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For the Rathbun "Believers"

Type4_PTS said:
It's not too late for that! :D
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Yeah it is too late. Going "OT" woke me up. The way I see it, Hubbard created the OT levels out of a subconsciously deep seeded guilt. It was his way of saying ... "wake the fuck up people, it's nothing but bullshit !!! you have been conned !!!". However I was fortunate enough to read it in Time Magazine and didn't have to get screw out of a couple hundred grand to get the message.
 
Seriously Alanzo - you really think Marty is a true believer? Sometimes I have trouble seeing through your ironic phrasing...

Marty (and others) claim that they truly do believe in the purity of hubbards "tech" and that they are, really, in it all for the Freedom for All Mankind?

If that is the case - has anyone actually asked them if they really really believed in it all - WHY DID THEY STAND BY AND WATCH ALL THIS CRAP HAPPENING?

After all, if they truly believed in it all they must have honestly believed that a) they are immortal beings who could not be truly hurt by standing up for the truth and what was right and b) that by doing nothing while Miscavige did all the things they are now criticizing him that they were condemning mankind to an eternity of pain and suffering.

And now they bitch about DM?

By their own standards they stand exposed.



Alanzo said:
Marty is in it for what every other Scientologist is in it for - nothing less than the Freedom for All Mankind.

Why you think that Marty is motivated by lesser goals than when you were a Scientologist is the real problem here - and the problem all around.

Freezoners, Ex-Scientologists, members of Anonymous, Church of Scientologists, and now "Independent Scientologists" all are motivated by their own highest, and most sacred purposes.

To assume anything else is cynical and destructive. And blind to the true nature of your fellow man.

Marty is a True Believer - just like you were.

Were you just trying to sucker people when you were a true-blue Hubbardite Scientologist? Are you just trying to sucker them now?

Come one, man. Other people live in this world, too. And they derive the same sense of purpose from their lives as you do when you put on your pants every day.

It is much more productive to work with people, and to allow them the same dignity you allow yourself, than to assign selfishness and evil everywhere you find people not of your own ideology.

Apparently, you've just traded "SPs" and "Psychs" for "Freezoners" and "Scientologists".

When will you finally grow up?

When will we all?
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Mick Wenlock said:
Seriously Alanzo - you really think Marty is a true believer? Sometimes I have trouble seeing through your ironic phrasing...

Marty (and others) claim that they truly do believe in the purity of hubbards "tech" and that they are, really, in it all for the Freedom for All Mankind?

If that is the case - has anyone actually asked them if they really really believed in it all - WHY DID THEY STAND BY AND WATCH ALL THIS CRAP HAPPENING?

After all, if they truly believed in it all they must have honestly believed that a) they are immortal beings who could not be truly hurt by standing up for the truth and what was right and b) that by doing nothing while Miscavige did all the things they are now criticizing him that they were condemning mankind to an eternity of pain and suffering.

And now they bitch about DM?

By their own standards they stand exposed.
Click to expand...

Alanzo knows it's all about bringing Freedom and Happiness to all of mankind

SO94.png
 
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn said:
Marty is in it for Marty and Marty alone, the only question that needs to be answered is whether he is flat out crazy like Bill Robertson, or if he's just trying to make some coin by working the suckers with Hubbard's con game.
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Having been in the S.O. and experiencing "close encounters of the 1st kind" with Captain Bill Robertson (named Deputy Commodore by Ron himself) I will say this....

When a Scn Devotee is "on purpose" they don't always easily reveal what they REALLY think. It is part of the chronic shore story that skillfully is used to reduce friction in everyday dealings.

It is not until they have taken reins of power and feel somewhat insulated from challenges/attacks that they are comfortable enough to proportionately REVEAL their true agenda. (see later Biblical chapters in the Book of Bill)

DM, for example, has built himself a kevlar cocoon where physically beating the elite S.O. members at Int doesn't seem (to him) to pose any kind of risk. It is that blind arrogance and sense of insulation that fells criminal chieftains like the the mafia's "Teflon Don" John Gotti. They cannot imagine mere mortals posing any liability to their powers.

So, what does Marty R have as an agenda? Pretty safe bet that he wants to "Clear The Planet" still and has no slightest compunction about doing the "Greatest Good for Greatest Number of Dynamics".

Soul-savers like Ron, Captain Bill and COB all manage their own affairs and YOUR affairs the same way. It is a war for them. You are on their battlefield. Rules of war apply. Deserters are sometimes hanged or shot in the back as they try to escape. Battlefield "casualties" are thrown into the Scientology Triage Triangle.....

