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Eight dynamics

guanoloco

As-Wased
I think Jon is basically over the whole thing, Durrant and Scovel-Shinn were mentioned earlier. Jon said his article might be useful:
http://www.spaink.net/cos/essays/atack_origin.html
It has a lot of information, but I don't think its by any means definitive or complete, but it is rather long.

The area of historical development of systems and ideas is difficult because so many of that kind of book is now out of print and difficult to find, and have also been discarded by contemporary libraries. Also, much of Hubbard's background is in the secret satanic societies with closed libraries.

Hubbard's genius was in whacking something together with such enthusiasm, charisma and bravado (and creation of a system of persistent peer pressure) as to 'make it true' for many.

Thanks, Jump, I was really hoping that Atack would've found the original Victorian book.
 

pnut

Patron
And how exactly is that different from 'surviving'? ... :whistling:

:biggrin:

Two rules of thumb:

1. A literal interpretation is usually an impediment to conceptual understanding.

2. Whenever possible choose conceptual understanding.


Mark A. Baker

How is "experiencing the world" or "observing life" different from "surviving"?
That's interesting, I didn't know one could so easily mistake between the two..
The way I see it, 'surviving' means preserving your safe and healthy conditions despite all dangers of the world, be that physical or emotional. If you have found a way to survive, you might as well continue on with that very same way throughout
your entire life.
But "experiencing" constantly changes, and it's a way wider concept. Also, I tend to think that when a person fights every waking moment in order to survive, there are many things he fails to "observe".
 

AnonKat

Crusader
How is "experiencing the world" or "observing life" different from "surviving"?
That's interesting, I didn't know one could so easily mistake between the two..
The way I see it, 'surviving' means preserving your safe and healthy conditions despite all dangers of the world, be that physical or emotional. If you have found a way to survive, you might as well continue on with that very same way throughout
your entire life.
But "experiencing" constantly changes, and it's a way wider concept. Also, I tend to think that when a person fights every waking moment in order to survive, there are many things he fails to "observe".

living > surviving
 
How is "experiencing the world" or "observing life" different from "surviving"?
That's interesting, I didn't know one could so easily mistake between the two..
The way I see it, 'surviving' means preserving your safe and healthy conditions despite all dangers of the world, be that physical or emotional. If you have found a way to survive, you might as well continue on with that very same way throughout
your entire life.
But "experiencing" constantly changes, and it's a way wider concept. Also, I tend to think that when a person fights every waking moment in order to survive, there are many things he fails to "observe".

Okay. Now take another look at the same thing BUT this time from the perspective that you are not a biological organism but are instead an immortal spirit. The latter view is that which forms the basis of scientology and is hence a necessary aspect to understanding hubbard's idea.


Mark A. Baker
 
Okay. Now take another look at the same thing BUT this time from the perspective that you are not a biological organism but are instead an immortal spirit. The latter view is that which forms the basis of scientology and is hence a necessary aspect to understanding hubbard's idea.


Mark A. Baker

That sounds so much like a scicultie....:roflmao:...what comes next? "And you can sign up for your next step right over here"? :whistling:
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
The dynamics are arbitrary divisions you can put a given goal, postulate, plan, purpose, etc. in. I think they're unnecessary complexity.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Okay. Now take another look at the same thing BUT this time from the perspective that you are not a biological organism but are instead an immortal spirit. The latter view is that which forms the basis of scientology and is hence a necessary aspect to understanding hubbard's idea.

Mark A. Baker

There are two different ways the immortal spirit can look at all the rest of it (any aspect of manifested anything).

He, or she, or it (since were talking from the viewpoint of what is fundamentally an invisible nothingness - unless it considers something otherwise) can either:

1) choose to be interested and concerned with some part of the illusion, and work in some way to "help", "make", "contribute towards" or "cause" some arbitrary aspect of all-that-is to CONTINUE or NOT in some way, or

2) REMAIN primarily conscious of Self as the immortal spirit, with very little or NO attention of any meaningful sort added to ANY aspect of the fleeting reality known as "this universe". In other words, your stance is totally "let it be", and you have abandoned, jettisoned, annihilated or let go of any attention on assisiting ANYTHING in surviving (out of any "urge" that cannot be turned on and off at will by yourself). See, Mark, if you truly ARE viewing FROM the viewpoint of the immortal spirit, all the rest of manifested anything is basically a MOCK-UP (Vedic: illusion, Maya). If one has arrived at all, then he or she will not have any serious degree or amount of attention on ANYTHING.

A legit spiritual path (my arbitrary here, my expression of value) would lead to number 2, and all the rest - the pretenders, and those who aren't even trying - lead to some version of number 1. The practice of Scientology usually leads to some version of number 1.

