How we realized we were in a cult

[Techless]

Well I'm interested. How has this scenario played out many, many times? I'm talking about people with zero prior exposure discovering the material and doing it completely independent of any and all pre-existing Scionos. This has happened?
And many, many times?

Well perhaps I was unclear. For this to happen: "...with zero prior exposure discovering the material and doing it completely independent of any and all pre-existing Scionos." I mean, are we talking aliens come down in a few thousand years, after all life is wiped from planet earth and they 'find' this material?

Otherwise, with "zero exposure", means it wouldn't/couldn't happen. You would have to have had some exposure to know that it existed - right? It can only just get 'passed down', unless only you or someone just invented it right there right? That's what happened in the first place anyway.

I believe there are many, who initially got into Scn, were cranking and doing good 'back in the day' and went off and started their own mission. And doing it without knowing of or having had any bizarre control/pressure placed upon them to get things going. And/or knowing of the corruption brewing...

I suppose perhaps I'm thinking that the initial question is a hypothetical that couldn't really ever exist - so following it through would be irrelevant.

But I do believe that many times, folks have started a mission, and after having only had the 'good' prior experiences - and it went creepy from there. I do understand what you were asking, but it could be put to any/all religion philosophies right? And where are they?

I mean: there seems to be somethings 'built into humans' at least - that brings about the eventual collapse of things. Now what I believe: this is what we ALL thought Scn had found and 'handled' right?

But obviously it didn't - and I can't believe for a second that it is because it wasn't/hasn't been 'followed correctly'. That's the con really, thinking that there is a 'correct way to do it' - when time and time again, it proves to be unworkable, regardless of whether it was 'followed correctly' and based upon any one's interpretation of what that means exactly.

That's the trap.

But I do wish the aliens good luck with it

 

[Reasonable]

I grew up with study tech which taught me to swallow whole Hubbard's words. If a passage didn't make sense I would look for the word(s) I didn't know the meaning of, if this didn't resolve my misunderstandings I would go to word clearing. Because of course the problem must have been in me and not Hubbard's words, he was always right. If word clearing didn't do the trick then it was off to Qual for 'de-bugging' (the bug must be in me) and finally to Ethics where I would look at myself, my overts, my withholds, my doubts etc.... This system soon taught me that if something in Hubbard's tech didn't make sense to me then I better somehow make it make sense otherwise I would be seen as the one at fault.

Study tech taught me not to question, not to doubt and to accept the tech even if it didn't make sense. Bearing in mind I was a child when I was subjected to this sort of conditioning it's unsurprising that after leaving Scientology I was unable to think critically or critically analyse the opinions or writings of others. None of Hubbard's 'work' (I use that term loosely) was backed up by any kind of evidence. He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study. I only learnt how to study after leaving Scientology. Education means being able to read something and disagree with it or question it or further develop it. I know plenty of non-scientologists who use a dictionary if they encounter a word they don't know - that isn't something that solely exists in the world of scientology. In fact, I had a very poor and limited vocabulary when I left and have known many non-scientologists with very sophisticated vocabulary's.

Hubbard didn't make up the 'tech' to help people - he didn't care about anyone other than himself. He was clever I'll give him that, but every word he wrote was only to hurt and harms others.

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you swallow the tech whole as you did it can be disastrous. Especially if you were born into it.

What you wrote is very succinct and exact. I just think that there are many different parts of the tech (whether Hubbard invented them or stole them) can be very useful. For instance what I got out of study tech was, look up words, make demos and study on a gradient. That is helpful.

If there was not some good in the tech it wouldn’t attract anyone. People have run businesses using some of the admin tech and people (maybe not you) have felt emotionally better from auditing.

Scientology is like a mousetrap where the truth is the cheese.

Make no mistake I really do agree with what you wrote. I especially like when you said

“He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study.”

However it also did help me to study.

To me what makes Scientology so dangerous is that it is a compilation of truths held together in a web of lies. You get stuck to the web call in your friends and then the LRH spider eats you and your family.

 

[poppy]

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you swallow the tech whole as you did it can be disastrous. Especially if you were born into it.

What you wrote is very succinct and exact. I just think that there are many different parts of the tech (whether Hubbard invented them or stole them) can be very useful. For instance what I got out of study tech was, look up words, make demos and study on a gradient. That is helpful.

