LOOT!!

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
It is well known that LRH was a RockSlammer. Gordon Bell had access to his folders at St. Hill, and was witness to them.

L8r, Otto was "beached" for his wanting to handle them.

David Mayo, in Bare Faced Messiah, most likely VOICED one of LRH's R\S'ing statements:

'It wasn't just what I discovered about his past. I didn't care where he was born or what he had done in the war, it didn't mean a thing to me. I wasn't a loyal Scientologist because he had an illustrious war record. What worried me was when I saw things he did and heard statements he made that showed his intentions were different from what they appeared to be. When I was with him messengers often arrived with suitcases full of money, wads of hundred-dollar bills. Yet he had always said and written that he had never received a penny from Scientology. He would ask to see it, the messenger would open the case and he'd gloat over it for a bit before it was put away in a safe in his bedroom. He didn't really spend much, so I guess it was getaway money. I didn't mind the idea of him having money or being rich. I thought he had done tremendous wonders and should be well paid for it. But why did have to lie about it?

'I slowly began to realize that he wasn't acting in the public good or for the benefit of mankind. It might have started out like that, but it was no longer so. One day we were talking about the price of gold, or something like that, and he said to me, very emphatically, that he was obsessed by an insatiable lust for power and money. I'll never forget it. Those were his exact words, "an insatiable lust for power and money".' (Miller: "Bare-faced Messiah", pg. 358)


So there you have it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly, Hubbard wriggled out of the R/S thing when he announced that any R/S on an OT was "Invalidation".

Well, this gave the rest of us a cop out. Any time there was a R/S, all you had to do was say "That is because I was invalidated".

Secondly, Otto told an Independent meeting a few years ago that had he actually marked Hubbard's R/S file as R/S (Special Reads) he might well still be in there. (What a lucky escape)
 

Div6

Crusader
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly, Hubbard wriggled out of the R/S thing when he announced that any R/S on an OT was "Invalidation".

Well, this gave the rest of us a cop out. Any time there was a R/S, all you had to do was say "That is because I was invalidated".

Secondly, Otto told an Independent meeting a few years ago that had he actually marked Hubbard's R/S file as R/S (Special Reads) he might well still be in there. (What a lucky escape)

I'm not fully following your gist re: Otto. Per the story that he wrote: "There were lots of, what was later labeled, "discreditable" reads. This was what R 2-12 and Tiger Drilling had been all about and it certainly was n't something the FESers attached any further significance to than noting it down for future handling."

So if those weren't being called R\S'es, then what is the real story?
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm not fully following your gist re: Otto. Per the story that he wrote: "There were lots of, what was later labeled, "discreditable" reads. This was what R 2-12 and Tiger Drilling had been all about and it certainly was n't something the FESers attached any further significance to than noting it down for future handling."

So if those weren't being called R\S'es, then what is the real story?


I will answer by PM.
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
Party pooper :grouch:

Very sorry, but there were some comments to be made about the person personally and I feel that it would have been disrespectful to have publically made them.

I will continue to relate aspects of matters that deserve a very public airing.

I forget now, have I told the story of the Liability Cruise, the stay in Alicante and what REALLY went on?
 

Div6

Crusader
Very sorry, but there were some comments to be made about the person personally and I feel that it would have been disrespectful to have publically made them.

I will continue to relate aspects of matters that deserve a very public airing.

I forget now, have I told the story of the Liability Cruise, the stay in Alicante and what REALLY went on?

No! Nor have you divulged what kind of woman MSH REALLY was! :D
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I'm not fully following your gist re: Otto. Per the story that he wrote: "There were lots of, what was later labeled, "discreditable" reads. This was what R 2-12 and Tiger Drilling had been all about and it certainly was n't something the FESers attached any further significance to than noting it down for future handling."

So if those weren't being called R\S'es, then what is the real story?

Maybe I have a crashing MU here. In 1962 Rock slame were used in GPM tech, circa 1962. See tech dict.

Not discreditable.

Just found this fascinating post from Ken Urquhart on ACT google archives.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:24:24 -0500
From: "Kenneth G. Urquhart" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LRH the ideal pc (fwd)

Homer W. Smith wrote:

> We are having a discussion elsewhere where someone said that LRH was an
> ideal pc because he knew so much about the mind.

> Anyone wish to comment on this?

