No Mental Image Pictures?

[AnonyMary]

We all see part of this place. The part we elect to see is the part we elect to see, no matter why. One can create a universe within oneself with a myriad of machinations designed around one's own system. But you're still in the "larger" system.

One can look outside human existence, or accept a certain portion of it as "true" and go on with life inside. There's no right or wrong to it. But there is a bigger universe no matter how chooses to operate.

, that is so ignorant, so discriminatory. Go volunteer for a few days at a neuro rehab center and get some reality on this. Spend a week trying to not remember faces and get a reverse idea of what it's like, say, to live not recognizing people you see every day or remembering what you did the day before; or what color your house is.... TBI Brain damage is brain damage and it takes years of rehab in many cases to make progress if progress can occur at all.

These people struggle to get around their impairments and limitations every waking moment and you reduce their reality to some esoteric notion.

 

[nexus100]

, that is so ignorant, so discriminatory. Go volunteer for a few days at a neuro rehab center and get some reality on this. Spend a week trying to not remember faces and get a reverse idea of what it's like, say, to live not recognizing people you see every day or remembering what you did the day before; or what color your house is.... TBI Brain damage is brain damage and it takes years of rehab in many cases to make progress if progress can occur at all.

These people struggle to get around their impairments and limitations every waking moment and you reduce their reality to some esoteric notion.

I'm not sure where that came from, but you're welcome to it!

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Ok, I reread this whole thread and recalled what it was I really wanted to comment when I sidetracked myself earlier.. (damned alzheimer!)

Hi everyone,

in a recent thread in the "my story from inside scn" section of this board two users claim to have no "Mental Image Pictures" at all <snip>

Has to be a misunderstood.. How do those guys manage to write on this here messageboard? - They'd need a 'mental image picture' to find and recognize their computers? - And an impressively complex 'mental image picture' of the english language, all the words, all the letters, spellings and grammar... And they'd need a 'mental image picture' of what it feels like, and what to do, when they need to take a crap.. Before we had that 'mental image picture', when we were little cute babies, we just crapped in our pants and complained to mom!

So what did Hubturd mean when he said: 'mental image pictures'?

He meant only 'mental image pictures' connected with engrams and other 'case' phenomena... So those guys who claim to gave no 'mental image pictures' are really saying that they have no engrams, implants or secondaries. That was the expected result from Dianetcs auditing, when 'Clear'.

(Sheesh! - I'm explaining Hubbardian mindboggeling! - I profusely apologize to my fans! I've not gone off my rails! - I still think Hubbard was a raving lunatic!)

'Mental image picture' is a rather clunky and unneccesary term anyway. We have words like: 'Memory', 'recall' and 'remember', which is what it is when it's a factual past experience.. 'Imagination' when it's something we make up or fantasize.

 

[Marcabian Invader]

Thx for all your responses!

The situation with some Scientologists, that becomes a personal crisis for them, is that they don't see "mental image pictures." From this the conclusion is made that the person must be either a "Black 5" or "occluded case" (in really bad shape), or a "Clear" (in really good shape.) If "Clear" - and having never had any auditing, or none that is regarded in Scientology as producing Clears - then they must be a past life Clear. This leads to the conclusion that they were audited by Hubbard to Clear in 1947.

The emphasis is on the visual. In Dianetics one is asked - or asks - "What do you see?"

Added to the visio are the rest of the "perceptics" but, in Scientology, visio is primary.

On some occasions an auditor may use an e-meter response or read (a "fall" on the dial, usually) as a signal to ask, "What do you see?"

Not seeing "mental image pictures," in Dianetics and Sceintology, is a sign that something is very wrong or very right.

Since Scientology, in the minds of Scientologists, equates with their own survival and well being for "the next endless trillions," this can be taken very seriously indeed.

Ok, let me see if I got that right --

So, a 'picture' to a scn'ist is more sort of like something you're supposed to come up with during an auditing session when asked "what do you see?". And if you can't because you're like "psychologically blocked" or whatever you are "having no pictures".

Maybe, somehow like in a class test situation when you're having what is called a blackout (?)...

Right direction?

 

[Marcabian Invader]

Thx, Schwimmel, I totally get what you're saying.