If there was not some good in the tech it wouldn’t attract anyone. People have run businesses using some of the admin tech and people (maybe not you) have felt emotionally better from auditing.

Scientology is like a mousetrap where the truth is the cheese.

Make no mistake I really do agree with what you wrote. I especially like when you said

“He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study.”

However it also did help me to study.

To me what makes Scientology so dangerous is that it is a compilation of truths held together in a web of lies. You get stuck to the web call in your friends and then the LRH spider eats you and your family.

Its sounds a bit like you're suggesting that 'my swallowing the tech whole' was somehow an informed choice I made? It was not. Perhaps you didn't mean it in that way?

I do understand where you're coming from and I realise there is good and bad in everything, life is not so black and white. But if you recognise that Hubbard stole from the works of legitimate others why not research those original writers, theorists etc.? Hubbard was a plagiarist, surely there is more to be learnt from the people he stole from.

I'm too angry to accept that there was ever anything good in Scientology, for me there wasn't. Just lots of pain and sadness.

 

[Spirit]

With all due respect, I can not refrain from asking:
Is there anyone here that really, really did not know they were in a cult?
Seriously?
How does one be involved with a group called the CHURCH of Scientology and not be aware of the fact they are involved in a cult?
...which makes the title of this thread funny as hell when you stop and think about it.
​

 

[Bill]

Udarnik said the above in reference to getting people out of the cult. He asserts people should reject the tech while still in. I don't think that is entirely possible and I thought this should be its own thread subject. I'm not sure the title of this thread is totally perfect, but it will do. How did we all go about realizing that things were not quite right around us and how did that lead to where we are now?

It's my opinion that few who are now actively involved with Cof$ will realize all of a sudden that the tech is BS, LRH is a con man, Dwarf Midget is Satan (LOL) and they need to get the hell out right now. I think it's usually a bit more gradual. My own path went something as follows and I am curious if anyone would contribute how their's was similar or different:

(1) realize that something is wrong with Cof$ management and its current programs;
(2) protest against this;
(3) find out your protests are being met with stony silence or worse attacks against you, ethics interviews, justice, etc.;
(4) start to break out of the cult think and realize something is REALLY wrong;
(5) distance yourself from the whole thing;
(6) start seeing more outnesses and illogicality in the operation;
(7) if not done already, start investigating on other channels such as the internet to see if there is other data to substantiate or explain the outnesses you spotted;
(8) be shocked and awed by the wealth of data you find outside the Cof$ about its abuses, things you never ever suspected were going on;
(9) realize that you have been being lied to a lot more than you ever imagined was possible;
(10) question the very integrity of the technology that you thought was going to set you free forever;
(11) question the integrity of the source of this technology;
(12) stop being a True Believer;
(13) realize with shock that you were actually in a cult;
(14) finally break free entirely from the cult mindset entirely.

Thoughts?

Nice. I would add, for those who really thought they had THE technology from Hubbard:
(15) Realize that, even if you felt you got "some benefit" from Scientology that:
(a) Hubbard lied about his research and his results and there is no proof of "engrams" and, therefore, there is no "Reactive Mind".
(b) The foundations of Hubbard's "technology" are lies. Nothing of human nature is "explained in Scientology" because all Hubbard's "explanations" are based on his earlier lies.
(c) Spiritual improvement is available from many, many, many different places,
(d) You realize you don't want to associate in any way with Hubbard's lies and Hubbard's "technologies" - and you start searching, exploring and discovering again.

Bill

 

[guanoloco]

Well perhaps I was unclear. For this to happen: "...with zero prior exposure discovering the material and doing it completely independent of any and all pre-existing Scionos." I mean, are we talking aliens come down in a few thousand years, after all life is wiped from planet earth and they 'find' this material?

Otherwise, with "zero exposure", means it wouldn't/couldn't happen. You would have to have had some exposure to know that it existed - right? It can only just get 'passed down', unless only you or someone just invented it right there right? That's what happened in the first place anyway.

I believe there are many, who initially got into Scn, were cranking and doing good 'back in the day' and went off and started their own mission. And doing it without knowing of or having had any bizarre control/pressure placed upon them to get things going. And/or knowing of the corruption brewing...

I suppose perhaps I'm thinking that the initial question is a hypothetical that couldn't really ever exist - so following it through would be irrelevant.

