Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Didn't Jesus cast out demons?
Tai Chi and body thetans
- Thread starter Lemuria
- Start date
Didn't Jesus cast out demons?
nexus100
Gold Meritorious Patron
Something is there. On Idenics the idea of attachment was addressed in a fashion. Most things on the body were just part of the process for me. But one, this 3 faces of Eve awful being, came off me. Really really really bizarre. And it came back a few days later, to my room and I told it to get out and it did. I don't think I was imagining it. I never did OT levels. But I have to accept what happened. It was like taking a coat off, and an incredibly ugly horrible one you would never put on sanely. God, I am glad it isn't there.
Interesting you mention that. Did you know that the traditional Catholic method of exorcising demons was by getting them to identify themselves - getting them to reveal who they really were.
Just like NOTs technique.
Terril park
Sponsor
Something I wrote on this a few years back.
NOTS AND THE BIBLE
The Xenu story "body thetans" and Nots auditing has come in for much ridicule . Here.I’d like to put aside the Xenu story,perhaps class that as mythology, ,and look at the relationship between Nots and the excorcising of demons as presented in the Gospels. One point about the Bible is that it is as well as a religious text,a historical document. Further an authorititive one in that there are several accounts of the same person and events from multiple sources. There are many references to exorcisms,including multiple possession. There is the question of what if any are the differences between a demon and a "body thetan" or entity.They are both non material yet alive in some way, both affect the possessee adversely in some way,both can be gotten rid of by simple commands, both can exist as multiples or clusters. Collectively they seem to have troubled man throughout his existance.As far as I can see there is not such a lot of difference. Considering the Gospels have come down to us through many versions, translations ect,none of which were contemporary with Christ, there is remarkable similarity, to Nots auditing, if that was also the original intention of Christ.
"In the evening at sundown,they would bring all the sick and demon possessed to him……On such occasions he cured many people afflicted with various diseases and drove out many demons." Mark 1-32.
"And summoning his 12 deciples he gave them authority to drive out unclean spirits and to heal every disease and every ailment." Matthew 10-1
"And his reputation spread through the whole of Syria.They brought him evertone who was ill,who suffered from any kind of disease or was in intense pain,who was possessed,who was epileptic,or a parylytic,and he cured them" .Mathew 4-24.
These are a few examples. These show that driving out demons was a separate goal different to curing ,epilepsy,disease,paralysis,pain ect.This was probably relieving the person with regard to mental or spiritual issues. Councelling if you like which is still practiced today in confessional and in exorcism.
CLUSTERS
In some instances multiple possession is encountered and handled.This is parrallelled by the auditing of "clusters" on Nots.
"Mary,the one from Magdala,from whom seven Demons had taken their leave…." Luke 8-2
"Jesus questioned him :"What is your name?" "Legion" ,he said,because many demons had entered him.They kept begging himnot to order them to depart into the abyss……and they bargained with him to let them enter those pigs.And he agreed.Then the demons came out of the fellow and entered the pigs…." Luke 8-30
"When an unclean spirit leaves a person,it wanders through waterless places in search of a resting place.When it dosn’t find one it says,I will go back to the home I left.It then returns,and finds and finds it swept and refurbished.Next it goes out and brings back seven other spirits more vile than itself,who enter and settle in there.So that person ends up worse of than when he or she started." Luke 11 -24
It seems multiple possession was quite common.The last reference seems to be giving an explanation of why that would be.It is also parralel to the phenomena of having audited one of a cluster using Nots ,there are several more entities who have the same pictures,incidents copied among themselves.And they remain.
TEACHING
Christ actually taught his Deciples to also drive out demons. See mathew 10-1 above.
Also see below Mark 9-38 , Jesus is called teacher.
"He called his 12 together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to heal diseases." Luke 9-1
"He formed a group of twelve to be his companions,and to be sent out to speak,and to have authority to drive out demons." Mark-14
Also disciple means one who recieves instruction.As I understand it Christ was a man so could not rely on devine powers to excorcise demons. He used words, much as auditors do. His disciples certainly were not devine and he taught them how to drive out demons. It also seemed an important part of his mission. Bringing his version of the "Tech" to people, perhaps?
COMMANDS
Well in Luke 8-30 you have him bargaining with demons,to let them go into pigs. Here is another example.
