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For the Rathbun "Believers"

Marty had been out for some years prior to this. He didn't have to "find out wtf was was going on, and/or what was behind all the crap" because he knew what was, and he was one of the few who perpetrated a lot of it. Yet he 'sat' on it for some years. Why? And what caused his change of heart?

What gave Marty the impetus to finally speak out when he did? Was it remorse? Was it the realization that he had better be seen to be doing the right thing (now that the truth was coming out), in order to save his own ass from the legal authorities? Or was it a bright idea to capitalize on the hoards of people now leaving the church in droves?

He realized the only thing he knows how to do is work for a cult. He tried making it in the real world and failed, so now he's back to working people over with Hubbard's mind fuck. However this time he's putting the money in his own pocket instead of the cult's.

Marty is as sleazy as they come, but the good news is he isn't threat to anyone since he has absolutely backbone and is pretty much worthless at everything other than being Miscavige's little bitch. Let him continue to needle Miscavige for the remainder of his fifteen minutes which are pretty much up anyway, then he can fade away to helping the whack jobs in the freezone practice their so called religion by search for L. Ron Hubbard and Bill Robertson's space ships in the freezone.
 
Your hate for both Scientology and Marty has warped your logic. Your post shows as much.
Arnie wasn't IG Ethics. Arnie wasn't fourth in charge of all of Scientology. Arnie never had a platform like Marty.

You have no clue how many of them are reading and not posting other than the visitiors (124 right this minute...) which we always have many lurkers. What sites do you think a Scientologist is going to go visit if they are in doubt? It's not tough to figure out...
And if you could put that hate aside for a moment you'd know that Scientologists don't just go post up on anti sites...but they do read them. That's how I got here...and many others.

Sorry Mick, your hate is controling you and your thoughts.

Oh puleeze.

Now you are trying OSA tactics? Dang that is way too rich.

What next? More from Marty? The person who had the courage to stand up to Miscavige when it counted? Oh wait, no, he didn't.
 
Day Of Reckoning

I don't personally feel any hate or resentment towards Marty. By the same token though, the thought of the effect that Marty and his clan are now having on 'exes' and fence sitters, chills me to the core, and that has led to me having a problem with Marty.

I can't help but think of those years ago, when critics risked so much, did so much, and copped so much, to expose the abuses of the CofS which were the result of the Scientology "package". After going through hell and high water, those critics finally got that heavy 'mother' of a ball rolling, to the point where it took off like an exponential curve.

From Freezoners through to Anons, there has been just so much work done by so many, to expose the CofS for what it is, and the Scientology "package" for what it is in its entirety. Hundreds and thousands have looked, seen, and started on the road to recovery because 1) they were predisposed to finding out wtf was going on and what was behind all the crap, and 2) there were answers and support. How long and how much effort by so many, did it take to get to the point where it was, earlier this year, prior to the St Pete's Times articles?

Marty had been out for some years prior to this. He didn't have to "find out wtf was was going on, and/or what was behind all the crap" because he knew what was, and he was one of the few who perpetrated a lot of it. Yet he 'sat' on it for some years. Why? And what caused his change of heart?

What gave Marty the impetus to finally speak out when he did? Was it remorse? Was it the realization that he had better be seen to be doing the right thing (now that the truth was coming out), in order to save his own ass from the legal authorities? Or was it a bright idea to capitalize on the hoards of people now leaving the church in droves?

Bloody hell! So many have done so much, and gotten so far in regard to exposing the CofS and Scientology (in its entirety), for what it is and for what it's responsible for. Then along comes Marty, at the eleventh hour, blaming it all on DM (when he was one of DM's #1 henchmen); he was one who actively implemented and forwarded the crap we all object to; he takes little or no responsibility for what he did (giving 'sufficient' lip service, hardly cuts the mustard); he remains tight lipped about the corporate structure and 'scam' of the 'church'; he's rallied 'allies'; fence sitters and some exes are treating him like some kind of hero/saviour; newly or would be "outs" are latching on to his explanation for all that has transpired (because as we know, facing the scam and having the loss, is a tough one...blaming it all on DM is much more confrontable and a far easier ride); he's already got a following of people who aren't even questioning why the fuck he doesn't blow the lid off the CofS when they should know that he is one of the very few people who could; etc, etc; etc (no need for me to write a 'book' on it here, when his blog tells a story).

Some may ask, why should some of us distrust him so, but I would ask, why would so many trust him?

The ironic thing is, that's it's mainly the "Scios" or "techies" who are trusting him. Those who you would think would be looking at things like; "Look Don't Listen"; the condition formulas below Non-E; the Data Series; Precept 17 of TWTH; the success with application of some of the PR Series; responsibility on four flows; the reference where it says that ya cop the condition ya don't assign; yadda, yadda, yadda. For some reason though, these references don't apply to the likes of Marty, just like they didn't apply to the likes of DM (and for way too long).