But I do believe that many times, folks have started a mission, and after having only had the 'good' prior experiences - and it went creepy from there. I do understand what you were asking, but it could be put to any/all religion philosophies right? And where are they?

I mean: there seems to be somethings 'built into humans' at least - that brings about the eventual collapse of things. Now what I believe: this is what we ALL thought Scn had found and 'handled' right?

But obviously it didn't - and I can't believe for a second that it is because it wasn't/hasn't been 'followed correctly'. That's the con really, thinking that there is a 'correct way to do it' - when time and time again, it proves to be unworkable, regardless of whether it was 'followed correctly' and based upon any one's interpretation of what that means exactly.

That's the trap.

But I do wish the aliens good luck with it

It's completely hypothetical.

The original post, Techless, considered a post from Sindy where a lone survivor of a nuclear apocalypse is walking and she captioned it with something to the affect of "Titanium Blues" as the guy is searching for the tech. Cool post.

Her post with the pic.

Her post.

guano reply.

Made me wonder if the tech were to drop into an isolated culture would it pervert them into the monstrosity that Scientology is today OR would it become a wholesome endeavor, sort of the outer layer of the onion, as portrayed in the HCOPLs and HCOBs. Yes, there is vitriol there but I realized that much of the crap written must be PR cover up being run on the vast majority of unsuspecting Sciono dupes - the general staff and public - because Scientology looks and, more importantly, acts nothing like what is conveyed/portrayed in these HCOPLs/HCOBs.

It's an old idea of people waking up and realizing that the Scientology that they were experiencing WAS the creation of L. Ron and not some misunderstood, squirrely version that was at contrast to what they read and wanted and thought Scientology represented.

Once again, completely hypothetical but imagine if the writings were discovered and interpreted by a culture that had no prior exposure to Scientology at all. Would it be good, bad or in between?

 

[Reasonable]

Its sounds a bit like you're suggesting that 'my swallowing the tech whole' was somehow an informed choice I made? It was not. Perhaps you didn't mean it in that way?
.

I assumed it was forced upon you because you said “I grew up with study tech which taught me to swallow whole Hubbard's words.”

 

[DagwoodGum]

Wait a minute- let me see if I have this right...

You doubted you were clear after you attested to clear then off to St Hill to be declared not clear then after a protest you were declared clear and in 1991 was declared a natural clear?

I wonder if you were past life clear, dianetic clear, clear clear or just plain ole clear? That may be the confusion - a "natural clear" does not make much money for the Cult! You may be clear - but I am confused about your clearing to clear... sounds like the tek is confused as to what a clear is...

And you said it was TRAUMATIC?

And you think the tek works?

Oh, if it is standardly applied....I see!

I was determined to be "natural clear" some years back. Looking back I'd say I F/N'd on that item on the list being run because I liked the sound of it as well as the concept, aaahhhh "Natural Clear"!!!! It just felt good to contemplate it, like a natural spring or natural light. Who wouldn't F/N on such a nice couple of words as those? I wonder how many other "natural clear" declares were arrived at in similar fashion? Of course, later I realized there was never anything to be cleared of which was when I knew that I was really out and it is a progression.

 

[Lurker5]

I love this thread - it is soooo GOOD ! Bumping it for prosperity.

 

[mclovin]

IMO, the only reason most Scns go along with the crap is their belief in the Myth of OT and the Myth of El Ron as the OT de OT's.

Belief systems are a strong motivator.... it is the same motivator that makes Catholic's follow the tenets of Catholicism (confessing sins, lack of birth control, etc. etc. etc.), Muslims justify jihad's to attain martyrdom (kinda dig having your own harem!), and Mormon's follow a guy contacted by an angel to find some gold plates from Egypt buried in NY (LOL! and lot's o' wives).

IMHO, the underlying success of all these systems is the instillment of fear... fear that you will lose that which they are promising after life on earth. I am not a religious man, I believe that there is an afterlife, and possibly a higher being. But I am NOT going to let anyone tell me who believe, what my beliefs should be, or how to follow my beliefs.

Anyway... I believe what I believe... sounds familiar!

McLovin

 

[Crashed Alien]

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you swallow the tech whole as you did it can be disastrous. Especially if you were born into it.