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Homer Wilson Smith News, Web, Telnet Art Matrix - Lightlink
> (607) 277-0959 SunOS 4.1.4 Sparc 20 Internet Access, Ithaca NY
> [email protected] [email protected] http://www.lightlink.comHomer

LRH was the only person on auditing lines at Flag, either on the ship
or at Clearwater, who did not have a full Folder Error Summary done
on his folder, with all errors detected and corrected.

This just happens to be what we used to call Gross Out-Tech.

In view of the nature and extent of his auditing up to and including
hundreds of hours on GPMs, we really goofed it on him.

The one person who tried to do something about it, Otto Roos, landed
himself in deepest shit when LRH found out it was being done. Otto
unfortunately did not lock away the work he was doing on the LRH
Folder Error Summary and so a messenger was able to get hold of it
and bring it to LRH. When he opened it up (a stupidity on his own
part) he found there were in it lists of "Rock Slams" taken from
the GPM sessions. In the days when GPMs were run, Rock Slams were
expected; whether they were valid R/Ses (ie the auditor had the
ability to tell what was an R/S and what wasn't, and could tell
what they were reading on when they occurred [if they did]) we
now can't tell. However, when he opened his FES and read it he
came across lists of these real or supposed R/Ses. Now, he had
not long begun an action of 'weeding out' from the ship's crew
anybody who had List One R/Ses (ie R/Ses on LRH, MSH, or Scn or
Dn) so the shock to him must have been considerable. He did not
stop to consider what the reality might be regarding the listed
R/Ses, but exploded in fury.

Otto was summoned, and, although I can't blame him for how he
handled it, since LRH in fury is one thing, but LRH in fury and
dramatizing session by-passed charge out of session would be
just about unhandlable. Anyway, Otto chose to handle it with
TRO, and did not make any of the indications of BPC that he
might have. The final result was that he was soon kicked off
the ship, and the LRH FES was dropped. Since I was the one who
held the key to the cabinet in which LRH's folders had been
filed, and I had given the folders to Otto, I expected to
follow him swiftly but I didn't, for some reason.

LRH did years and years of research--solo auditing himself on
OT levels up to (he told me) about 85--over all that BPC,
including hours and hours of listing on extremely heavily
charged areas.

He also lived and worked over that charge..

I do not think he was an ideal pc. There were two regular auditors
he had that I remember, on the ship. One was David Mayo. I do not
know of any trouble that David had, and indeed, from his own story,
David saved LRH's life and helped develop NOTs. I was not in
California when that took place, and have no direct knowledge of
that.

There was one time in the early seventies when he had not been well.
A woman auditor was sent up to give him a session. A few moments
after she took him into session he started yelling. He did not
stop yelling for the rest of the session, I think it was about an
hour. Mayo (who was C/Sing at the time) eventually went into the
auditing room and took over. I never asked what had been going on;
we all just assumed that the first auditor had really goofed it
up. But years later it occurred to me that perhaps she had just
been doing a good job of trying to get his ruds in so she could
give him a session, and was sticking to her guns. I can't say
what it was--only David could, by now, I should say.

To what extent any difficulty he had with being in session had to
do with known withholds and with unhandled session and program
errors, I can't say. From what I know of him I would say that it
would have been uncharacteristic of him to knowingly withhold in
session from an auditor he trusted (I think he trusted Mayo); he
knew only too well what that does to a pc); so I would be inclined
to lean towards the unhandled FES as the source of most of any
difficulty he might have had.

We know from the products of his actions that he was subject to
aberrated ideas and feelings that did not get brought to light
and handled in his sessions, or anywhere else.

I must say that all those of us who were around him are culpable
to a large degree for not applying to him his own technology.
I very often saw him get upset and be extremely angry; he could
be extremely critical of others behind their backs; yet neither
I nor anyone else confronted him with these evidences of out-
ethics on his own part. We all knew the manifestations of missed
withholds, of overts, of MUs, and we did not even think that we
should sit him down and help him come clean. We didn't view L. Ron
Hubbard as a creature to whom such things would be done. I don't
think he wanted to be viewed like that and I'm sure he would have
screamed blue murder if we had, but we might have clearer
consciences had we at least made the attempt. But I should speak
for myself, not for others, and this is how I feel about that.

He knew better as well as we.

We'll do better in the future.

Hope this forwards the discussion a bit.

KG
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
This was what R 2-12 and Tiger Drilling had been all about and it certainly was n't something the FESers attached any further significance to than noting it down for future handling."

