ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Zinjifar]

In any case, 'granting beingness' does not include humoring people and pretending that the drivel they promote tastes just yummy.

Nobody on ESMB is in the position to 'change' anyone's mind, much less *force* them to alter their beliefs or 'prevent' them from practicing them. But, I dont' see anything wrong with calling drivel drivel.

Naturally, it can turn mean spirited and become rude, but, the mere act of vocally (or textually) rejecting someone's cherished beliefs, or even making fun of them isn't.

This is not Scientology, where 'entheta' and ridicule inevitably 'introvert' or 'cave in' the target. Believe what you will, speak about it if you care to and take the catcalls as they come.

And, if you *promote* drivel, don't be surprised if people monkeywrench your marketing.

Zinj

 

[Boldgirl]

In any case, 'granting beingness' does not include humoring people and pretending that the drivel they promote tastes just yummy.

Nobody on ESMB is in the position to 'change' anyone's mind, much less *force* them to alter their beliefs or 'prevent' them from practicing them. But, I dont' see anything wrong with calling drivel drivel.

Naturally, it can turn mean spirited and become rude, but, the mere act of vocally (or textually) rejecting someone's cherished beliefs, or even making fun of them isn't.

This is not Scientology, where 'entheta' and ridicule inevitably 'introvert' or 'cave in' the target. Believe what you will, speak about it if you care to and take the catcalls as they come.

And, if you *promote* drivel, don't be surprised if people monkeywrench your marketing.

Zinj

Right on. I know I am stirring the pot. But I also know that this board woke we up and I can speak my opinion here. I appreciate that. If I wake up even one FZ'er, I would be happy. But if not, well that's ok-

This is not scientology so forget 'entheta' and feeling 'enturbualted' by someone's opinion....it's called a person's opinion in the real world.

Anyway-good post.

 

[acertainratio]

In any case, 'granting beingness' does not include humoring people and pretending that the drivel they promote tastes just yummy.

Nobody on ESMB is in the position to 'change' anyone's mind, much less *force* them to alter their beliefs or 'prevent' them from practicing them. But, I dont' see anything wrong with calling drivel drivel.

Naturally, it can turn mean spirited and become rude, but, the mere act of vocally (or textually) rejecting someone's cherished beliefs, or even making fun of them isn't.

This is not Scientology, where 'entheta' and ridicule inevitably 'introvert' or 'cave in' the target. Believe what you will, speak about it if you care to and take the catcalls as they come.

And, if you *promote* drivel, don't be surprised if people monkeywrench your marketing.

Zinj

Well said!

 

[acertainratio]

Another board that I belong to - non Scn related, has a policy of not permitting efforts to seek converts or customers.

People who violate that are given a few warnings, and if they don't knock it off, they are ejected. That's one option.

Another option - as others have stated, is to allow people to say whatever they like, as long as it falls within the boundaries of common decency.

Personally I find it a drag and a bore when people try to peddle their wares, but I just pass it by.

Another thing I'd like to say is that yes, some people are vulnerable when they leave the church and perhaps also when they leave th FZ, but I don't think that wrapping them up in cotton wool is a good idea.

Better that they get to see the whole spectrum, so they know what's really going on.

Then they can make their own minds up.

Just my opinion.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Cmon guys, give me a break here. LRH is NOT SOURCE, SCN IS NOT SOURCE, DN IS NOT SOURCE! Stop keeping the con alive.

Haha.. I know! I promise!

I retain an interest in 'the tech' for the purpose of figuring out how Hubbard did it. I credit him with the content and alterations that worked to catch me and a lot of people in it.. Heh.. To quote some scientologists (they were talking wistfully about attaining OT): 'Maybe not in this lifetime...' - I don't expect to fully understand how Hubbard trapped me in this lifetime.. However, I don't believe that I'll have another lifetime. That is one of the unanswerable questions that Hubbard presumed to answer. And which I've had to throw the hell away.. The jury's out in the cold on that one.

Everything Hubbard said went that way. See, that guy told me about the obscene dog and venusian freight locomotives.. There's more, but don't wait.. After whoppers like these I'll have to assume everything out of the top end of him is lies.

Which brings us to the freezone..

Mindboggeling!

So, I'm usually not this confrontational about the tech or the freezone. I do understand that people can have another take on this. After I quit muself I didn't want anything to do with the subject, but in fact I supported it. I thought Scn was right, about everything and me.. My peculiar situation was that I 'knew' I was an SP, so that Scn and the tech was useless to me for that reason. I was an enemy by the cults definitions.

