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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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lkwdblds

Crusader
Wow, Purple Haze, its been a long time since you posted!

Very Well Done, Roger. I especially like your use of the word reconceptualize.:goodposting:

Good to see a post from you Purple Haze, it has been months since you last posted. I hope you continue to post here! As you can see, we have some very hot and meaningful topics going on and what you see here today is typical and not a special case.
Lakey
 
More homeowners turn to shorter loan terms

We are refinancing for the second time in two years. We're looking at 3.8% down from our current 4.9%. Even with points and other fees, this is a huge savings.

This is a good time to refi or to buy.

If you need an honest loan broker for a mortgage, PM me, I'll hook you up.


A 15-Year Mortgage Isn't for Everyone
by Amy Hoak
Monday, August 30, 2010


More homeowners turn to shorter loan terms

A growing number of homeowners are choosing to pay down their mortgages at a faster rate -- even if it means a substantial jump in their monthly payments.

From January through June, 26% of homeowners who refinanced chose a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage, according to data from CoreLogic, a provider of financial, property and consumer information. During all of 2009, 18.5% of borrowers who refinanced opted for a 15-year term. About 9.4% did so in 2007.


What's prompting the shift to shorter loans? Historically low interest rates for fixed-rate mortgages.

Homeowners are doing the math and realizing that rates have fallen enough so the increase in payment between a new 15-year mortgage and their current loan is no longer unbearable for their budgets, said Bob Walters, chief economist at online lender Quicken Loans.

The average rate on a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage was 3.86% for the week ending Aug. 26, according to Freddie Mac's weekly survey of conforming mortgage rates.

A Change in Thinking

The financial situation of the people capable of refinancing today is a factor in the shift, Walters said. These people typically are homeowners with the best credit and the most equity -- and, therefore, most suited for a shorter-term loan.

[See a Good Time to Double Down on Your Home?]

But there might be some psychology at work. "We're seeing a different view on debt than maybe we've seen in the past," he said. Today, homeowners are saying, "I really want to pay this off. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the payment and work toward paying this down."

Also, the average rate on a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage is below 4% right now, and having a mortgage rate that starts with a "3" is attractive for people who can afford it, said Leif Thomsen, chief executive of Mortgage Master, a privately owned lender.

It also acts as somewhat of a forced savings account for homeowners, he said, given that the higher payments help pay down the principal at a quicker clip.

This is a huge shift in borrower thinking. "There was a drive a couple of years ago to take out the biggest mortgage that you could and use all of the money you would have otherwise had in the house and put it into stocks and bonds -- to think of your house and mortgage as part of your entire investment portfolio," said Amy Crews Cutts, deputy chief economist for Freddie Mac.

"That worked for people who do investment finance for a living and are good at managing accounts," she said. "But for the average person, debt is a drag on their psyche as well as their overall budget."

Many Americans have reverted to the goal of paying off their house and getting rid of their mortgage, Cutts said.

Doing the Math

Refinancing into a shorter-term mortgage isn't a strategy for everyone, however.

Choosing a shorter term usually means you'll get a better rate -- and you'll pay much less interest over the life of the loan -- but a shorter timeframe ramps up monthly mortgage payments.

[See How to Overcome Refinancing Hurdles]

For example, with a 4.5% interest rate on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage of $200,000, you would have a monthly payment of $1,015, including principal and interest, Cutts said. The monthly payment jumps to about $1,480 with a 4% interest rate on a 15-year fixed-rate loan.

Of course, if the refinancing borrower's current 30-year loan has a higher rate, the difference between the monthly payments could be less. Still, you should count on some increase in monthly payments.

In general, Walters said, those who choose 15-year fixed-rate mortgages are older and have more equity and less debt than other folks. They also earn higher incomes and don't have some of the added expenses that younger homeowners typically do.

"People who are taking these loans are financially stable and can afford the payments, but at the same time are planning on staying in their home for an extended period of time," Thomsen said.

Walters said homeowners shouldn't take on a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage unless they have substantial savings, including at least a year's worth of living expenses in liquid accounts.

Also, he recommends having a debt-to-income ratio below 35%. So if you have a gross salary of $5,700 per month, for instance, your monthly debt -- including any mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, homeowners-association dues as well as auto and student loans and credit-card debt -- would have to be a max of $1,995 to get a 35% ratio.

Make That Extra Payment

Borrowers who don't meet those standards, or are worried about future loss of income, might be better served taking a longer-term mortgage but making extra payments to the principal to pay off the loan faster, Walters said.

For instance, if you refinance a $200,000 mortgage into a 30-year loan with a 4.5% rate, and then apply $100 of the savings to the principal payment each month, you'd save $31,700 in interest over the life of the loan, Cutts said. And you would pay off the mortgage in 25 years, instead of 30, she said.

What's more, you would have the flexibility of not paying that $100 in months when money gets tight. "Maybe today you're feeling flush with money. Maybe you're worried in the future that income might change," Cutts said. With a 30-year mortgage, you have more flexibility. "Shortening to 15 years is a pretty big bump in payment."

Amy Hoak is a MarketWatch reporter based in Chicago.
 
