The Anatomy of a LRH Apologist: Steve Hall of Scientology-cult.com

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Bullshit! I didn't judge you!

Here is my judgement: DO something.

You talk much, and do nothing.

You spoke about Marty & Mike a lot. - Have YOU put your own chest under CoS bullets?

You speak about Steve Hall's failures now? - How long ago did you say your true name (to speak of anything)?

This IS my judgement. Allen! Come on! Get it straight! Those guys make WAY more than you do here (talking and pointing)

Do you think that L Ron Hubbard used fair game and other GO tactics against regular every day Scientologists and normal every day whistleblowers?

Or do you agree with Steve Hall and the rest of the LRH Apologists that L Ron Hubbard only applied this insanity to "high level" organizations?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
This comes from the thread here on ESMB called "L Ron Hubbard orders R2-45 on 12 People".

r245b.jpg

Question: Were these enemies from "high-level" organizations?

Or were they Scientologists?
 

rhill

Patron with Honors
Here is my judgement: DO something.

You talk much, and do nothing.

Sharing insights is not "doing nothing." Are you going to campaign against all the people who share insights all over the world to stop writing and start "doing something" -- with you as the judge of what qualify as "something"?
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
The people you have mentioned have done a tremendous job of reaching those still in the CoS who would probably not have listened to anything that your or I would have said.

Proof?

If they publicly criticise Hubbard unduly, then they will most likely lose their target audience.

so getting people out consists of keeping them in?

I don’t see how you can claim this as a ‘fact’. I haven’t seen any proof that they are colluding on this. Please don’t confuse supposition with facts.

LOL Ax - you just did the exact same thing.

But I also thought Alanzo is, I think, mistaken about Jeff Hawkins' position. Actually I don't think any of this people are colluding on some sort of PR front. DM is the preferred target because Hubbard is dead and gone. Miscavige is the guy runing things.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was not privvy to all that went on in the Guardians office, but it was a force to be reckoned with. I would be extremely surprised if not all the crew of the sea org in the 60s were not aware of this.

Mary Sue Hubbard was a very hard woman, not only to get along with, but she ruled her department with an iron rod.

Any scientologist who didn't conform to the rules was punished and I don't think for one moment that you had to be a high profile case to be fair gamed. Fair Game was applied harder to someone like Paulette Cooper was because they had the ability to get the message out to the outside world.Any person or group that had the ability to shut scientology down or get L. Ron Hubbard imprisoned was fair game.

The fact that they went to such extremes to keep her quiet, are testament to how paranoid they were of what she might accomplish.

I once heard a conversation between Marysue and another sea org officer. Marysue said " It didn't matter what they had to do, whatever it takes, but shut them up." I was not aware of who she was talking about, but whom ever it was, she meant it. This happened about April/May 1969. I already knew, but overhearing this conversation made me realise they (L. Ron Hubbard, MSH, the sea org, the guardians office, all of it, would do anything and everything they possibly could to ensure that nothing got in the way of keeping scientology and LRH safe.

I was very afraid at the time, I had already seen what they were capable of to their own followers on the ship.

No, you didn't have to be high profile.

Fear, threats and gang bang security checks went a long way into keeping people silent, as did alienating them from everyone and everything they knew.

Part of the Guardian office tactics was to put fear into you, to make sure you never ever spoke out about it.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Bullshit! I didn't judge you!

Here is my judgement: DO something.

You talk much, and do nothing.

You spoke about Marty & Mike a lot. - Have YOU put your own chest under CoS bullets?

You speak about Steve Hall's failures now? - How long ago did you say your true name (to speak of anything)?

This IS my judgement. Allen! Come on! Get it straight! Those guys make WAY more than you do here (talking and pointing)


what are you doing?
 

Feral

Rogue male
I don't mind their complicity. I have to admit that I also had disagreements with the tech and Hubbard that I thought I'd leave out of my repertoire when enlightening people about the CofS.

Almost all of them, to their credit questioned the tech and Hubbard on their own and as a result I don't think there is a Ronbot among them.

I felt this would happen all by itself and I was thrilled when it did.

Basically, the tech and Elron's past just doesn't stand up to a lot of questioning and without the peer pressure of the CofS people will start to question. That kind of pressure cannot be replicated by "The Shack" or "Scientology-cult".

Look what happened in the history of the FZ, folk gradually start to question and apply their intelligence to the sacred cows of Hubbard's writings.

Next thing you know they're eating roast beef.

I see Al's point but think they will be ineffective in protecting Ron and the tech. If the argument is that they're being immoral, well, I think that's a highly philisophical issue and above my pay grade.
 
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Anonycat

Crusader
The cult = slave labor, forced abortions, falsifying legal documents and employee paper trails, imprisonment, and more!

