ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Zinjifar]

Do you know a lot about it then?

I'd recommend ignoring Pitbull; it's a noisebot only interested in practicing black dianetics.

Reverse tone-scale exercises dontchaknow.

Zinj

 

[acertainratio]

I'd recommend ignoring Pitbull; it's a noisebot only interested in practicing black dianetics.

Reverse tone-scale exercises dontchaknow.

Zinj

Very funny - thanks.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Nuts! - I recall the moment I switched from considering myself supresssive.. More than 10 years ago now.. The situation arose because I found an old (almost) girlfriend of mine, who's still in the cult.

And so she wanted me to read the ethics book.. And do my A to E's and all that.. Well, I didn't think so, but was flattered no end.

I read the book however.

I got 'emotional' to the brink of crying when I read the Bolivar policy. Here was this insane idea that we needed to be at war with the rest of humanity. The careful explanations why war doctrine and strife was the way of scientology. And Hubbard trying to sell me the idea that this shit was 'romantic' and desireable... There's even an obvious suggestion that murder is acceptable in that policy.. Tigers who survive.. The Black Panther mechanism..

My GF, and my wife and kids, disconnected for more than a decade, caught inside that insane mindbender circus... I just realized the enormity then... Yes I got to be quite emotional..

But I realized then that Hubbard was stark raving mad. Which probably meant that I was ok!

I then got onto the internet. First time I entered the word 'Scientology' into a search engine. Couple of days later I specifically went for OTIII. There was a post on ARS with a link that didn't work.

My fear of dying from phneumonia went away as I read about DC8's and all those poor people being thrown into volcanoes from thousands of feet in the air. And then, to add mayhem to negligence, being bloown up with hydrogen bombs.. And then, to add insult to both mayhem and negligence, being caught as spirits on special sticky spirit flypaper and forced to watch bad movies for days on end! (Movies as bad as Battlefield Earth I fear!)

 

[Pitbull]

Thats a load of codswallop, O invalidating one.

Truth is, many groups are extememly cult-like.

The Orthodox jews are a prime example. The rules, the insularity,
the in-bred communities. The clothing. I could go on.

Now that doesn't mean judaism isn't a beautiful religion and these
aren't very spirtual people. I'm just saying its EXTREMELY cultlike.

And children born into these families don't have much choice but
to experience extreme indoctriniation.

 

[Pixie]

I'm sorry you feel like this, but the answer's simple; just put me and other FZ believers on ignore. Problem solved.

It's not quite that simple Cat's Squirrel, that doesn't stop them from jumping all over newbies and lurkers, they hijack almost every single thread with their 'beliefs' and flaunt advertising in your face, putting them on 'ignore' is a cop out and not really an option IMO.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

There is also an "LH" on the IFAchat yahoo group who was less than welcoming.

Just to confuse you all.

Actually, EM, that was LR.

She is, to my mind and that of many other freezoners around the world, a right bloody PIA! She is NOTORIOUS for sowing discord throughout the freezone.

She is on numerous fz boards, unfortunately. Her posts are commonly abusive, insulting, and demanding of total adherence to every word of LRH as if it were divine scripture. Although, to her credit, if you ARE seeking an LRH quote on almost any subject she is definitely the "go to gal".

I personally dearly wish she would go BACK into the SO from whence she came. That however is unlikely as she regards DM as her mortal enemy and is avidly awaiting the 2nd coming of LRH.

The principal others with whom you "crossed swords" were Chris the IFA Snr/CS. A gentleman who is by all accounts an excellent tech terminal, but is also known for occasionally dealing harshly with others in his posts. Generally not his "intent" but he can be easily angered by what he sees as "attacks on KSW". And Roy (I forget his IFA "post"), an old time SO exec and another "KSW" purist.

[The above is of course my description but you get the drift.]



Mark A. Baker

 

[Dulloldfart]

It's not quite that simple Cat's Squirrel, that doesn't stop them from jumping all over newbies and lurkers, they hijack almost every single thread with their 'beliefs' and flaunt advertising in your face, putting them on 'ignore' is a cop out and not really an option IMO.

