making money, making more money, and making other people to make money, to paraphrase Ron. Brainwashing is a very apt title for the concepts being discussed in this thread. Chuckie's posting of that anonymous video is very appropo here. (I loved seeing the great, iconic Bettie Page again, that Texas cutie! She was totally untrained as a dancer, model or actress, but the camera sure LOVED her! God Bless her wherever she is! She has put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces!)
I just want to say this...my sense of it is that we're all gonna be all right. The harmful and criminal acts of Corporate Scientology WILL be stopped, as there are too many of us working to stop these from too many different angles for our efforts to fail. Our individual efforts might not succeed in certain instances, but collectively, BOY, are we WINNING at doing systems change advocacy about Corporate Scientology worldwide!
I think even the die hard COS loyalists, the "true believers" (and I sense there are not many of them left) will eventually have to get on with real life, as the sinking ship of Corporate Scientology someday soon disappears out from under them. They are going to need our help when it does. I for one am here for them.
Even the ones who might call us "haters"!
People can and do heal and recover from all kinds of traumas, wounds, betrayals and disappointments in life, and do recover from all kinds of indoctrinations. I see evidence of lots and lots of healing and growth shown over time by the members of this board, and elsewhere.
Keep up the good work, everyone!
And sorry, I lost track of all the new members on this thread, but welcome Newbies!
Thanks Roger, I totally agree with your perspective on this. I want you to know that even though we come from very different "camps" and life experiences, I really respect you and your skills as a counselor.
Basic socialization for kids in pre-school and kindergarten is to learn to control their negative and harmful impulses and to bring forward and encourage their helpful and cooperative impulses.
We are all capable of both, as part of being human. It's normal and natural. We are all human. We can work on ourselves to be the best humans that we can be, each according to his and her own best light to see by, which thankfully changes over time as we live and grow.
Nothing to be ashamed or astonished about, or to pay a ton of money for indoctrination about.
The notion that we must transform humanity into some new species (Homo Novus) in order to survive is false and self-defeating. Yes, we all have both harmful and helpful traits and impulses that we learn to control and modulate as part of our basic socialization.And yes, some of us are more highly socialized than others.
Some of us are even over-socialized! (I put myself in that camp~ along with all the "helping professions", teachers, nurses, ministers, social workers, counselors, etc., having made a career out of helping others to further their own socialization! )Scientology has always been all about mind control and making money, making more money, and making other people to make money, to paraphrase Ron. Brainwashing is a very apt title for the concepts being discussed in this thread. Chuckie's posting of that anonymous video is very appropo here. (I loved seeing the great, iconic Bettie Page again, that Texas cutie! She was totally untrained as a dancer, model or actress, but the camera sure LOVED her! God Bless her wherever she is! She has put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces!
)I just want to say this...my sense of it is that we're all gonna be all right. The harmful and criminal acts of Corporate Scientology WILL be stopped, as there are too many of us working to stop these from too many different angles for our efforts to fail. Our individual efforts might not succeed in certain instances, but collectively, BOY, are we WINNING at doing systems change advocacy about Corporate Scientology worldwide!
I think even the die hard COS loyalists, the "true believers" (and I sense there are not many of them left) will eventually have to get on with real life, as the sinking ship of Corporate Scientology someday soon disappears out from under them. They are going to need our help when it does. I for one am here for them.
Even the ones who might call us "haters"!
People can and do heal and recover from all kinds of traumas, wounds, betrayals and disappointments in life, and do recover from all kinds of indoctrinations. I see evidence of lots and lots of healing and growth shown over time by the members of this board, and elsewhere.
Keep up the good work, everyone!
And sorry, I lost track of all the new members on this thread, but welcome Newbies!
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SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
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