14. I should clarify why I (and others) tolerated such treatment for so long. The ability to tolerate such abusive conditions and treatment are one of the most basic requirements for promotion in the Sea Organization and RTC. We were selected and promoted because we vowed such loyalty and demonstrated it daily. Not unlike a military unit, it is the ability of the Sea Org member to take orders, carry out the assignment and to tolerate self-degrading conditions that ingratiates them to their seniors and to the system. That was why I was promoted so highly and why I then tolerated more. Looking back on it, I cannot believe that I actually tolerated such denigration and such abuse and actually deluded myself that it was for my good as well as the good of others.

SOURCE: http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/jesse_prince_affidavit.html
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was going to stay out of this but just, well ... couldn't :D

I doubt there's any "conspiracy" between Jeff, Marty, Steve, Amy etc etc any more than between Carmel, Feral, Panda and myself.:lol:

If you only knew what OUR relationship can be like....:whistling:

All of the guys in para 2 above have their own audiences they appeal to and some of them attract an aweful lot of heat from DM and his 'bots. Far more than I'd ever like to subject myself to.:yes:

Now I don't care if Marty is planning to be The First Apostle in the Resurrected Church of the Glorification of L. Ron Hubbard (His Most Uniquely Theta Perfection) and his whole shack-led campaign is a dastardly plot designed to enslave any and all escapees from Miscavige's madness.:omg:

(I seriously doubt that Marty has any such aspirations btw.):coolwink:

Once someone is "out" of the Co$, they have the freedom to decide for themselves if they wish to continue with any of the beliefs. It's certainly not up to me or thee to take the moral high-ground and demand they "go all the way out.":no:

I certainly don't agree with all that Marty or Steve say and do but I admire that they are saying AND doing despite the artillery used against them. It's a lot more than any of us here are facing.

tl;dr - I like their style and they are successful in reaching scilons who'd never dream of coming here or listening to any of us here on the "natter boards.":happydance:
 

Div6

Crusader
I was going to stay out of this but just, well ... couldn't :D

I doubt there's any "conspiracy" between Jeff, Marty, Steve, Amy etc etc any more than between Carmel, Feral, Panda and myself.:lol:

If you only knew what OUR relationship can be like....:whistling:

All of the guys in para 2 above have their own audiences they appeal to and some of them attract an aweful lot of heat from DM and his 'bots. Far more than I'd ever like to subject myself to.:yes:

Now I don't care if Marty is planning to be The First Apostle in the Resurrected Church of the Glorification of L. Ron Hubbard (His Most Uniquely Theta Perfection) and his whole shack-led campaign is a dastardly plot designed to enslave any and all escapees from Miscavige's madness.:omg:

(I seriously doubt that Marty has any such aspirations btw.):coolwink:

Once someone is "out" of the Co$, they have the freedom to decide for themselves if they wish to continue with any of the beliefs. It's certainly not up to me or thee to take the moral high-ground and demand they "go all the way out.":no:

I certainly don't agree with all that Marty or Steve say and do but I admire that they are saying AND doing despite the artillery used against them. It's a lot more than any of us here are facing.

tl;dr - I like their style and they are successful in reaching scilons who'd never dream of coming here or listening to any of us here on the "natter boards.":happydance:

Why do I get the feelling that the underlying context of this thread where Alanzo is stirring the pot again,is his perceived loss of "market share" in the blogosphere?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
LRH Apologists overlook the writings of LRH and see only the actions of David Miscavige. And try to get others to do the same through many different tactics.

While at the same time, even though L Ron Hubbard is dead, they still listen to his lectures, quote his writing, and act out his technology and policy.

LRH Apologists just want you to think that LRH is dead and that's all there is to it, and that you are stupid if you think that anyone follows the fair game policies of a dead man, or that the man when he was alive ever really meant what he wrote or said, or forced others to take him seriously - or else.

LRH Apologists revise history and keep people in the dark. And this keeps a lot of people dramatizing the crimogenic materials of Scientology.

There are people who are not LRH Apologists, who recognize the sickness of L Ron Hubbard, and who take what they want of the tech while never trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes about L Ron Hubbard. That's perfectly acceptable to me. I have no reason to start a thread nor do I get the feeling I should expose anything about their message. I met a lot of them over on the Scientology Forum. They're no problem to anybody.

Maybe some LRH Apologists just don't really know very much about L Ron Hubbard, having only recently left the Church where all their information was controlled and where they were lied to about L Ron Hubbard constantly.

For some others, maybe it's just a bad habit to lie to themselves and to others about L Ron Hubbard and it's a hard habit for them to break.

Maybe some LRH Apologists, knowingly and willingly, revise history so that they can generate or maintain book sales or blog visits or admiration particles or whatever else they find valuable and appealing about their present position.

The reason this thread is here is so no one ever forgets who L Ron Hubbard really was, and what Scientology really is, and so no one ever gets the wool pulled over their eyes again regarding L Ron Hubbard and his Church of Scientology.
 