I'm not one of those who threw the baby out with all the bath water. Some label me as a "pro techie". I'm not "anti" Freezone, although personally, I would never again pursue Scn nor suggest anyone else to. I'm not anti anyone for what they believe in, and I'm not "anti" Marty because of what he did in the past. It is what he has not done since he left and what he is doing now, that bothers me.

I am very "anti", when it comes to anything and everything that cuts across the truth of Scn and the truth of CofS being exposed. I'm also dumbfounded as to how so many "pro techies" can put so much trust and faith in a man (and/or flow so much admiration and support), when that man hasn't acknowledged nor anywhere near made up the damage, for what he has done - it's all relative. I don't think Marty should be 'damned' or never trusted because of his history. However, nor do I think that he should be trusted or supported at this time, given his omission of responsibility and lack of action to date.

The idea of anyone conning the masses to believing that this was all DM's doing (while shoving his or her own related 'crimes' under the carpet), and 'safeguarding' the 'church' so it can or may continue, makes me want to vomit, cry, and oppose.

What happens to all that hard work over the last decade or two? Are the "Marty" supporters happy to see all that go down the girgler, and then inevitably after a period of time, have another three decades of human rights abuses repeat themselves, before a whole new wave of people (years down the track) see it again and rally together to fight it, all over again?

I am pissed off that so many have gotten on the band wagon. I am fearful for the future, and I can't handle the idea that so much may well be in serious jeopardy right now as a result of yet another con man doing his tricks, with people falling for it, all over again - We have been so damn close to exposing the whole fucking scam and bringing down the CofS - I consider that what Marty is doing, as a major threat to that.

There aren't just 'two' sides to all of this. Being a Scio doesn’t mean you’re a “bad guy” and being a “critic” doesn’t mean you’re a good guy – Fool ANYONE who thinks that it does.

Nothing more attractive than a woman with brains! I think we should knight Carmel and call her ChickBoss!
:thumbsup:

These Int guys sat by and knew information that they did nothing about. In other words, DM had their tacit approval for all he did because they did nothing to stop it. They can talk Stockholm Syndrome etc, etc. but if one is going by the law (instead of defense attorney rhetoric), that's the bottom-line.

We know this because the ones who did not show complete loyalty and compliance to DM were offloaded or worse.
So what was it? asks the prosecutor--Selective application of Stockholm Syndrome??? Or did DM just like the way your hind-end looked in navy blue?

I for one certainly wish I'd known what they knew long before they "came to their senses". And we're talking decades not months or even a year or two. It would have saved me a lot of money and frustration. I find their omissions despicable especially while others were systematically ruined for nothing but speaking the truth and trying to have the wrongs rectified. In other words, the ones who did try to do something were destroyed by those who now are "friends" or "victims of circumstance".
Too little too late.
When the authorities come down on the C of $ which they will at some point in time, these guys are either going to jail as accessories to DM's crimes or they're going to cop a plea and get some lenciency in sentencing. Probably the latter.
In the meantime, I take all this blogging and stuff as just positioning for the inevitable day of reckoning.
:yes:

And I suppose my firm stance will be considered a "natter board" posting?

Would you like to buy a vowel?
G _ F _ ck Y _ _ rs_lf
 
Oh puleeze.

Now you are trying OSA tactics? Dang that is way too rich.

What next? More from Marty? The person who had the courage to stand up to Miscavige when it counted? Oh wait, no, he didn't.

Mick,

How about this - Marty Rathbun is quite possibly a self-aggrandizing blowhard, but those on the fence may still be swayed into starting the whole investigation process and ultimately leaving?

You know how I started my journey? Surfing the net and coming across Mike and Virginia McClaughry's website. I doubt many people will defend them, yet their website was instrumental in starting the process...and I have since helped several people get free of the church (some to practice in freezone, some to leave subject) - none of which would have happened without that insane duo. At the time I would have defended them against all critics...
 
Mick,

How about this - Marty Rathbun is quite possibly a self-aggrandizing blowhard, but those on the fence may still be swayed into starting the whole investigation process and ultimately leaving?

You know how I started my journey? Surfing the net and coming across Mike and Virginia McClaughry's website. I doubt many people will defend them, yet their website was instrumental in starting the process...and I have since helped several people get free of the church (some to practice in freezone, some to leave subject) - none of which would have happened without that insane duo. At the time I would have defended them against all critics...

Yeah I'd probably put Marty in Mike and Virginia McClaughry's category too
 
Isn't that what Ron said? >>>What is true for you is true for you so we do not tell you what to thnk>
As as for religious beliefs, I don't care either, except if the religious beliefs are about ruling the world, harrasing dissenters, locking people up. Keeping people in stressful conditions, forcing separation between family members etc.
But Marty isn't doing that is he? And Marty does not approve of that does he? And he knows that is not Ron's policy doesn't he?

PLEASE!!!!!!!! It IS RON'S POLICY!