"But Jesus yelled at it,"Shut up and get out of him." Mark 1-25.
This latter is a bit abrupt. In that it is similar to the "Thetan hand" technique of Nots.
The Scholars of the Westar institute:-
Jesus undoubtedly made remarks during the exorcism of demons. Because they were not incantations or magical formulae, the disciples did not preserve his actual words. As a consequence,scholars conclude that words such as those found in 1-25 represent the story tellers’s idea of what Jesus would have said in expelling a demon. This cold mean these words were simple questions or commands such as found in auditing. As in everyday use,and thus not remarked on. They are lost it seems unless new archaelogical treasures are discovered.
SQUIRRELLING
Here is a section from Mark 9-38
"John said to him,"Teacher,we saw someone driving out demons in your name,so we tried to stop him,because he wasn’t one of our adherents" Jesus responded,"Don’t stop him!……….In fact whoever is not against us is on our side……."
Sigh!…..If only COS had this same attitude. Note the addressing of Jesus as Teacher. It looks like Christ is teaching an early form of nots here.
CONFIDENTIALITY
From Luke 8-16 "No one lights a lamp and covers it with a pot or puts it undera bed;rather one puts it on a lampstand,so that those who come in can see the light. After all, there is nothing hidden that won’t be brought to light,nor secreted away that won’t be made known and exposed."
Here is another point COS could have learned from.
So those who wish to mock Nots,you get very close to mocking your friends or your own tradition. Religion generally, and Christianity in particular has been usurped and taken over by Rulers governments and different factions. One well known example being the Take over by Constantine, in 325 A.D , who instigated the Vote on whether God was 1 or 3,by a council of bishops at Niceae. Thus some parts of the tradition are given prominence over others at different times. I was very surprised at the very many refs.to casting out of demons. I have only quoted a fraction of them. Yet this tradition is not spoken much about. I was raised in Christian schools althiough I am not one.
I was never told much of this, in fact can remember nothing.
bb Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Cold Wind
New Member
Franz Bardon, Hermetics author, mentions some of "Larva" and other similar stuff, entities, and spirits, Elementals, and the differences, when speaking of deep intense sensory thinking.
there is much there concerning elementals in the body, which one creates, or some that are really there, and he explains it somewhat...
In his first book, initiation into hermetics, there is a drill of dong something similar to TRO, sitting in a strait back chair, holding absolutely still and noticing all ticks and such, till one can without falling asleep, be there comfortably, he stresses this as very important to accomplish and the books are supposed to be a step by step progression and there are tough assists as far as rubbing a towel across the body and a brush in the mornings till the skin turns slightly red..it is similar to increasing ones havingness, energy exchange.....the removal of elementals from th body, and astral body...there is the casting out of entities, and the banishment of entities, or destruction of entities, as well as the creation of entities...shielding ones body from entities... Using entities for various purposes.
But he seems ethical in approach...less inclines towards the controlling of others with such.
They are texts on Magic, and Hubbard researched this stuff some it seems.
Many who know of Crowley know of Bardon.
Bardon's texts seem easier to read.
They may be cleaner as well.
Don't know.
So entities have been mentioned before of various kinds before Scientology.
Some of it is interesting.
I am not a Bardonite or anything, and am not an expert on such, but see that it has been mentioned before Scio. the existence of entities, that can be a problem, cause neurosis, whatever.
It isn't anything new really being Scio. beign the first to state it..
But i never spent much time in Scio.
Bardons books are in the public domain I believe.
I'd start with the first of his books. Search Larva, if you like.
just giving a Reference.
I am not trying to validate Scio. or BT's..
I am not saying go and join a Bardon group.
Just giving a Reference.
Terl
Patron with Honors
Uhg, such an informative thread for me. Thanks guys. I love this place.
Here's what is confusing me about BTs at the moment. If they exist in my space, do they have control over me? I realise we may be in effect of them, physically and perhaps mentally, but myself for example, I feel like I have certain personalities with certain people. There is a certain way I act around everyone I know. I basically only feel like my true self around some close family. Could these other "indentities" be other beings, or do I have it wrong? I never thought a person could sort of "control" me, without me noticing. Or is everyone just made up of mulitiple identites and you could be just burried somewhere beneath them? I hope I'm asking this clearly. Probably sounding quite silly but I just can't quit thinking about that til I ask.