Look at it from another viewpoint, Pixiegal. A newbie or lurker arrives and thinks the tech is great, but hates the CofS and can't understand why they screw the tech up so much. They come here looking for answers and at every turn they come across critics who trash Hubbard's tech on nearly every thread!

Paul

 

[Terril park]

[snip]
Perhaps Terril would give us a description of each group and their intent!

I find it exciting that ESMB and XSO have helped thousands of people get free of the Scio programs that they were trapped in. They are great models of basic ways to communicate about a subject.

Bottom line - lets allow free speech......just like when Tom Cruise jumped on the couch - sometimes too much attention can blow a subject to pieces.

Alan

I've yet another 100 or so messages to read on this thread, and have just sat down at my computer. But felt I should give some sort of answer here, and there will be a more detailed one later.

I'm very liberal by inclination. However I support and promote " standard tech". But am also a loose cannon. I have got into trouble with most major
terminals in the " standard tech" freezone. Really serious trouble.

However I do not " take sides". Paul of Robot auditor fame is a personal friend and we had many interesting discussions re his early marketing of his ideas.

The first person I visited on my trip to visit Freezone friends and others was Alan. [ cos he was nearest too me. ] Very enjoyable meeting. I since tried to persuade my friend who also visited that Alan would be a very good terminal for tech. And he is of course not "standard".

Its very intersting to me to have read so far several accounts of people who found the FZ helpful re leaving COS but then left it for other tech or perhaps no tech. If that was all I achieved by promoting the FZ I would feel I've done something worthwhile.

However I've seen so many examples of " miracles" of one sort or another from " standard tech". Actually I don't think its that " standard" but thats another issue.

Tech done with a pure heart for the gain of someone else is a beautiful achievement. I've met so many wonderful old timers in my travels who do just that. A common denominator was that they were all in some way not
" standard".

 

[Pixie]

To be honest,

I think I foresaw the time when Scientologists here would be herded up and shot.

Pixie,
I read what Teril wrote which I felt was disgusting and then his sudden amnesia was just worst. If you have read some of the posts here regarding Teril you will have noticed that a former UK FZ'er attacked Teril heavily and claimed that Teril was involved with the break-up and demise of the UK Freezone (well, his own group which had declining membership, with people going there happy to study but not getting the services or the treatment they expected). Do you think this type of promotion is effective? It may be that Teril does more harm than good for the FZ colleagues he has elected himself to represent (or in the case of IFA- he's beeen given the position).

Your evidently very hurt by your experiences in scientology and the Church is now reaping the effect of the spiritual harm it has caused people. To be honest, I was hurt too, though I have found it easier to move on than other people and have found myself lucky in that respect. I still study and read Scientology subjects at home but also read many other subjects on the spirit, occultism and sciences in order to get as many viewpoints as possible as I don't believe any one subject holds the full set of the cards on what is true, including Scientology. I choose not to be in the FZ as I feel it is TBH a fairly apathetic affair and the same old agendas and egos. Scientology did a damn lot of good for me and for the people I audited. I cannot speak for them now as I have not seen these PC's in years or know of what happened to them once I had left or how they feel about the subject. Many came and got what they wanted from the subject, felt better and went on their way which is really how it should be. I don't think it is fair for anyone here to superimpose their gains or their upsets onto others. It's very hard not to for many people on both sides of the fence.

The majority of ex-scientologists I have met don't post to the internet.
The majority of Freezoners I have met do not post to the net or have anything to do with these forums. I think it would be unfair to attack a group like Ron's Org on the back of the postings from Teril or LR when Teril probably participates in absolutely zero of that groups activities.

Teril elected himself commuications leader, rounded up all the contact details of people around the planet with the offer of procurring PCs. Teril is on all the communication lines. I bet you Teril will never give you a stat from a UK group such as WDAH (well done auditing hours) or BIS (Bodies in the shop) because he has thoroughly ARC_Xen the scene.

because their viewpoint is critical. You know, I always feel like people should be able to choose who they associate with, who they allow over their doorsteps. Sometimes I get a feeling about someone which is not nice and choose not to associate with them. The FZ seems to have an open door policy. Really the problem is is that no one is actually willing to get a grip on Teril in the FZ despite him being exposed here on this forum.