Noisy investigations, SP Declares, non-enturbulation orders, disconnection, seperating the "troublesome" from the true believers, believing that ANY critic MUST have "crimes", overwhelming lawsuits to silence critics, fabricating phony scenarios and crimes to harass critics, lying (see the OSA lying drills), manufacturing endless PR and passing on only "good news" (even if it isn't true), RPF, "Scientology above all and nothing else allowed", "only Scientology matters because otherwise you will suffer an eternity of pain", all KSW extremist/fanatic data, and ON and ON ARE ALL 100% LRH data.

Anyone who wants to support Ron and a "good version" of a Church while still following all of these MANY harmful LRH policies will NEVER get my vote. How can Marty know that "it isn't Ron's policy"? When these things ARE Ron's policy!

It is a completely false view to think that the problems with the Church and the harm it causes are solely because of "alterations" and errors in applying "standard tech". It is an invalid view to have the idea that the "ideal" and "original vision" of Ron were wonderful and pure, and that it fell apart ONLY because of a bad leader in David Miscavige. Miscavige ruthlessly and faithfully applies standard LRH policy. THAT is WHY Scientology creates harmful effects on people. Scientology creates bad effects on various people, because the policy IS APPLIED exactly!

Too many mindless drones, with far too many years of extensive Church of Scientology indoctrination seem to have that notion. In many many cases, the problem IS THE "standard tech". There will be no "sane" version of Scientology unless all of the nutty and harmful policiy is removed, so that it is no longer there to be "faithfully applied". There is no small amount of that. And, people who fail to point that out and PUSH that viewpoint, to me, are very dangerous and cannot possibly understand the real flaws and problems with the operation of this thing known as Scientology.

The problems with Scientology are NOT simply because of a few "bad apples". Yes, they may ADD to the problem, but the REAL problem, the root cause of all the endless BS, is due to the LRH policies that are faithfully followed and applied. Without the nutty LRH policies on attacking "enemies", OSA tactics, lying, PRing, and the absolutist KSW mindset, none of the nonsense would exist. There is a huge error in judgment here.

Trying to blame "people" and "leaders", while neglecting the LRH policies being applied by these people and leaders, is tantamount to stupidity or intentional deception.

Wake Up!
 
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OK - how was he an opinion leader for Public? I'd love to know the details - how would that have come about? The lectures he gave? The international events he appeared on? All the public he audited? Seriosusy.

How would a public in AOSH EU have come to have Marty Rathbun as an opinion leader? I am genuinely fascinated by the concept - and believe it or not, I am very willing to be educated on this.

So you are in touch with online scientologists?

You stated categorically that scientologists don't surf the net and read critical sites. Miss Penguin proves you wrong. She knows 8 who have done so. If all posters and lurkers here know another 8 that just about accounts for all COS members. That would tally with reports on people actually on course and inn orgs.

Marty has been until recently been prominently displayed as the IG with a puff piece on COS main website. It can still be found via the wayback machine. He was POSITIONED as an opinion leader.
 
You stated categorically that scientologists don't surf the net and read critical sites. Miss Penguin proves you wrong. She knows 8 who have done so. If all posters and lurkers here know another 8 that just about accounts for all COS members. That would tally with reports on people actually on course and inn orgs.

Marty has been until recently been prominently displayed as the IG with a puff piece on COS main website. It can still be found via the wayback machine. He was POSITIONED as an opinion leader.

I agree. The idea that "Scientologists don't surf the Net" is absurd. When I was still in, I did a TON of surfing about Scientology. When it came up in session or someone wrote a KR on me about it, I got yelled at, I stopped for awhile, and then I just did it again, and more, when I felt like it.

The idea that all Church members "do as they are told" is ludicrous. There is no "exact pattern of behavior" for a "Scientologist". The "control" in the Church IS severe, but it is not perfect.
 
PLEASE!!!!!!!! It IS RON'S POLICY!

Noisy investigations, SP Declares, non-enturbulation orders, disconnection, seperating the "troublesome" from the true believers, believing that ANY critic MUST have "crimes", overwhelming lawsuits to silence critics, fabricating phony scenarios and crimes to harass critics, lying (see the OSA lying drills), manufacturing endless PR and passing on only "good news" (even if it isn't true), RPF, "Scientology above all and nothing else allowed", "only Scientology matters because otherwise you will suffer an eternity of pain", all KSW extremist/fanatic data, and ON and ON ARE ALL 100% LRH data.

Anyone who wants to support Ron and a "good version" of a Church while still following all of these MANY harmful LRH policies will NEVER get my vote. How can Marty know that "it isn't Ron's policy"? When these things ARE Ron's policy!

It is a completely false view to think that the problems with the Church and the harm it causes are solely because of "alterations" and errors in applying "standard tech". It is an invalid view to have the idea that the "ideal" and "original vision" of Ron were wonderful and pure, and that it fell apart ONLY because of a bad leader in David Miscavige. Miscavige ruthlessly and faithfully applies standard LRH policy. THAT is WHY Scientology creates harmful effects on people. Scientology creates bad effects on various people, because the policy IS APPLIED exactly!