What you wrote is very succinct and exact. I just think that there are many different parts of the tech (whether Hubbard invented them or stole them) can be very useful. For instance what I got out of study tech was, look up words, make demos and study on a gradient. That is helpful.

If there was not some good in the tech it wouldn’t attract anyone. People have run businesses using some of the admin tech and people (maybe not you) have felt emotionally better from auditing.

Scientology is like a mousetrap where the truth is the cheese.

Make no mistake I really do agree with what you wrote. I especially like when you said

“He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study.”

However it also did help me to study.

To me what makes Scientology so dangerous is that it is a compilation of truths held together in a web of lies. You get stuck to the web call in your friends and then the LRH spider eats you and your family.

Reasonable,

I also find study tech valuable. Various other things too, such as locationals, touch assists, etc...

However, I was born into the church and your statement "If you swallow the tech whole as you did it can be disastrous. Especially if you were born into it." is of interest to me.

Being born into something means that whatever is happening, however outrageous and "obviously wrong" it might be from an objective view, it is "Normal" to those who have known nothing else and are in it.

I feel it is unfair for you to state that is might be disastrous based in "swallowing the tech whole as you did": That would be like me saying to you that you swallowed the tech whole regarding crossing the road, or turning light switches on and off or putting on clothes, or driving rules - It was normal - It is normal! And that is an issue when one realises that it might not be normal!

What if you suddenly realised that you were not supposed to wear clothes in public and that that is the biggest taboo in our society (Just speculative to demonstrate a point here) ... Sounds outrageous to you. Well that is the case with me in regard to the rules and the "Tech" that you speak of... What is normal and unquestioned up to now appears to be considered abnormal by a ot of people and is being questioned severely by me.

But it is hard. Very hard indeed. Let me see if I can get this across clearly with a mad example.

A question for you....

Would you walk out of your house stark naked tomorrow and go to work? Even if all your friends insisted that it was normal... Well? Would you?

Of course not!

Well that is how it is for those born in... I was born into Scientology in 1964... Only relatively recently have I really been coming aware of what was happening.

And I am scared... I am loath to admit it, but I am scared...

That is the truth.

My world, my universe has crumbled to dust.

Not all of it.

But a lot of it...

So go easy with what you say, "Disastrous" "because I swallowed the tech whole" seems a bit harsh and suggests that I, and others, chose that and could have had another choice to take or leave it?

You are wearing your clothes right now... Take them off and go to work...

No? You would be embarrassed?

Not half as embarrassed as you might be if you were to find out that no one else wore clothes and that you had not noticed...

I wonder if you get this or if the analogy is too abstract...

Whichever it is, I wish you well and have nothing but warm feelings for you.

Crash

 

[Crashed Alien]

With all due respect, I can not refrain from asking:
Is there anyone here that really, really did not know they were in a cult?
Seriously?
How does one be involved with a group called the CHURCH of Scientology and not be aware of the fact they are involved in a cult?
...which makes the title of this thread funny as hell when you stop and think about it.
​

Spirit,

Yes, there is at least one person here who did not know that they were in a cult.

Me...

Seriously.

Read my previous post.

And if you think it is easy to just readjust and throw away everything that one has ever known, well it isn't. And it really isn't like that.

Crash

 

[iHateDuplicity]

Have to agree with Crashed Alien on this. I knew all along when I was in Cof$ that it was a "cult" but it was the same for me as calling the Catholic Church a cult, i.e. it wasn't something sinister or strange. Hell, man, we thought we were saving the world! I didn't care what other doubters and nay-sayers had to say about what I was doing! Who cares about the opinion of a bunch of aberrated SPs when you can liken yourself to Neo in The Matrix saving the universe?

It didn't occur to me until I started seeing the contrary facts, ruined lives and failed "expansion programs" of the Cof$ that it began to dawn on me that I was fighting for a cause that was not worthy and was not everything it had said it was. And that is when it dawned on me that I'd been living a lie. And no one felt a bigger sense of betrayal and surprise than me.

So I hope the above sheds some light on why it wasn't so easy to see that we were in a dangerous and deceitful cult, and why it wasn't obvious from the start. And I didn't find it funny at all.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Have to agree with Crashed Alien on this. I knew all along when I was in Cof$ that it was a "cult" but it was the same for me as calling the Catholic Church a cult, i.e. it wasn't something sinister or strange. Hell, man, we thought we were saving the world! I didn't care what other doubters and nay-sayers had to say about what I was doing! Who cares about the opinion of a bunch of aberrated SPs when you can liken yourself to Neo in The Matrix saving the universe?