The FZ here are an easy target when there isn't a real Church Scientologist around to target. I have now decided to only go after or break away from people, individuals who have caused myself actual harm or upset and not go after the whole lot.

OK Vittorio, thank you for that and I have taken all your points and feel you have totally redemed yourself IMO. What you say is correct, he has shown himself for what he is, and I am sure that if a new person came to this board and given enough time to catch up, they would see Terril's blatant rudeness and puffed up ego in the extreme. I understand he is not the whole 'voice' of the freezone, however it does give a very bad impression of a group that most exes would be suspicious of anyway. Thank you for such an honest posting.

 

[Zinjifar]

Look at it from another viewpoint, Pixiegal. A newbie or lurker arrives and thinks the tech is great, but hates the CofS and can't understand why they screw the tech up so much. They come here looking for answers and at every turn they come across critics who trash Hubbard's tech on nearly every thread!

Paul

They come across them co-existing in something like harmony with still-deluded brainwashees.

Now, thatsa good thang.

Zinj

 

[Dulloldfart]

They come across them co-existing in something like harmony with still-deluded brainwashees.

Now, thatsa good thang.

Zinj

Hey Zinji,

Yes, it is.

Paul

 

[Div6]

Part of what drew me to ESMB was the freedom to communicate, not just about the abuses, but about the tech, its applications, mis-applications, sources and history. I have found this valuable in increasing my understanding of this phenomenon called "Scientology".

I think that is an important part of this board, for several reasons. The main one is that in the CoS people are taught that "Suppressive Persons" run "can't haves" as their control mechanism. If people that are still on lines, or in doubt and are lurking here see the wealth of tech possibilities that exist outside the church, then I think it makes it easier to admit to the madness of how it is currently being altered, changed and abused within the "cos". And that can be a big step "out". Further, there are vacuums of understanding concerning parts of the tech that people continually ask about, ie: Introspection Rundown, E-Meters, etc. I think its important to be able to answer those questions.

Part of the current brou ha ha I believe has to do with one person's prediliction to post one liners that "promote" the freezone. Often these are non-sequiter to the thread, and do not enhance the thread. I have cringed myself when seeing some of these, and I DO object to them when they are not relevant to the thread or topic. There is quite a bit of board space already assigned to both the FZ and the "Independent Field". We also continue to have the presence of Alan, who, while tirelessly answering most all questions and comers, runs his own group. BUT, apart from his comments about his recent research, when asked, I have never seen him "promote" his group.

Its a touchy subject. Some people totally reject LRH and "the tech". Others find some of it of use, etc. I think if you are actively participating in a thread, and mention it in a context that is relevant, its probably ok. If you just do "drive by" postings that inject it into a thread in a non-sequiter fashion, then that is probably not ok.


And as an aside, in the 50's LRH offered Dianetics as an alternative to some rather brutal practices in the "mental healing" field. I give him kudos for "sticking it to the man" at that point. Just my opinion.

 

[Pixie]

Well no not really.

Bottom line is that it has been shown in abundance from OG research, well researched and proven, referenced books, etc etc that 'all' or most all of scientology or dianetics comes from a different source. So, why keep the CON alive by giving a sociopath the credit and funds? Why support a cause that breaks up families, controls and tortures people? You may not be giving any more money but you saying 'the tech worked for you' is supporting the con ! Why not see where this tech came from, read THAT and say -hey that helped me or that works for me....steer people AWAY from a cult and into CRITICAL THINKING.

We all liked the simple outline, labelling, paradigm hubbard put all these ageless concepts and wisdom into-it made it easier to get in one place....only hello.....he changed it to create a cult, he changed it to keep you introverted, he changed it to control your mind, he changed it to make you a person who has to fit all that happens to you in life into a neat box/book that you can just flip to for an answer...WHAT A FREAKIN TRAP!

well....here is this book, this religion who put all the answers in books FOR US and so I will accept him as 'source'. That's what they insist upon--they have told me so! YOU MUST ACCEPT LRH AS SOURCE OR YOU ARE AN SP. So, you decide that because LRH did all the research himself so he says, you dont have to think anymore! HE TOLD US that he read it all and did it all so we dont have to bother to look ourselves !... and he put it together for US because he loves us and wants man to to be clear! So, it must be true .....so I dont have to go research myself and hey it's ok if I give him credit and treat his church and him as a deity....practically.