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The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
Attack ATTack ATTACK

In early days the AMA attached scn/dn. A pattern they have used often.
There is data on this out there. Not being a critic, or for that matter
super organised, can't quote much on URLs I read. Here is one anyway.(snipped url)

I am assuming that you meant "the AMA attacked scn/dn"... well, good for them! Too bad they failed, eh? :no:
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
I knew the Knights, and a couple of other names on that list of so called enemies are vaguely familiar.

To my knowledge they were scientologists, not high profile organizations out to hurt LRH. If anything these people loved Ron and I think it would have been devastating to find themselves written up by Ron in this manner.

I know that at sometime, some place one of these would have been written up about my Father. That is how LRH operated.Whether it still exists is another matter, but there must have been one at one time.

At one time, there would have been one for my Grand mother also and she was never a scientologist, she just didn't like the way LRH and scientology had divided up her family.

That is scientology ethics for you.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sharing insights is not "doing nothing." Are you going to campaign against all the people who share insights all over the world to stop writing and start "doing something" -- with you as the judge of what qualify as "something"?

I guess I misworded thoughts in the above post. I meant doing something about Scientology and not about other ex-members who try to do something about Scientology in their own ways.
It's not nice to see when one ex goes after another ex. And vice versa.

As for me, I'm done with the subject. There is no effort on my part to reform unreformable or to correct people's "erroneous beliefs".

Sometimes I enjoy the show, sometimes I see good actors picking at each other, and I don't like those parts of the play. :no:
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
Bullshit! I didn't judge you!

Here is my judgement: DO something.

You talk much, and do nothing.

You spoke about Marty & Mike a lot. - Have YOU put your own chest under CoS bullets?

You speak about Steve Hall's failures now? - How long ago did you say your true name (to speak of anything)?

This IS my judgement. Allen! Come on! Get it straight! Those guys make WAY more than you do here (talking and pointing)


This is a discussion board. People discuss things, specifically Scn. If you are not interested in the discussion, don't read the thread. But please don't ask people to stop communicating. It's what we do here.
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
LRH Apologists overlook the writings of LRH and see only the actions of David Miscavige. And try to get others to do the same through many different tactics.

While at the same time, even though L Ron Hubbard is dead, they still listen to his lectures, quote his writing, and act out his technology and policy.

LRH Apologists just want you to think that LRH is dead and that's all there is to it, and that you are stupid if you think that anyone follows the fair game policies of a dead man, or that the man when he was alive ever really meant what he wrote or said, or forced others to take him seriously - or else.

LRH Apologists revise history and keep people in the dark. And this keeps a lot of people dramatizing the crimogenic materials of Scientology.

There are people who are not LRH Apologists, who recognize the sickness of L Ron Hubbard, and who take what they want of the tech while never trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes about L Ron Hubbard. That's perfectly acceptable to me. I have no reason to start a thread nor do I get the feeling I should expose anything about their message. I met a lot of them over on the Scientology Forum. They're no problem to anybody.

Maybe some LRH Apologists just don't really know very much about L Ron Hubbard, having only recently left the Church where all their information was controlled and where they were lied to about L Ron Hubbard constantly.

For some others, maybe it's just a bad habit to lie to themselves and to others about L Ron Hubbard and it's a hard habit for them to break.

Maybe some LRH Apologists, knowingly and willingly, revise history so that they can generate or maintain book sales or blog visits or admiration particles or whatever else they find valuable and appealing about their present position.

The reason this thread is here is so no one ever forgets who L Ron Hubbard really was, and what Scientology really is, and so no one ever gets the wool pulled over their eyes again regarding L Ron Hubbard and his Church of Scientology.

If I think about the "LRH Apoligists" I am thinking about making money. Hubbard created Scientology to earn money. IMO there is lots of money potential in the Hubbard books, courses etc.

I didn't want to take the "LRH Apoligist" for granted, IMO they directly believe in Scientology and in the things Hubbard wrote. But Hubbard wrote lots of things and they decide after their opinion which things they need. It is still a trap for poor people.

"MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY."

- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972, MS OEC 384
 

Veda

Sponsor
In early days the AMA attached scn/dn. A pattern they have used often.

There is data on this out there. Not being a critic, or for that matter
super organised, can't quote much on URLs I read. Here is one anyway.

http://scientologyexposed.50megs.com/paranoia.html

That's not much of a link. It addresses Scientology's paranoia, and quotes Omar Garrison to illustrate that paranoia.

I assume that you were looking for a link to the book by Omar Garrison from 1974, when he was working for the Scientology cult. This book is loaded with mis-information, and was, ultimately, an embarrassment to Garrison. Not that that would stop Scientologists from quoting it or linking to it.