So if those weren't being called R\S'es, then what is the real story?

In the early days of R2-12 and Goals finding there was no stigma attatched to Rock/Slams, other than they were highly charged items.

It actually denotes a locked in long term mortal combat Red Zone destructive games condition with someone or something in present time.

Actually easy to undo - with the right procedure.

Ron got hung by his own evil petard of bogey-men creation when he designated R/Sers as SPs.

Now he could not get relief from his own locked in mortal combat Red Zone destructive games condition with someone or something - which was almost everyone and everything in PT in the end! :omg:

Alan
 

Veda

Sponsor
Maybe I have a crashing MU here. In 1962 Rock slame were used in GPM tech, circa 1962. See tech dict.

Not discreditable.

Just found this fascinating post from Ken Urquhart on ACT google archives.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:24:24 -0500
From: "Kenneth G. Urquhart" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LRH the ideal pc (fwd)

-snip-

We know from the products of his actions that he was subject to
aberrated ideas and feelings that did not get brought to light
and handled in his sessions, or anywhere else.

I must say that all those of us who were around him are culpable
to a large degree for not applying to him his own technology.
I very often saw him get upset and be extremely angry; he could
be extremely critical of others behind their backs; yet neither
I nor anyone else confronted him with these evidences of out-
ethics on his own part. We all knew the manifestations of missed
withholds, of overts, of MUs, and we did not even think that we
should sit him down and help him come clean. We didn't view L. Ron
Hubbard as a creature to whom such things would be done. I don't
think he wanted to be viewed like that and I'm sure he would have
screamed blue murder if we had, but we might have clearer
consciences had we at least made the attempt. But I should speak
for myself, not for others, and this is how I feel about that.

He knew better as well as we.

We'll do better in the future.

Hope this forwards the discussion a bit.

KG

Hubbard had a self-serving hidden agenda - quite ruthless and crazed - from as far back as the 1930s.

IMO, Scientology is a dysfunctional "applied religious philosophy" primarily because of that hidden agenda.

Probably, Hubbard would have done something else entirely - other than "spirituality," "philosophy," and "mental healing" - if he hadn't been motivated to use those as a means to "make Napoleon look like a punk," and "smash" his "name into history," (1938)

Hubbard wrote that "men" were his "slaves" and that he had hypnotic power over others, (1946).

He wrote that his doubters and critics should have "no rights of any kind" (1951), should be "ruined utterly," (1955), and (wrote secretly) the details of how to use "mental healing" to "assert and maintain dominion over the thoughts and loyalties" of others, (1955).

Ironically, the "good parts" of Scientology (used as subordinate "window dressing") - whether taken from others, plagiarized by Hubbard, or innovated/originated by Hubbard, probably wouldn't have been there (at least as part of Scientology), without that underlying self-serving hidden agenda.

How Elronic.

That giant pink hand, dangling from the sky, that some yearn to clasp, is just a 'Johnson, Smith' practical joke catalogue giant rubber hand.

Deal with it Freezone Scientologists. Time to grow up.

Includes Hubbard's "Mission Statement" of 1938:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=37634&postcount=2
 
Last edited:

beyond_horizons

Patron Meritorious
In the early days of R2-12 and Goals finding there was no stigma attatched to Rock/Slams, other than they were highly charged items.

It actually denotes a locked in long term mortal combat Red Zone destructive games condition with someone or something in present time.

Actually easy to undo - with the right procedure.

Ron got hung by his own evil petard of bogey-men creation when he designated R/Sers as SPs.

Now he could not get relief from his own locked in mortal combat Red Zone destructive games condition with someone or something - which was almost everyone and everything in PT in the end! :omg:

Alan
To understand this and its consequences is to put the evolution of the dark side of this Luna's tech into perspective.

WISI and before creation of the 'Imagine Nation', someone should have;
1. thrown his butt off the ship to see who would have jumped in to save him
2. then throw both their butts off the ship to see who would save them
3. then thrown all ... :) !

Would have spared those showing up here allot of heart ach, pain and suffering. That said this sharing is a great start at a correction.

The guy, who thought himself as the 'brighter of the group' couldn't be upstaged by the brightest of the group who tried to help him.

.
 

Veda

Sponsor
To understand this and its consequences is to put the evolution of the dark side of this Luna's tech into perspective.