If you are deemed a salvageable soul you get immediate medical aid. ("rehabilitated", briefed and regged and put back at the front line so that you may, likewise, brief and reg others).

If your "vital signs" are okay and you are deemed an active, profitable, soul saver you are left alone.

If you are deemed to be a terminally injured soul (Squirrel, DB, SP, etc) you are left to die. But, in keeping with a divinely compassionate religion, you are provided no-cost "assistance" to help expedite your blessed martyrdom. (see euthanasiaTech aka Fair Game)

Personally, I wouldn't want to be on the battlefield to receive Martyrdom Rathburn's assistance.
 
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ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn said:
Yeah it is too late. Going "OT" woke me up. The way I see it, Hubbard created the OT levels out of a subconsciously deep seeded guilt. It was his way of saying ... "wake the fuck up people, it's nothing but bullshit !!! you have been conned !!!". However I was fortunate enough to read it in Time Magazine and didn't have to get screw out of a couple hundred grand to get the message.
Click to expand...

I mean't that it is not too late to beat you over the head with a Dianetics book! :D
 
I view as suspect ANY fanatic - meaning anyone who still adheres tightly and strongly to the views expressed in KSW and related issues.

ANY person believing themselves to be "saving the world" is a potential threat to the rest of humanity. Why? Because these type of TRUE BELIEVERS are elitists who believe themselves to be superior to others due to his or her "better" understanding, "higher knowledge of truth", "firmer grasp on the REAL problems of Man and the world", and "lofty goals". Tom Cruise betrayed his own fantical elitist attitude when he went on and on about psychiatry with Matt Lauer a few years back (according to Tom, "I KNOW about it - YOU don't". "YOU are glib".). Cruise's attitude of self-importance and exaggerated self-knowledge is typical of almost ALL Church Scientologists, becase that attitude is carefully indoctrinated into each of them through KSW and similar policies. KSW instills a brutal fanaticism that is not open to any qualifications or questioning. It is absolute in its severity. It is entirely ALL or NONE. Personally, I am not at all interested in some new version of THAT!

So, if Marty wants to continue to "bring Scientology to the people's of Earth", with the same "live or die in the attempt" firm dedication and ruthless purpose as previous versions of LRH's Scientology, then count me out!

I would be only okay with a version of Scientology that was VERY low-key and VERY laid back. No heavy regging, no stats, no Thursday at 2, no brutal secret intelligence agency, no KSW, no "we have the ONLY answers", no "we are making a new and better planet", no deception, no continual boring events that are "always bigger and better than the last", no SPs, no enemies, no declares, no endless PR, no INT management, and so forth.

No endless phone calls and late-night Wednesday visits by regges and recruiters!

Basically, if you want to come in and do a course. Fine. If not, that is also equally fine.

No IAS, no super power project, no "pictures of LRH everywhere", no endless PR about how LRH was the greatest everything (writer, photographer, artist, musician, humanitarian, etc), no endless briefings and indoctrination. No more body routers and reg police at events. No more winning by overwhelm.

If you want to get some auditing, fine, then come in and get some. If not, okay. No biggie. Live and let live.

No more attitude that Scientology is Man's only and last chance for all eternity (basis of HARD SELL), and all the intensity THAT viewpoint adds to the mix. No more animosity and attacks against all views counter to some Church party-line. A Church that allows, tolerates, and GASP, even encourages dissent! What an idea; real and honest FREE SPEECH!

The problem with Scientology is that it operates as a MOVEMENT. A very close-minded and restrictive movement. It needs to get off of its high-horse, begin to take itself FAR less seriously, and knock off the "we are changing the world" bullshit. The view that "anyone critical of us, or against our lofty goals and wondrous aims MUST be EVIL" has got to GO! No more noisy investigations, no more setting up "enemies" in phony crimes, no more "TR LYING", no more overwhelming lawsuits whose entire aim is solely to STOP critics, no more Cease and Desist notices, no more Moxon & Kobrin, no more Ava Paquette, no more "legal department" of ANY sort, and no more "endless spinning of facts to suit the group's purposes" - and SHUT UP Tommy Davis!

If Marty does anything other than that, and has any intention at all to keep the "movement" aspect of Scn going, then I wish him the same slow painful ending as DM. (of course, after he does all he can to bring DM down - and as much of the Church with him as possible) But, I am not holding my breath.