Cmon guys, give me a break here. LRH is NOT SOURCE, SCN IS NOT SOURCE, DN IS NOT SOURCE! Stop keeping the con alive.

Any temporary successes** I had in scn could have been gotten in so many other ways, without the damaging mind control, introversion, cult think, invalidation, and without me giving money to a false church supporting a crazy leader bent on world domination and torturing it's members.

So I say, take your wins.

Then confront the fact that scn and dn basics have been around for a lot longer than LRonn was, and there is much in society that offers long term relief and help without indoctrination and highway robbery.

I just dont see how folks want to keep saying the tech works knowing the facts that are right in front of our faces....I will never get it!

This is excellent Boldgirl, really excellent. Extremely well written, and straight to the heart of the whole point.

 

[Boldgirl]

Nuts! - I recall the moment I switched from considering myself supresssive.. More than 10 years ago now.. The situation arose because I found an old (almost) girlfriend of mine, who's still in the cult.

And so she wanted me to read the ethics book.. And do my A to E's and all that.. Well, I didn't think so, but was flattered no end.

I read the book however.

I got 'emotional' to the brink of crying when I read the Bolivar policy. Here was this insane idea that we needed to be at war with the rest of humanity. The careful explanations why war doctrine and strife was the way of scientology. And Hubbard trying to sell me the idea that this shit was 'romantic' and desireable... There's even an obvious suggestion that murder is acceptable in that policy.. Tigers who survive.. The Black Panther mechanism..

My GF, and my wife and kids, disconnected for more than a decade, caught inside that insane mindbender circus... I just realized the enormity then... Yes I got to be quite emotional..

But I realized then that Hubbard was stark raving mad. Which probably meant that I was ok!

I then got onto the internet. First time I entered the word 'Scientology' into a search engine. Couple of days later I specifically went for OTIII. There was a post on ARS with a link that didn't work.

My fear of dying from phneumonia went away as I read about DC8's and all those poor people being thrown into volcanoes from thousands of feet in the air. And then, to add mayhem to negligence, being bloown up with hydrogen bombs.. And then, to add insult to both mayhem and negligence, being caught as spirits on special sticky spirit flypaper and forced to watch bad movies for days on end! (Movies as bad as Battlefield Earth I fear!)

wow,I never thought of that regarding the bolivar story and the ideas of the war against humanity etc....I am going to reread it. thanks.

I am sorry to hear that you suffered with disconnection like that....

 

[Pixie]

Then they can make their own minds up.

Acertainratio, some people have just forgotten exactly how to do that!! They cannot remember how to do that!! And it is with them that my own concerns ly. It's just not that simple, if I had viewed some of the things the freezone had written on non freezone threads the day I realized it was a con, I'd have jumped straight in, we must understand the full effects of the mind bending that was taken place within us all. Some of us are still raw, lost, and still trying to find some balance, the full affects are not talked about in detail as far as I can tell yet, but this too needs to be discussed, so presuming it's possible to 'make up your own mind' is not as easy for some as it may be for others.

 

[Leon]

I like the board as it has been and is and as I hope it will long continue.

I think Pierre's post was intended not to be him bragging about what he could do in 20 minutes (any half decent auditor could do that) as it was to show what a bunch of incompetent dildoheads the Flag mecca of perfection is.

But hey, how do you like my avatar?? I hope it loads - I just put it up. The top of the head is mine, the budgie is Azul.

 

[Leon]

Whaaaa it didn't load. I'll have to try again.

 

[Pixie]

How about a 10% FSM Commission?

Paul

... as long as I get my 60% for my wonderful sexy voice DOF!

 

[Leon]

Trying again

 

[Leon]

Ah Ha ! !