Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox
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Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
If ya had a yelling "senior" when you were on staff
You could go- hey, no case on post! You gots HE&R!!
And it would totally make him knock it off! Oh wait, no, it wouldn't.
You could go- hey, no case on post! You gots HE&R!!
And it would totally make him knock it off! Oh wait, no, it wouldn't.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
And, remember, guys, there's the "no backflash" thingie, too.
Gadfly
Crusader
I didn't say it was written in policy, I said that it was expected.
Were you ever in the Sea Org?
Debbie Cook could rip her juniors a new asshole with her yelling and mocked up anger.
I have seen juniors being crushed to tears with the yelling, make wrong and invalidation aimed at them by their seniors.
But I am sure there are policies that encourage such a thing. Let me look quickly and see if I can locate one. Here we go.
From HCOPL 4 October 1968 ETHICS PRESENCE
As an executive you get compliance because you have Ethics Presence and persistence and can get mad.
Against non-compliance you add ferocity with the aim of continuing the comm line.
Wrath is effective but used in moderation and only in moments of urgency.
I am sure there are other references - I am sure some Flag Orders and Base Orders excuse it even more.
The word "compliance" is very common in Scientology. It is all about "following orders", and "meeting the target". The words "power" and "force" are also mentioned in the above HCOPL.
Whatever it takes to "get 'er done" is fine and even wanted in Scientology. If it gets the stats up - it is fine. And, sending a few staff into tears or tantrums is meaningless to them. Anyway, crying is just some "low-toned dramatization" . . . .
One needs to understand one more thing here. In Scientology EVERYDAY is an EMERGENCY! There is URGENCY everyday in every Scientology org across the planet. So, don't expect these moments of wrath to be rare - they are very common.
Scientology executives in Class IV orgs get MANY phone calls every day from their seniors at the corresponding FOLO or CLO, and these phone calls are always and only about DEMAND FOR PRODUCTS. The high pressure and force NEVER let up in Scientology. That is one of the main reasons why it even continues to exist at all. Without that constant demand and pressure it would have folded up and died a long time ago.
Anonycat
Crusader
I didn't say it was written in policy, I said that it was expected.
Were you ever in the Sea Org?
Debbie Cook could rip her juniors a new asshole with her yelling and mocked up anger.
I have seen juniors being crushed to tears with the yelling, make wrong and invalidation aimed at them by their seniors.
But I am sure there are policies that encourage such a thing. Let me look quickly and see if I can locate one. Here we go.
From HCOPL 4 October 1968 ETHICS PRESENCE
As an executive you get compliance because you have Ethics Presence and persistence and can get mad.
Against non-compliance you add ferocity with the aim of continuing the comm line.
Wrath is effective but used in moderation and only in moments of urgency.
I am sure there are other references - I am sure some Flag Orders and Base Orders excuse it even more.
The word "compliance" is very common in Scientology. It is all about "following orders", and "meeting the target". The words "power" and "force" are also mentioned in the above HCOPL.
Whatever it takes to "get 'er done" is fine and even wanted in Scientology. If it gets the stats up - it is fine. And, sending a few staff into tears or tantrums is meaningless to them.
So true, after looking at the ethics and other policies, it's more than clear that everyone goes into the meat grinder in this low-overhead con.
Gadfly
Crusader
So true, after looking at the ethics and other policies, it's more than clear that everyone goes into the meat grinder in this low-overhead con.
Man, you can really see Hubbard's true nature in this issue.
Think about this and what sort of person states something like this:
They are declared Enemies of mankind, the planet and all life.
Even Hubbard apparently realized that he needed to soften up a little bit or be seen as the total nut-job that he was.
Who accepts this sort of stupid shit?
Apparently some folks in the Sea Org did and still do!
That statement is so tied in with the propaganda that Scientology is Man's ONLY HOPE. Scientology is the planet's ONLY HOPE. And, let's stretch it on out to the 5th dynamic folks - Scientology is all life's ONLY HOPE. THAT is the mindless belief that true-believing Scientologists accept and promote. They have to or they couldn't think with and make sense of such complete nonsense.