THEN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AH5J2zQHqc

NOW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIMOskQkSEQ

[Bruno Mars]
I wanna be a billionaire so fricking bad
Buy all of the things I never had
Uh, I wanna be on the cover of Forbes magazine
Smiling next to Oprah and the Queen

[Chorus]
Oh every time I close my eyes
I see my name in shining lights
A different city every night oh
I swear the world better prepare
For when I'm a billionaire

[Travis "Travie" McCoy]
Yeah I would have a show like Oprah
I would be the host of, everyday Christmas
Give Travie a wish list
I'd probably pull an Angelina and Brad Pitt
And adopt a bunch of babies that ain't never had sh-t
Give away a few Mercedes like here lady have this
And last but not least grant somebody their last wish
Its been a couple months since I've single so
You can call me Travie Claus minus the Ho Ho
Get it, hehe, I'd probably visit where Katrina hit
And damn sure do a lot more than FEMA did
Yeah can't forget about me stupid
Everywhere I go Imma have my own theme music
Oh every time I close my eyes
I see my name in shining lights
A different city every night oh
I swear the world better prepare
For when I'm a billionaire
Oh oooh oh oooh for when I'm a Billionaire
Oh oooh oh oooh for when I'm a Billionaire

[Travis "Travie" McCoy]
I'll be playing basketball with the President
Dunking on his delegates
Then I'll compliment him on his political etiquette
Toss a couple milli in the air just for the heck of it
But keep the fives, twentys (?) completely separate
And yeah I'll be in a whole new tax bracket
We in recession but let me take a crack at it
I'll probably take whatevers left and just split it up
So everybody that I love can have a couple bucks
And not a single tummy around me would know what hungry was
Eating good sleeping soundly
I know we all have a similar dream
Go in your pocket pull out your wallet
And put it in the air and sing

[Bruno Mars]
I wanna be a billionaire so fricking bad
Buy all of the things I never had
Uh, I wanna be on the cover of Forbes magazine
Smiling next to Oprah and the Queen
[Chorus]
I wanna be a billionaire so frickin bad!
 
for the Tea party readers

August 28, 2010
The Billionaires Bankrolling the Tea Party

By FRANK RICH

ANOTHER weekend, another grass-roots demonstration starring Real Americans who are mad as hell and want to take back their country from you-know-who. Last Sunday the site was Lower Manhattan, where they jeered the “ground zero mosque.” This weekend, the scene shifted to Washington, where the avatars of oppressed white Tea Party America, Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, were slated to “reclaim the civil rights movement” (Beck’s words) on the same spot where the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. had his dream exactly 47 years earlier.

Vive la révolution!

There’s just one element missing from these snapshots of America’s ostensibly spontaneous and leaderless populist uprising: the sugar daddies who are bankrolling it, and have been doing so since well before the “death panel” warm-up acts of last summer. Three heavy hitters rule. You’ve heard of one of them, Rupert Murdoch. The other two, the brothers David and Charles Koch, are even richer, with a combined wealth exceeded only by that of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett among Americans. But even those carrying the Kochs’ banner may not know who these brothers are.

Their self-interested and at times radical agendas, like Murdoch’s, go well beyond, and sometimes counter to, the interests of those who serve as spear carriers in the political pageants hawked on Fox News. The country will be in for quite a ride should these potentates gain power, and given the recession-battered electorate’s unchecked anger and the Obama White House’s unfocused political strategy, they might.

All three tycoons are the latest incarnation of what the historian Kim Phillips-Fein labeled “Invisible Hands” in her prescient 2009 book of that title: those corporate players who have financed the far right ever since the du Pont brothers spawned the American Liberty League in 1934 to bring down F.D.R. You can draw a straight line from the Liberty League’s crusade against the New Deal “socialism” of Social Security, the Securities and Exchange Commission and child labor laws to the John Birch Society-Barry Goldwater assault on J.F.K. and Medicare to the Koch-Murdoch-backed juggernaut against our “socialist” president.

Only the fat cats change — not their methods and not their pet bugaboos (taxes, corporate regulation, organized labor, and government “handouts” to the poor, unemployed, ill and elderly). Even the sources of their fortunes remain fairly constant. Koch Industries began with oil in the 1930s and now also spews an array of industrial products, from Dixie cups to Lycra, not unlike DuPont’s portfolio of paint and plastics. Sometimes the biological DNA persists as well. The Koch brothers’ father, Fred, was among the select group chosen to serve on the Birch Society’s top governing body. In a recorded 1963 speech that survives in a University of Michigan archive, he can be heard warning of “a takeover” of America in which Communists would “infiltrate the highest offices of government in the U.S. until the president is a Communist, unknown to the rest of us.” That rant could be delivered as is at any Tea Party rally today.

Last week the Kochs were shoved unwillingly into the spotlight by the most comprehensive journalistic portrait of them yet, written by Jane Mayer of The New Yorker. Her article caused a stir among those in Manhattan’s liberal elite who didn’t know that David Koch, widely celebrated for his cultural philanthropy, is not merely another rich conservative Republican but the founder of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation, which, as Mayer writes with some understatement, “has worked closely with the Tea Party since the movement’s inception.” To New Yorkers who associate the David H. Koch Theater at Lincoln Center with the New York City Ballet, it’s startling to learn that the Texas branch of that foundation’s political arm, known simply as Americans for Prosperity, gave its Blogger of the Year Award to an activist who had called President Obama “cokehead in chief.”

The other major sponsor of the Tea Party movement is Dick Armey’s FreedomWorks, which, like Americans for Prosperity, is promoting events in Washington this weekend. Under its original name, Citizens for a Sound Economy, FreedomWorks received $12 million of its own from Koch family foundations. Using tax records, Mayer found that Koch-controlled foundations gave out $196 million from 1998 to 2008, much of it to conservative causes and institutions. That figure doesn’t include $50 million in Koch Industries lobbying and $4.8 million in campaign contributions by its political action committee, putting it first among energy company peers like Exxon Mobil and Chevron. Since tax law permits anonymous personal donations to nonprofit political groups, these figures may understate the case. The Kochs surely match the in-kind donations the Tea Party receives in free promotion 24/7 from Murdoch’s Fox News, where both Beck and Palin are on the payroll.