Too many mindless drones, with far too many years of extensive Church of Scientology indoctrination seem to have that notion. In many many cases, the problem IS THE "standard tech". There will be no "sane" version of Scientology unless all of the nutty and harmful policiy is removed, so that it is no longer there to be "faithfully applied". There is no small amount of that. And, people who fail to point that out and PUSH that viewpoint, to me, are very dangerous and cannot possibly understand the real flaws and problems with the operation of this thing known as Scientology.

The problems with Scientology are NOT simply because of a few "bad apples". Yes, they may ADD to the problem, but the REAL problem, the root cause of all the endless BS, is due to the LRH policies that are faithfully followed and applied. Without the nutty LRH policies on attacking "enemies", OSA tactics, lying, PRing, and the absolutist KSW mindset, none of the nonsense would exist. There is a huge error in judgment here.

Trying to blame "people" and "leaders", while neglecting the LRH policies being applied by these people and leaders, is tantamount to stupidity or intentional deception.

Wake Up!



Yes. I know. I was being sarcastic.
 
I thought you might have been. :yes:

I figured that it wouldn't hurt to spell it out - once again! :D

You can never spell it out too often, I'm so sick of this "I have no problem with Scientology's beliefs ... it's the management I have a problem with" bullshit. The management is only following the policies contained in the scriptures of the con man who created Scientology. There is no this and that ... it's all Scientology as Hubbard intended it, take it or leave it.
 
You can never spell it out too often, I'm so sick of this "I have no problem with Scientology's beliefs ... it's the management I have a problem with" bullshit. The management is only following the policies contained in the scriptures of the con man who created Scientology. There is no this and that ... it's all Scientology as Hubbard intended it, take it or leave it.

For me, I don't see it is as simple as "taking or leaving" it ALL as one generalized package.

As I have said before, there are certain ideas Hubbard delineated, that for me, well, he did an excellent job. PDC lectures, early books, various drills in the PABs, Know to Mystery Scale, condition formulas, concept of ARC, Expanded Grades (damn, I loved the grades), Theta-MEST theory, etc. Heck, just this morning I did 5 minutes of "Spacation Drill" - where you hold onto and place interest in the rear two corners of the room while not thinking. It ALWAYS puts me "out" of thinkingness and into present time. It just "WORKS". For me.

BUT, one cannot, just because of some of the these "good ideas" ignore and refuse to acknowledge the tremendous amount of pure SHIT he also wrote, that when applied, is especially harmful.

I do differentiate, but I am no back-peddler. The crap, and that crap is extensive, MUST GO. Anyone who fails to see that the problems of managing the Church and controlling/manipulating staff and public members stem directly from exact LRH policies is simply dull-minded, lying to oneself or intentionally deceitful. THAT can be true, while certain other more "tech-related" data (Red Volumes - data on the mind and spirit) may be valid, useful and workable for some. Some of it works for me, I like some of it, BUT I would also very much like to see DM and all top level leaders marched away in handcuffs to serve 20 years in prison. I would also like to see whatever court cases result in that to also ban, cancel and OUTLAW the LRH policies that these idiots base their actions upon (see my earlier post describing some of these things). Earlier post:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=310884&postcount=86

I will also attend whatever party is held, and party HARD, when the Church of Scientology collapses and no longer exists in anything even slightly like its current form. :happydance: :thumbsup: :yes: :happydance:
 
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I don't personally feel any hate or resentment towards Marty. By the same token though, the thought of the effect that Marty and his clan are now having on 'exes' and fence sitters, chills me to the core, and that has led to me having a problem with Marty.

I can't help but think of those years ago, when critics risked so much, did so much, and copped so much, to expose the abuses of the CofS which were the result of the Scientology "package". After going through hell and high water, those critics finally got that heavy 'mother' of a ball rolling, to the point where it took off like an exponential curve.

From Freezoners through to Anons, there has been just so much work done by so many, to expose the CofS for what it is, and the Scientology "package" for what it is in its entirety. Hundreds and thousands have looked, seen, and started on the road to recovery because 1) they were predisposed to finding out wtf was going on and what was behind all the crap, and 2) there were answers and support. How long and how much effort by so many, did it take to get to the point where it was, earlier this year, prior to the St Pete's Times articles?

Marty had been out for some years prior to this. He didn't have to "find out wtf was was going on, and/or what was behind all the crap" because he knew what was, and he was one of the few who perpetrated a lot of it. Yet he 'sat' on it for some years. Why? And what caused his change of heart?

What gave Marty the impetus to finally speak out when he did? Was it remorse? Was it the realization that he had better be seen to be doing the right thing (now that the truth was coming out), in order to save his own ass from the legal authorities? Or was it a bright idea to capitalize on the hoards of people now leaving the church in droves?