Back before the Internet, the Church of Scientology could hide its nasty schemes from even its own staff and public. It was truly difficult to know the truth back then, because Scientology was and still is so good at creating "mock-ups" and "illusions" that substitute for reality. But now, with the Internet, you have to really WANT to remain in ignorance about the facts of Hubbard and Scientology so as to keep believing the lies and fictions that one is told.
This is NOT OK !!!!
Gold Meritorious Patron
Here's some mass on what everyone's talking about.
The Captain of the FSO now is Harvey Jacques. That's the same post Debbie Cook held before that she's so well known for.
Earlier and possibly amongst other posts he was the Dir Reg FSO (one of the penultimate posts for pressure in all of Scientology). Before that he headed up all the Planetary dissem. regging lines at the FSO - libraries, TWTH and more).
One day in 1988 (it could have been any day in 1988 really) at our product conference (a pack of salesmen trying to figure out how to get the public on lines at the FSO to donate individually huge sumes of $ to clear the planet), he decided enough was enough and went ballistic. The rant included all the regular invectives of case on post, DBS, he&r, ci, ending up with him red faced, ready to blow a gasket, aneurism inducing vein popping and the like and this statement: "if you guys don't get $150,000.00 closed by dinner time, there's going to be blood on the walls!"
I'd just closed a nice dono before lunch, so I was sitting pretty and didn't scramble out the door with the pack of Jackles ready for war. He switched gears, looked at me and asked, "Think that'll work?".
I went down to the Hourglass and got us tea and smokes. For a half hour or so I basked in the light of one of the most intense people in the universe - getting wasted as fast a possible on caffeine and Marlboro reds.
A half hour later and fully stoked I was ready to take my next bite out of the big apple.
His parting words were: "I can't count on them, so you better fucking get it done yourself."
Ah, the fleating pleasures of a Scientology registrar!
The Captain of the FSO now is Harvey Jacques. That's the same post Debbie Cook held before that she's so well known for.
Earlier and possibly amongst other posts he was the Dir Reg FSO (one of the penultimate posts for pressure in all of Scientology). Before that he headed up all the Planetary dissem. regging lines at the FSO - libraries, TWTH and more).
One day in 1988 (it could have been any day in 1988 really) at our product conference (a pack of salesmen trying to figure out how to get the public on lines at the FSO to donate individually huge sumes of $ to clear the planet), he decided enough was enough and went ballistic. The rant included all the regular invectives of case on post, DBS, he&r, ci, ending up with him red faced, ready to blow a gasket, aneurism inducing vein popping and the like and this statement: "if you guys don't get $150,000.00 closed by dinner time, there's going to be blood on the walls!"
I'd just closed a nice dono before lunch, so I was sitting pretty and didn't scramble out the door with the pack of Jackles ready for war. He switched gears, looked at me and asked, "Think that'll work?".
I went down to the Hourglass and got us tea and smokes. For a half hour or so I basked in the light of one of the most intense people in the universe - getting wasted as fast a possible on caffeine and Marlboro reds.
A half hour later and fully stoked I was ready to take my next bite out of the big apple.
His parting words were: "I can't count on them, so you better fucking get it done yourself."
Ah, the fleating pleasures of a Scientology registrar!
Anonycat
Crusader
Man, you can really see Hubbard's true nature in this issue.
Think about this and what sort of person states something like this:
They are declared Enemies of mankind, the planet and all life.
Even Hubbard apparently realized that he needed to soften up a little bit or be seen as the total nut-job that he was.
Who accepts this sort of stupid shit?
Apparently some folks in the Sea Org did and still do!
That statement is so tied in with the propaganda that Scientology is Man's ONLY HOPE. Scientology is the planet's ONLY HOPE. And, let's stretch it on out to the 5th dynamic folks - Scientology is all life's ONLY HOPE. THAT is the mindless belief that true-believing Scientologists accept and promote. They have to or they couldn't think with and make sense of such complete nonsense.
