ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Vinaire]

What happened, exactly?

What threads concern you, and why?

What types of concerns have others PMed you about?

Let's hear it.

I think there will always be those who are dissatisfied with the most beautiful thing. There will always be those who want to create trouble for whatever reason. There will always be those who want to destroy.

We shall only go astray when we start giving undue attention to them.

Let ESMB be what it has always been.

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[SchwimmelPuckel]

Schwimmy - have I told you lately how much I respect your views and love your common sense answers sprinkled with humour? It's been too hard to keep up with individual posts in this thread, so this is a blanket thankyou!

Why thank you!

I love stuff like this.. I don't even care if I become conceited!

 

[Vinaire]

What a monster topic this is! 56 pages, and happening so fuckin' fast that answers relay 3 pages back.

I wonder what the underlying reason is.. For the 'charge', for want of a better word.

Disrespect... I think it is that... I don't mean protesting the rules like Emma is spanking Alanzo for atm.

I mean more like Cat's Squirrel was kicking Mick Wenlocks ass for back on page 49. (They excelled both! )

Now, I'm guilty as sin too!

I think that believing in anything Hubbard or CoS is deluded. Evidence of being hypnotized, mesmerized and mindcontrolled. I consider it dangerous even. For the people themselves, and ultimatly for all humanity. Therefore those people need to 'wake up' and smell the cofee! - I'm on a moral grassy knoll about this.

This is not 'respectful' of these peoples beliefs. So be it!

But I didn't start it! - Hubbard did! - The above admission of mine is a reconstruct of the mindset inside the Sinister Cult of Scientology. It was precisely that 'disrespect' that the cult levelled at me while I put up with it. The cult has this disrespect for all humanity, or WOG's as they are so endearingly labelled. The WOG's are deluded, hypnotized and blithely unaware. Technically they're 'abberees', a techincal and thus more polite term for insane... Oh: "We're here to help them wake up!"

Hmm.. I don't se how this particular kind of 'disrespect' can be avoided. It can be unsaid...

I think that believing in anything is deluded... whether it is Scientology, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism... or anything one can think of.

Believing to me is putting my "skill to observe" on the shelf.

No, I want to observe for myself... I want to think for myself... I want to to recognize something for what it is on my own terms... I want to recognize a Scientologist as a Scientologist... a Freezoner as a Freezoner... an idiot as an idiot... a mechanical person as a mechanical person... a spiritual person as a spiritual person... a troublemaker as a troublemaker...

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[SchwimmelPuckel]

You are knitpicking the concept of 'belief' Vin! - But we have to consider that scientologists 'know!' - Hubbard educated us in converting 'belief' into 'knowing' by reassigning significance while confronting mrs. Pattycakes dedicated stare.

But you are right of course!

 

[acertainratio]

As I said in an earlier post, Scientology is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck people totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

People who have suffered this kind of damage have a strong desire to prevent other people going through the same trauma.

With the best will in the world, I don't see how people who have been through that hell can accept the idea that Scn outside the Cof$ is all fine and shiny.

I'm a big advocate of free speech, so I'm not suggesting that anyone should be silenced.

I have to be honest and say that my foremost inclination is to support people who have been hurt by the cult.

It would be good if the FZ'ers on this board would give some deep thought to the damage done by the subject that they hold so dearly, and the fact that many of the people here suffered that damage. Most of them I think, are here to work on their recovery, and help others doing the same.

So FZ'ers, please think about what you can do to make your presence here congruent with the fact that this is an ex - scientologists board.

Here's the big question:

If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here, and what can you contribute?

None of these are trick questions, and I'm not asking so that I can duff you up when you answer.

As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

Those who are here to help themselves recover, and help others recover deserve a lot of consideration, in my view.

But as I say, I'm not into attacking free speech, and I'm not into expelling people, so I would like to hear something from you about how you can take part in debate on an ex - scientologists forum without undermining the basic purpose of the board or undermining the recovery of people who've been hurt by the subject that you hold dear.

 

[Vinaire]

As I said in an earlier post, Scientology is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck people totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

People who have suffered this kind of damage have a strong desire to prevent other people going through the same trauma.