The New Yorker article stirred up the right, too. Some of Mayer’s blogging detractors unwittingly upheld the premise of her article (titled “Covert Operations”) by conceding that they have been Koch grantees. None of them found any factual errors in her 10,000 words. Many of them tried to change the subject to George Soros, the billionaire backer of liberal causes. But Soros is a publicity hound who is transparent about where he shovels his money. And like many liberals — selflessly or foolishly, depending on your point of view — he supports causes that are unrelated to his business interests and that, if anything, raise his taxes.

This is hardly true of the Kochs. When David Koch ran to the right of Reagan as vice president on the 1980 Libertarian ticket (it polled 1 percent), his campaign called for the abolition not just of Social Security, federal regulatory agencies and welfare but also of the F.B.I., the C.I.A., and public schools — in other words, any government enterprise that would either inhibit his business profits or increase his taxes. He hasn’t changed. As Mayer details, Koch-supported lobbyists, foundations and political operatives are at the center of climate-science denial — a cause that forestalls threats to Koch Industries’ vast fossil fuel business. While Koch foundations donate to cancer hospitals like Memorial Sloan-Kettering in New York, Koch Industries has been lobbying to stop the Environmental Protection Agency from classifying another product important to its bottom line, formaldehyde, as a “known carcinogen” in humans (which it is).

Tea Partiers may share the Kochs’ detestation of taxes, big government and Obama. But there’s a difference between mainstream conservatism and a fringe agenda that tilts completely toward big business, whether on Wall Street or in the Gulf of Mexico, while dismantling fundamental government safety nets designed to protect the unemployed, public health, workplace safety and the subsistence of the elderly.

Yet inexorably the Koch agenda is morphing into the G.O.P. agenda, as articulated by current Republican members of Congress, including the putative next speaker of the House, John Boehner, and Tea Party Senate candidates like Rand Paul, Sharron Angle, and the new kid on the block, Alaska’s anti-Medicaid, anti-unemployment insurance Palin protégé, Joe Miller. Their program opposes a federal deficit, but has no objection to running up trillions in red ink in tax cuts to corporations and the superrich; apologizes to corporate malefactors like BP and derides money put in escrow for oil spill victims as a “slush fund”; opposes the extension of unemployment benefits; and calls for a freeze on federal regulations in an era when abuses in the oil, financial, mining, pharmaceutical and even egg industries (among others) have been outrageous.

The Koch brothers must be laughing all the way to the bank knowing that working Americans are aiding and abetting their selfish interests. And surely Murdoch is snickering at those protesting the “ground zero mosque.” Last week on “Fox and Friends,” the Bush administration flacks Dan Senor and Dana Perino attacked a supposedly terrorism-tainted Saudi prince whose foundation might contribute to the Islamic center. But as “The Daily Show” keeps pointing out, these Fox bloviators never acknowledge that the evil prince they’re bashing, Walid bin Talal, is not only the biggest non-Murdoch shareholder in Fox News’s parent company (he owns 7 percent of News Corporation) and the recipient of Murdoch mammoth investments in Saudi Arabia but also the subject of lionization elsewhere on Fox.

No less a Murdoch factotum than Neil Cavuto slobbered over bin Talal in a Fox Business Channel interview as recently as January, with nary a question about his supposed terrorist ties. Instead, bin Talal praised Obama’s stance on terrorism and even endorsed the Democrats’ goal of universal health insurance. Do any of the Fox-watching protestors at the “ground zero mosque” know that Fox’s profits are flowing to a Obama-sympathizing Saudi billionaire in bed with Murdoch? As Jon Stewart summed it up, the protestors who want “to cut off funding to the ‘terror mosque’ ” are aiding that funding by watching Fox and enhancing bin Talal’s News Corp. holdings.

When wolves of Murdoch’s ingenuity and the Kochs’ stealth have been at the door of our democracy in the past, Democrats have fought back fiercely. Franklin Roosevelt’s triumphant 1936 re-election campaign pummeled the Liberty League as a Republican ally eager to “squeeze the worker dry in his old age and cast him like an orange rind into the refuse pail.” When John Kennedy’s patriotism was assailed by Birchers calling for impeachment, he gave a major speech denouncing their “crusades of suspicion.”

And Obama? So far, sadly, this question answers itself.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
A comment on Roger's critique

Lakey,

This above and the following one referring to it . . . .

One can get pretty tangled up doing a lot of "think about" type stuff.

Duplication of another's communication is simple :yes:

The deal is, you duplicate his communication . . . you don't have to duplicate what he is communicating about. :no: You can if you choose; but then you are getting into the realm of recreating it at your location/position in the scheme of things or otherwise attempting to be the other person and experience his experience versus allowing the originator to view his/her own experiential existence and to "admire and retire" what is unwanted.

All you have to do is be a terminal, a safe terminal, and duplicate the truth that the originator is viewing their unwanted experiences and revivifying them and as-issing them . . . it's in their universe that it is happening. That's what to duplicate, and the fact that they are changing their condition of existence in the manner they choose.

You don't have to experience or "duplicate" the original event that is theirs that they are communicating about . . . though you can if you choose to experience it as your own; for that would be "perfect duplication" . . . but then you'd have to duplicate it as them at their location :duh: Why? :duh:

Yes the culture has the saying "misery loves company" . . . but how aberrated or aberrating is that!

There's all sorts of levels at which one can relate to others and communicate with them . . . you simply have to span the range of the mood or reality scales to observe the different ways it can be done. At the very top, one can reach to another and fully perceive their condition, take full omni-responsibility for it, and have them experience as-is the condition and have it blown. (I posted some time ago on another thread my doing this with LRH vis a vis his stuck MWH's, also when I and others processed the victims of 9/11 to relieve them of their shock and "engram.")

But even at this level of comm and duplication, the truth being duplicated is that the experience is theirs, you don't have to suffer it too; though you can perfectly duplicate it at a knowingness/perception level, not at a suffering it level.

The mechanics behind all this is contained the full and correct definition of "truth," some elements of which are correct who, ownership, location, event, etc.