WISI and before creation of the 'Imagine Nation', someone should have;
1. thrown his butt off the ship to see who would have jumped in to save him
2. then throw both their butts off the ship to see who would save them
3. then thrown all ... :) !

Would have spared those showing up here allot of heart ach, pain and suffering. That said this sharing is a great start at a correction.

The guy, who thought himself as the 'brighter of the group' couldn't be upstaged by the brightest of the group who tried to help him.

.

What date did Rock Slams became regarded as discreditable reads?
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
What date did Rock Slams became regarded as discreditable reads?

They were hinted at on a gradient - it nearly always meant some kind of continuous PT overts being commited.

But they became more and more discredible around 1965-66 - they became bogey-man designation during the Class VIII course.

Darth may have more specific data.

Alan
 

ThisFenceHurts

Patron with Honors
Otto Roos

Maybe Alan or Dart can clarify this for me... a guy by the name of Dan Sigal used to go around claiming to be the OT that found out about the crimes of Otto Roos and got him declared, this happening when Dan was a youngster aboard the ship. Can anyone verify or discredit this story? If not, does anyone remember Dan Sigal?
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
Maybe Alan or Dart can clarify this for me... a guy by the name of Dan Sigal used to go around claiming to be the OT that found out about the crimes of Otto Roos and got him declared, this happening when Dan was a youngster aboard the ship. Can anyone verify or discredit this story? If not, does anyone remember Dan Sigal?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds to me like the nobody who claimed to have shot Liberty Valence.:roflmao: :roflmao:

I certainly don't remember anybody called Dan Segal when I was on board.:unsure:

The story sounds like a load of tosh to me. Otto may have been a bit of a forceful personality, but he was no criminal either. Otto, being typically Dutch, had almost no sense of humour, was very direct on the tech delivery, held an almost narcissistic view about himself, being a legend in his own mind, and thought he was God's gift to women. :screwy: :point: :buttkick:

What got Otto in trouble was writing on the outside of Hubbard's FES file "R/S's". He always said that had he written "S/R's" (Special Reads he would probably still have been in the SO. Otto made this statement at an Independent's Meeting in London a few years ago.

As for Dan Segal, Dan who???:duh: :duh: :duh:
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
As for Dan Segal, Dan who?

SEA ORGANIZATION

VOL IV NO. 108
WEDS 21 APR 1971

*Y*A*C*H*T* *A*P*O*L*L*O*

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CREW LIST (Continued)

FLAG ADMIN ORG

<snip>

DIVISION FOUR (36)

DAN SIGAL - STUDENT MATERIALS, MAINT. & SUPPLY
LT OTTO ROOS - CLASS X
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
SEA ORGANIZATION

VOL IV NO. 108
WEDS 21 APR 1971

*Y*A*C*H*T* *A*P*O*L*L*O*

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CREW LIST (Continued)

FLAG ADMIN ORG

<snip>

DIVISION FOUR (36)

DAN SIGAL - STUDENT MATERIALS, MAINT. & SUPPLY
LT OTTO ROOS - CLASS X

Oh too funny!
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
SEA ORGANIZATION

VOL IV NO. 108
WEDS 21 APR 1971

*Y*A*C*H*T* *A*P*O*L*L*O*

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CREW LIST (Continued)

FLAG ADMIN ORG

<snip>

DIVISION FOUR (36)

DAN SIGAL - STUDENT MATERIALS, MAINT. & SUPPLY
LT OTTO ROOS - CLASS X
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long after I had left the ship. In April 1971 we had moved the AO to St Hill and I was in Oz. We never got to see Flag OOD's..

Like I said, Dan who???
 

ozzie

Patron with Honors
I knew Dan Sigal. I was also there when Otto was offloaded.
Dan Sigal was full of himself if he said that. He had nothing to do with it as far as I know - and as far as I recall he ended up in the Galley.

Oh yes I remember Dan........ the galley guy.

Ozzie
 

ThisFenceHurts

Patron with Honors
Thank you all for your replies. I suspected Dan was full of it when I heard him tell the story at the Sandcastle several years back. He was one of the most arrogant guys I ever met. Did not allow his family (his wife, Pat, or Pam, cannot recall, was a very sweet lady who played piano, and he had two children that were also nice kids) to celebrate Christmas because he was Jewish...yet HE WENT UP TO NY AND SOLD CHRISTMAS TREES during the holiday season...
 
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