In short, in Scn we are lead to believe we are thetans, with bodies. In actual fact are we "using" this body with others, or am I using it as an individual thetan with other thetans lying dormant and effecting me in "other" ways?
Here's what is confusing me about BTs at the moment. If they exist in my space, do they have control over me? I realise we may be in effect of them, physically and perhaps mentally, but myself for example, I feel like I have certain personalities with certain people. There is a certain way I act around everyone I know. I basically only feel like my true self around some close family. Could these other "indentities" be other beings, or do I have it wrong? I never thought a person could sort of "control" me, without me noticing. Or is everyone just made up of mulitiple identites and you could be just burried somewhere beneath them? I hope I'm asking this clearly. Probably sounding quite silly but I just can't quit thinking about that til I ask.
In short, in Scn we are lead to believe we are thetans, with bodies. In actual fact are we "using" this body with others, or am I using it as an individual thetan with other thetans lying dormant and effecting me in "other" ways?
Every mish-mash way you can think of is possible. Attached to body, to "thetan", confused identitiy etc etc etc. It's all good in this stew. Sure you will always think that you are yourself. It's just that different "selves" are thinking it at different times.
Unpicking it takes patience and focus. Starting off by regarding them as being fleas and parasites will block your path completely. In my own opinion the best approach to it all is OT levels up to 3 thoroughly done, followed by Excalibur. Others may have different views on this.
Unpicking it takes patience and focus. Starting off by regarding them as being fleas and parasites will block your path completely. In my own opinion the best approach to it all is OT levels up to 3 thoroughly done, followed by Excalibur. Others may have different views on this.
Terl
Patron with Honors
If only it were so easy, Leon. I wonder who wrote that. Was it me, interested in the freezone and continuing my auditing? or was it me, who thinks the whole idea of BTs is batshit fucking crazy? Or was it me, who could care less?? Or was it me, who just isn't sure anymore?
hehe
Kidding aside, this thread has helped me to understand the situation better and not be so afraid of it, if it's real.
Neo
Silver Meritorious Patron
I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. At about the age of 10 years old I witnessed something that still influences my thinking on this matter today.
In the back hall of the church building one sunday, one of the church elders, a man of at least 6 foot 6 height, and built like a tank, was praying for a female parishioner. She was 5 foot at most. The purpose of the prayer was to 'cast out a demon' (exorcism IOW). I had a view of this, although I wasn't supposed to, and being a curious child I kept watching. What happened next is what confuses me.
The women threw the church elder away from her, a distance of at least 2 metres. She physically did not have this strength. He called in several more males to help hold her down. At which point I was noticed, and had to leave.
I know what I saw. But I also since have rejected the notion of demons. And when I encountered the concept of BTs, I start doing mental back flips.
I am still searching for the 'simple explanation' for this incident. I don't have one. At best I go for it being 'mental phenomena', some part of the mind doing something we are still trying to understand. As for the concept of entities - well I struggle with this (thus my sarcasm).
Neo
Neo
Silver Meritorious Patron
Damn it, that makes two of us.
Veda
Sponsor
In Scientology, "BTs" are not just spirits, or energies, or influences, "BTs" are considered to be degraded beings, beings that are a problem (no Guardian Angels in Scientology's OT levels), beings, according to Scientology, that have "been sent down the chute (dwindling spiral) by the Psychs" (ancient psychiatrists.)
As for OT 3, well, that's been covered, but saying "OT 3" is primarily about "exorcism" is misleading - Both the Scientology NOTs levels and OT 3 contain loads of significance - and accepting that significance occurs, sometimes, unconsciously, so it's overlooked, but - as so often occurs in Scientology - a person is told one thing is happening, or being done, and yet something else is happening or being done.
And Ron's Orgs 'Excalibur', last time I looked, had to do (paraphrase) with "getting face to face with Xenu" - confronting Xenu himself, and Xenu's associates. (A kind of Super OT 3.)
Take a look at those who've spent years on NOTs, how are most of them doing? Are they Full OT yet? That was the promise: that NOTs removed the final barrier to Full OT.
Guardian Angels, influences, spirits, energies, possession, exorcism are interesting areas.