Raffo, I read all your posts and enjoyed them. I have it on my list of too many things to do to make comment.

Your and other posts of late on this thread has reminded me of a subject I researched back in the 1970's . . . on the issue of what I call "change-points." It's to do with the fact that change occurs in the game, either our change or from/by others.

The key to it is that these are occasions where one has to reconceptualize our futures to be as we choose our futures to be :yes:

These are occasions wherein, if we are wise, we do not hang up with (some inappropriate or misaligned or unworkable) aspects of the past being carried forward, but instead reconceptualize our futures to be in the condition we choose.

Rog

The technical analysis is excellent, I was hoping you would supply that and you did do a very nice job of explaining that.

I wanted to say a little bit more about how I approached Johnny's Chronicle #7. Johnny is an accomplished author and he was telling a personal story. The first 12 pages of this thread I was attempting to be an author and was telling my personal story. Since then, I have told many personnel anecdotes and have built up a history as one who likes to tell stories.

Also, there is the makings of a personal friendship with Johnny, through our association on this Apollo thread. When I initially read this story about Carolyn, knowing that he is going to publish this as Chapter 7 in a forthcoming book, I first approached the story as I would any other. I was not asked to proof read this story but he has asked to proof read some others things so I was reading for the following reasons:

#1 - My own personal enjoyment
#2 - As a proof reader and as a critic
#3 - As a friend

It was not until really getting into the story that I perceived a sort of call for a bit of help in the form of duplicating the story. The story is a blow by blow detailing of some very unpleasant things which he went through. I was not looking at this as if it were an auditing session but I was reading a story. I read it as I would read any novel or any good non fiction; my emotions went up and down, thoughts of how each of the persona in the story felt at the time were whirling through my head. He is a good writer, he has much experience in writing in this life and I am sure even more experience in earlier lives.

It was only after I was done reading that I realized he put the story out for a reason but I was not sure what the reason was. It just seemed to me that he was seeking some sort of help. I wrote my post #5488 as a first attempt to critique the story a bit plus offer some form of help. Johnny applauded my for #5488 and in his answer to it, he gave more data including those three paragraphs which I highlighted in blue. After I read those 3 paragraphs, then I knew more what he wanted so I wrote my post which you commented on.

So you see, I was not looking at an auditor to pc type of relationship but from the context of a friend reading another friend's personal non fiction story and doing it both to be entertained and to also critique his story. I did perceive he was requesting some sort of help and offered what I could and then he clarified what type of thing he was looking for in his 3 paragraphs in blue and so I updated #5488 to my last post.

Having initially read the story for entertainment and enlightenment only, I had run through the emotions portrayed in the story as a normal reader would. I clearly state in my second post that I read it exterior to the story and was reading the second time just to see best how I could comment to Johnny best to enable him to achieve whatever he was trying to achieve by having others duplicate his story.

Its that simple, he and I were not in any auditing session, formally or informally, I was simply complying to the best of my ability to duplicate his story and give him some feed back from an exterior point of view which he might be able to use. How he uses it is totally up to him.

I wanted to be filled in on the technical aspects of what was going on and I thank you for supplying the technical theory which is extremely helpful. I did not know for sure if you would give a technical reply and I wanted to get back to him quickly wih my reply so I just wrote what I felt from my heart. The carrier wave it is on is just a sincere effort to comply with a friend's request and duplicate his story and give him feed back on my reactioins to his story. I knew such a communication would not harm Johnny but would either be neutral, if I missed the mark, or it might possibly be of great help to him. I stand by what I wrote. If I had to wait for an appropriate technical analysis of my actions before I ever wrote anything, the Apollo thread never would have come into existence and we would not be having this dialogue.
Lakey
 
Last edited:
Orange County Is No Longer Nixon Country

Orange County Is No Longer Nixon Country

Monica Almeida/The New York Times

SANTA ANA, Calif. — Orange County has been a national symbol of conservatism for more than 50 years: birthplace of President Richard M. Nixon and home to John Wayne, a bastion for the John Birch Society, a land of orange groves and affluence, the region of California where Republican presidential candidates could always count on a friendly audience.

But this iconic county of 3.1 million people passed something of a milestone in June. The percentage of registered Republican voters dropped to 43 percent, the lowest level in 70 years.

It was the latest sign of the demographic, ethnic and political changes that are transforming the county and challenging long-held views of a region whose colorful — its detractors might suggest zany — reputation extends well beyond the borders of this state.

At the end of 2009, nearly 45 percent of the county’s residents spoke a language other than English at home, according to county officials. Whites now make up only 45 percent of the population; this county is teeming with Hispanics, as well as Vietnamese, Korean and Chinese families. Its percentage of foreign-born residents jumped to 30 percent in 2008 from 6 percent in 1970, and visits to some of its corners can feel like a trip to a foreign land.

The demographic changes that have swept the county reflect what is happening across the state and much of the nation. It has happened slowly but surely over the course of a generation, becoming increasingly apparent not only in a drive through the 34 cities that fill this sprawling 789-square-mile county south of Los Angeles, but also, most recently, in the results of a presidential election. In 2008, Barack Obama drew 48 percent of the vote here against Senator John McCain of Arizona. (By comparison, in 1980, Jimmy Carter received just 23 percent against Ronald Reagan, the conservative hero whose election as California governor in 1966 and 1970 was boosted in no small part by the affection for him here.)

“I was a city planner in San Diego in 1960 when Orange County was just orange groves and typecast as a conservative stronghold,” said Marshall Kaplan, the executive director of the Merage Foundations, which runs educational and other programs for recent immigrants here. “It isn’t anymore. I live in Irvine. My wife is Asian. In Irvine, I sometimes feel like I’m her affirmative action program.”