But the vital statistic is this: Scientology has evolved into a supressive group. Looking for the world like a new edition of fascism mixed with the worst of superstitious religion from the dark ages.

This has happened in spite of all the scientologists good intentions!

To quote myself:

As I see this, the Freezone needs to ensure that they don't become a new Milgram, or Stanford experiment.

Here's the links again as a public service:
the Milgram Experiment
The Stanford Prison Experiment

If scientology has any value for mental and/or spiritual betterment, then we should expect results other than the evil mess we can observe.

 

[Boldgirl]

Another board that I belong to - non Scn related, has a policy of not permitting efforts to seek converts or customers.

People who violate that are given a few warnings, and if they don't knock it off, they are ejected. That's one option.

Another option - as others have stated, is to allow people to say whatever they like, as long as it falls within the boundaries of common decency.

Personally I find it a drag and a bore when people try to peddle their wares, but I just pass it by.

Another thing I'd like to say is that yes, some people are vulnerable when they leave the church and perhaps also when they leave th FZ, but I don't think that wrapping them up in cotton wool is a good idea.

Better that they get to see the whole spectrum, so they know what's really going on.

Then they can make their own minds up.

Just my opinion.

I like that idea-people should not be allowed to solicit to get customers for scn auditing. But if you read the FZ comments and their quotes it is advertising everytime they post.

I do think anything at all having to do with FZ should all be put in one thread or forum and not covertly weaved throughout the whole MB by the posters.But then again-I am sure that this would be a labor intensive request and I am just glad the MB is here period.

In terms of what is considered common decency--good luck with that. A scientologist FZ person may find certain posts 'enturbulating' because they are still of the mindset that they shouldnt have to be enturbulated.....
that's a no win situation with strongly worded posts.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Well no not really.

Bottom line is that it has been shown in abundance from OG research, well researched and proven, referenced books, etc etc that 'all' or most all of scientology or dianetics comes from a different source. So, why keep the CON alive by giving a sociopath the credit and funds? Why support a cause that breaks up families, controls and tortures people? You may not be giving any more money but you saying 'the tech worked for you' is supporting the con ! Why not see where this tech came from, read THAT and say -hey that helped me or that works for me....steer people AWAY from a cult and into CRITICAL THINKING.

We all liked the simple outline, labelling, paradigm hubbard put all these ageless concepts and wisdom into-it made it easier to get in one place....only hello.....he changed it to create a cult, he changed it to keep you introverted, he changed it to control your mind, he changed it to make you a person who has to fit all that happens to you in life into a neat box/book that you can just flip to for an answer...WHAT A FREAKIN TRAP!

well....here is this book, this religion who put all the answers in books FOR US and so I will accept him as 'source'. That's what they insist upon--they have told me so! YOU MUST ACCEPT LRH AS SOURCE OR YOU ARE AN SP. So, you decide that because LRH did all the research himself so he says, you dont have to think anymore! HE TOLD US that he read it all and did it all so we dont have to bother to look ourselves !... and he put it together for US because he loves us and wants man to to be clear! So, it must be true .....so I dont have to go research myself and hey it's ok if I give him credit and treat his church and him as a deity....practically.

Cmon guys, give me a break here. LRH is NOT SOURCE, SCN IS NOT SOURCE, DN IS NOT SOURCE! Stop keeping the con alive.

Any temporary successes** I had in scn could have been gotten in so many other ways, without the damaging mind control, introversion, cult think, invalidation, and without me giving money to a false church supporting a crazy leader bent on world domination and torturing it's members.

So I say, take your wins.

Then confront the fact that scn and dn basics have been around for a lot longer than LRonn was, and there is much in society that offers long term relief and help without indoctrination and highway robbery.

I just dont see how folks want to keep saying the tech works knowing the facts that are right in front of our faces....I will never get it!

You're projecting a lot of things on to me that I'm not saying. I've never said anyone should join the CofS, in fact I've made it clear that I consider them to be a very sick organisation that everyone should steer clear of. Nor did I say that LRH was source (he himself said exactly the opposite, and I've said the same in my thread comparing him and Osho).

Of course help is available elsewhere, I had a housemate who benefited greatly from going to confession once (he was a Catholic).

That doesn't alter the fact that I and others have had gains from the Tech.