The chapter 'Are You Haunted?' in 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' might be worth checking out.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637577/ref=sib_dp_pt
As for OT 3, well, that's been covered, but saying "OT 3" is primarily about "exorcism" is misleading - Both the Scientology NOTs levels and OT 3 contain loads of significance - and accepting that significance occurs, sometimes, unconsciously, so it's overlooked, but - as so often occurs in Scientology - a person is told one thing is happening, or being done, and yet something else is happening or being done.
And Ron's Orgs 'Excalibur', last time I looked, had to do (paraphrase) with "getting face to face with Xenu" - confronting Xenu himself, and Xenu's associates. (A kind of Super OT 3.)
Take a look at those who've spent years on NOTs, how are most of them doing? Are they Full OT yet? That was the promise: that NOTs removed the final barrier to Full OT.
Guardian Angels, influences, spirits, energies, possession, exorcism are interesting areas.
The chapter 'Are You Haunted?' in 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' might be worth checking out.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637577/ref=sib_dp_pt
Terril park
Sponsor
So what were on the cover of the old 8-8008, The shield and sword carrying people with wings?
On OT2 I separated from someone who was theta clear. Totally happy to be there without a body. The most incredible flows of affinity I've ever experienced.
I at first thought " Guardian Angel". Later I realised it was I who was the
"guardian angel" and my little bit of knowledge had freed her. She came back from time to time to check up on me. Her turn to be the guardian angel.
OT 2 &3 are high affinity levels, and can be lots of fun.
Veda
Sponsor
Hubbard made reference to the idea of a Guardian Angel - briefly - during the loose-lipped Crowley and cocaine-inspired PDC lectures, in 1952, and a book-cover reflected that reference, however, there are no positive spiritual beings to be found in Scientology's "OT Level" materials.
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hubbard said it could be either. Personally I go along with the idea that a person could have a being "attached" to him, in his space, a demon or whatever, and would benefit from having that being leave and stop influencing him. But that's just an occasional one, not hundreds, thousands, or millions of the critters in one's immediate space and only influencing oneself and not many others simultaneously.
But what I really want to comment on is this. Hubbard used many different definitions of "thetan" over the years. My general idea when I left the CofS, after 30 years, was that there was the body, a total MEST object, and the thetan, a total, well, theta "thing", that interacted with the body via energy beams in a manner unclear to me except in a theoretical sense. But in line with the Theta-MEST Theory, with me conveniently ignoring Hubbard's statement that it could be wrong, I thought of there being the two more-or-less absolute realms, Theta and MEST, with the theta having properties of no time, space etc., i.e. no MEST qualities to speak of, and the MEST being pretty much MEST, although it did have some bits of consciousness attached in a manner unclear to me.
I get the idea from reading on ESMB that many people (not the lordly Exes who wouldn't touch the idea with a bargepole, not that they would deign to wield one
) have a similar idea, that theta is theta and MEST is MEST and never the twain shall meet. In other words the person, the individual, HAS a body, but IS no part of one.Now I embrace the idea of the "thetan" in a sense vaguely similar to the one Hubbard used in History of Man, the thumb where the sliver in the thumb is the body, commonly called the "aura" today, and described by different authors with differing perceptions of it throughout history. Currently I like the works of Barbara Brennan a lot, and sometimes refer to the illustrations as well as the text in her books. Here is an illustration showing the different layers of the aura, according to her direct perception of them (as opposed to her copying another's description of them, like I am doing).
She says that all seven layers are the person. There are some other parts, even more fine or rarefied, not shown here, but I haven't worked out for myself what exactly one could identify as the individual, and what isn't. But the layers of the aura, that interpenetrate each other and the body, could be considered to be energy bodies. And this runs smack up against Hubbard's idea that theta does not have an energy component.
Anyway, it's a tricky subject. And adopting Hubbard's view of it can lead to difficulties. Yeah, yeah, so what's new?
Paul
Terril park
Sponsor
This is more " black PR positioning" from you.
" Cocaine inspired"
" looose lipped Crowley and cocaine- inspired "
This is ad hominem. Attack the man not the idea.
I just told you of a VERY positive spiritual being I
found on OT levels.
You going to black PR me again? You say i'm
lying?
Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Good writeup Terril (and Leon's above).