Manuel Gomez, the vice chancellor of student affairs at the University of California, Irvine, said the county where he was born 63 years ago is almost unrecognizable to him today. “With diversity comes more cultural voices and political voices,” he said. “And certainly better food.”

Orange County is not unique in being a reliable Republican region in California. But this county has always boasted of a zesty political brand: almost defiantly conservative, the anti-Los Angeles, a land of gated communities and great wealth that managed to produce a steady stream of colorful conservative figures, including the televangelist Robert H. Schuller and former Representative Robert K. Dornan — B-1 Bob, as he was known, for his advocacy of military projects. (In a sign of what was to come, Mr. Dornan lost the House seat in 1996 to a Democratic Latina, Loretta Sanchez).

With such world-famous attractions as Disneyland and Mr. Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral and enclaves like Laguna Beach and Balboa Island, Orange County is as much a symbol in California as it is nationally.

Indeed, to some measure, the extent of the county’s transformation may seem magnified simply because of the way people thought of it in the past. “The new Orange County is not a repudiation of the old,” said Kevin Starr, a California historian. “For all the attention paid the right-wingers there, they never really took up the whole place. They were just more mediagenic than everyone else.”

Still, by any measure, this is no longer Nixon’s Orange County.

Here in Santa Ana, a sign on a downtown furniture store the other day advertised a sale in Spanish only; nearly 95 percent of the enrollment in the public schools is Latino. The mayor of Irvine, Sukhee Kang, was born in Korea, making him the first Korean-American to run a major American city. “We have 35 languages spoken in our city,” Mr. Kang said.

A few miles away in Westminster — where Vietnamese immigrants began arriving about 30 years ago, earning the area the name Little Saigon — is a dazzling sea of Vietnamese characters on storefronts and billboards (including one for McDonald’s). “I’ve been here for 30 years,” said Kinh Tram, 59, as he sat in front of a two-story mall that was crowded with other Vietnamese immigrants. “When I first came here, most of these were open lots.”

There are pockets of deep poverty spread across a county long identified with suburban affluence and escape from urban Los Angeles. About 25 percent of residents here did not have health insurance at some point during 2009, according to a report released last week by the U.C.L.A. Center for Health Policy Research. Less than a mile from the entrance to Disneyland is a Latino enclave of low-income housing where trucks arrive every morning, with names like Yucatán Produce, to sell groceries and household goods to people who cannot afford a car to drive to the store.

Orange remains a Republican county, at least relatively: an influx of immigrants certainly does not equate to automatic Democratic gains, here or anywhere else across the country. Many Vietnamese immigrants are socially conservative and run for office as Republicans. Until the increased identification of the Republican Party with tough measures on immigration in recent years, Latino voters were also clearly in play for Republicans. Most elected officials in Orange County are Republicans.

But the political texture of this county, which is larger in population than Nevada or Iowa, is changing, and many officials say it is only a matter of time before many Republican officeholders get swept out with the tide.

While Republicans have been on a steady decline — in 1990, they made up 56 percent of the electorate — the percentage of independent voters, as in much of the state, soared to 20 percent this past June from 8.6 percent in 1990. President Obama’s strong showing here in 2008 continued a nearly 30-year pattern in which the vote for Democratic presidential candidates has steadily increased.

Mr. Tram, the Vietnamese immigrant in Westminster, said that he had voted for Mr. Obama and that he thought most of his Vietnamese friends had done the same. “The Republicans are for rich people,” he said.

A large reason for this transformation is immigration. But the changes also reflect how the regional economy has changed, with the shrinking of the aerospace industry, which supported the once dominant, mostly white middle-class community here. That has largely been taken over by service, tourism and high-tech jobs, the result being that this county is a contrast of the extremely wealthy and the lower middle class.

“It’s less of a middle-class suburb today,” said Michael M. Ruane, the director of the Orange County Community Indicators Project, which studies economic and demographic trends in the county. “You have areas of poverty and areas of great affluence and less of a middle.”

Even fans of the recent hit television series “The O.C.,” whose main characters were prosperous white residents of Newport Beach, got little hint of the diversity of the region. “The county is becoming more like California,” Mr. Ruane said. “The national image that it is an entirely conservative and entirely Republican county is wrong. Voter registration patterns and voting have shifted as a result of these demographic shifts.”

Kitty Bennett contributed research.
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
I Agree With Your Viewpoint

Really?

This is from DartSmohen:

"No one has EVER got rid of all the beings in their space. It is an impossibility to do so. All this self-delusion about being "all alone" is nothing more than mental masturbation. An excuse to relieve the poor mug of as much loot as you can. :omg:

"The clue can be found in two basic statements; it is engramic to force a being to be in a space they do not wish to be in. It is engramic to force a being out of a space they want to be in. :duh:

"Ok, so you drive a bring out of your space. Now they are upset. What have you created? a vacuum. In comes another. :ohmy:

"Now take this further. What happens if you have centres where this idiotic activity is going on, places like Asho's Flag etc. You drive a being out, you are just as likely to pick up someone else's upset being coming in, complete with their own "baggage" stirred up. :angry: :grouch:

"Did you ever wonder why so many people died on NOT's? Why people committed suicide on OT3 and NOTS ?, strokes ? heart attacks ? cancers ? :omg:

"How many people have been left penniless, their lives turned upside down, families broken up, all because of this insane and obscene dream ? :no:

"Do you think Hubbard didn't know what was going on ? Do you think that despite his own phobias that he knew deep down that it was never going to work, but what a great marketing tool. How much cash has been poured into the cult in the name of these pointless activities. (Let us not forget the well-intentioned FZ and RO). :confused2: :unsure:

"Try working WITH those beings around you, rather than against them. You might just be pleasantly surprised by the results. :happydance:"

I agree with your Viewpoint.

I do believe there were and are good OT levels before and after OT-3 and the NOTS craziness.

OT-2 has been spoken well of, usually.