It didn't occur to me until I started seeing the contrary facts, ruined lives and failed "expansion programs" of the Cof$ that it began to dawn on me that I was fighting for a cause that was not worthy and was not everything it had said it was. And that is when it dawned on me that I'd been living a lie. And no one felt a bigger sense of betrayal and surprise than me.

So I hope the above sheds some light on why it wasn't so easy to see that we were in a dangerous and deceitful cult, and why it wasn't obvious from the start. And I didn't find it funny at all.

I think that I knew lots of stuff, I knew there were people who were broken PCs who had to stay away from the Org as something had gone wrong. I knew that there were secrets that the org had to hide. These were just isolated cases where the tech couldn't cope, like a touch assist might fail to cure cancer every few years. There were rumours about disappeared people and we often had little pay as the refunds would swallow the profits. There were always people starting on staff yet the org didn't grow. I saw letters of complaint and handed them on I failed to take notice of it, it was just entheta you see.

 

[Alle G]

BY Crashed Alien
..........................................
Being born into something means that whatever is happening, however outrageous and "obviously wrong" it might be from an objective view, it is "Normal" to those who have known nothing else and are in it.
.................................................................

Hi Crash
I don’t understand. How isolated were you?
Did you watch cartoons, read children books, walk on the streets, see movies, go the zoo, to sea holidays, watch tv, read books about life, not scientology? Did you notice people speak differently and discuss different things?

What do you mean by ‘know nothing else’? Did you think you were different from the rest of the world or you thought the rest of the world is the same as scientology?


Thanks

 

[Free to shine]

Hi Crash
I don’t understand. How isolated were you?
Did you watch cartoons, read children books, walk on the streets, see movies, go the zoo, to sea holidays, watch tv, read books about life, not scientology? Did you notice people speak differently and discuss different things?

What do you mean by ‘know nothing else’? Did you think you were different from the rest of the world or you thought the rest of the world is the same as scientology?


Thanks

I think you really don't understand what scientology does to a value system. Of course the children thought they were different, because their parents and everyone around them thought so. It was "them and us" - "wogs and scientologists". The very basic concepts of kindness, love, family, sharing, success, goals etc etc were scientology instilled ones, and harsh ones at that. Children were taught to suppress emotions, to look for what they did wrong when they were ill or had an accident, taught not to question or develop critical thinking. I could go on and on, it is a desperately sad scenario and can take many many years and lots of hard work to begin to resolve. I totally understand Crash and I wish more people understood what happened and still happens to children in that cult. Have you read Jenna Hill's book?

 

[Churchill]

I'm sure many of us have had different experiences in Scientology, some worse than others. It has taken years for me to be able to untangle the web of trauma and abuses I suffered amongst which I was unable to find any 'wins' or 'success stories'. I grew up with study tech which taught me to swallow whole Hubbard's words. If a passage didn't make sense I would look for the word(s) I didn't know the meaning of, if this didn't resolve my misunderstandings I would go to word clearing. Because of course the problem must have been in me and not Hubbard's words, he was always right. If word clearing didn't do the trick then it was off to Qual for 'de-bugging' (the bug must be in me) and finally to Ethics where I would look at myself, my overts, my withholds, my doubts etc.... This system soon taught me that if something in Hubbard's tech didn't make sense to me then I better somehow make it make sense otherwise I would be seen as the one at fault.

Study tech taught me not to question, not to doubt and to accept the tech even if it didn't make sense. Bearing in mind I was a child when I was subjected to this sort of conditioning it's unsurprising that after leaving Scientology I was unable to think critically or critically analyse the opinions or writings of others. None of Hubbard's 'work' (I use that term loosely) was backed up by any kind of evidence. He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study. I only learnt how to study after leaving Scientology. Education means being able to read something and disagree with it or question it or further develop it. I know plenty of non-scientologists who use a dictionary if they encounter a word they don't know - that isn't something that solely exists in the world of scientology. In fact, I had a very poor and limited vocabulary when I left and have known many non-scientologists with very sophisticated vocabulary's.