Bloody hell! So many have done so much, and gotten so far in regard to exposing the CofS and Scientology (in its entirety), for what it is and for what it's responsible for. Then along comes Marty, at the eleventh hour, blaming it all on DM (when he was one of DM's #1 henchmen); he was one who actively implemented and forwarded the crap we all object to; he takes little or no responsibility for what he did (giving 'sufficient' lip service, hardly cuts the mustard); he remains tight lipped about the corporate structure and 'scam' of the 'church'; he's rallied 'allies'; fence sitters and some exes are treating him like some kind of hero/saviour; newly or would be "outs" are latching on to his explanation for all that has transpired (because as we know, facing the scam and having the loss, is a tough one...blaming it all on DM is much more confrontable and a far easier ride); he's already got a following of people who aren't even questioning why the fuck he doesn't blow the lid off the CofS when they should know that he is one of the very few people who could; etc, etc; etc (no need for me to write a 'book' on it here, when his blog tells a story).

Some may ask, why should some of us distrust him so, but I would ask, why would so many trust him?

The ironic thing is, that's it's mainly the "Scios" or "techies" who are trusting him. Those who you would think would be looking at things like; "Look Don't Listen"; the condition formulas below Non-E; the Data Series; Precept 17 of TWTH; the success with application of some of the PR Series; responsibility on four flows; the reference where it says that ya cop the condition ya don't assign; yadda, yadda, yadda. For some reason though, these references don't apply to the likes of Marty, just like they didn't apply to the likes of DM (and for way too long).

I'm not one of those who threw the baby out with all the bath water. Some label me as a "pro techie". I'm not "anti" Freezone, although personally, I would never again pursue Scn nor suggest anyone else to. I'm not anti anyone for what they believe in, and I'm not "anti" Marty because of what he did in the past. It is what he has not done since he left and what he is doing now, that bothers me.

I am very "anti", when it comes to anything and everything that cuts across the truth of Scn and the truth of CofS being exposed. I'm also dumbfounded as to how so many "pro techies" can put so much trust and faith in a man (and/or flow so much admiration and support), when that man hasn't acknowledged nor anywhere near made up the damage, for what he has done - it's all relative. I don't think Marty should be 'damned' or never trusted because of his history. However, nor do I think that he should be trusted or supported at this time, given his omission of responsibility and lack of action to date.

The idea of anyone conning the masses to believing that this was all DM's doing (while shoving his or her own related 'crimes' under the carpet), and 'safeguarding' the 'church' so it can or may continue, makes me want to vomit, cry, and oppose.

What happens to all that hard work over the last decade or two? Are the "Marty" supporters happy to see all that go down the girgler, and then inevitably after a period of time, have another three decades of human rights abuses repeat themselves, before a whole new wave of people (years down the track) see it again and rally together to fight it, all over again?

I am pissed off that so many have gotten on the band wagon. I am fearful for the future, and I can't handle the idea that so much may well be in serious jeopardy right now as a result of yet another con man doing his tricks, with people falling for it, all over again - We have been so damn close to exposing the whole fucking scam and bringing down the CofS - I consider that what Marty is doing, as a major threat to that.

There aren't just 'two' sides to all of this. Being a Scio doesn’t mean you’re a “bad guy” and being a “critic” doesn’t mean you’re a good guy – Fool ANYONE who thinks that it does.

:)


Mark A. Baker
 
Someone said that "it wasn't Ron's policy."

Also, many will remember Hubbard stating that "there is no hidden data line in Scientology."

That is a complete lie. A major example being all of the "R" or "*" advices that are still kept in binders and used at the Int base. One of those "advices" states that anyone who leaves the Int base gets an automatic declare. I know this because I read it. There are binders and binders of advices, considered to be policy, because they came from LRH. If you haven't been to the Int Base, or been on certain posts at the Int base, you haven't read them. So, yes, there is a huge "hidden data line" in the CoS and has been for YEARS.

As well, in regards to Marty, I think it's great that he is taking a stand against DM, but is that enough to account for all of the things he did as his 2nd in command for years? All the people that were imprisoned by DM and Marty over the years, including me had to suffer a great amount of mental and spiritual trauma and in a lot of cases took years to get over. I'm probably still strying to recover to some degree or I wouldn't be here writing this, and that was 9 years ago.

Hey Marty, I'm sure you lurk here, so let me ask you something. Do you remember when Bruce Bromley (ex-Senior C/S Int) blew and was recovered but kept out at Happy Valley for the remainder of his cycle before he was allowed to leave? You had 2 MAA's, myself and Terrence Une posted out there with him full-time to make sure he didn't blow and for us to keep him busy on MEST work. You would come out several times a week to Sec Check him in one of the rooms there and I remember those sessions lasting many hours at times. Well, I became very close to Bruce at that time. Instead of forcing him to do MEST work, I would let him do whatever he wanted, which was to read his fiction novels or just have pleasant conversation, but you and Chris Guider would come out and tell us to enforce the MEST work. Several months of this went by and if you remember, Bruce finally HAD it and decided to just walk out of there. Well, I LET him. I personally couldn't stand to see anyone being held like that for as long as he had. I let him go. Terrence radio'd in to the main booth that Bruce was walking down the road towards through the Soboba reservation. Terrence and I walked well behind Bruce until Chris Guider showed up, and he somehow talked Bruce into staying longer. He told him that he could go but that he's be declared and disconnected from members of his family, etc... Do you know what I was thinking at THAT time? I actually WANTED to see Bruce get out of there and I wasn't going to stop him if he wanted to leave. Funny that I was one of the guys on his watch. That night, Bruce tried to leave again and the guard at the ranch had to call in several other members of Security, I don't remember if you were there at the time, but they were physically holding him in a room until you showed up to "talk some sense into him." I witnessed Bruce trying to push and shove his way out of that room while 4 or 5 gaurds physically shoved him and held him against a wall until he calmed down. You arrived not too much later than that. Do you ever look back at these "handlings" you were overseeing and wonder what the hell you were doing? Was it really all DM? Or were you equally responsible? It's crazy that I myself ended up being held captive just like Bruce Bromley, but for an even longer preiod of time. I figured you guys were just never going to allow me to leave. Matt Butler "Murphy" one of the guards at the base told me that you guys were never going to allow Maureen Bolstad to leave when she was being held at OGH. Did you ever think to realize that you could get in serious trouble being responsible for false imprisonment crimes?