Also LRH is still working on OT levels without (I assume) the encumbrances of the actual insanities of the LRH lifetime.

More to come later on this.

I'm quite busy and will be getting more so, so no time promises here.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Also LRH is still working on OT levels without (I assume) the encumbrances of the actual insanities of the LRH lifetime.

-snip-

This seems to the gist of yet another LRH cult. An early hint of something like that, some years ago, was Ken Urquhart with his statement that Hubbard "will be returning, 1,000 times more brilliant."

Here's another variation, from "ThetaOne": http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/653d60432147085c

Even inside organized Scientology, the cult of the disembodied Hubbard exists, although it's played down.

Right after Hubbard "causatively discarded the body," I heard a conversation (recorded) of someone with the ED of a Mission in Southern California. The ED was going on, glowingly, about "doing OT 15, then learning how to causatively discard the body, and going to be with Ron." This sort of talk soon after ceased in organized Scientology, I suspect after someone in organized Scientology saw the negative PR effect of Scientology becoming known as a suicide cult.

Ron, of course, was then "in the sky," and OT 65748 - or some impressively large number.

Zowie!

None of this is my cup of tea.
 
Last edited:
This seems to the gist of yet another LRH cult. An early hint of something like that, some years ago, was Ken Urquhart with his statement that Hubbard "will be returning, 10,000 times more brilliant."

Here's another variation, from "ThetaOne": http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/653d60432147085c

Even inside organized Scientology, the cult of the disembodied Hubbard exists, although it's played down.

Right after Hubbard "causatively discarded the body," I heard a conversation (recorded) of someone with the ED of a Mission in Southern California. The ED was going on, glowingly, about "doing OT 15, then learning how to causatively discard the body, and going to be with Ron." This sort of talk soon after ceased in organized Scientology, I suspect after someone in organized Scientology saw the negative PR effect of Scientology becoming known as a suicide cult.

Ron, of course, was then "in the sky," and OT 65748 - or some impressively large number.

Zowie!

None of this is my cup of tea.

actually it is more like a liter of absinthe
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
This seems to the gist of yet another LRH cult. An early hint of something like that, some years ago, was Ken Urquhart with his statement that Hubbard "will be returning, 1,000 times more brilliant."

Here's another variation, from "ThetaOne": http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/653d60432147085c

Even inside organized Scientology, the cult of the disembodied Hubbard exists, although it's played down.

Right after Hubbard "causatively discarded the body," I heard a conversation (recorded) of someone with the ED of a Mission in Southern California. The ED was going on, glowingly, about "doing OT 15, then learning how to causatively discard the body, and going to be with Ron." This sort of talk soon after ceased in organized Scientology, I suspect after someone in organized Scientology saw the negative PR effect of Scientology becoming known as a suicide cult.

Ron, of course, was then "in the sky," and OT 65748 - or some impressively large number.
Zowie!

None of this is my cup of tea.

I'm with you on this, Veda.:thumbsup:

Actually this astronomically high number fits with a lecture El Ron made where Hisself gave some formula for computing the number of “Dynamic Urges” of a Thetan. Humbug, as far as I’m concerned. :no:

A liter of absinthe indeed, Carmelo.:yes:

I looked into the man's eyes...I interacted with the man...El Ron's was always "certain" and El Ron could be very convincing.:coolwink:

Face:)
 

RogerB

Crusader
Originally Posted by RogerB View Post
Lakey,

This above and the following one referring to it . . . .

One can get pretty tangled up doing a lot of "think about" type stuff.

Duplication of another's communication is simple

The deal is, you duplicate his communication . . . you don't have to duplicate what he is communicating about. You can if you choose; but then you are getting into the realm of recreating it at your location/position in the scheme of things or otherwise attempting to be the other person and experience his experience versus allowing the originator to view his/her own experiential existence and to "admire and retire" what is unwanted.

All you have to do is be a terminal, a safe terminal, and duplicate the truth that the originator is viewing their unwanted experiences and revivifying them and as-issing them . . . it's in their universe that it is happening. That's what to duplicate, and the fact that they are changing their condition of existence in the manner they choose.

You don't have to experience or "duplicate" the original event that is theirs that they are communicating about . . . though you can if you choose to experience it as your own; for that would be "perfect duplication" . . . but then you'd have to duplicate it as them at their location Why?

Yes the culture has the saying "misery loves company" . . . but how aberrated or aberrating is that!

There's all sorts of levels at which one can relate to others and communicate with them . . . you simply have to span the range of the mood or reality scales to observe the different ways it can be done. At the very top, one can reach to another and fully perceive their condition, take full omni-responsibility for it, and have them experience as-is the condition and have it blown. (I posted some time ago on another thread my doing this with LRH vis a vis his stuck MWH's, also when I and others processed the victims of 9/11 to relieve them of their shock and "engram.")

But even at this level of comm and duplication, the truth being duplicated is that the experience is theirs, you don't have to suffer it too; though you can perfectly duplicate it at a knowingness/perception level, not at a suffering it level.

The mechanics behind all this is contained the full and correct definition of "truth," some elements of which are correct who, ownership, location, event, etc.

Raffo, I read all your posts and enjoyed them. I have it on my list of too many things to do to make comment.

Your and other posts of late on this thread has reminded me of a subject I researched back in the 1970's . . . on the issue of what I call "change-points." It's to do with the fact that change occurs in the game, either our change or from/by others.

The key to it is that these are occasions where one has to reconceptualize our futures to be as we choose our futures to be

These are occasions wherein, if we are wise, we do not hang up with (some inappropriate or misaligned or unworkable) aspects of the past being carried forward, but instead reconceptualize our futures to be in the condition we choose.

Rog

The technical analysis is excellent, I was hoping you would supply that and you did do a very nice job of explaining that.