With the best will in the world, I don't see how people who have been through that hell can accept the idea that Scn outside the Cof$ is all fine and shiny.

I'm a big advocate of free speech, so I'm not suggesting that anyone should be silenced.

I have to be honest and say that my foremost inclination is to support people who have been hurt by the cult.

It would be good if the FZ'ers on this board would give some deep thought to the damage done by the subject that they hold so dearly, and the fact that many of the people here suffered that damage. Most of them I think, are here to work on their recovery, and help others doing the same.

So FZ'ers, please think about what you can do to make your presence here congruent with the fact that this is an ex - scientologists board.

Here's the big question:

If you are not here to recruit people and sing the praises of Scientology, why are you here, and what can you contribute?

None of these are trick questions, and I'm not asking so that I can duff you up when you answer.

As we know, there are plenty of FZ and independent boards; so why do you like to come here?

Those who are here to help themselves recover, and help others recover deserve a lot of consideration, in my view.

But as I say, I'm not into attacking free speech, and I'm not into expelling people, so I would like to hear something from you about how you can take part in debate on an ex - scientologists forum without undermining the basic purpose of the board or undermining the recovery of people who've been hurt by the subject that you hold dear.

It is the self that is dark and dangerous...

More later.

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[Vinaire]

Just like an identity, no belief is bad until one is stuck in it.

It is "stuckness" that is bad, and not the identity or the belief.

.

 

[acertainratio]

Just like an identity, no belief is bad until one is stuck in it.

It is "stuckness" that is bad, and not the identity or the belief.

.

You'd need to say a lot more for me to have a chance of understanding your point.

 

[Free to shine]

You'd need to say a lot more for me to have a chance of understanding your point.

Oh don't get him started!

 

[Vinaire]

As I said in an earlier post, Scientology is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck people totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

...

As I have indicated many times, Man is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck everything totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

Ahhh! Blaming is so easy... tomes may be written on this particular activity of man...

What is not dark and dangerous?

Even love can be made into something "dark and dangerous." That is what Christianity did quite beautifully in the Dark Ages.

Have you thought of a career in marketing?

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[Cat's Squirrel]

I think that believing in anything is deluded... whether it is Scientology, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism... or anything one can think of.

Believing to me is putting my "skill to observe" on the shelf.

No, I want to observe for myself... I want to think for myself... I want to to recognize something for what it is on my own terms... I want to recognize a Scientologist as a Scientologist... a Freezoner as a Freezoner... an idiot as an idiot... a mechanical person as a mechanical person... a spiritual person as a spiritual person... a troublemaker as a troublemaker...

Wernher Erhard (the founder of EST) had a cool saying about this, "The truth believed is a lie."

Beliefs aren't addressed directly in Scn as far as I know, but there is one spiritual technology that does address them; Harry Palmer's "Avatar".

It's a lot of money though. I've had gains from using Byron Katie's "The Work" for handling unwanted beliefs, which is a lot cheaper than Avatar because it's all in her book, "Loving What Is" and involves no preliminaries (you have to do two other parts of the Avatar course first before you get to belief discreation).

See, I'm advertising

 

[Alanzo]

...

 

[ScudMuffin]

From an Anon POV keep an eye on the FZ. From what I can see, many of them "worship" the tech in a pure form, believing Rons word to be gospel truth. Slight problem with this, Ron put out the fair game policy and combined with a fundamentalist view of the tech/Rons word that could mean killing the beast but leaving the world open to it's bastard child.

Take out the fundamentalist interpretation aspects and you have something more manageable but unfortunately you have to get the different interpretation points across.

Recently I have had reason to question the easy going stance on ESMB to the Freezone.

I have read certain threads that concern me, have received a number of PMs from concerned members and visited a FZ forum and recieved an interesting "welcome".

Originally I decided that FZers were welcome here because fundamentally they are Ex Scientologists. Now I have some reasons to be concerned about this apparent "affiliation" with the FZ and a perception that ESMB is a recruiting ground for and/or a free advertising venue to a larger audience for the FZ.

I haven't made any decision regarding this as yet and I'm looking for some feedback. Please don't get hysterical about this. I'm really after some thought out responses.