Scroll down to the bottom of this post and read some background information, giving by Hubbard to Scientologists, concerning the "attack":

From 'Keeping Scientology Working', 7 February, 1965:

"We're not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn't something cute to do for lack of something better.

"The whole agonized future of this planet, every Man, Woman, and Child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology :unsure::ohmy::yes:

"This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance :spacecraft:. [See 'Implantology'] Remember, this is our first chance in all the endless trillions of years of the past . Don't muff it now because it seems unpleasant or unsocial to do Seven [Hammering out of existence incorrect technology], Eight..."


Just prior to the appearance of 'KSW', was published the piece 'My Philosophy', in which L. Ron Hubbard told Scientologists:

"Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to the hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost nonexistent future. My service record stated: 'This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies whatsoever', but also stated, 'permanently disabled physically'.

"And so there came a further blow. I was abandoned by family and friends :violin: as a supposedly hopeless cripple and probable burden on them for the rest of my days."


And, on 7 March 1965, exactly one month after the appearance of 'KSW' was published 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game Law':

"A Suppressive person or group becomes 'fair game'.

"By Fair Game is meant, without rights for self, possessions or position, and no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a Suppressive Person or group...

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] 1st degree murder, arson, disintegration of persons or belongings not [emphasis added] guilty of suppressive acts.

"[Suppressive Persons] place themselves beyond any consideration for their feelings :nazi:or well being...

"The homes, property, places, and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppressive Scientology... are all beyond any protection."


And thus began the (post 1965) era of "modern Scientology," in which L. Ron Hubbard began in earnest to apply the basics of this booklet http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg on his own followers.

Strangely enough, some people regard this period as "the good old days," when the 'Scientological Onion' http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105 was robust, and before the final monument building stage of Scientology commenced - per L. Ron Hubbard's confidential instructions - under its current leader David Miscavige. http://deadagenting.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/hubbard-and-miscavige-2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI


Hubbard, from the 1969 confidential issue, 'Intelligence Actions, Covert Intelligence Data Collection':

"The objective of the enemy is to discredit...

"Their first blast was the San Francisco papers, Sept. 1950, quoting the publisher (of Book One) Ceppos being critical of me (he was a communist) followed by the LA papers, pushed then by Sara Komkovadamanov (alias Northrup) 'divorce' actions, followed by attempted kidnapping of myself. Other details were pushed into it including murder of four and so on. This was a full complete covert operation. At the back of it was Miles Hollister (psychology student), Sara Komkovadamanov (housekeeper at the place nuclear physicists stayed near Cal tech), Gene Benton and his wife -President of the Young Communists League...

"This was a full war against Dianetics."


It's also interesting to read Hubbard's letters to the FBI from 1950 through 1955. Hubbard was finally placed in the "appears mental" category. Here are a few of the many letters from Hubbard: http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/fbifiles/hubbard-19550729.html
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It's also interesting to read Hubbard's letters to the FBI from 1950 through 1955. Hubbard was finally placed in the "appears mental" category.
I've seen those quotes many times, but hadn't realized till I looked him up now that Miles Hollister was Sara Northrup's later husband:


"Sara Elizabeth Bruce Northrup Hollister (born April 8, 1924 at Pasadena, California; died December 19, 1997 at Hadley, Massachusetts[1]) was the second wife of L. Ron Hubbard, from 1946 to 1951, and wife of Miles Hollister from 1951 to her death in 1997.[2] She had one daughter, Alexis Valerie, fathered by Hubbard in 1948.

Sara Northrup was a major figure in the Pasadena branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), a society founded by the English occultist Aleister Crowley. From 1941 to 1945 she had a turbulent relationship with Jack Parsons, the head of the Pasadena OTO, who was married to her sister Helen. Although she was a committed member of the OTO, to whom she was known as "Soror [Sister] Cassap", she acquired a reputation for disruptiveness that prompted Crowley to denounce her as a "vampire".

She began a relationship with L. Ron Hubbard, whom she met through the OTO, in 1945. It led to the couple eloping with a substantial amount of Jack Parsons' life savings and marrying bigamously a year later while Hubbard was still married to his first wife Margaret. Sara played a significant role in the development of Dianetics, Hubbard's "modern science of mental health", between 1948 and 1951, during which time she was Hubbard's personal auditor and one of the seven members of the Dianetics Foundation's Board of Directors, alongside Hubbard himself. However, their marriage broke up in extremely acrimonious circumstances amid accusations of kidnapping and Communist plots, which prompted lurid headlines in the Los Angeles newspapers. She subsequently married one of Hubbard's former employees, Miles Hollister, and moved to Hawaii and later Massachusetts."

Hilarious that Ron calls her the 'housekeeper' at Parson's house, where Parsons, who was married to her sister, had her as a girlfriend till Ron ran off with her.

Yeah; that was some scary conspiracy against you Ronny Boy :)

Zinj
 
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