I wanted to say a little bit more about how I approached Johnny's Chronicle #7. Johnny is an accomplished author and he was telling a personal story. The first 12 pages of this thread I was attempting to be an author and was telling my personal story. Since then, I have told many personnel anecdotes and have built up a history as one who likes to tell stories.

Also, there is the makings of a personal friendship with Johnny, through our association on this Apollo thread. When I initially read this story about Carolyn, knowing that he is going to publish this as Chapter 7 in a forthcoming book, I first approached the story as I would any other. I was not asked to proof read this story but he has asked to proof read some others things so I was reading the following reasons:

#1 - My own personal enjoyment
#2 - As a proof reader and as a critic
#3 - As a friend

It was not until really getting into the story that I perceived a sort of call for a bit of help in the form of duplicating the story. The story is a blow by blow detailing of some very unpleasant things which he went through. I was not looking at this as if it were an auditing session but I was reading a story. I read it as I would read any novel; my emotions went up and down, thoughts of how each of the persona in the story felt at the time were whirling through my head. He is a good writer, he has much experience in writing in this life and I am sure even more experience in earlier lives.

It was only after I was done reading that I realized he put the story out for a reason but I was not sure what the reason was. It just seemed to me that he was seeking some sort of help. I wrote my post #5561 as a first attempt to critique the story a bit plus offer some form of help. Johnny applauded my for #5561 and in his answer to it, he gave more data including those three paragraphs which I highlighted in blue. After I read those 3 paragraphs, then I knew more what he wanted so I wrote my post which you commented on.

So you see, I was not looking at an auditor to pc type of relationship but from the context of a friend reading another friend's personal non fiction story and doing it both to be entertained and to also critique his story. I did perceive he was requesting some sort of help and offered what I could and then he clarified what type of thing he was looking for in his 3 paragraphs in blue and so I updated #5561 to my last post.


Having initially read the story for entertainment and enlightenment only, I had run through the emotions portrayed in the story as a normal reader would. I clearly state in my second post that I read it exterior to the story and was reading the second time just to see best how I could comment to Johnny best to enable him to achieve whatever he was trying to achieve by having others duplicate his story.

Its that simple, he and I were not in any auditing session, formally or informally, I was simply complying to the best of my ability to duplicate his story and give him some feed back from an exterior point of view which he might be able to use. How he uses it is totally up to him.

I wanted to be filled in on the technical aspects of what was going on and I thank you for supplying the technical theory which is extremely helpful. I did not know for sure if you would give a technical reply and I wanted to get back to him quickly wih my reply so I just wrote what I felt from my heart. The carrier wave it is on is just a sincere effort to comply with a friend's request and duplicate his story and give him feed back on my reactioins to his story. I knew such a communication would not harm Johnny but would either be neutral, if I missed the mark, or it might possibly be of great help to him. I stand by what I wrote. If I had to wait for an appropriate technical analysis of my actions before I ever wrote anything, the Apollo thread never would have come into existence and we would not be having this dialogue.
Lakey


Lakey, Mate, you lost me with the above.

There's missing sequence, a wrong post number, and apparently comm between you and Raffo you refer to above that is not on this thread. (See the the part I highlight in blue, and also post #5561 is you ack'ing Purple; nothing to do with between you/Raffo/me) But no matter.

It's simple. I am making a specific tech comment on the issues you raised concerning the duplicating of another's condition versus duplicating their comm.

You see, the important thing that happens when a person communicates about something is that they are viewing it and, if needed, as-issing it. They are doing it . . . the listener doesn't have to do much except be present and receive and duplicate the comm.

It's also why solo-processing works. The person writes down in session onto the physical universe session notes paper what he is inspecting as-is while he is blowing it.

Re-read what it is of yours I commented on here:

Originally Posted by lkwdblds View Post
Truly a landmark remarkable post. Some of the key parts, I highlighted above in blue.

Comments on the first and second paragraph of Johnny's post which I highlighted in blue. This entire "Apollo '73" thread started as someone (namely me} having their mind saturated with harmful data which they could not fathom, understand or make sense of. I CLAIMED THAT I HAD A NEED TO DEBRIEF! What does "to debrief" mean but to lay out for other's inspection one's dirty laundry which he can not fully process by himself. It is put out there in full detail for others to assimilate, read, duplicate and make comments about. Speaking from first hand experience, when one's dirty laundry is layed out for inspectiion and one's peers read it, the originator does experience relief and does notice a diminishment of the intensity of the dirty laundry.

Johnny's post about Carolyn was difficult to duplicate and see what he was trying to say and why. I knew Johnny was looking for duplication and replies so I tried my best to dulicate him and supply a meaningful reply. In trying to duplicate him, I did not drop down in tone while reading his story. I did feel some negative emotions such as sympathy, I felt pity, I felt the helpless feeling of someone by nature very causitive being at effect where it seemed impossible for him to change an undesired outcome. As soon as I was done reading, none of these negatives stayed with me because I had remained exterior to his negative situation, viewing it as an outside observer trying to understand and assist the originator rather than through the eyes of being a person within the emotionally charged situation.

Comments on the 3rd paragraph highlighted in Blue. To duplicate, admire and retire negative data.....If the data is negative enough, it seems that using the assistance of others is an effective means for the originator to gain some relief from negative and harmful data. There is an old saying, one of those "everybody knows" sayings which though very crude may have some merit to it which may apply here. That saying is "Misery loves company". I do not know the full technical "why" explaining the efficacy of this bit of tech other than the point that "communication is a universal solvent.
OTHERS WHO ARE MORE EXTERIOIR TO THE SITUATION BEING WRITTTEN UP, MAY HAVE AN ABILITY TO AS-IS THINGS CONTAINED WITHIN THE WRITE UP BETTER THAN THE PERSON WHO DID THE WRITE UP. Thus the saying, "Misery loves company" may contain some truth and by putting one's negative data out before one's associates, ultimately one's ability to be able to duplicate, admire and retire his own negative data is significantly enhanced.