Hubbard didn't make up the 'tech' to help people - he didn't care about anyone other than himself. He was clever I'll give him that, but every word he wrote was only to hurt and harms others.

This is really a very profound post. Thank you for writing it.

 

[Crashed Alien]

Hi Crash
I don’t understand. How isolated were you?
Did you watch cartoons, read children books, walk on the streets, see movies, go the zoo, to sea holidays, watch tv, read books about life, not scientology? Did you notice people speak differently and discuss different things?

What do you mean by ‘know nothing else’? Did you think you were different from the rest of the world or you thought the rest of the world is the same as scientology?


Thanks

Alle G,

We were not isolated physically from the society; we went to school and had a few non-Scientology friends.

But everything around us was from a Scientology view.

Yes, we watched cartoons, read children's books, walked on the streets, watched films (Usually dropped off at the cinema to watch them without my parents), went to the zoo (but not with my parents - with the school), went on a few outings/holidays but only a couple of times with my parents. Books about life were pretty much all LRH material.

For me to answer your question "What do you mean by ‘know nothing else’?" I think you need to understand that I was immersed from birth in the view that we were different and because we had the only workable solution to ALL man's problems, we were superior and separate...

We were lead to believe that we were the only true church; and that is as far from being a cult as you can get.

Non-Scientologists were known as Wogs... They still are!

I went to school, but I did not really try to get good grades; The view was "why would I need them, I was going to joint the Sea Org or the GO as soon as I left school and did not need any wog certificates"...

I recall pitying people who could not see the "truth"...

So you see, I did think I was part of a group that was different from the rest of the world - The rest of the world was definitely NOT the same as Scientology - It was in the dark ages and we were light years ahead and set to save the planet! Actually, the universe.

You may think I am joking or that I am some sort of half-wit.

However, there are a lot of scams and a lot of people being lead down the garden path all over the place - I am sure you have been, and are having the wool pulled over your eyes right now to a lesser degree.

So I am trying to pick through the rubble of my universe to find anything that was good. And there are certain things such as study tech, touch assists, book one auditing, locationals, etc. These things do not require faith to work, they are based on common sense.

I hope that helps to answer your questions...

Crash

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Alle G,

We were not isolated physically from the society; we went to school and had a few non-Scientology friends.

But everything around us was from a Scientology view.

Yes, we watched cartoons, read children's books, walked on the streets, watched films (Usually dropped off at the cinema to watch them without my parents), went to the zoo (but not with my parents - with the school), went on a few outings/holidays but only a couple of times with my parents. Books about life were pretty much all LRH material.

For me to answer your question "What do you mean by ‘know nothing else’?" I think you need to understand that I was immersed from birth in the view that we were different and because we had the only workable solution to ALL man's problems, we were superior and separate...

We were lead to believe that we were the only true church; and that is as far from being a cult as you can get.

Non-Scientologists were known as Wogs... They still are!

I went to school, but I did not really try to get good grades; The view was "why would I need them, I was going to joint the Sea Org or the GO as soon as I left school and did not need any wog certificates"...

I recall pitying people who could not see the "truth"...

So you see, I did think I was part of a group that was different from the rest of the world - The rest of the world was definitely NOT the same as Scientology - It was in the dark ages and we were light years ahead and set to save the planet! Actually, the universe.

You may think I am joking or that I am some sort of half-wit.

However, there are a lot of scams and a lot of people being lead down the garden path all over the place - I am sure you have been, and are having the wool pulled over your eyes right now to a lesser degree.

So I am trying to pick through the rubble of my universe to find anything that was good. And there are certain things such as study tech, touch assists, book one auditing, locationals, etc. These things do not require faith to work, they are based on common sense.

I hope that helps to answer your questions...

Crash

Well it answers the question for me. I remember watching the schoolies going off to school or coming back from there to Stonelands on buses, it's very dim memories now, it was a long time ago. But SO kids were not anything like other kids. You explained that very eloquently. The look on the kids faces was partly adults dressed as kids and partly disdain for mere wogs. Badly dressed unkempt uncared for quite possibly dirty but looking down their noses at the lovely well kept gardens and cottages the bus went past. The kids also had a wildness about them, that quite probably came from the lack of parental contact. The general feeling I had was neglect.

 

[Alle G]

Thank you Crash

This is fascinating. I hope everything will turn out very well for you.