It strikes me that when I fiddle with this subject of scn it's often that when something that's made to sound very dramatical, like almost supernatural or psychic phenomena - later when I try to cut through the reality of it it becomes a seemingly rather "profane" issue to me. That's almost a little bit dissapointing. Same thing when it comes to gains in scn or so called "OT powers".
I guess that's maybe part of what gets people in - you get plenty of promises and explanations packed in lots of spiritualized yadda-yadda and spacey sounding language and that's really appealing to people who are already into esotheric issues. In the end you get something which can be good for you, but is far from the expectations you might have when first reading about it...

Like "cause over MEST" - "yeah, it's not meant like you can travel through time, do telekinesis or that sort of thing, it's more like a different state of beeing, very powerful, feels great, you should try it!"
In the end - at best you have a person responsible over his own life and able to steer things in a direction the way he wants them to be - but that's not a goal limited to scn. After all it's only he himself who did that and an e-meter is an outdated lie detector, only perceived as a powerful device because it's seen as part the whole thing someone assigns his betterment to.

Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.

Your apparent definition of "picture" is limiting.

In the world of Hubbard refer to the Dianetic Axioms where he clarifies for the student what is meant by "picture."

Well, as of now, to me it seems more like the apparent definition of "picture" in the scn-context is limited to what I first thought of it...
Sorry, your answer sounds to me like "what do your materials state?" So the reason I have a question can only be that I have something misunderstood and there would be no question if I would have entirely comprehended what Hubbo has clearly explained...(?)

I thought it is basically that simple - everything a being has ever experienced and/or perceived "on the track" is recorded, and those records are called "Mental Image Pictures", "Facsimilies" or whatever. Therefore I thought this is all about explainig how what us "wogs" call 'Memory' works. Feel free to resolve my limitations at any time...

 

[Challenge]

MI, I see you've done your homework

"Pictures" is perhaps an unfortunate word to have been used by Hubbard; but I don't know what other word might have been chosen at the time.

In actuality, what we are dealing with on this subject is "spiritual impressions," or put another way "impressions recorded in/on you spiritually."

The phenomena is that we as spiritual Beings have been involved in events, impacts, et al that have left an impression in/on us. That's one way to express the phenomenon. The other way to express it would be to say that as a result of our contact with events/impacts our spiritual condition (as extant at any point in time) got altered, and that alteration "lives" on until reversed or "erased."

The "three dimensional" aspect of some pictures referred to above would be better stated in the terms that the recorded image/impression of past events is three dimensional and holographic. When they go live one can find oneself in the thing and it can be as real as the PT physical universe . . . but not necessarily as "solid." The image can appear to be throughout you as a Being and you throughout it. And you can experience, perceive, see smell etc all of its content. One incident image/picture I encountered (the description of which is on ESMB) had me experiencing the motion of the sails of the men-'o-wars of the early 19th century event.

The confusion that arises in this subject is due to the fact that lots of folks do not get their past events 3DH. They only get them as flat 2D "pictures." Some folks have so avoided, altered, denied, suppressed and/or otherwise occluded these records of their past existence that they say there is "nothing there," and/or otherwise say all this is bullshit. Some folks have solved the "unconfrontablity" of the issue with the solution of avoidance of such an extent that they are totally absent from their past unwanted experiences, and so they too will assert it's all bullshit and that there is nothing there.

So, to answer the question in other terms, one could say: some folks are aware of the records of their past existence and experiences, and others are not.

As to the "mind?" Well that is a construct we spiritual Being have created to handle, control and store all this junk we did not and do not want to now experience.

Recovering one's willingness and ability to experience and know "anything" and to be responsible for and in control of such, is what has you free from being effect of it and overwhelmed by it. That state is attainable.

Rog

O I love this post! It's so cool to have an explanation from one who knows what he's talking about.

Challenge

 

[AnonyMary]

I'm not sure where that came from, but you're welcome to it!

Came from here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=363344&postcount=20

 

[Ted]

Thx, Schwimmel, I totally get what you're saying.

It strikes me that when I fiddle with this subject of scn it's often that when something that's made to sound very dramatical, like almost supernatural or psychic phenomena - later when I try to cut through the reality of it it becomes a seemingly rather "profane" issue to me. That's almost a little bit dissapointing. Same thing when it comes to gains in scn or so called "OT powers".
I guess that's maybe part of what gets people in - you get plenty of promises and explanations packed in lots of spiritualized yadda-yadda and spacey sounding language and that's really appealing to people who are already into esotheric issues. In the end you get something which can be good for you, but is far from the expectations you might have when first reading about it...