I am not interested in any version of Scientology that organizes more than a few people together at one time! It is the "organizational" aspect that has always been the MAJOR problem. Without the tight central control enacted through a carefully constructed bureaucracy (based and created on extensive LRH policy), so many of the abuses could simply not exist.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to get together with friends at some local "org" or "mission", talk some aspect of LRH theory, study a bit, do TRs for a bit, however and whenever one likes, maybe listen to a tape, but WITHOUT all of the pressure, PR, endless indoctrination, "urgent Hill 10s that needed to be handled YESTERDAY", and arrogant pretentous SO members walking around in dark uniforms? Without what to me is the most unsavory and unenjoyable aspect of all Scientology? That is, without the constant, manufactured, trumped-up sense of URGENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Gadfly said:
The problem with Scientology is that it operates as a MOVEMENT. A very close-minded and restrictive movement. It needs to get off of its high-horse, begin to take itself FAR less seriously, and knock off the "we are changing the world" bullshit.

If Marty does anything other than that, and has any intention at all to keep the "movement" aspect of Scn going, then I wish him the same slow painful ending as DM. (of course, after he does all he can to bring DM down - and as much of the Church with him as possible)
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:cheers: :cheers2: I don't think Marty's that saturated with it...unless it becomes a valence-EGO thing. Like some people used to inflate after they worked with LRH personally.

1901-harley-davidson-wallpapers.jpg
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The following is from the comments on Marty's latest post. I'm copying in the comment from Mark Baker, as although we don't always see eye to eye, on this subject he hits the nail on the head. (And also the comment could quite likely be deleted soon.):D

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/flag-squirrel-organization/#comments

Mark A. Baker // October 8, 2009 at 10:41 pm | Reply

Marty, it’s good to see you taking steps to undermine the RTC’s control of the Co$. It’s also a pleasure to see new groups forming in the Independent & Freezone Scientology movements. However, for many of us who have been active for more than 20 years in continuing to provide genuine scientology in the face of Co$ opposition & squirreling, you have a major credibility problem.

The fact remains you personally were very active in suppressing the actions of many of the finest old time & founding scientologists on the planet. You were absolutely instrumental in aiding and abetting David Miscavige’s squirreling of the fundamentals of scientology tech. And your role in actively & brutally suppressing not only field scientologists but active staff members of Co$ organizations is well established.

Hence, your endorsements are considered by many individuals, especially those who retained their own integrity in the face of your active suppression, as at best suspect.

My suggestion is, focus YOUR efforts on making amends for the abuses & criminal frauds perpetuated by you & your associates in the RTC over the last 27 years. You’ve a lot to make up for in your actions. Only by new efforts can you hope to overcome the brutalities of your past.

Best wishes along your new path,

Mark A. Baker
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Response:

martyrathbun09 // October 8, 2009 at 11:38 pm | Reply

Mark,
I’m doing my damndest. I really had nothing to do with freezone or anything after the eighties fellows. As far as those earlier blokes were concerned, it is not as black and white as you infer. Many went straight to the enemies of SCIENTOLOGY AND LRH and aided and abetted attempts to drive the old man off the lines – which aided and abetted what Miscavige was doing internally to grasp power. During the eighties I was busting butt to make it safe for LRH to return; wasn’t involved in Mission Holder purges for example. Rather than motivate for another twenty years, you might want to take the advice of the great Bo Didley :’fore you cuse me, take a look at yourself.” And your cohorts for that matter. Mayo and his cronies were not ME, and I am not their why or who. If you want to continue the discussion email me: you are seriously misinformed.
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Well, I guess Mark got told :)

Zinj

PS; StarsAwait has the *best* answer to Mark B One we know well from here :)

I always knew there was summat funny bout that guy... :)

Zinj
 
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Quote by Mark A. Baker
Marty, it’s good to see you taking steps to undermine the RTC’s control of the Co$. It’s also a pleasure to see new groups forming in the Independent & Freezone Scientology movements. However, for many of us who have been active for more than 20 years in continuing to provide genuine scientology in the face of Co$ opposition & squirreling, you have a major credibility problem.
The fact remains you personally were very active in suppressing the actions of many of the finest old time & founding scientologists on the planet. You were absolutely instrumental in aiding and abetting David Miscavige’s squirreling of the fundamentals of scientology tech. And your role in actively & brutally suppressing not only field scientologists but active staff members of Co$ organizations is well established.Hence, your endorsements are considered by many individuals, especially those who retained their own integrity in the face of your active suppression, as at best suspect. My suggestion is, focus YOUR efforts on making amends for the abuses & criminal frauds perpetuated by you & your associates in the RTC over the last 27 years. You’ve a lot to make up for in your actions. Only by new efforts can you hope to overcome the brutalities of your past. Best wishes along your new path, Mark A. Baker
Click to expand...