I really do hope you do the right things to make up for all that you did.
 
Someone said that "it wasn't Ron's policy."

Also, many will remember Hubbard stating that "there is no hidden data line in Scientology."

That is a complete lie. A major example being all of the "R" or "*" advices that are still kept in binders and used at the Int base. One of those "advices" states that anyone who leaves the Int base gets an automatic declare. I know this because I read it. There are binders and binders of advices, considered to be policy, because they came from LRH. If you haven't been to the Int Base, or been on certain posts at the Int base, you haven't read them. So, yes, there is a huge "hidden data line" in the CoS and has been for YEARS.

As well, in regards to Marty, I think it's great that he is taking a stand against DM, but is that enough to account for all of the things he did as his 2nd in command for years? All the people that were imprisoned by DM and Marty over the years, including me had to suffer a great amount of mental and spiritual trauma and in a lot of cases took years to get over. I'm probably still strying to recover to some degree or I wouldn't be here writing this, and that was 9 years ago.

Hey Marty, I'm sure you lurk here, so let me ask you something. Do you remember when Bruce Bromley (ex-Senior C/S Int) blew and was recovered but kept out at Happy Valley for the remainder of his cycle before he was allowed to leave? You had 2 MAA's, myself and Terrence Une posted out there with him full-time to make sure he didn't blow and for us to keep him busy on MEST work. You would come out several times a week to Sec Check him in one of the rooms there and I remember those sessions lasting many hours at times. Well, I became very close to Bruce at that time. Instead of forcing him to do MEST work, I would let him do whatever he wanted, which was to read his fiction novels or just have pleasant conversation, but you and Chris Guider would come out and tell us to enforce the MEST work. Several months of this went by and if you remember, Bruce finally HAD it and decided to just walk out of there. Well, I LET him. I personally couldn't stand to see anyone being held like that for as long as he had. I let him go. Terrence radio'd in to the main booth that Bruce was walking down the road towards through the Soboba reservation. Terrence and I walked well behind Bruce until Chris Guider showed up, and he somehow talked Bruce into staying longer. He told him that he could go but that he's be declared and disconnected from members of his family, etc... Do you know what I was thinking at THAT time? I actually WANTED to see Bruce get out of there and I wasn't going to stop him if he wanted to leave. Funny that I was one of the guys on his watch. That night, Bruce tried to leave again and the guard at the ranch had to call in several other members of Security, I don't remember if you were there at the time, but they were physically holding him in a room until you showed up to "talk some sense into him." I witnessed Bruce trying to push and shove his way out of that room while 4 or 5 gaurds physically shoved him and held him against a wall until he calmed down. You arrived not too much later than that. Do you ever look back at these "handlings" you were overseeing and wonder what the hell you were doing? Was it really all DM? Or were you equally responsible? It's crazy that I myself ended up being held captive just like Bruce Bromley, but for an even longer preiod of time. I figured you guys were just never going to allow me to leave. Matt Butler "Murphy" one of the guards at the base told me that you guys were never going to allow Maureen Bolstad to leave when she was being held at OGH. Did you ever think to realize that you could get in serious trouble being responsible for false imprisonment crimes?

I really do hope you do the right things to make up for all that you did.

After reading some of his material on this blog, Marty is far too delusional to even begin to handle taking responsiblies for the evil he personally perpetrated while in the cult. He's more interested in having freezoners blowing smoke up his ass as he blames all of Hubbard's evil policies on Miscavige. Dealing with reality is not too high on Marty's priority list ... if it even made his priority list.
 
Mick,

How about this - Marty Rathbun is quite possibly a self-aggrandizing blowhard, but those on the fence may still be swayed into starting the whole investigation process and ultimately leaving?

You know how I started my journey? Surfing the net and coming across Mike and Virginia McClaughry's website. I doubt many people will defend them, yet their website was instrumental in starting the process...and I have since helped several people get free of the church (some to practice in freezone, some to leave subject) - none of which would have happened without that insane duo. At the time I would have defended them against all critics...