Mark, one need not consider him or herself to be a biological orgasm to become or be "stuck in the idea" and "act compulsively to assist the survival of said organism". That does occur, but one can be well "outside the body" and view all other things as "not itself", and still allow over-attention and significance to pull one away from the simple fact of what he, she or it REALLY is - an immortal spirit. And, this immortal spirit can even be entirely separate from a body, even without a body, and while in the vicinity of MEST, still happily imagine all sorts of realities, restrictions and limitations, and still harbor all sorts of identifications and associations with Self. The "body" is just the FIRST RUNG of the ladder! :omg:

Of course, if this model is totally wrong, and this "mapping" (model) of "what is" into 1) some immortal thingie that minimally animates, even possibly creates/created everthing else, and that acts with and through 2) all of the aspects of the universe (which is basically of the nature of "make-believe" - from the viewpoint of the immortal spirit), well, then NEVER-MIND!!!!!!!!!!

In the end NOBODY has a clue what the REAL nature of it all is. For all I know there REALLY is some tyrannical Jehovah-type God sitting on a big golden throne in Heaven who has MAJOR hissy-fits when his created "children" (human beings) don't give him intense attention, loud praise, constant thanks and sincere worship (He must be having a hemorrhage as I type these words, and Satan must be smiling).

But, for me, after all I have studied and contacted, I choose to ARBITRARILY, at least for now, maybe even temporarily, go with the notion that 1) the basis of consciousness is some quality of "awareness", 2) this awareness may possibly be immortal (it doesn't matter really because whether it is or isn't, mind & awareness are entirely invisible to physical reality and there is a long way to go between here and there), and that this "awareness" interacts with 3) the many manifested aspects of the various universes (physical, mental, emotional, imaginative, etc.). This immortal spirit may have created the very stuff that it imagines itself to be "stuck in" and "participates with". That makes it a bit trickier, but even forgetting THAT and leaving it unanswered for the moment, that the immortal spirit may have in some way created all-that-is, the BIG PROBLEM always comes down to some version of the spirit (whether immortal or not), which is basically a big "nothingness", getting confused and mis-identifying with it some aspect of the manifested universes. I don't think it can be stated any simpler. Not even in Hinduism or Buddhism.

Any legitimate spiritual path helps to remove that which has been resulting in mis-identification, allowing the spirit to, as a constant state of consciousness, primarily be aware of its own immense, calm, and serene awareness. It becomes the natural constant "background" for an entity who has achieved this - amazing calm, peace, serenity, expansive space, etc. Possibly, for all practical purposes, this person is no longer "human", but he or she in no way EVER imagines itself superior or better than anything - it doesn't imagine or add anything to the mix at all.

All bogus paths ADD to and increase mis-identification with things the spirit is not (anything):

I am a Scientologist
I am helping to clear the planet
OTs are better and more ethical than others, and I will become one

As I see it, and of course, I could be entirely wrong, a correct path involves:

Let It Be

There is no concern, aim, attention on or intention to cause ANYTHING to survive or not survive. There is ONLY one option if there is any truth to the above, and that is to walk the razor-edged tightrope where one lives and acts in life, even enegetically, yet still maintains and NEVER breaks the serene ocean of internal awareness that is IT.

But then, WHO has acheived THAT, and is it also just another ideal that cannot ever be reached? But, you won't know, I suppose, unless you try.
 
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uniquemand

Unbeliever
Another option is that we are beings (terms like spiritual, IMO, are meaningless) who are not immortal, but timeless. Time exists in periods for us, those periods defined by what we were doing, who we were with, etc. Most of us don't remember things in terms of "July 7, 1972", but instead, "that night I banged your sister on acid". Events are meaningful, efforts are meaningful, periods are defined by such things. When we say "it's the end of an era" we are not usually referring to a specific period of time, so much as the time period defined by a specific mode of dress, type of music, political climate, etc.

Some of those activities could be assigned to arbitrary divisions like "1st dynamic", or "8th dynamic", or as other Scientology-minded folks have done, adding additional dimensions of experience as dynamics. I don't see any reason to do this, except so that you might be able to tell someone they need to develop interests along a dynamic, thereby invalidating them as "merely operating on the first dynamic, whilst I operate on all 4, or 8, or 16".

Personally, I don't operate on dynamics. I operate on purposes and goals, using planning and visualizing steps along the way that will get me where I'm going, or get whatever I'm looking at getting done, done (whether it's shining my boots or changing the contents of the atmosphere). Some plans will require groups, some will require material objects, some will require family units or at least the help of a handy woman (until cloning becomes cheap and viable), etc. I can't think of any goals or plans I have that require interaction with spirits or a God, or with other species, right now (except that loss of the other species would probably be a bad thing for the atmosphere and the food chain). If I did have such plans (lets say I wanted to free the souls being tortured in Hell), then I'd incorporate getting in touch with the Head Honcho somehow.

People's plans and goals are all different, dependent on their belief systems. There's no need to suggest that they add "dynamics" to their program, so that they can add targets and goals on those, also. Just deal with what's in front of you! For yourself, why would you need such divisions, except as an organizational tool for your activities? That's why I think it's arbitrary, though if you do have a huge range of things you want to accomplish, categorizing them might help keep track of them.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Another option is that we are beings (terms like spiritual, IMO, are meaningless) who are not immortal, but timeless. Time exists in periods for us, those periods defined by what we were doing, who we were with, etc. Most of us don't remember things in terms of "July 7, 1972", but instead, "that night I banged your sister on acid". Events are meaningful, efforts are meaningful, periods are defined by such things. When we say "it's the end of an era" we are not usually referring to a specific period of time, so much as the time period defined by a specific mode of dress, type of music, political climate, etc.