Posted by martyrathbun:
Mark,
I’m doing my damndest. I really had nothing to do with freezone or anything after the eighties fellows. As far as those earlier blokes were concerned, it is not as black and white as you infer. Many went straight to the enemies of SCIENTOLOGY AND LRH and aided and abetted attempts to drive the old man off the lines – which aided and abetted what Miscavige was doing internally to grasp power. During the eighties I was busting butt to make it safe for LRH to return; wasn’t involved in Mission Holder purges for example. Rather than motivate for another twenty years, you might want to take the advice of the great Bo Didley :’fore you cuse me, take a look at yourself.” And your cohorts for that matter. Mayo and his cronies were not ME, and I am not their why or who. If you want to continue the discussion email me: you are seriously misinformed.
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Wow, dueling Freezoners! Coolest com cycle I have ever seen! A classic!

FREEZONER #1: "Me??? Look at YOU!"

FREEZONER #2: "No! YOU look at YOU!"

FREEZONER#1: "No! YOU look at YOUR crimes!"

FREEZONER #2: "No! YOU need to look at YOUR crimes!"

FREEZONER #1: "No! YOU are using Black Dianetics! YOU need to take responsibility for being a squirrel!"

FREEZONER #2: "No! YOU are evil! YOU need to take responsibility for being an SP!"

RON HUBBARD: (by theta com from his deep space research office) "YOU both are DBs and are not doing it right! YOU both need to pay for and retrain on How to Standardly Cave In Your Enemy Using Hubbard Attack-Introversion Tech!!!"

FREEZONER #1 and FREEZONER #2: (in unison, saluting) "YES SIR!!!"

squirrel-vs-penguin.jpg
squirrel-vs-penguin.jpg
 
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Zinjifar said:
This just keeps getting sadder.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/10/09/texas-independents-steve-hall-aka-thoughtful/
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Yeah, the pathos is surfacing nicely now that Rathbun is feeling more comfortable preaching the gospel to his newly forming congregation.

He is starting to strut and stomp a little bit now up there on the pulpit. The compassionate light of the Lord is coming thru his dedicated eyes for all mankind to share and rejoice in.

Soon he will be speaking in tongues and faith healing people....errr, I mean giving auditing commands and postulate healing people.
 
HelluvaHoax! said:
Yeah, the pathos is surfacing nicely now that Rathbun is feeling more comfortable preaching the gospel to his newly forming congregation.

He is starting to strut and stomp a little bit now up there on the pulpit. The compassionate light of the Lord is coming thru his dedicated eyes for all mankind to share and rejoice in.

Soon he will be speaking in tongues and faith healing people....errr, I mean giving auditing commands and postulate healing people.
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One man's postulate is another man's wishful thinking.

LRH loved to assume things without proof, and of course he wanted his followers to believe his writings had even more precision and validity than any form of mathematics or logic.

Referencing the origin of the word below, the idea of demanding things from others no doubt appealed to him as well.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/postulate?db=dictionary

pos⋅tu⋅late  /v. ˈpɒstʃəˌleɪt; n. ˈpɒstʃəlɪt, -ˌleɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pos-chuh-leyt; n. pos-chuh-lit, -leyt] Show IPA verb, -lat⋅ed, -lat⋅ing, noun

–verb (used with object) 1. to ask, demand, or claim.
2. to claim or assume the existence or truth of, esp. as a basis for reasoning or arguing.
3. to assume without proof, or as self-evident; take for granted.
4. Mathematics, Logic. to assume as a postulate.

–noun 5. something taken as self-evident or assumed without proof as a basis for reasoning.
6. Mathematics, Logic. a proposition that requires no proof, being self-evident, or that is for a specific purpose assumed true, and that is used in the proof of other propositions; axiom.
7. a fundamental principle.
8. a necessary condition; prerequisite.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1525–35; < L postulātum petition, thing requested, n. use of neut. of ptp. of postulāre to request, demand, akin to pōscere to request

Related forms:

pos⋅tu⋅la⋅tion, noun
pos⋅tu⋅la⋅tion⋅al, adjective


Synonyms:
3. hypothecate, presuppose, conjecture. 5. hypothesis, theory; axiom; assumption, conjecture.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
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YES, YES, YES

Gadfly said:
I view as suspect ANY fanatic - meaning anyone who still adheres tightly and strongly to the views expressed in KSW and related issues.