SUMMARY The duplication being done by associates who are much more exterior to the situatiion gives the originator of the situation some new viewpoints which are exterior to it as well and through these viewpoints the originator is able to achieve some additional ability to duplicate, admire and retire his negative data.

Lakey

It's your analysis as stated in this above that I am making a tech comment on. All the other stuff that went on, and what or which happened first etc., I have no clue about.

What is true, is that folks very often require someone to talk to, and to flow their communication to in order to be able to bring to view that which gets as-issed . . . but that is a whole other and different tech issue.

The routine human condition is that folks "sympathize" either believing it helps, or because they are in a condition such that they involuntarily suffer whatever those around them are suffering . . . but such sympathy isn't what is behind the action or phenomena of as-issing what the person is viewing. It as-isses because he is viewing it :D

Rog
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I spent an hour posting a reply to Roger and John Rafanello. My Sprint Evo shut down even though it has power left and I cannot retrieve my post in the reply box. Is there and automatically saved draft cache somewhere? I went back and spent an hour and forty five minutes retyping my post on my laptop over a Sprint Evo wi fi connection. I clicked on 'submit' and my pc froze for a while. Still no saved draft again. :nervous:

Apathetic at this point. I think that on a slower connection I have to click on preview post and THEN on submit to keep this from happening. It seems too much to process. I'm guessing there is no auto save for the reply or quick reply in case of a glitch?:bigcry:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I can only suggest that, in a circumstance like that, you type your 'reply' in a text editor and then copy/paste it into ESMB.

ESMB is a bit resource hoggish due to java etc., but, a text editor should be able to accept type and save with no problem.

Hate to say it, but, 'try again'; just, considering your experience, not *here*

Zinj
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
I'm on a snail-slow connection, with a crappy PC, and have managed to rescue a post or two by going back a couple of clicks, then copy the message and re-post it. Just a thought.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Thanks Zinj and Ogs. I will take a screenshot if I have to and save it to Paint or copy and save the whole deal to Notepad for now. I'm not familiar with what areas have more towers just that Sprint doesn't do well here. I have tried the going back a couple of pages clicking. Worked once or twice but this last time a complete freeze. Live and learn.:thumbsup:. .
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
On Carmello's post about Orange Co.

My parents moved us from L.A. to Fullerton in North Orange County in 1957 right after I graduated high school in L.A. (Hamilton High). Orange County was pretty sparsely populated, less than 1 millioin and was almost exclusively all white and very Christian. Republicans probably outnumbered Democrats at lear 70% ti 30%.

Disneyland opening in 1955 was probably the first crack in the folksy, white Christian society. At first all it did was bring in tons of visitors from out of state plus a lot of foreign visitors put many of the visitors from other states like it here are moved here and after a few years there was a perceivable difference.

I think the big breakthrough was when Fullerton was chosen to be the first state university in Orange County. The original name of the school was Orange County State College but it has morphed into being called California State University at Fullerton. To meet the criteria the state set for Fullerton to be home to such a school, the City of Fullerton had to meet certain standards of diversity. The presence of a Black population around Cal-State begin to be very perceptible. The athletic programs of Cal State Fullerton had many black athletes and Blacks immediately begin to populate Fullerton and the surrounding cities. The Blacks in Fullerton have never lived in any kind of ghetto but are randomly interspersed around all neighborhoods from lower middle class to super luxury. They have blended well into the community from their first appearance here in the 60's and there are really no black churches or clubs that I no of, Fullerton has always been race neutral, everyone is an equal citizen.

Large Asian communities started popping up here probably when Vienamese arrived from the Viet Nam war in cities such as Garden Grove. The hilsside and luxury areas of the Cities in the hills began to be around 1/2 Asian. Go to the University of California at Irvine, over half the people are Asian!

There always was a Mexican community here. It was not a ghetto but a bario. It was definitely lower middle class and mainly working class, blue collar and lower. That has changed now two. Latino's from many countries, not just Mexico abound and outnumber Whites in Northern Orange County and many of these people are upper middle class and upper class.

So where are the Whites, they moved down to South Country, near the beaches and San Diego County. Check out the city of Rancho Santa Margarita, it feels like you are in Denmark or Sweden. The same with many other South County Cities such as San Juan Capistrano, San Clemente, Dana Point, Lake Forest and places like that.

For the county as a whole so Diversified, the days of a solid Republican electorate are long gone.
Lakey
 

FoTi

Crusader
Thanks Zinj and Ogs. I will take a screenshot if I have to and save it to Paint or copy and save the whole deal to Notepad for now. I'm not familiar with what areas have more towers just that Sprint doesn't do well here. I have tried the going back a couple of pages clicking. Worked once or twice but this last time a complete freeze. Live and learn.:thumbsup:. .

How about trying to break the post up into sections and numbering them, but with the same title, so that we can follow them in the correct sequence in amongst all the other posts here.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
RogerB

Lakey,

-snip-
Your and other posts of late on this thread has reminded me of a subject I researched back in the 1970's . . . on the issue of what I call "change-points." It's to do with the fact that change occurs in the game, either our change or from/by others.

The key to it is that these are occasions where one has to reconceptualize our futures to be as we choose our futures to be

These are occasions wherein, if we are wise, we do not hang up with (some inappropriate or misaligned or unworkable) aspects of the past being carried forward, but instead reconceptualize our futures to be in the condition we choose.

Rog

Sounds like what happens at the end of revolutions. Things are re-thought out from bottom to top. Monarchs get abolished. Religion gets re-inspected. Politics are inverted. The calendar is redone and holidays renamed.

519px-Calendrier-republicain-debucourt2.jpg
 
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