I'm wondering if I know you under another name? I liked some of their website, and took the piss out of some of it. I'll see if I can find what
I posted. I was on their COSI [ COS Investigations] yahoo group until I
got kicked out for taking the piss. That must have been around 2000.
 
Someone said that "it wasn't Ron's policy."

Also, many will remember Hubbard stating that "there is no hidden data line in Scientology."

That is a complete lie. A major example being all of the "R" or "*" advices that are still kept in binders and used at the Int base. One of those "advices" states that anyone who leaves the Int base gets an automatic declare. I know this because I read it. There are binders and binders of advices, considered to be policy, because they came from LRH. If you haven't been to the Int Base, or been on certain posts at the Int base, you haven't read them. So, yes, there is a huge "hidden data line" in the CoS and has been for YEARS.

As well, in regards to Marty, I think it's great that he is taking a stand against DM, but is that enough to account for all of the things he did as his 2nd in command for years? All the people that were imprisoned by DM and Marty over the years, including me had to suffer a great amount of mental and spiritual trauma and in a lot of cases took years to get over. I'm probably still strying to recover to some degree or I wouldn't be here writing this, and that was 9 years ago.

Hey Marty, I'm sure you lurk here, so let me ask you something. Do you remember when Bruce Bromley (ex-Senior C/S Int) blew and was recovered but kept out at Happy Valley for the remainder of his cycle before he was allowed to leave? You had 2 MAA's, myself and Terrence Une posted out there with him full-time to make sure he didn't blow and for us to keep him busy on MEST work. You would come out several times a week to Sec Check him in one of the rooms there and I remember those sessions lasting many hours at times. Well, I became very close to Bruce at that time. Instead of forcing him to do MEST work, I would let him do whatever he wanted, which was to read his fiction novels or just have pleasant conversation, but you and Chris Guider would come out and tell us to enforce the MEST work. Several months of this went by and if you remember, Bruce finally HAD it and decided to just walk out of there. Well, I LET him. I personally couldn't stand to see anyone being held like that for as long as he had. I let him go. Terrence radio'd in to the main booth that Bruce was walking down the road towards through the Soboba reservation. Terrence and I walked well behind Bruce until Chris Guider showed up, and he somehow talked Bruce into staying longer. He told him that he could go but that he's be declared and disconnected from members of his family, etc... Do you know what I was thinking at THAT time? I actually WANTED to see Bruce get out of there and I wasn't going to stop him if he wanted to leave. Funny that I was one of the guys on his watch. That night, Bruce tried to leave again and the guard at the ranch had to call in several other members of Security, I don't remember if you were there at the time, but they were physically holding him in a room until you showed up to "talk some sense into him." I witnessed Bruce trying to push and shove his way out of that room while 4 or 5 gaurds physically shoved him and held him against a wall until he calmed down. You arrived not too much later than that. Do you ever look back at these "handlings" you were overseeing and wonder what the hell you were doing? Was it really all DM? Or were you equally responsible? It's crazy that I myself ended up being held captive just like Bruce Bromley, but for an even longer preiod of time. I figured you guys were just never going to allow me to leave. Matt Butler "Murphy" one of the guards at the base told me that you guys were never going to allow Maureen Bolstad to leave when she was being held at OGH. Did you ever think to realize that you could get in serious trouble being responsible for false imprisonment crimes?

I really do hope you do the right things to make up for all that you did.

BINGO! :thumbsup:

There is an idea in Scientology, and I agree with it entirely (it is not unique to Scientology, but Hubbard has stated it well at times):

Be responsible for your own condition!

Stop blaming who you are and what you did on OTHER people! You agreed, and you acted. End of story. Any person's tendency to "go the effect" of pressure or data or personalities, is that person's PROBLEM and it is their own personal issues. This applies to anyone anywhere. What you did is what you did. End of story. All else is "grasping for why", excuses and justifications. In other words, looking at everything and everywhere EXCEPT yourself! :omg:

As far as Marty goes, be responsible for who you are, who you were, what you did, and knock off all of this victim mentality shit - "oh, it is DM's fault".

Here's a suggestion Marty, and to anyone else who falls into this type behavior pattern. Examine exactly what you accepted and believed when you acted like such a raving asshole. It all comes down to THAT. Get out of your own arbitrary belief system, and start to notice where your ideas and beliefs "came from", and notice how your actions derived directly from what you accepted as true at the time. But, in the end, YOU ACCEPTED THE BELIEFS. And YOU committed the atrocities, just as did DM. He didn't "force you to".

These atrocities stem directly from exact LRH policies on the matters. Policies that a Church member accepts, adopts and puts into practice. DM might affect that process, but you EACH do it or did it. Get the "vias" off the chain. There is YOU, and there is the LRH data that you apply to get good results or bad results. Some of the data can and will ONLY and ALWAYS get "bad" results when "correctly applied". The Church policy of disconnection may "appear" to "help" the Church and forward the supposed goals of Scientology, but in the end it doesn't and it won't. And, of course, it only and always HURTS the people involved in the disconnection (breaking up families, separating friends, etc). Staff members conduct the same boring Comm Evs and issue (or enact without issuing) the same lame SP Declares, because THEY ARE ORDERED TO. This phenomena of the C of S is not unlike dramatizing robots. But, each person CHOOSES to participate and ACTS on his or her own self-determinism. Knock off all the pretense. There is YOU, and then there is the "rest of the universe". DM and the C of S are very SMALL aspects of "the rest of the universe". Why is it so important to you? Because, YOU MAKE IT SO.