Like "cause over MEST" - "yeah, it's not meant like you can travel through time, do telekinesis or that sort of thing, it's more like a different state of beeing, very powerful, feels great, you should try it!"
In the end - at best you have a person responsible over his own life and able to steer things in a direction the way he wants them to be - but that's not a goal limited to scn. After all it's only he himself who did that and an e-meter is an outdated lie detector, only perceived as a powerful device because it's seen as part the whole thing someone assigns his betterment to.

Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.



Well, as of now, to me it seems more like the apparent definition of "picture" in the scn-context is limited to what I first thought of it...
Sorry, your answer sounds to me like "what do your materials state?" So the reason I have a question can only be that I have something misunderstood and there would be no question if I would have entirely comprehended what Hubbo has clearly explained...(?)

I thought it is basically that simple - everything a being has ever experienced and/or perceived "on the track" is recorded, and those records are called "Mental Image Pictures", "Facsimilies" or whatever. Therefore I thought this is all about explainig how what us "wogs" call 'Memory' works. Feel free to resolve my limitations at any time...

Resolve your limitations? Sorry. No time; no interest. I think you are just fine the way you are.

Schwimmy gave as good an answer as you will likely get.

 

[Veda]

Thx for all your responses!

Ok, let me see if I got that right --

So, a 'picture' to a scn'ist is more sort of like something you're supposed to come up with during an auditing session when asked "what do you see?". And if you can't because you're like "psychologically blocked" or whatever you are "having no pictures".

Maybe, somehow like in a class test situation when you're having what is called a blackout (?)...

Right direction?

Pretty much.

Most of the content of my posts on this thread address, one way or another, the concerns of the person who started the original thread http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=15822, which is also linked by you in the opening post of this thread. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=361082&postcount=28

I hope my posts, and the others' posts, addressing this area, have helped this and other persons with similar concerns.

 

[RogerB]

O I love this post! It's so cool to have an explanation from one who knows what he's talking about.

Challenge

Thank you Challenge, it is equally cool to be acknowledged by someone who understands what the hell I was talking about . . . it can feel lonely, on occasion, talking into the wind!

And thank you too, Gadfly. Nice to know I struck a chord for you.

You see, most folks think these picture things are something "separate to them." Of course, separation from areas of unpleasantness is one of our chronic spiritual solutions

Rog

 

[OldAuditor]

What you see is what you get...

In one of my early sessions in Life Repair, I turned on a full color 3D picture so intense that it replaced the right side of the auditing room. I was admiring it silently while the auditor kept chattering away, "what's happening?" What are you looking at? etc.

It faded away as he drew my attention back to what he wanted to do and I have never seen an image in that detail since. I think that was what LRH would call revivification.

All of my own mental images since have been wispier and less substantial as time went on. Some have been more like a concept than a "visual" thing.

On the other hand, I spent 20 years in the chair as an auditor and after awhile I realized that I could see what the PC was looking at. I would ask a question and in many cases, I would see what the PC was looking at and could also see what his attention was on and what it wasn't on.

You can get the idea of a PC standing over the crumpled body of his wife while admiring the flowers and the blue sky overhead. He would report that he was standing in a garden and it was a beautiful day.

Gentle questioning about what else was there would often turn up information about what was underfoot.

On the other hand, I experienced PCs that had little or no perception of mental image pictures. If they couldn't see them, I generally couldn't either.

Discussion of whether things exist or don't exist seem to depend on the perceptions of the people involved. If you have never experienced seeing the mental images of others, you are free to dismiss my comments as the ravings of the terminally demented.

On the other hand, if you are capable of seeing mental image pictures, we could discuss how cats manipulate us by beaming pictures at us. If you have never experienced the phenomena of having a mental image of cat food pop into your head, you have missed an interesting aspect of being a pet owner.

___________________________
http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com

 

[RogerB]

In one of my early sessions in Life Repair, I turned on a full color 3D picture so intense that it replaced the right side of the auditing room. I was admiring it silently while the auditor kept chattering away, "what's happening?" What are you looking at? etc.

It faded away as he drew my attention back to what he wanted to do and I have never seen an image in that detail since. I think that was what LRH would call revivification.

All of my own mental images since have been wispier and less substantial as time went on. Some have been more like a concept than a "visual" thing.