Back before the Internet, the Church of Scientology could hide its nasty schemes from even its own staff and public. It was truly difficult to know the truth back then, because Scientology was and still is so good at creating "mock-ups" and "illusions" that substitute for reality. But now, with the Internet, you have to really WANT to remain in ignorance about the facts of Hubbard and Scientology so as to keep believing the lies and fictions that one is told.
This may be the only R2-45 order from Hubbard to be presented as evidence. Ron directly ordered the Sea Org to murder these 12 people he listed. Aside from the insanity of saying it's false information, yet they are secret documents, it only gets more insane. And that old chestnut of it being so "advanced" it's dangerous in the wrong hands.
Strip them of all they have sacrificed for within the cult, Fair Game them to destroy their lives, their family life, their career, and shoot them with a gun, not necessarily in that order.
still here
Patron with Honors
So many years so little change....
Harvey only has two methods in his toolbox, both for life and his post..
1) To bully, rant and threaten
2) To trust no-one and have to do everything himself.
The results of this are, no-one likes or trusts him, (I never knew him to have a real friend - for long)
He is stressed to death and does not always succeed. Deep down he is a very sad, frightened little man..
I am amazed that he is still alive and has not had a heart attack.....
(and this is first time I have felt even a touch of sympathy for him in 33 years....)
It's OK though - it has gone now..
Still
Harvey only has two methods in his toolbox, both for life and his post..
1) To bully, rant and threaten
2) To trust no-one and have to do everything himself.
The results of this are, no-one likes or trusts him, (I never knew him to have a real friend - for long)
He is stressed to death and does not always succeed. Deep down he is a very sad, frightened little man..
I am amazed that he is still alive and has not had a heart attack.....
(and this is first time I have felt even a touch of sympathy for him in 33 years....)
It's OK though - it has gone now..
Still
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Gadfly
Crusader
I left the FSO in about 1985, having worked in the FSC INT area.
So, you must have been up there with Sonja (Caccavella), Kitty G. and Paul Miller, huh?
Paul Miller could make more money ASLEEP than most other regges!
The pressure was HEAVY on those money GI lines.
Were you there in 1983-85? I am just curious if I knew you.
PM me if you were.
Ah, you worked up in the mezzanine. Remember when D. Bloomberg blew to LA to be with his wife Darnelle? Miss Cabbage put him in ASI to reg.
degraded being
Sponsor
:
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It might be assumed that words have fairly exact meanings in the scientology cult.
I think that they probably don't always have such exact meanings though.
Of course many cult words do have exact meanings. But with (HUMAN) language being what it is, and Hubbard being a lying, double-talking manipulator, I think that scientology language is nuanced more than some of us might have realised when we were in. It was always there in green on white, or red on white.....supposedly...and it was always supposed to be as clear as black and white -so practical and workable, for a cult- but it wasn't.
:
It might be assumed that words have fairly exact meanings in the scientology cult.
I think that they probably don't always have such exact meanings though.
Of course many cult words do have exact meanings. But with (HUMAN) language being what it is, and Hubbard being a lying, double-talking manipulator, I think that scientology language is nuanced more than some of us might have realised when we were in. It was always there in green on white, or red on white.....supposedly...and it was always supposed to be as clear as black and white -so practical and workable, for a cult- but it wasn't.
DB I've been meaning to ask you for a while. What do the colons mean?
Jquepublic
Silver Meritorious Patron
Gadfly mentioned earlier on that he had dubbed in some definitions/associations in order to make sense out of the term HE & R and it got me thinking...I think we did a lot of that. I am sure that I did, anyway. I wanted to trust Hubbard and I wanted to believe he was right, so if I read something that made no sense or seemed to point to a lack of empathy on his part, such as the definition we've been dissecting, then I would find things to associate with it so that it would make sense. I gave things my own context in order to soften or rationalize their existence. :confused2:
Purple Rain
Crusader
Agreed.
Yes. The Scientology term for inappropriate emotional responses is misemotion.
Your re-write was good - but "unwanted upset" might be a better translation than "anger". If you went into a deep depression - even catatonic - after having an unwanted abortion say, that would also be HE&R - "Knock it off". Sigh. Also shudder. Not good memories associated with the term HE&R for me. It's kind of like accusing the person of hysteria, you know. An over the top emotional reaction verging on the neurotic.