YOU accept these LRH ideas as valid and ONLY YOU give them the importance they have FOR YOU. It all comes down to the person who thinks and acts. Blaming anyone else, whether LRH or DM is ludicrous.

Wake up and then Grow Up.
 
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Exactly Gadfly.

And Marty, people need to also know that you were the Int Base Prison Warden for many years. You didn't just "hit" a couple of people or whatever you said.
 
I will also attend whatever party is held, and party HARD, when the Church of Scientology collapses and no longer exists in anything even slightly like its current form. :happydance: :thumbsup: :yes: :happydance:

Please put me on the invitation list! :happydance: I'm totally ready for this party to get started, the sooner the better! :D

And Mick, thank-you for starting this thread, and to all who contributed to it. I feel that it's really helping me to understand what the hell happened in the past with scientlology as well as the existing scene.
 
PLEASE!!!!!!!! It IS RON'S POLICY!

Noisy investigations, SP Declares, non-enturbulation orders, disconnection, seperating the "troublesome" from the true believers, believing that ANY critic MUST have "crimes", overwhelming lawsuits to silence critics, fabricating phony scenarios and crimes to harass critics, lying (see the OSA lying drills), manufacturing endless PR and passing on only "good news" (even if it isn't true), RPF, "Scientology above all and nothing else allowed", "only Scientology matters because otherwise you will suffer an eternity of pain", all KSW extremist/fanatic data, and ON and ON ARE ALL 100% LRH data.

Anyone who wants to support Ron and a "good version" of a Church while still following all of these MANY harmful LRH policies will NEVER get my vote. How can Marty know that "it isn't Ron's policy"? When these things ARE Ron's policy!

That's the basic Scientology template as laid out by the Founder himself in the publicized/confidential Scientology doctrine.

It is a completely false view to think that the problems with the Church and the harm it causes are solely because of "alterations" and errors in applying "standard tech". It is an invalid view to have the idea that the "ideal" and "original vision" of Ron were wonderful and pure, and that it fell apart ONLY because of a bad leader in David Miscavige. Miscavige ruthlessly and faithfully applies standard LRH policy. THAT is WHY Scientology creates harmful effects on people. Scientology creates bad effects on various people, because the policy IS APPLIED exactly!

Too many mindless drones, with far too many years of extensive Church of Scientology indoctrination seem to have that notion. In many many cases, the problem IS THE "standard tech". There will be no "sane" version of Scientology unless all of the nutty and harmful policy is removed, so that it is no longer there to be "faithfully applied". There is no small amount of that. And, people who fail to point that out and PUSH that viewpoint, to me, are very dangerous and cannot possibly understand the real flaws and problems with the operation of this thing known as Scientology.

The problems with Scientology are NOT simply because of a few "bad apples". Yes, they may ADD to the problem, but the REAL problem, the root cause of all the endless BS, is due to the LRH policies that are faithfully followed and applied. Without the nutty LRH policies on attacking "enemies", OSA tactics, lying, PRing, and the absolutist KSW mindset, none of the nonsense would exist. There is a huge error in judgment here.

Trying to blame "people" and "leaders", while neglecting the LRH policies being applied by these people and leaders, is tantamount to stupidity or intentional deception.

Wake Up!

Marty is saying things like, "True Scientologists think for themselves," and some are going, "Wow, think for ourselves!... We can be Scientologists! LRH! LRH! LRH! LRH! LRH!"

Sigh.

The Cult of Hubbard, to be truly successful, must be able to "survive!" without enforcement from an organization. In 1938 (shortly after having written the Mussolini-esque manuscript 'Excalibur'), Hubbard wrote that he would create an effect (in the shape of his own ego, identified with his name) that would "survive!" and do so, "even if all the books are destroyed."

If decades of having a totalist (totalitarian) organization, one that practiced mind-manipulation couched in "mental healing" and "spiritual discovery," etc., have had the *impact* that might be expected, then there should be some who - apart from the organizational structure - would seek to continue the cult of Hubbard, itself. This cult of Hubbard would be decorated, much like the older more formal cult, with slogans announcing, "Think for yourself," and "Freedom!"

These are the true cultists. They don't need an organization to protect them from the Internet. They KNOW "Scientology works!" and KNOW "LRH is mankind's greatest friend."

However, they also know Scientology PR tech, so don't expect them to be completely upfront about what they think with "wogs," "BPC cases," "NCG cases," "Bashers," "Natterers," "SPs," "DBs," etc., etc., etc.

These are the folks who will return to a newly reconstituted "Scientology" - and applaud that giant picture of Hubbard with renewed zest.

Could it possibly happen?
 
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