On the other hand, I spent 20 years in the chair as an auditor and after awhile I realized that I could see what the PC was looking at. I would ask a question and in many cases, I would see what the PC was looking at and could also see what his attention was on and what it wasn't on.

You can get the idea of a PC standing over the crumpled body of his wife while admiring the flowers and the blue sky overhead. He would report that he was standing in a garden and it was a beautiful day.

Gentle questioning about what else was there would often turn up information about what was underfoot.

On the other hand, I experienced PCs that had little or no perception of mental image pictures. If they couldn't see them, I generally couldn't either.

Discussion of whether things exist or don't exist seem to depend on the perceptions of the people involved. If you have never experienced seeing the mental images of others, you are free to dismiss my comments as the ravings of the terminally demented.

On the other hand, if you are capable of seeing mental image pictures, we could discuss how cats manipulate us by beaming pictures at us. If you have never experienced the phenomena of having a mental image of cat food pop into your head, you have missed an interesting aspect of being a pet owner.

___________________________
http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com

Nice! OldAuditor. Good honest, informative post. "What you see is what you get" . . . or could we say: What you get is what you see!

On your note that the first time you experienced a 3DH reviv it was so very real, and then subsequent times old experiences/events came up they were less substantial, is a phenomena I've noticed as well, though some later revivs were also as substantial as the first.

One thing I would say is likely, is that the first time it happens and when you stay present and at cause in your relationship with/over the "image" . . . that is the point where I found I "blew my Diantetics case" and became "at cause over mental image pictures." I've had a number of revivs of other areas of my past existence occur out of formal session, and they are quite interesting, but do not phase one . . . it is simply another part of my existence I've recovered and put back under my knowing control.

This has led to me (and I see this with clients and others whose case advice I am responsible for) to be able to comfortably operate free from being subject to being overwhelmed and controlled by the content of my "mind" or recorded past experience.

And that is a nice state of Being to be in.

Rog

 

[OldAuditor]

What you see is what you get...

The 3D revivification occurred on an HC Pluspoint - Outpoint list.

No thinking was involved. Many minutes of boring questions that had no significance to me and then, BLAM!

The wall melted away and a WWI tank was churning its way up a slope right in front of me. The auditor pulled me out of the incident before I could enjoy the view and that was the last bright image I ever saw.

Somehow I got permanently disconnected from my Dianetic case and attested to Clear shortly thereafter.

I've had PCs revivify in session and the images I saw were brighter than my own mental image pictures. It is a curious phenomena.

As far as not being able to see images, I've had PCs who heard sounds but had no visio in an incident. I've experienced thoughts in an incident where there was nothing that could be seen.

Once your PC know what to look for, it doesn't seem to matter what the actual content is.

Auditor asks was there an earlier?... and PC says, "I hear someone laughing" or "my chest hurts real bad!"... and off you go.

What an adventure!

 

[Ted]

The 3D revivification occurred on an HC Pluspoint - Outpoint list.

No thinking was involved. Many minutes of boring questions that had no significance to me and then, BLAM!

The wall melted away and a WWI tank was churning its way up a slope right in front of me. The auditor pulled me out of the incident before I could enjoy the view and that was the last bright image I ever saw.

Somehow I got permanently disconnected from my Dianetic case and attested to Clear shortly thereafter.

I've had PCs revivify in session and the images I saw were brighter than my own mental image pictures. It is a curious phenomena.

As far as not being able to see images, I've had PCs who heard sounds but had no visio in an incident. I've experienced thoughts in an incident where there was nothing that could be seen.

Once your PC know what to look for, it doesn't seem to matter what the actual content is.

Auditor asks was there an earlier?... and PC says, "I hear someone laughing" or "my chest hurts real bad!"... and off you go.

What an adventure!

Some pc's have unreasonable expectations.

Example: In the incident, a person walks into a pitch dark room. Gets bonked on the head from behind with a club. Drops to floor unconscious.

The "picture" might contain many perceptions, temperature, smell, emotion, earlier similar impressions, etc., but visio is "all black," as it should be. As the picture develops by removing pain and unconsciousness, an understanding of the situation comes to view. This leads to a resolution or an earlier incident that will resolve.