 

[Pixie]

Well that would make things easier but I can't see a way to do that. What would you suggest?

Well here's a suggestion, if anyone wants to 'advertise'.. CHARGE THEM!!

 

[Dulloldfart]

Well here's a suggestion, if anyone wants to 'advertise'.. CHARGE THEM!!

How about a 10% FSM Commission?

Paul

 

[Good twin]

How about a 10% FSM Commission?

Paul

I'm in!

 

[Boldgirl]

Haha.. I know! I promise!

I retain an interest in 'the tech' for the purpose of figuring out how Hubbard did it. I credit him with the content and alterations that worked to catch me and a lot of people in it.. Heh..

Hubbard reinvented the wheel that was there that other groups used for cultlike mind control purposes. That's all...no great mystery to it. Many have talked of the similiarities to techniques used by nazi's and the occult.

To quote some scientologists (they were talking wistfully about attaining OT): 'Maybe not in this lifetime...' - I don't expect to fully understand how Hubbard trapped me in this lifetime.. However, I don't believe that I'll have another lifetime.

Well I sure hope this isnt it. I believe we have many but not in the way hubbard describes it. The bok "Journey of Souls" helped me with that-but still I have always believed this way anyway.

That is one of the unanswerable questions that Hubbard presumed to answer. And which I've had to throw the hell away.. The jury's out in the cold on that one.

Agreed. It is funny how many times I was falling down while in, actually getting clutzy and upset too much and they would ask me what was the suppressive in my life....and it was always "THIS PLACE" that came to mind forst ...then they would just look at me like 'OK now seriously'....hahaha ...THE CHURCH IS THE SUPPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOO HOO! FOUND! thank you your needle is floating.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Agreed. It is funny how many times I was falling down while in, actually getting clutzy and upset too much and they would ask me what was the suppressive in my life....and it was always "THIS PLACE" that came to mind forst ...then they would just look at me like 'OK now seriously'....hahaha ...THE CHURCH IS THE SUPPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOO HOO! FOUND! thank you your needle is floating.

Yes. I can remember the exact place I was standing when I had that cognition, but it took me 8 years after leaving to finally really get it.

Paul

 

[Boldgirl]

Yes. I can remember the exact place I was standing when I had that cognition, but it took me 8 years after leaving to finally really get it.

Paul

It took this message board for me to realize ---hey I was right! It is the C if s that is the suppressive!!!

 

[acertainratio]

Of course help is available elsewhere, I had a housemate who benefited greatly from going to confession once (he was a Catholic).

That doesn't alter the fact that I and others have had gains from the Tech.

I had great results in the auditing I had. That's a long time ago now, but I remember it fondly and don't regret it. I would not advise for or against someone trying it - it's up to them, and I don't consider myself an expert.

Who knows what people need, or what will help them?

I think a lot of people are seeking a group to belong to, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is a group that gives as much as it takes.

It seems funny to me that after my adventures in Scientology, that I am back where I started, as a Torah studying, yarmulka and tzitsit wearing, orthodox jew, but it makes me happy, so hey don't knock it. I am an active member in several community projects in the broader community and get a lot from it.

There are all kinds of healthy groups out there to belong to, and there are lots of ways to grow as a person.

Excuse my awful grammar and punctuation - English is not my best language.

 

[Pitbull]

Out of one cult (scientology) into another cult (orthodox judaism).

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Good for you! One of my best friends is Jewish and has found a lot of comfort in her religion.

 

[acertainratio]

Out of one cult (scientology) into another cult (orthodox judaism).

Each to their own, my friend.

 

[Pitbull]

Yes, one man's gold is another man's garbage or something like that.

At least the Orthodox do not actively rucruit outsiders and only brainwash
their own children.

 

[acertainratio]

Yes, one man's gold is another man's garbage or something like that.

At least the Orthodox do not actively rucruit outsiders and only brainwash
their own children.

Do you know a lot about it then?

 

[Pixie]

Why? because the tech hurt me, it broke me, it damaged me and it is deadly serious crap when you are messing with people's minds. So the FZ's can keep saying how the tech works....but I for one say vehemently and 1000000% that FZ's have no right and no qualifications for messing with people's minds with a technology that has hurt people from 'being broken spiritually' to DEATH...

In my estimation, FZ'es are Hubbard lovers, still under mind control, and are still scientologists.

My sentiments exactly!