An ex-Scientologist could translate that sentence because nobody ever accuses one of NOT having HE&R. Lol! It's always used as a "make wrong" - i.e. to make somebody feel that they are doing something wrong or behaving badly in some fashion.
No, it's not just about your job. It's about stifling the natural protest response or grief and outrage associated with a particular injustice or oppression. It's about producing sheep that will acquiesce to either pasture or slaughterhouse without putting up a fight. Just as Brian used it outside of a "job" context, so a husband might tell you he could "do without the HE&R" during a fight, for instance, or a person might complain about all the HE&R they're getting from their family for joining the Sea Org.
It's kind of any upset. You're allowed to go "Wheeeee!! Hooray! I always knew she was a suppressive little bitch!" if ordered to disconnect from your spouse or child, even though that is "misemotional" (i.e. non sequitur to the situation; emotionally inappropriate) because it is not contrary to the specific "survival goal" being inflicted on you. Diana Hubbard enjoying the overboardings was also not HE&R.
Basically the woman crying because her kid was locked in a chain locker would be displaying HE&R; the wife and children upset that the father was getting his face shredded pushing a peanut round the deck would have been guilty of HE&R; Jenna Miscavige standing on the window ledge of the HGB because they were forcibly separating her from the man she loved was reacting with all that bothersome counter-survival human emotion and dramatising a most grossly out-ethics public display of HE&R - lol! I love that she had the guts to do that! It was so brilliant, and so validating of the love she had for her man, and the priority she gave him in her life. Quite unusual for a Sea Org member to choose that way.
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Purple Rain
Crusader
Well, there is the cult and the culture. Both were modeled on Hubbard.
Gadfly
Crusader
YES!!!!!
I have talked about this in bits and pieces, and this is an area that I need to sit down one day and really try to spell it all out.
The subject is arranged in a way where the reader is tricked into bringing what are often lame and even lifeless ideas to life.
Without YOUR own contribution of personal ideas and associations, often, it could not make any sense at all.
It is as if the subject materials were a vampire, and they sucked the life out of YOU so that THEY might live.
Often you MUST make sense of nonsense, and you do so within your own world of meanings, associations and significance.
I am quite sure that people have very different ideas about many Scientology ideas, but they never discover this because NOBODY EVER TALKS ABOUT SUCH THINGS. The only time you would talk about ARC, the reactive mind, or any other Scientology concept with another would be in an auditing session or on a meter with a word clearer. Or maybe with a twin on course. And, NO MATTER WHAT YOU ACCEPT IT TO MEAN, as long as you are VGIs, happy, and you AGREE and play along, then all is fine. The final aim is not understanding, but that you are happy and willing to play along.
There might be 50 people in an org having drastically different notions of what it means to "clear the planet", but they never will discover this because they never compare notes, and they never discuss it openly or critically. So when they all stand up and cheer to some event speaker who asserts, "we ARE clearing this planet NOW", they probably each envision quite different images of what that means.
This is "unity in delusion" (even though the specifics and details of the individual delusions might vary).
But Hubbard didn't care. He didn't care about relaying truth or ideas, he only wanted to get the hamsters running fast on his wheel of money and power.
Where else can you find a subject or system or field where each person's understanding is ONLY discussed with a few others, in secret, in privacy, in a room with an E-meter? I remember hearing people say the stupidest crap while on a meter, and have their needles float. As long as they go off and help Scientology, there was no real concern for ensuring that they had "accurate understanding".
Many of the ideas in Scientology are abstract and general ideas with nothing that can be observed to verify or validate them. Ideas like "salvage this sector", "reverse the dwindling spiral", "clear", "OT", "golden age" and so forth. Any person MUST fill in the blanks with his or her own specifics, which usually come directly from the imagination. These terms are often metaphors, that describe no actual thing anywhere, yet these people imagine that they are thinking and talking about "actual real things". It is a hoot to observe.
Hubbard was a master at creating illusions that others could see. But, it had nothing to do with advanced OT abilities, and depended only on TRICKERY and DECEPTION. Hubbard gets people to perceive and even experience realities that don't exist. You have to give the man credit where credit is due!