The writing in DMSMH would have us believe that all a being's troubles are contained in engrams of things that have happened to the pc. This is proven by scientology itself to be untrue. Sooner or later, sorting through pictures to find the source of one's trouble winds up in a dead end. That's not to say the journey was not fantastic, mine certainly was. It is just saying that Dianetics is limited in scope and to whom it would beneficially apply.

I agree with you. It can be quite an adventure.

 

[RogerB]

I Agree Too!

Some pc's have unreasonable expectations.

Example: In the incident, a person walks into a pitch dark room. Gets bonked on the head from behind with a club. Drops to floor unconscious.

The "picture" might contain many perceptions, temperature, smell, emotion, earlier similar impressions, etc., but visio is "all black," as it should be. As the picture develops by removing pain and unconsciousness, an understanding of the situation comes to view. This leads to a resolution or an earlier incident that will resolve.

The writing in DMSMH would have us believe that all a being's troubles are contained in engrams of things that have happened to the pc. This is proven by scientology itself to be untrue. Sooner or later, sorting through pictures to find the source of one's trouble winds up in a dead end. That's not to say the journey was not fantastic, mine certainly was. It is just saying that Dianetics is limited in scope and to whom it would beneficially apply.

I agree with you. It can be quite an adventure.

I agree too . . . even three!

Rog

 

[OldAuditor]

Running the overt flow can help in some cases

"The writing in DMSMH would have us believe that all a being's troubles are contained in engrams of things that have happened to the pc. This is proven by scientology itself to be untrue. Sooner or later, sorting through pictures to find the source of one's trouble winds up in a dead end."

Running overts in Book One or Dianetics usually avoids the dead end.

It is interesting to see how easily they run even in a Book One session.It probably has something to do with granting beingness to the PC.

 

[Panda Termint]

The Dn Pictures and Masses Remedy usually does the trick.

 

[Ted]

"The writing in DMSMH would have us believe that all a being's troubles are contained in engrams of things that have happened to the pc. This is proven by scientology itself to be untrue. Sooner or later, sorting through pictures to find the source of one's trouble winds up in a dead end."

Running overts in Book One or Dianetics usually avoids the dead end.

It is interesting to see how easily they run even in a Book One session.It probably has something to do with granting beingness to the PC.

Granting "overtingness" to the pc loosens things up considerably.

Sending the pc to Ethics for his reports to auditor/sec checker on session data does not loosen things up.

 

[RogerB]

Granting "overtingness" to the pc loosens things up considerably.

Sending the pc to Ethics for his reports to auditor/sec checker on session data does not loosen things up.

Right on, there Ted!

Superimposing any consequence for having gotten off one's "dones" will collapse the PC willingness and ability to truly smoothly free him/herself from their entrapping past.

That is what the constant "threat" of ethics "handlings" as a consequence of what comes off in session does. And the dunces in the "church" cannot see this . . . and so they are accomplishing one or both of two things: subjugated and propitiative people, or unhandled cases encysted with built up charge and/or producing upsets and eventual enemies.

Auditing used to be a "forgivingness" action . . . . look at it now! Heh!

Rog

 

[Ted]

Right on, there Ted!

Superimposing any consequence for having gotten off one's "dones" will collapse the PC willingness and ability to truly smoothly free him/herself from their entrapping past.

That is what the constant "threat" of ethics "handlings" as a consequence of what comes off in session does. And the dunces in the "church" cannot see this . . . and so they are accomplishing one or both of two things: subjugated and propitiative people, or unhandled cases encysted with built up charge and/or producing upsets and eventual enemies.

Auditing used to be a "forgivingness" action . . . . look at it now! Heh!

Rog

If it is true that life is basically a static, then any assumption of be or, heaven forbid, communication is an "overt" act.

The church is obsessed with DONES. However, a not done is harmonic to static and thus closer to truth.

I believe the reason the church is obsessed with DONES is because in our society we usually do not punish bystanders, even if those bystanders could have gotten involved and prevented a crime. A DONE with witnesses is prosecutable.

Nope, no punishment or correction for the bystander. It is much simpler to nail the sucker who is being there and communicating.

Interestingly, and to add to the confusion, as a being gets involved with self-interests and the Dynamics, an action deemed a crime in one situation can also be laudable in another. Properly delivered, good auditing, and in this instance, confessionals, grants the pc space enough to separate out, see what is and what isn't, and reevaluate his relationships, actions, and inactions.

Like you, Rog, I always regarded the confessional as an act of forgiveness with no consequence for having confessed.