I want to know what you all think.

 

[Vinaire]

...

I enjoyed that very much... silence and stillness.

.

 

[Vinaire]

From an Anon POV keep an eye on the FZ. From what I can see, many of them "worship" the tech in a pure form, believing Rons word to be gospel truth. Slight problem with this, Ron put out the fair game policy and combined with a fundamentalist view of the tech/Rons word that could mean killing the beast but leaving the world open to it's bastard child.

Take out the fundamentalist interpretation aspects and you have something more manageable but unfortunately you have to get the different interpretation points across.

As I said before, "Stuck beliefs are dark and dangerous."

It is the failure to be alert and re-examine that is the liability.

.

 

[acertainratio]

As I have indicated many times, Man is a dark and dangerous thing with the potential to wreck everything totally - physically, mentally, and socially.

Ahhh! Blaming is so easy... tomes may be written on this particular activity of man...

What is not dark and dangerous?

Even love can be made into something "dark and dangerous." That is what Christianity did quite beautifully in the Dark Ages.

Have you thought of a career in marketing?

.

Have a nice day in all your darkness.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Is that so? Care to enlighten us further?



You must have seen different fights than I have, or had different fights than I've been in.

There is no serious comparison between that and auditing.

How would you know if you have never experienced it? Cultic mentality at its very best.

Sorry, bald statements do not arguments make.

wanna try that again? I do suppose you were trying to be ironic.

Damn right. You're on a roll here, aren't you? Yet another bald statement with no supporting data.

LOL.

OT I agree about. Clears; by Pilot's definition of "able to confront the force in mental image pictures", I believe they do exist.

aha so Hubbard got it wrong then? Interesting. If the very basis of his "research is a crock - and you turning to "the pilot" and HIS definition of what a clear is to try and make it work shows that you obviously do think its a crock - then what is the point of it all? No clears? No Dianetics? Never happened.

OK, I'll get serious for a moment.

If that was all that happened, you'd have a point. But you're also digging out things about yourself previously unknown even to yourself (or at least things you haven't known for a long time), and making connections between those and other known parts of yourself. It's called "SCIentology" (from "scio") for a reason.

Yeah its called that because HUbbard thought it made his dreck sound like it meant something. You seem to forget that it was made up by Hubbard from a similar word from Nordenholz. You cn assign it all the meaning you wish - doesn't make it worthwhile.

Also, if you don't think blowing charge is a useful index of efficacy in auditing.counselling etc., would you care to suggest an alternative and better one?

Hmm - how about - cures? How about -person no longer needs the subject? How about anything other than some bogus off the cuff piece of rubbish?

Just as well, because you're very light on either arguments or data here.

I'm not trying to be "heavy". I realize the fact that you, as a true believer, are not going to understand or even hear anything I say. You are convinced that this crap has some meaning for you and that it is "workable" despite the obvious fact that 80% of people who try it find it to be rubbish. You will explain that away to yourself just like you have explained away the fact that Hubbard's definition of Clear is total crap - and then you sieze on the ramblings of an idiot called The Pilot as somehow validating the whole thing and then claim that it all works? Wow with such stunning logic at your command I don't think anything like facts or data are going to come close for you.

you have conceded that OT is rubbish and that Hubbard's clear doesn't exist. Strikes me you have pretty much written the whole thing off.

Yeah, it does. That statement says a lot about you too - the intentional vagueness of your sneer was a conscious or unconscious attempt to introvert me.

well I'm an SP what did you expect? LOL

Not taking the bait, sorry.

you already took Hubbard's bait, hook line and sinker. You are so full of that I doubt that any more chum could fit.

 

[Alan]

Your so cruel Mick!

 

[Alanzo]

I would say it's pretty disrespectful to say that you don't give a damn about someone's rules, that you'll break them again, any time you damn well feel like it.

Yes, it is.

I'm sorry.

I frequently get seized and carried away by ideals of free speech and total world domination.

Obviously.

 

[Vinaire]

Have a nice day in all your darkness.

Darkness comes from shame, blame and regret.

Get over it. Why be stuck?

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