Some of those activities could be assigned to arbitrary divisions like "1st dynamic", or "8th dynamic", or as other Scientology-minded folks have done, adding additional dimensions of experience as dynamics. I don't see any reason to do this, except so that you might be able to tell someone they need to develop interests along a dynamic, thereby invalidating them as "merely operating on the first dynamic, whilst I operate on all 4, or 8, or 16".

Personally, I don't operate on dynamics. I operate on purposes and goals, using planning and visualizing steps along the way that will get me where I'm going, or get whatever I'm looking at getting done, done (whether it's shining my boots or changing the contents of the atmosphere). Some plans will require groups, some will require material objects, some will require family units or at least the help of a handy woman (until cloning becomes cheap and viable), etc. I can't think of any goals or plans I have that require interaction with spirits or a God, or with other species, right now (except that loss of the other species would probably be a bad thing for the atmosphere and the food chain). If I did have such plans (lets say I wanted to free the souls being tortured in Hell), then I'd incorporate getting in touch with the Head Honcho somehow.

People's plans and goals are all different, dependent on their belief systems. There's no need to suggest that they add "dynamics" to their program, so that they can add targets and goals on those, also. Just deal with what's in front of you! For yourself, why would you need such divisions, except as an organizational tool for your activities? That's why I think it's arbitrary, though if you do have a huge range of things you want to accomplish, categorizing them might help keep track of them.

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

It doesn't really matter what one CALLS these arbitrary sections of life called "the dynamics", but what truly matters is what one DOES WITH THEM in terms of using them as a possible gauge for "things to handle" along some set of goals, and in terms of real living - how one treats his or her fellow beings.

Granted some of these "fellow beings" (whimper, sad) can be real major assholes, and it isn't so easy to treat them so kindly, such as those who murder people, torture people, rape people, lie about people, lie to people, manipulate people, hurt other people for profit, steal from people, abuse people, hurt the environment for a profit, cheat, aim to control people for personal gain, and so forth, ad nauseum. Maybe that was partially why Buddha decided it was time to figure out how to finally step off of the wheel of birth and death (pain, disease, suffering, etc) - or at least take a vacation.
 
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decodeq

New Member
I felt like starting a discussion about the eight dynamics because I found it to be the ONLY thing coming from Hubbard, that actually sounds nice and has something to do with spirituality.
In fact, I was so surprised to learn that Hubbard came up with the idea of Eight Dynamics, that I searched the web to find out whose original idea was it:wink2:

Anyway, to me- as someone who was never involved in Scientology, but read so much about it in the past two years, and am a spiritual person in general- the division of self, sex and family (oh yeah, "creativity". Sorry Miscavige, please don't hit me), group, human race, different life forms, physical world, spirituality and finally infinity (may it not be Xenu-_-)-

There was a commonly agreed-upon set of dynamics (or sequence of 'how to' manifest things), which composed of 16 or 17 dynamics:

(possibly) 17 Anticipation-Desire

16 Creation

15 Play-Games

14 Knowledge-Learning

13 Change-Alignment

12 Reason-Orientation

11 Construction

10 Protect-Ethics

9 Aesthetics

8 Worship-Religion

7 Spirits

6 Physical (Matter-Energy-Space-Time)

5 Lifeforms

4 Society

3 Groups

2 Sexuality-Children-Family

1 Body-Food

17th may have not been used as dynamics (requires investigation to confirm that)

There are also indications, that 'lower' 8 dynamics are sort-of collapsed with 'upper' 8 in the next manner:

1 Body-survive >< 9 Protect-Ethics
2 Sexuality-Family >< 10 Aesthetics
3 Groups >< 11 Construction
4 Society >< 12 Reason-Orientation
5 Life >< 13 Change-Alignment
6 Physical >< 14 Knowledge-Learning
7 Spirits >< 15 Play-Games
8 Worship-Religion >< 16 Creation
0 Anticipation >< 17 Desire (?)

If you sort-out these dynamics, it's easier to see anatomy of currently agreed-upon set's of universes and systems
However, these dynamics are sort-of template, you may not use them as well
To put in short, it's an sort-of pre-ordened commonly made template of how to manifest things or ideas
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
DM dynamics

Since Dear Leader is not constrained by the things that bind the rest of humanity or even his elite clique of Scientological Ubermensch, I figured I should come up with a set of DM dynamics:

1) Unfiltered Camels (lots)
2) Macallan single malt scotch, at least 12 years old
3) Other sea ogre's wives
4) OSA goons
5) Private investigators
6) Lawyers
7) Money
8) More money
9) Even more money
10) Lots more money
11) you get the idea

Pete
 
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