One would have had to know quite a bit about people and the human mind to do what Hubbard did. I would have preferred that he used what he knew to truly help others, rather than to just pretend that he was helping others while instead actually enriching himself with money, power, admiration and attention.
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Enthetan
Master of Disaster
Well thank you, Idle. Great name by the way.
I agree the Church is a corrupt organization. And feel free to agree with anyone's opinion on the tech that you'd like. It doesn't bother me any. But I have to admit the tech has helped me enormously with many things in life. Now, I'll be clear here, I absolutely know that Ron over- sold most of the gains of Clear and OT. I also know he was no angel. Quite the contrary. He could sell people on quite a bit. And boy did he ever.
But I judge the tech by what it does for me. And I am 100% certain that it has been very helpful. The times I really ran into trouble had nothing to do with tech. They had to do with a sickly money-motivated organization that cared for nothing but their own financial gain.
I'm done with that now, of course. And I'm keeping what I value and throwing the rest in the trash. We each have to be true to what we know. Best of luck.
If you feel that it helps you, then it helps you. As long as you are not in the grips of psychopaths who want all your money, then go for it.
degraded being
Sponsor
YES!!!!!
I have talked about this in bits and pieces, and this is an area that I need to sit down one day and really try to spell it all out.
The subject is arranged in a way where the reader is tricked into bringing what are often lame and even lifeless ideas to life.
Without YOUR own contribution of personal ideas and associations, often, it could not make any sense at all.
It is as if the subject materials were a vampire, and they sucked the life out of YOU so that THEY might live.
Often you MUST make sense of nonsense, and you do so within your own world of meanings, associations and significance.
I am quite sure that people have very different ideas about many Scientology ideas, but they never discover this because NOBODY EVER TALKS ABOUT SUCH THINGS. The only time you would talk about ARC, the reactive mind, or any other Scientology concept with another would be in an auditing session or on a meter with a word clearer. Or maybe with a twin on course. And, NO MATTER WHAT YOU ACCEPT IT TO MEAN, as long as you are VGIs, happy, and you AGREE and play along, then all is fine. The final aim is not understanding, but that you are happy and willing to play along.
There might be 50 people in an org having drastically different notions of what it means to "clear the planet", but they never will discover this because they never compare notes, and they never discuss it openly or critically. So when they all stand up and cheer to some event speaker who asserts, "we ARE clearing this planet NOW", they probably each envision quite different images of what that means.
This is "unity in delusion" (even though the specifics and details of the individual delusions might vary).
But Hubbard didn't care. He didn't care about relaying truth or ideas, he only wanted to get the hamsters running fast on his wheel of money and power.
Where else can you find a subject or system or field where each person's understanding is ONLY discussed with a few others, in secret, in privacy, in a room with an E-meter? I remember hearing people say the stupidest crap while on a meter, and have their needles float. As long as they go off and help Scientology, there was no real concern for ensuring that they had "accurate understanding".
Many of the ideas in Scientology are abstract and general ideas with nothing that can be observed to verify or validate them. Ideas like "salvage this sector", "reverse the dwindling spiral", "clear", "OT", "golden age" and so forth. Any person MUST fill in the blanks with his or her own specifics, which usually come directly from the imagination. These terms are often metaphors, that describe no actual thing anywhere, yet these people imagine that they are thinking and talking about "actual real things". It is a hoot to observe.
Hubbard was a master at creating illusions that others could see. But, it had nothing to do with advanced OT abilities, and depended only on TRICKERY and DECEPTION. Hubbard gets people to perceive and even experience realities that don't exist. You have to give the man credit where credit is due!
One would have had to know quite a bit about people and the human mind to do what Hubbard did. I would have preferred that he used what he knew to truly help others, rather than to just pretend that he was helping others while instead actually enriching himself with money, power, admiration and attention.
So in the cult we do not create/construct meaning, as normal people do, more-or less, democratically. All meaning must be arbitated, adjusted, and approved to accord with LRH's dictates. Mind Control.