ANY person believing themselves to be "saving the world" is a potential threat to the rest of humanity. Why? Because these type of TRUE BELIEVERS are elitists who believe themselves to be superior to others due to his or her "better" understanding, "higher knowledge of truth", "firmer grasp on the REAL problems of Man and the wordl", and "lofty goals". Tom Cruise betrayed his own fantical elitist attitude when he went on and on about psychiatry with Matt Lauer a few years back (according to Tom, "I KNOW about it - YOU don't". "YOU are glib".). Cruise's attitude of self-importance and exaggerated self-knowledge is typical of almost ALL Church Scientologists, becase that attitude is carefully indoctrinated into each of them through KSW and similar policies. KSW instills a brutal fanaticism that is not open to any qualifications or questioning. It is absolute in its severity. It is entirely ALL or NONE. Personally, I am not at all interested in some new version of THAT!

So, if Marty wants to continue to "bring Scientology to the people's of Earth", with the same "live or die in the attempt" firm dedication and ruthless purpose as previous versions of LRH's Scientology, then count me out!

I would be only okay with a version of Scientology that was VERY low-key and VERY laid back. No heavy regging, no stats, no Thursday at 2, no brutal secret intelligence agency, no KSW, no "we have the ONLY answers", no "we are making a new and better planet", no deception, no continual boring events that are "always bigger and better than the last", no SPs, no enemies, no declares, no endless PR, no INT management, and so forth.

No endless phone calls and late-night Wednesday visits by regges and recruiters!

Basically, if you want to come in and do a course. Fine. If not, that is also equally fine.

No IAS, no super power project, no "pictures of LRH everywhere", no endless PR about how LRH was the greatest everything (writer, photographer, artist, musician, humanitarian, etc), no endless briefings and indoctrination. No more body routers and reg police at events. No more winning by overwhelm.

If you want to get some auditing, fine, then come in and get some. If not, okay. No biggie. Live and let live.

No more attitude that Scientology is Man's only and last chance for all eternity (basis of HARD SELL), and all the intensity THAT viewpoint adds to the mix. No more animosity and attacks against all views counter to some Church party-line. A Church that allows, tolerates, and GASP, even encourages dissent! What an idea; real and honest FREE SPEECH!

The problem with Scientology is that it operates as a MOVEMENT. A very close-minded and restrictive movement. It needs to get off of its high-horse, begin to take itself FAR less seriously, and knock off the "we are changing the world" bullshit. The view that "anyone critical of us, or against our lofty goals and wondrous aims MUST be EVIL" has got to GO! No more noisy investigations, no more setting up "enemies" in phony crimes, no more "TR LYING", no more overwhelming lawsuits whose entire aim is solely to STOP critics, no more Cease and Desist notices, no more Moxon & Kobrin, no more Ava Paquette, no more "legal department" of ANY sort, and no more "endless spinning of facts to suit the group's purposes" - and SHUT UP Tommy Davis!

If Marty does anything other than that, and has any intention at all to keep the "movement" aspect of Scn going, then I wish him the same slow painful ending as DM. (of course, after he does all he can to bring DM down - and as much of the Church with him as possible) But, I am not holding my breath.

I am not interested in any version of Scientology that organizes more than a few people together at one time! It is the "organizational" aspect that has always been the MAJOR problem. Without the tight central control enacted through a carefully constructed bureaucracy (based and created on extensive LRH policy), so many of the abuses could simply not exist.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to get together with friends at some local "org" or "mission", talk some aspect of LRH theory, study a bit, do TRs for a bit, however and whenever one likes, maybe listen to a tape, but WITHOUT all of the pressure, PR, endless indoctrination, "urgent Hill 10s that needed to be handled YESTERDAY", and arrogant pretentous SO members walking around in dark uniforms? Without what to me is the most unsavory and unenjoyable aspect of all Scientology? That is, without the constant, manufactured, trumped-up sense of URGENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well, that is one HELL OF A GOOD POST. :thumbsup:

I agree with every word ! :clap:

I'm printing it for future use.

(Wish I'd written it myself !)
 
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